What Does Holocaust Denial Really Mean?

by Daniel McGowan / February 17th, 2009

In April 2007 the European Union agreed to set jail sentences up to three years for those who deny or trivialize the Holocaust.¹ More recently, in response to the remarks of Bishop Richard Williamson, the Pope has proclaimed that Holocaust denial is “intolerable and altogether unacceptable.”

But what does Holocaust denial really mean? Begin with the word Holocaust. The Holocaust² (spelled with a capital H) refers to the killing of six million Jews by the Nazis during World War II. It is supposed to be the German’s “Final Solution” to the Jewish problem. Much of the systematic extermination was to have taken place in concentration camps by shooting, gassing, and burning alive innocent Jewish victims of the Third Reich.

People like Germar Rudolf, Ernst Zundel, and Bishop Williamson who do not believe this account and who dare to say so in public are reviled as bigots, anti-Semites, racists, and worse. Their alternate historical scenarios are not termed simply revisionist, but are demeaned as Holocaust denial. Rudolf and Zundel were shipped to Germany where they were tried, convicted, and sentenced to three and five years, respectively. Williamson may not be far behind.

Politicians deride Holocaust revisionist papers and conferences as “beyond the pale of international discourse and acceptable behavior.”³ Non-Zionist Jews who participate in such revisionism, like Rabbi Dovid Weiss of the Neturei Karta, are denounced as “self-haters” and are shunned and spat upon. Even Professor Norman Finkelstein, whose parents were both Holocaust survivors and who wrote the book, The Holocaust Industry, has been branded a Holocaust denier.

But putting aside the virile hate directed against those who question the veracity of the typical Holocaust narrative, what is it that these people believe and say at the risk of imprisonment and bodily harm? For most Holocaust revisionists or deniers if you prefer, their arguments boil down to three simple contentions:

1. Hitler’s “Final Solution” was intended to be ethnic cleansing, not extermination.
2. There were no homicidal gas chambers used by the Third Reich.
3. There were fewer than 6 million Jews killed of the 55 million who died in WWII.

Are these revisionist contentions so odious as to cause those who believe them to be reviled, beaten, and imprisoned? More importantly, is it possible that revisionist contentions are true, or even partially true, and that they are despised because they contradict the story of the Holocaust, a story which has been elevated to the level of a religion in hundreds of films, memorials, museums, and docu-dramas?

Is it sacrilegious to ask, “If Hitler was intent on extermination, how did Elie Wiesel, his father, and two of his sisters survive the worst period of incarceration at Auschwitz?” Wiesel claims that people were thrown alive into burning pits, yet even the Israeli-trained guides at Auschwitz refute this claim.

Is it really “beyond international discourse” to question the efficacy and the forensic evidence of homicidal gas chambers? If other myths, like making soap from human fat, have been dismissed as Allied war propaganda, why is it “unacceptable behavior” to ask if the gas chamber at Dachau was not reconstructed by the Americans because no other homicidal gas chamber could be found and used as evidence at the Nuremburg trials?

For more than fifty years Jewish scholars have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to document each Jewish victim of the Nazi Holocaust. The Nazis were German, obsessed with paperwork and recordkeeping. Yet only 3 million names have been collected and many of them died of natural causes. So why is it heresy to doubt that fewer than 6 million Jews were murdered in the Second World War?

“Holocaust Denial” might be no more eccentric or no more criminal than claiming the earth is flat, except that the Holocaust itself has been used as the sword and shield in the quest to build a Jewish state between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, where even today over half the population is not Jewish.

The Holocaust narrative allows Yad Vashem, the finest Holocaust museum in the world, to repeat the mantra of “Never Forget” while it sits on Arab lands stolen from Ein Karem and overlooking the unmarked graves of Palestinians massacred by Jewish terrorists at Deir Yassin. It allows Elie Wiesel to boast of having worked for these same terrorists (as a journalist, not a fighter) while refusing to acknowledge, let alone apologize for, the war crimes his employer committed. It makes Jews the ultimate victim no matter how they dispossess or dehumanize or ethnically cleanse indigenous Palestinian people.

The Holocaust story eliminates any comparison of Ketziot or Gaza to the concentration camps they indeed are. It memorializes the resistance of Jews in the ghettos of Europe while steadfastly denying any comparison with the resistance of Palestinians in Hebron and throughout the West Bank. It allows claims that this year’s Hanukah Massacre in Gaza, with a kill ratio of 100 to one, was a “proportionate response” to Palestinian resistance to unending occupation.

The Holocaust is used to silence critics of Israel in what the Jewish scholar, Marc Ellis, has called the ecumenical deal: you Christians look the other way while we bludgeon the Palestinians and build our Jewish state and we won’t remind you that Hitler was a good Catholic, a confirmed “soldier of Christ,” long before he was a bad Nazi.

The Holocaust narrative of systematic, industrialized extermination was an important neo-conservative tool to drive the United States into Iraq. The same neo-con ideologues, like Norman Podoretz, routinely compare Ahmadinejad to Hitler and Nazism with Islamofascism with the intent of driving us into Iran. The title of the recent Israeli conference at Yad Vashem made this crystal clear: “Holocaust Denial: Paving the Way to Genocide.”

“Remember the Holocaust” will be the battle cry of the next great clash of good (Judeo/Christian values) and evil (radical Islamic aggression) and those who question it must be demonized if not burned at the stake.

Associated Press, “EU approves criminal measures against Holocaust denial,” Haaretz, 19 April 2007. [↩]
Holocaust. Dictionary.com. The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2005. [↩]
Statements of Senator Hillary Clinton. [↩]

Daniel McGowan is a Professor Emeritus at Hobart and William Smith Colleges. Because of admonishment by the administration, it is hereby stated that the above remarks are solely those of the author. Hobart and William Smith Colleges neither condone nor condemn these opinions. Furthermore, the author has been instructed to use his personal email address of mcgowandaniel@yahoo.com and not his college email at mcgowan@hws.edu for those wishing to contact him with comments or criticisms. Read other articles by Daniel, or visit Daniel's website.

This article was posted on Tuesday, February 17th, 2009 at 9:00am and is filed under Freedom of Speech, History, Propaganda.

134 comments on this article so far ...

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bozh said on February 17th, 2009 at 11:16am #

so, these people are not denying that 3mn people of the cult have perished in KZ lagers. they have the right to say that.

not to blame the victims, the euro-asians with a cult, have been offered a home also in madagascar.
but their leaders refused to accept the offer; offer self, tho, being immoral.

and not to blame solely germans, the cult cld not be tolerated. US had not accepted koresh’s cult. small number of deaths were due to the fact that he had only hundred or os followers.

the nonjewish cult numbered mns and thus cld be considered enemy of many states; most of all against pals and arabs.
their first allegience was to a yet-to-be state in palestine.

even UK in ’30s, refused to accept any of the ‘jews’. the reason, as far as i know, had not been given but the cultishness of these people may have been the biggest cause for it.

and euro-asians had a place to stay; they did not have one reason or excuse to leave europe. today there may be a mn ‘jews’ in europe.
nobody is stopping them from leaving.

i myself am quite perturbed over this cult whom i consider my enemy and who wld not hesitate to slay most of us if they had a chance. thnx
adam syed said on February 17th, 2009 at 11:25am #

Perhaps the best article I’ve ever read on the Holocaust.

Until I read this, the only Jewish revisionist I’d heard of was David Cole. I’ll have to now do a google on Dovid Weiss.
Vlado said on February 17th, 2009 at 12:13pm #

Thank you, Mr McGowan. There is still hope for truth, when people like you speak out.
First of all, I am not one of those who deny that millions of Jews suffered intolerably and died during World War II. But I’m one of the majority (hopefully) who are sick and tired of spinning historical facts into a bloated, manipulatively used story. And yes, I’m totally against the policies of the Israel state which simply does not treat Palestinians as human beings.
(I’m in Eastern Europe, and have no motivation to be biased on this matter.)
David said on February 17th, 2009 at 12:45pm #

Those laws you despise that ban Holocaust denial are not Jewish or Israeli or American laws, they are German and French and European laws, because they know the horrible things that happened to not only approx. 6 million Jews, but just as many Gypsies, homosexuals, Christians, Slavs, etc. Don’t forget what the Rev. Martin Niemoller said.

This is not a defense of Israel’s actions, but we are talking apples and oranges. The millions who were systematically discriminated against, arrested, robbed, tortured, worked to death and killed is one thing. In Gaza they say up to 1500 were killed in a military campaign whose purpose was the defeat of Hamas, not the destruction of a people. By your narrative, Israel seeks to entirely colonize and ethnic cleanse the Palestinians to create a greater Israel. And you say the U.S. supports the mighty mechanized monster Israelis with billions in arms and aid…yet if genocide was their goal shouldn’t they have already easily entirely ethnically cleansed the defenseless Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. After all Israel is efficient, ruthless and cunning, why are they taking so long to complete a genocide if this is their true goal?

You can talk all day about Podhoretz but at the end of the day it was the far right Christian leaders of the U.S.: Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld that started the war in Iraq. Meanwhile 78% of American Jews voted for Obama, even more voted for Gore against Bush and a slightly smaller percentage supported Kerry against Bush.
Michael Kenny said on February 17th, 2009 at 12:50pm #

It’s perfectly true to say that the original nazi plan was to simply get rid of the Jews out of Germany, not kill them. That wish was in no way limited to the nazis in Germany, nor was it limited to Germany in Europe. If the only thing Hitler ever did was to get rid, peacefully, of the unintegrated Jews out of Europe, there would be statutes in his honour all over this great continent! But he failed, and by a series of small steps, he ended up gassing people by the millions. That is the real, and largely overlooked, lesson of the Holocaust: you cannot simply “get rid” of people. If you are not prepared to murder them, you have to live with them.

Like Europeans with the Jews, I’m sure that many Israelis would love to see the Palestinians go “somewhere else”, but, in the real world, if Israel is not prepared to open gas chambers in the Negev, then it is going to have to find a modus vivendi with them.
John S. Hatch said on February 17th, 2009 at 2:20pm #

So we have to believe that the Holocaust is literally true, and we have to believe that 9/11 was NOT an inside job. And that Oswald killed Kennedy. Myth and madness. The American way. Oh, and the brave, brave, brave troops in Afghanistan and Iraq don’t torture and murder innocent people. Almost forgot. BRAVE troops.
Steve said on February 17th, 2009 at 2:27pm #

Great article! The way I see it, it’s not about denying the Holocaust. What it is about, is that certain aspects of the story is false and used for modern political weaponry. We are told that Jews were gassed in the hundreds of thousands (some say millions), in multiple homicidal gas chambers and gas vans, at various “death camps” by the Germans during WW2. Ask yourself: Is there any doubt in these allegations? Have you ever really thought about this highly polemical chapter in history? Consider this:

– At the end of the war many German leaders were on trial for war crimes. The Nuremberg courts established ‘judicial notice’ on the gas chambers, which meant they were accepted as fact by the court without ever providing proof, simple as that. This sham ‘judicial notice’ made any defense against the gas chambers claim impossible. Does this sound like the pursuit of truth and justice? Keep in mind that this was a victors tribunal created to criminalize many of the defeated German leaders for war crimes. It wasn’t an objective court, as is often portrayed, or else the Allied leadership most definately would have been in trouble for their own war crimes.

– The Allied forces had broken the German communication codes and listened in on communications between camps and Berlin etc. From these communications there was nothing which suggested gassing of people in gas chambers.

– There were indeed delousing gas chambers for linen and cloth in a large number of concentration camps, also in camps which are no longer thought to have gassed people. This is not revisionism, but accepted knowledge among mainstream historians. The Zyklon B pellets were produced for extermination of pests such as lice etc. Relevant to the matter, has anyone ever found one autopsy report that confirms that someone was gassed in a gas chamber during the whole of the Holocaust? Just one autopsy report verifying death via the insecticide Zyklon B? The answer is no. And we are lead to believe that “millions” were murdered by such methods.

– The Red Cross issued a massive, three volume, 1,600 page report on the camps after the war, part of which reads: “In the final months of the war, the camps received no food supplies at all and starvation claimed an increasing number of victims.” … Gen. Kaltenbrunner. . . Allowed the Red Cross to distribute relief packages and one (Red Cross) delegate was authorized to stay in each camp (as an observer). Were the Germans that sneaky to be able to hide their diabolical gassing operations (some “witnesses” claim thousands were gassed at a time, 24/7) from Red Cross observers? Were any of these “witnesses” who claim such incredible things ever cross-examined? Nope!

What we nowadays call the “Holocaust” was in reality Germany’s “Final Solution” to their “Jewish problem”. What was Germany’s problem with Jews isn’t clear and is another matter all together. The government’s policy then was emigration for the Jews; surely heartless, but not extermination via gassings.

Although we have all seen the pictures of hundreds of dead and dying prisoners, mostly taken at Bergen-Belsen, the victims are obviously of disease. They died of the same fate that killed nearly 2/3 of the 650,000 victims of the American Civil War: dysentery, and typhus.

I’m partial to the skeptics on the “mass gassing“ allegations. For good reason it’s obvious that parts of the “Holocaust” story are in need of re-examination, because, many of those “self-evident” parts (The homicidal gas chambers being the largest legend of them all. Lampshades and soap made from Jewish corpses are a couple others.) are having an impossible time standing up to scrutiny; hence, the undemocratic actions in many Western countries to criminalize researchers and laymen alike who don’t follow the official historiography — which by the way, alone should have the skeptics of the world asking: What is really going on here?
Shabnam said on February 17th, 2009 at 2:27pm #

You can not in any shape or form compare the case of Palestinians with Jews in Germany. Jews in Germany were part of the population where zionists in Palestine are the colonists, terrorists to steal Palestinians’ land and to force the indigenous population out of their land to erect “the greater Israel” to dominate the world where they have been able to steal 85% of so far through wedging wars and phony ‘peace process’ to buy time to change the facts on the ground, to kill many Palestinians and demolish their houses and confiscate their lands to add to the rest of the stolen land and are stealing more lands in the West Bank after the GAZA HOLOCAUST as we speak. Palestinians have nothing to do with the Nazis’ atrocities what so ever. Palestinians are victims of the zionist racists, where want to dominate the world through policy of expansionism. Contrary to claim of Zionists that Jewish holocaust was ‘unique’; there have been many victims other than Jews who had the SAME FAITH as them. There were more than 56 million dead of whom 23 million were from the Soviet Union alone, and more than 400000 Gypsies who received the same faith as Jews did, but the zionists have worked hard to hide these facts to sell their case as ‘unique’ which is not supported by many historians and scientists. They have tried to keep the myth of ‘uniqueness’ and ‘chosenness’ alive through establishment of many memorial museums while they have denied same victims of different groups recognition they deserve and have prevented them to have their own memorial museum not to lose Jewish ‘uniqueness.’ One group of these victims is the Gypsies where Norman Finklestien has tried to give an explanation to describe this behavior in his book “The Holocaust Industry” to say that the zionists’ dogma on ‘uniqueness’ is very much intertwined with Palestine as a ‘homeland’:

Multiple motives lurked behind the museum’s marginalizing of the Gypsy genocide:
{First: one simply couldn’t compare the loss of Gypsy and Jewish life. Ridiculing the call for Gypsy representation on the US holocaust Memorial Council as ‘cockamamie,’ executive director Rabbi Seymour Siegel doubted whether Gypsies even “existed” as a people: “There should be some recognition or acknowledgment of the gypsy people .. if there is such a thing.”
Second: acknowledging the Gypsy genocide meant the loss of an exclusive Jewish franchise over The Holocaust, with a commensurate loss of Jewish ‘moral capital.’
Third: if the Nazis persecuted Gypsies and Jews alike, the dogma that The Holocaust marked the climax of a millennial Gentile hatred of Jews was clearly untenable. Likewise, if Gentile envy spurred the Jewish genocide, did envy also spur the Gypsy genocide? In the museum’s permanent exhibition, non-Jewish victims of Nazism receive only token recognition.
Finally, the Holocaust museum’s political agenda has also been shaped by the Israel-Palestine conflict. Before serving as the museum’s director, Walter Reich wrote a paean to Joan Peters’s fraudulent From Time Immemorial, which claimed that Palestine was literally empty before Zionist colonization. Under State Department pressure, Reich was forced to resign after refusing to invite Yasir Arafat, now a compliant American ally, to visit the museum.}

Although there has been wide publicity about holocaust in WWII, the Iranian (Persian) Holocaust has been ignored where happened during the WWI (1917-1919 ) which Mohammad Gholi Majd has told the story under ‘The Great Famine and Genocide in Persia, 1917 – 1910’ where 8 to 10 million Iranians were perished due to war policy of British Imperialists’ decision not to import food from England or another country to feed their own occupying troop and to divert the Iranian crops to feed their the British troop to let Iranians die out of starvation and diseases . British war policy also is responsible for the famine of 1917-1919, making it the greatest calamity in Persia’s history. In this book, Mohammad Gholi Majd argues that Persia was the greatest victim of World War I and also the victim of possibly the worst genocide of the 20th century. Using U.S. State Department records, as well as Persian and British sources, Majd describes and documents a veritable holocaust about which practically nothing has been written. It is the first book in Majd’s World War I trilogy.
Now, the imperialists and Zionists who have been discredited more than ever before trying to push ignorant people into another war
by demonizing those who have been victims of imperial occupation and annihilation during WWI.

The Great Famine and Genocide in Persia, 1917-1919
by Mohammad Gholi Majd
Duane Evans said on February 17th, 2009 at 2:46pm #

“On 10 December 1948, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights…”

Following are articles 18 and 19 of that document.

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

I do not understand how prosecution for “Holocuast (Half-a-caust would be more like it) Denial” does not violate these articles.
Rhino Jack said on February 17th, 2009 at 3:06pm #

Dissedent Voice – “a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice”

Peace and social justice? what nonsense! Reading the comments above really reflects your mission statement right? One could write a million words in response to the crap above but this should suffice – There are only 13 million Jews in the world less than a percent of the world population (very small number for a group that controls world media, world finance and responsible for all the ills of the world) but your problem is that Israel is nuclear – screw with them like you tried during WWII and in years gone by, and they will simply take you all out with them.
Good luck!
bozh said on February 17th, 2009 at 3:32pm #

rhino,
i do not think that israel is as a big threat to world’s existence as some people suggest or aver.

israel cannot use a bomb against pals or many israelis wld die and land be contaminated for yrs.

if israel has N-bomb(s) it had not tested one; i.e., exploded one. whatever US may have done, it also fears judaic and christian cult, and thus i conjecture that it wld never ever deliver ready made N-bombs to such a cult.

the cult may use N-bombs if it had it. on its own, israel cannot manufacture a bomb since one needs vast resources to manufature one.
israel is dirt poor with minerals, smelters, etc.
and israel has nuclear umbrella. so does canada, australia; thus no need for them to manufacture own N-bombs. thnx
Atiya said on February 17th, 2009 at 3:50pm #

My suggestion would be to launch a fresh enquiry to find out the truth about the Holocaust. Surely, that is not controversial?
Shabnam said on February 17th, 2009 at 3:51pm #

Daniel McGown has written a good article, we need to talk about the issue more than less.

Israel definitely has nuclear bomb and they have made it clear that they can do anything they want because they are ‘the chosen people.’ Many people have already either given evidence or have announced publicly to support the fact that Israel has more than, at least, 200 nuclear bombs if not more, including Mordechai Vanunu, Jimmy Carter and Ehud Olmert, the prime minister of Israel. People should do a little bit of research before giving misleading information.
Suthiano said on February 17th, 2009 at 3:52pm #

Most powerful “Israelites” don’t view selves as such… This is identity created for mass of people of varying races/ethnicities with cult like reverence for Yisrael, or who simply have parents who believe as much. In this way Israel is like any country… heterogeneous but tied together by abstractions.

That being said, most powerful leaders are ppl w/ much international power, not restricted to “Isreal” landmass. Israel landmass may be only part of their plan, and not needed in long run. To say “Israelis” are not that dangerous may be true, but those at top of “Isreali” “Zioinst” power structure are international elites w/ much sway.

If Nuke is used, it would unlikely be used against Palestine, this is true. However, even the destruction of part of Israel/Israelis would not mean destruction of “Israeli” elites/zionism.
kalidas said on February 17th, 2009 at 4:10pm #

So I guess this isn’t a good time to bring up the “deicide denial” thing….?
brian said on February 17th, 2009 at 4:20pm #

‘It’s perfectly true to say that the original nazi plan was to simply get rid of the Jews out of Germany, not kill them.’

in this case, Israel is much worse, as its been killing palestinians to get them out of palestine.
brian said on February 17th, 2009 at 4:22pm #

Have people heard of the Samson Option???
Danny Ray said on February 17th, 2009 at 4:23pm #

Bozh, If the stinking, pest ridden, uneducated, woman stoning, Arabs can build a bomb in that shit hole called Pakistan, surely the Hebrews can build a thousand. After all, they live in the only civilized country east of Greece.

And as to whether or not that would mind taking their enemies or for that matter the whole world with them, well can you say,

MASADA!!!
Barry said on February 17th, 2009 at 4:24pm #

Some things we know about the Nazi Holocaust:

There was a Holocaust. Yad Vashem has recorded upwards of 3 million Jewish victim’s names. 50 to 60 million people were killed in WWII – so Jews represent about 5% of total deaths, though more if we only consider civilians.

The Nuremberg Laws singled out Gypsies as well as Jews. But the Holocaust advocates diminish and deny the victimization of Gypsies in the Holocaust. At the Holocaust Museum in DC, one room, of many, is devoted to non-Jewish victims.

There have been numerous holocausts, are at the very least, genocides that pre- and post-date the Nazi Holocaust. Two come to mind. King Leopold of Belgium killed millions of Congolese at the turn of the 20th century (that is, 19th to 20th centuries). The British twice committed genocide in Ireland, once when Oliver Cromwell killed about a quarter of the Irish population and secondly, when the Brits let the Irish starve during the potato famine as other grains were exported to England from Irish soil – soil stolen from the Irish. And Shabnam mentions the Iranian holocaust. And several major genocides since then. So the Nazi Holocaust is not a singular event, not even an uncommon event.

WWII used to be about the war between the Allies and the Axis powers. The major events of the war in US history used to include Pearl Harbor, the dropping of A-bombs on Japan, VE Day, and VJ Day. Now WWII is about the Nazi Holocaust – and only the Nazi Holocaust.

The Holocaust has been franchised. Many cities across the US have Holocaust Museums. Richmond, VA has one. Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy. It was also a Slave transfer point, where blacks were bought and sold. There is no museum to the slave period in Richmond, no museum of the Middle Passage. But there is the Holocaust Museum – though the Holocaust happened in Europe, not the American South.

The Holocaust is used to justify all manner of behavior by Israel. In fact, it is used to justify the very existence of Israel though the founders of Zionism had every intention of founding a Jewish state in Palestine decades before the Holocaust.

Finally – for now, the Nazis were not opposed by Revisionist Zionists until very late in the day. Revisionist Zionists and fellow travelers believed that Nazism was also an appropriate philosophy for the Jewish people. They believed that Germany should be for Germans – not Jews – that Jews were an alien people in the Aryan state. At bottom, Zionism is a philosophy about the essentialism of race – in this, a bedfellow of Nazism. For that reason, Zionists and Nazism held face to face meetings and cooperated on economic arrangements virtually up to the day the death camps were opened.

These things we know about the Nazi Holocaust.
brian said on February 17th, 2009 at 4:27pm #

‘Those laws you despise that ban Holocaust denial are not Jewish or Israeli or American laws, they are German and French and European laws, because they know the horrible things that happened to not only approx. 6 million Jews, but just as many Gypsies, homosexuals, Christians, Slavs, etc. Don’t forget what the Rev. Martin Niemoller said.’

Its stranghe that Israel has no such laws to protect the palestian people! and they are committing a Holocaust as we write. What would pastor Niemoller say about that!
Barry said on February 17th, 2009 at 4:30pm #

Bozh – Israel is known to have conducted joint nuclear exercises with Apartheid South Africa – that is, they exploded bombs in/under the Indian Ocean. When South Africa overcame Apartheid rule – it dismantled its nuclear arsenal.

That’s about all I know about their cooperation on this.
bozh said on February 17th, 2009 at 4:45pm #

david,
we do not know why Israel had not to date expelled/slain all pals. but that doesn’t mean we cannot guess the cause(s) for that.

it can be deduced from known facts; the most telling are continuous stealing of land, torture, imprisonment, barring the return , mass slaughter, wall, fences, etcetc that as many as 90% of world jewry want all pals out.
the reason for pals still being in expalestine is easily perceived; it’s the oil stupid.
many countries headed by US are mightily fearful of allowing ‘jews’ to drive pals out.
as the consequence of such an action are, of course, unforseable. a country like france, belgium is not going to allow it; they need that oil; oil that might be burning instead of flowing.
that is the only reason why ‘jews’ are not as genocidal as the nazis. thnx
brian said on February 17th, 2009 at 4:52pm #

‘that is the only reason why ‘jews’ are not as genocidal as the nazis.’

excuse me, but this is not true at all…The genocide by the nazis was there FINAL solution…Israel is genociding the palestinians in a much earlier phase of their operation.
bozh said on February 17th, 2009 at 5:00pm #

barry,
thnx for the info. ‘i’ve read about the cooperation btwn israel and s. afrika but did not know about underwater explosion. it is then s’mwhat puzzling that the world had not been alarmed about such a test being carried out as it must have killed so much sea life.
was not such a misdeed a crime and wld it not been considered a casus belli?
nixon had stated on larry king show some yrs ago that he knew that israel had N-bombs. larry said nothing and nixon did not explain how he knew nor how was Israel able to acquire them.
we need to know how he knew and how did israel acquire N-bombs.
anyway, Second N War (against iran) is mighty risky; the world might go bananas and US corporations wld not be happy with that. thnx
Barry said on February 17th, 2009 at 5:09pm #

Danny Ray – If anything, building nukes is not a sign of civilization – but its negation. A more cogent sign of incivility is the fact that Israel is race-based. Jim Crow in Israel itself, Apartheid in Occupied Palestine.

As for Masada – no one believes that anymore. The Jews at Masada did not commit suicide, they were slaughtered in battle with the Romans. Riveting story though, it has helped to sustain an Israeli mythology for decades.
bozh said on February 17th, 2009 at 5:11pm #

brian,
if you are referring to judeo-palestinian conflict lasting hundred yrs and judeo-german only about 10 yrs, then i can agree with you but only on duration of the two conflicts.

and i have made it clear that ‘jews’ wld be as genocidal towards pals if they cld. i can’t say it any clearer than this. thnx
bozh said on February 17th, 2009 at 5:26pm #

danny,
pakistanis are not arabs; they are an indo-european folk. i do not know much about pak’ns industrial capabilites which are needed to manufacture a A- or N-bomb; so i wld leave this to s’mbody else.
but am i mistaken about israel not having mines, smelters, refineries, steel mills, etc?
so, if i am right, Israel must have gotten readymade components for a bomb. from whom then? and how is it with so many spy agencies and private spying and nobody knows a thing about any of this?
we need smoking gun/bomb evidence. thnx
Barry said on February 17th, 2009 at 5:31pm #

Bozh – It seems that there were at least two concussions in the Indian Ocean, and neither gave off the signature of an earthquake – but rather had the fingerprint of nuclear explosions. I forget the years. It was already known that there had been South Africa/Israel military cooperation and the two exchanged all kinds of info on control of populations (hence the Bantustans in Palestine, modeled on those in S.A. ). I can’t gauge how much some sectors of the world were alarmed, but the US, being an ally of both, likely sat on the story best it could – and the US media followed suit.

Israel got the A-bomb and all its technology from France – a gift of DeGaulle. France, at that time was a big enemy of the Arab world. It had colonized Syria, Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Mauritania. It had joined Israel and Britain in attacking Egypt in 1956, the principal reason being that Nasser was a Pan-Arabist, and the French desperately feared an Arab-wide uprising against foreign rule. Algeria had even been made an integral part of France (as if it were just another district – ha!), and the disparity between how the French (called the colons) lived in Algeria, and how the Algerians were permitted to live was astounding. France also contributed to the initial effort to make a Jewish state in Palestine possible. So France has a lot of dirt on its hands. Eventually, of course, France lost all its colonies and finally even became dependent upon Algerian petroleum. Today, France officially understands the Palestinian position, but is rather tepid on this. Most French people, whatever their misgivings about the Arab population in France, understand that the Palestinians are right, and the Israelis are a threat to all. But what can be done, they cry anti-Semitism and call on Big Brother Uncle Sam to stifle any movement towards a just peace.

If Israel bombs Iran, I think we are looking at $10 a gallon at the pump.
Barry said on February 17th, 2009 at 5:38pm #

Bozh – By the way, I have seen the Israeli nuke plant in Dimona. I was shown it from about a half mile by two very proud Israelis. I tried to take a picture but got nixed on that. Israel also has another facility, far more secret, where research is done. I’m not sure where the bulk of the 200-300 warheads are stored. France provided all the original fissible (is that the word?) material – I wouldn’t be surprised if Israel has been stockpiling from other sources since then – maybe even from the US.
Danny Ray said on February 17th, 2009 at 5:59pm #

If the Jews nuke Tehran and kill a few million Iranians I hope you are more concerned about the killing of civilians than what Gas is at the pump.
kalidas said on February 17th, 2009 at 6:09pm #

Info on South Africa’s nuke test(s).

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB190/index.htm
kalidas said on February 17th, 2009 at 6:31pm #

Here are known “Jewish” hoaxes. (lies)

First the so-called “Dead Sea Scrolls” and “Masada.”
http://encyclopediaegypt.com/israel/j0265.htm

The mythical “King Solomon.”
http://www.sidneywoolf.com/

The “Exodus”
http://palestinethinktank.com/2008/09/02/gilad-atzmon-the-wandering-who/

And the hoax of the century. Which some commenters still adhere to by minimizing this that and the other, only to inevitably return to the “death camp” phraseology.
Do you have five minutes? I wonder…
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm

In conclusion, I predict Israel will conduct a moon launch in the near future. The most amazing find will be the incredible “Dead sea of Tranquility Scrolls,” proving the biblical “Israelis” were indeed the originally chosen ancient astronauts.
Barry said on February 17th, 2009 at 6:50pm #

Danny Ray – Israel will not nuke Iran, at least not with full-scale nukes. I think Israel has been working on small scale (relatively speaking) nukes that can kill tens of thousands (not counting the living that die later). But the point is, will the US give the green light knowing what will happen to gas prices? There are those who’d profit by it – but it would be doomsday for the Obama Administration. Then again, Israel often acts with impunity – the US be damned, knowing it can get congress to fall in line after the fact.
brian said on February 17th, 2009 at 7:07pm #

Holocaust denial in the Guardian commentary:

a fellow called Palete at 1:17 am wrote:

‘I unequivocally support the Israeli operation and am glad it ended with such minimal loss of Israeli life. Whats there to condemn? Hundreds of terrorists were killed so be grateful’

Thats holocaust denial and holocaust support…
Harvey said on February 17th, 2009 at 7:50pm #

The very first time I heard the term “The Holocaust”, I asked what it meant. I was told something along the lines of: “It is the word used to refer to what the Nazis did to the Jews in World War II.” I asked, “Why do they use a religious term for something in history?” I was told, “Oh, that’s just what they call it.”

Right then, I had a sneaking suspicion there was some kind of agenda behind this term. The very term “The Holocaust” manipulates people into a religious attitude. The proof is in the pudding. Today “The Holocaust” is the state religion of the Western World. Freedom of conscience is not allowed.
Interested Drive By said on February 17th, 2009 at 8:33pm #

People are getting tired of hearing and seeing events that may or may not have happened over 60 years ago being used as a shield against criticism, as an excuse for any immoral or criminal behavior, as a reason to gain privilege, as a reason to justify total self-absorption. I’m ready to see Bernie Madoff use the Holocaust as one of his excuses for financial fraud.

It wouldn’t be so bad if we were allowed to hear about some of the other, larger “holocausts” of the 20th century, such as the 30 million Russians and Ukrainians murdered by Lazar Kaganovich and Lavrenti Beria. Oh, you’ve never heard of this? That’s because these two “Russians” were jews. Jews who murdered these people because these people weren’t jews. Look up Kun, Tito, etc. All of them jews. All of them behind the mass murders of millions of people, far and above any numbers attributed to Hitler. And in all their cases, there is no doubt about what happened, no problem in finding evidence if one looks. But they are ignored because the children, grandchildren, nephews etc of these men run the media. The media that buries in more and more WWII Holocaust propaganda each year. All if it apparently designed to keep us disarmed, unable to fight other insidious plans the horrible people behind the propaganda have on tap.
ken said on February 17th, 2009 at 8:47pm #

Look, this is dancing around the issue. Asking “What does Holocaust denial really mean?” is the equivalent of Bill Clinton’s famous equivocation “that depends on what the meaning of is IS.”

The Holocaust is 6 million jew deaths, by gassing, at the hands of the Nazis.

That sentence is important because disputing of any part of it, even if you accept all the rest will get you jail time in Europe, and maybe even America at some point.

The problem isn’t that some people dispute certain parts of the Official Tale, the problem is that jewish groups and their lackies insist that every story, every outlandish claim, every jot and tittle of the Official Tale be accepted uncritically as unvarnished truth.

It is THAT demand that is absurd, not the fact that some people dispute the tale in whole or part.

One more thing. After the fall of Communism, the Polish government revised the death toll at Auschwitz downward from 4 million to “about 1.5 million. This figure has been validated by the Israeli Yad Vashem, their official Holocaust Memorial Museum in Tel Aviv. In spite of this fact, the Official Tale still insists that the only number that is acceptable is the number six million. Not “about” six million, not 5.9 million, no no, exactly six million.

You don’t have to be a raging Nazi or wacko to see something wrong with that.

Ken
http://www.LaserGuidedLoogie.com
GTR51967 said on February 17th, 2009 at 9:05pm #

I believe a letter home to his family from the war included in the late Kurt Vonnegut’s postumous collection, “Armageddon in Retrospect,” provides clues to how delousing became “gassing.”

Vonnegut describes how he was herded with others on cattle cars and transported to a camp, where the prisoners were put into scalding delousing showers. He writes:

“Many men died from shock in the showers after 10 days of starvation, thirst and exposure. But I didn’t.”

Starve already undernourished, overworked, frightened people and submit them to the shock of a hot shower and a fair proportion will keel over. Some might die. When propaganda is needed to show malice of intent, this becomes embellished as “gas chambers.” And now this rumor has become the law in many Zionist occupied countries.
Charlie said on February 17th, 2009 at 9:14pm #

>>Are these revisionist contentions so odious as to cause those who believe them to be reviled, beaten, and imprisoned?

Reviled, Yes. Beaten and imprisoned, no. Nevertheless, if the writer of this piece can’t understand why it’s odious, then he’s doomed to continue publishing his work on inconsequential, moonbat sites such as this one.
lichen said on February 17th, 2009 at 9:26pm #

Yes, the german holocaust killed also 5 million gypsies, homosexuals, disabled people, communists, political dissidents, and other groups. It was not only the jewish people who were targeted. And that law in Europe is ridiculous; I think it is anyone’s right to ‘trivialize’ the holocaust after the zionist-driven holocaust industry has produced endless books and movies and used the holocaust as justification for further crimes against humanity and jewish religious fundamentalism. I don’t doubt it happened, but I’ll certainly trivilize it after so much time has passed, and other massacres don’t get as much publicity, and as we have much bigger problems to deal with today.
Leslie said on February 17th, 2009 at 10:32pm #

I won’t even attempt a guess at the motivations for denial of the Nazi atrocities by this writer, except to say that there are probably other conspiracies lurking in his brain similar to this one. Thankfully, fringe views of misfits like this will remain on the fringe, and perhaps the writer will come out and meet the human race one day. It is chilling to remember the words of the US General (and many others) upon entering the gates of the prison camp at war’s end, viewing the hundreds of thousands of dead saying, prophetically, “We must never forget.” Unfathomably, some have, if they ever cared to know at all. I pity this writer and hope that his resistance to the truth, his dark-hearted wish to mimimize horrific suffering, and need to blame the Jews for their own fate, will someday give way to reality. He, in fact, would have made a great Nazi:”I see, I hear, but I know nothing.”
Gideon said on February 17th, 2009 at 11:06pm #

Islam accepts three beloved Jews: Abraham, Moses and Jesus as its early prophets and it’s “killing” the Muslims.

Kalidas, please say like you mean it: Abraham, Moses and Jesus were great Jews!
Terry said on February 17th, 2009 at 11:27pm #

The one fact with this holocaust industry I have always had trouble digesting is,how could 6.000.000+ individuals let themselves be walked to their deaths like meek lambs to the slaughter,surely at least 10%= 600.000 of them would have fought like cornered tigers fighting for their lives,but I’ve never once read of any mass uprisings or similar.I’ve spent most of my life believing this story,but over the last few years the amount of evidence/alternative views coming into the light have opened my eyes to say the least.The world is going to be mighty peeved if we find a minority of thugs has been pulling the wool over our eyes for 50+ years.
Suthiano said on February 17th, 2009 at 11:47pm #

Holocaust was “Shoah” to many: Roma, Jewish, Sinti, Polish, German, Catholic, French, Slavic..(etc)… Many people suffered as victims, these ppl identified in many different ways as individuals, members of communities etc… We could learn a lot from the events, the tragedies. Many ppl learned that they hated war… but not many learned what caused events.

Holocaust was beneficial to some, including elite “Jewish” ppl…

“Joel Brand (April 25, 1906 – July 13, 1964) was a Hungarian Jew who played a prominent role in trying to save the Hungarian Jewish community during the Holocaust from deportation to the German death camp at Auschwitz.

Brand teamed up with fellow Zionists in Hungary, in or around 1942, to form the Aid and Rescue Committee, a small group dedicated to helping Jewish refugees in Nazi-occupied Europe escape to the relative safety of Hungary, before the German invasion of that country in March 1944.

Shortly after the invasion, Brand was asked by SS officer Adolf Eichmann to help broker a deal between the SS and the United States or Britain. Eichmann told Brand that he was prepared to release up to one million Hungarian Jews, who were otherwise destined for Auschwitz, if the Western Allies would supply Germany with 10,000 trucks, and large quantities of soap, tea, and coffee” (Wikipedia, Joel Brand).

When Joel Brand met with the Jewish Agency it was headed by Moshe Sharett. Born Moshe Shertok, in Kherson, Ukraine, Russian Empire, Moshe emigrated to Palestine in 1906. In 1953 Moshe Sharret became the second ever Prime Minister of Israel.

Negotiations were blocked by the “allies” – that is not to say the “allies” dying on the ground, who were certainly victims – who were likely both “christian” and “jewish”, “british” and “israeli”, and whatever else their subjects counter-transferred onto their leaders.

The elites running the show don’t care about national boundaries/identities beyond the purpose that those things serve. The purpose they serve is providing boundaries and identities for subject population…

“Holocaust denial” is an absurd concoction of same elites, who would seek to continue define boundaries and identities, and profit off of massive culling of the civilians and esp. young males of much of the world.

Historical events of comprising “Holocaust” certainly are tragic, but not for some peoples only. It is another example of the shepherds (mis)leading the flock into hell.
Gideon said on February 17th, 2009 at 11:47pm #

Holocaust research funded by Governments around the world and UN special budget. We need to get to the “bottom” of it!

I also propose a international world wide Holocaust debate teams and Holocaust museum in every country member of UN.
russell olausen said on February 18th, 2009 at 12:30am #

We now need Isreal to pass a law against Moon Walk revisionists/denyers.Maybe signed to law on the 40th year mark of this daring fete’.Yes WE CAN.Some of the original participants could be in the signing photo-op.40 lashs with a wet noodle.
alasdair said on February 18th, 2009 at 3:21am #

cool… there are more thought criminals.

Who would have thunk it.

Viva La Revisionisma
Mike Hunt said on February 18th, 2009 at 4:17am #

The article is wrong. The term Holocaust includes Gays, Russians, Ukrainians, Handicapped, Gypsy’s, and various other groups who died in the camps. Once again we see the mindset which limits the “holocaust” to just Jews.
Mike Hunt said on February 18th, 2009 at 4:22am #

Human Smoke needs to be read if only to illuminate the allies attitude towards the Jews. Oh and how they made it worse for all.
pedro said on February 18th, 2009 at 5:29am #

Everyone seems to miss the point. And the point, to me, is: precedent.
I am not particularly interested in the holocaust, and the holocaust manipulation by nowadays jews, though mean and moraly repreensible, will inevitably backfire because of the understadable fury it instills and the hipocrisy it lays bare.
Ironically hate laws will, in what may directly concern the jews, be the best weapon for spreading hatred against them.
The real problem here is the subtle change those hate laws will produce in present and future generations, regardless of the jewish question. When one starts having to choose the words, or opt for silence, in matters of opinion, something very important has been lost in the process.
Freedom of expression is the other face of freedom of thought and both are the motor for creativity and progress as we know it in the western civilization. The price we must pay is allowing everyone to express themselves, however foolish or despicable their words may seem to us.
It is the only way to make it work. Kill it, and you’ll be killing our means of survival.
Barry said on February 18th, 2009 at 6:30am #

Holocaust denial may be morally wrong but so too is Holocaust manipulation. The latter is a much bigger industry with far more deadly consequences – for all of us.

Holocaust denial gets much of what little traction it has from the fact that it is illegal in Germany and elsewhere to deny the Holocaust. Holocaust manipulation gets great traction from denying the existence of other Holocausts. Right now, we see Zionists in the US flirting with admitting there was an Armenian Holocaust just so they can punish Turkey’s Erdogan for having the temerity to protest Israel’s mass murder in Gaza.

Note to Gideon: Abraham, Moses and Jesus were Jewish the way Robin Hood was English and Paul Bunyan was American.
Mike said on February 18th, 2009 at 7:24am #

“Holocaust Denial” means, if innocent people are being imprisoned because they made their opinion on what is known as the Holocaust public, then EVERYONE needs to become a “Holocaust Denier” so the real truth may be known. Just because their opinion raises very valid questions that HAVE to be answered by looking at the evidence. The revisionists who are illegally being held in prison did nothing more than make their thoughts available to others on paper and/or in speech. There thoughts are their crimes. This fact alone should make EVERYONE question the validity of “The Holocaust” . If what is said is true, why create laws that make it illegal to refute it? There is something very sinister at the heart of why “The Holocaust” was turned into the tragedy of all time and that sinister aura is Israel itself. Created for the blood of people that never existed and who were never gassed in chambers and built on the blood of the people who lived where Israel now is and who are still having their blood spilled and land stolen by the Israeli occupiers even today. This is why the Zionists have designed “The Holocaust” to be such a volatile subject that even thinking your own thoughts about it will get you jailed.

HOLOCAUST DENIAL: Means THE TRUTH, it didn’t happen the way the world has been told. The current and allowed version of “The Holocaust” is slowly crumbling apart because it is a ton of lies being glued together with an ounce of truth. Revisionism will prevail in today’s world, I hope, because evidence collection methods have advanced tremendously and only the truth will hold up to this level of scrutiny.
Jason said on February 18th, 2009 at 8:06am #

Abraham, Moses and Jesus were not Jewish!
The term Jewish is modern, the Greek word in the New Testament meant “Judean, person of Judea”. Judea was the territory of the former kingdom of Judah, which had been destroyed by the Babylonians and the tribes of Judah and Benjamin carted off to Babylon. Other folks moved in, a remnant of the Judahites etc were allowed later to return, and the terrible Edomites were converted to “become Jews” more than a century before Jesus, accounting for his hatred for the ruling Edomite structure in Judea of his time, calling them “of their father the devil” (John 8:44) and “the synagogue of satan” (Rev 2:9, 3:9). He called their religious leaders “offspring of vipers” (Matt 12:34). Jesus was not Judean, he was Galilean (Matt 3:13, 26:69) as were his disciples. Pilate called him “Jesus of Nazareth (i.e. of Galilee), king of the Judeans” (John 19:19). Abraham was the great grandfather of Judah, the patriarch of the Kingdom of Judah, the forerunner of geographical Judea, so to call Abraham (or Moses) Judean is history back-to-front.
Jason said on February 18th, 2009 at 8:09am #

It’s now official – there is no actual shortage of Holocaust survivors.
‘The Israeli Prime Minister’s office recently put the number of “living Holocaust survivors” at nearly a million’ (extract from The Holocaust Industry by Norman G. Finkelstein of the City University of New York, published by Verso, London and New York, 2000, p.83).

Google “Holocaust survivor” and see what you get.

I’ve checked out Churchill’s Second World War and the statement is quite correct – not a single mention of Nazi ‘gas chambers,’ a ‘genocide’ of the Jews, or of ’six million’ Jewish victims of the war.
Eisenhower’s Crusade in Europe is a book of 559 pages; the six volumes of Churchill’s Second World War total 4,448 pages; and De Gaulle’s three-volume Mémoires de guerre is 2,054 pages.
In this mass of writing, which altogether totals 7,061 pages (not including the introductory parts), published from 1948 to 1959, one will find no mention either of Nazi ‘gas chambers,’ a ‘genocide’ of the Jews, or of ’six million’ Jewish victims of the war.
Shabnam said on February 18th, 2009 at 8:28am #

**But what does a Holocaust denial really mean?**

It means if you don’t follow the UN orders due to pressure from the world zionism, then you will be designated as a holocaust denial. After reviewing the requirements for not to be designated as a holocaust denial, it reveals that ISRAEL is the only country deserves to be designated as a holocaust denial in the world.
Israel as a racist, terrorist, apartheid and an occupying zionist entity where has done enough war crimes against humanity and MORE, to be given a HOLOCUASLT DENIAL MEDAL yet due to a ZIONIST WORLD SYSTEM she has escaped the punishment so far. Why the ‘international community’ is so petty to be forced to sign this kind of intimidating paper from a racist, occupier, apartheid, terrorist and guilty of many other crimes against humanity where Israel in recent GAZA HOLOCAUST bombed and killed so many toddlers and children with illegal WMD including Phosphorus and depleted Uranium, in the occupied land and earlier in Lebanon. Israel was deeply involved in Apartheid state of South Africa killing Blacks.
This resolution is based on Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1, 3, 18 where Israel has violated all of these principals. What a shameful International system!! Read the following to see THIS pressure tactics will come soon to your THEATRE near you if you continue to be silent.

The United Nations General Assembly unanimously adopted a resolution introduced by Israel and designated January 27 as Holocaust Remembrance Day.
The General Assembly,

Reaffirming the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,1 which proclaims that everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth therein, without distinction of any kind, such as race, religion or other status,

Recalling article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states that everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person,

Recalling also article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and article 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights,2 which state that everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion,

Bearing in mind that the founding principle of the Charter of the United Nations, “to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war”, is testimony to the indelible link between the United Nations and the unique tragedy of the Second World War,

Recalling the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide,3 which was adopted in order to avoid repetition of genocides such as those committed by the Nazi regime,

Recalling also the preamble of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states that disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind,

Reaffirming that the Holocaust, which resulted in the murder of one third of the Jewish people, along with countless members of other minorities, will forever be a warning to all people of the dangers of hatred, bigotry, racism and prejudice,

1. Resolves that the United Nations will designate 27 January as an annual International Day of Commemoration in memory of the victims of the Holocaust;

2. Urges Member States to develop educational programmes that will inculcate future generations with the lessons of the Holocaust in order to help to prevent future acts of genocide, and in this context commends the Task Force for International Cooperation on Holocaust Education, Remembrance and Research;

3. Rejects any denial of the Holocaust as an historical event, either in full or part;

4. Commends those States which have actively engaged in preserving those sites that served as Nazi death camps, concentration camps, forced labour camps and prisons during the Holocaust;

5. Condemns without reserve all manifestations of religious intolerance, incitement, harassment or violence against persons or communities based on ethnic origin or religious belief, wherever they occur;

6. Requests the Secretary-General to establish a programme of outreach on the subject of the “Holocaust and the United Nations” as well as measures to mobilize civil society for Holocaust remembrance and education, in order to help to prevent future acts of genocide; to report to the General Assembly on the
establishment of this programme within six months from the date of the adoption of the present resolution; and to report thereafter on the implementation of the programme at its sixty-third session.

42nd plenary meeting
1 November 2005
Dave Libori said on February 18th, 2009 at 8:31am #

To claim that Jesus was a Jew, is like saying that the first human was a monkey. Jesus was the first Christian!
bozh said on February 18th, 2009 at 8:33am #

interested,
josip broz, known as tito, was a son of a croatian man and slovenian woman.
this is the first time i read that tito was a ‘jew’. tito looked slavic: full/round face, blue eyes, prominent cheeks.
it seems he was not a descendant of shemites to which also hebrews and judeans belong.thnx
Mister Jimmy said on February 18th, 2009 at 8:40am #

I seriously doubt that Hitler was ever a ‘good Catholic.’ There are no records of him or his family being a member of a given church parish (though a priest did record his father’s name-change from Shicklegruber to Hitler at the age of 41.) He attended public schools until he dropped out and no one ever saw him praying under any auspices. He told underlings during WWII that he would allow the Catholic Church to exist until the end of the war, then (assuming Germany was the winner) would do away with the church in areas where the Nazis held sway and replace their ritual with Nazi-style ritual. Of course, the Catholic Church cooperated with him in every way possible, just as they cooperated with Franco and Mussolini.
bozh said on February 18th, 2009 at 8:46am #

talking about denials, world is rife with them. israel, however, seems to deserve an oscar for its dissembling and denials.
it also appears to have learned less from history than any other real or artificial country.
israelis, as the adherents of judaic cult or torah with its own numerous denials, are denying almost in toto the two judaic shoahs: 728 bc of the Northern Kingdom and in 70-150 ad in the roman province of judea.
so, socalled semites are the biggest and most vigorous deniers of the two shoahs as well as most hateful antisemites.thnx
Gideon said on February 18th, 2009 at 9:30am #

Abraham, Moses and Jesus were great Jews! Please say it like you mean it.
Jack said on February 18th, 2009 at 9:49am #

A rabbi friend once told me, “This will come back to hurt us,” about all the Shoah-centric spieling, vis a vis the “Second World War”*.

I think he’s right. Overstating an issue is bad enough. Overstating harm done (or simply ignoring in official accounts that it was not exclusively done to one self) to prevent criticism will eventually undermine claims to immunity.

If a man was slapped, but tells everyone he was beat to a pulp, eventually no one will even believe he was slapped.

If Zionists continue to insist on a Judaeocentric version of the Shoah, and if they repeatedly punish attempts to study figures and data (regardless of the eventual outcomes, which may confirm their story, or may not), soon enough (and 60 years is a blip, even by the geologically short standard of recorded history) no one is going care if the Nazis rounded up and killed many Jews, among others. What will matter is that the grandchildren of those Jews don’t like to be criticized for their own allegiances and loyalties, for their own support of or participation in the crimes of the Israeli state – and that they use the Shoah as a cloak of protection.

When it no longer works, to whom will they turn? What moral authority will their adversaries, opponents and actual enemies cede to them? Perhaps none, since they refused to give any moral right or ground themselves, speaking simultaneously against holocaust for Jews, and for holocaust for Palestinians.

* -Second World Orgy of Self-Destruction While Bosses Managed To Turn Fabulous Profits.
phil enggate said on February 18th, 2009 at 10:56am #

Very good article.

To get a better appreciation of what went on between the two world wars and since, one should read the books written by Douglas Reed and in particular his book “The Controversy of Zion” which was written after the Second World War.

All his books can be download for free from the internet.
jz said on February 18th, 2009 at 11:06am #

It’s a damn shame that Deborah Lipstadt went through all this in a trial in England a few years back and proved that all the Holocaust deniers are full of it. Oh that’s right she is just a Jew and probably rigged the program. Guys get a life and try and do some good in the world.
excubitoris said on February 18th, 2009 at 12:11pm #

OK guys – lets take a look – 3 mil. died “MOSTLY in natural causes” – what that means – all of them in camps or was that ALL during WW2 ?
Those numbers do not mach – 8milj soviet military was lost or died in the battleground – 16 Soviet civilians died (some of them where wounded – but after soldier was wounded he was reclassified as “out of service” or not in army anymore) – and they want that I will believe that allmost same amount jews (6 milj) where gassed, shot etc as in total losses Soviet Army ????
Jewish World Congress printed in they Almanah number of jes in ALL Europe in 1937 – 3,2 mil. – what up with that number ??
What about those Aucwitch plaques – first there was 4 mil. then 1,5 mil – cant they make up they mind how much it was ?
Then RedCross – ok they “did not see” all those gassings – it happens – but question – Soviets did not let RedCross to they camps NOT AT ALL – nada – zip – not ONE Red Cross worker to the Soviet GULAG camps – can You figure out why ?

So as You can see – number DO NOT go together as they should – WHY ?
Usually number don’t mix if someone lies ? Did Churchill or DeGaulle where “closet revisionists” or even antisemites when they omitted all that 6 mil. gassed people from they memoirs ?

And one more thing – basis for creation state of israel was UN resolution – then question WHEN DID UN GET POWERS TO CREATE STATES ? Can anyone find that part in UN Harta or from his founding agreements ? ANYONE ?

I am not to belong to tha “funclub” on islam – I still revere my great.. ..great grandfather from Poland fighting FOR Europe under the wall of Vienna in July 1683. I think islam is NOT combatible with Europe or Europeans – but what israel currently doing in Palestine its even worst then that WWII holocaust and that because WE ALL SEE IT and we sit and do nothing ….

THATS pathetic…
LanceThruster said on February 18th, 2009 at 2:04pm #

I once referenced a Prof. McGowan article at LA Jewish Journal God Blog forum, and the only response was that Prof. McGowan was an anti-Semite and a Holocaust denier. It’s as if it’s become a substitute for actually thinking. Just smear someone without ever addressing their points.
Anarko said on February 18th, 2009 at 5:22pm #

I’m very glad to see this article published on a progressive website like dissidentvoice.

You’ll get a few racist types and provocateurs dropping by but the reality is that every historical event should be scrutinized and re-scrutinized until it is properly understood. This is what Historians are FOR. Books like “Lies my teacher told me” and Howard Zinn’s “A People’s History” are examples of historical revisionism. If historians stop revising, we’ll end up with religion and Hollywood in place of history. Indeed that’s precisely what’s happening with “The Holocaust”. Having a different opinion about this event has become a modern form of heresy, complete with imprisonment and most recently, excommunication! Can torture be far behind?

Look:

It is not controversial that Pentagon psyops fabricated atrocity stories prior to and during the assault on Serbia in order to justify removing Milosevic from power. It is not controversial that the “incubator babies” atrocity was fabricated in order to justify the first Gulf war. It is not controversial that the Creel Commission made up ridiculous stories about the Germans in order to inflame American anger during WWI. The list goes on and on.

Given that “Holocaust scholars” are now in agreement that the “human lamp shade” and “Jewish soap” stories were propaganda, it is perfectly reasonable to question other aspects of the official account.

No one is denying that Jews — along with anarchists, communists, the mentally ill, the physically disabled and countless other groups — were persecuted and killed by the Nazi regime. The problem is two-fold (1) we are expected to single out Jewish suffering at the expense of everyone else and (2) we are expected to believe a story about “6 million” and “gas chambers” which is grossly implausible according to both common sense and expert testimony.

It is true that there are unsavory racist types who hate all things Jewish and have ulterior motives in studying Jewish suffering in WWII, but censorship and oppression of dissidents is not a solution. As Heinlein once remarked of censorship, “It’s like demanding that grown men live on skim milk because the baby can’t eat steak.”

There are many other dangers associated with the Holocaust myth. It presents a cartoonish view of human beings and “demonic evil”; it obscures the real lesson of WWII — which is that militarism and imperialism are enormously destructive (rather, we have the “good war” as epitomized by Spielberg’s Saving Private Ryan). It is used as a shield by Zionists to defend the expansion of Israel at the expense of Palestinians and other neighbors to the Zionist regime.

Clearly, we did not learn the lesson that racism is wrong — witness the Zionists themselves. We did not learn the lesson that militarism is wrong — witness the American state. We did not learn that fascism is wrong — again, witness the slow creep of fascism in both American and Israeli society.

What we learned is that Jewish suffering is uniquely horrifying, that Israelis might face another “holocaust” at any moment, that the alleged enormity of Jewish suffering justifies any atrocity, that Americans are the good guys who save the world via dropping bombs, and so on.

To the apologists who argue that we should not describe what is happening in the middle east as “genocide” because it doesn’t involve putting 6 million people into baking ovens (who writes this stuff?), you merely prove my point. Millions of people are dying in the middle east as a result of American imperialists with the full support of racist, Zionist aggressors, and you want to quibble over whether this constitutes a “proper” genocide?

Let’s be clear: Israeli strategic planners such as Oded Yinon have called the balkanization of the entire middle east in order to make way for “Greater Israel”. This is a real holocaust unfolding before our eyes, and we must stop it. If that means speaking uncomfortable truths about “the Holocaust”, or 911, or any other event, we are required by basic ethics to do so. At the very least, we should defend the people being persecuted for merely speaking their minds.
Eric Vaughan said on February 18th, 2009 at 6:25pm #

A huge chunk of the media is Jewish. The vast resources of the media are at their fingertips. Given the “farm team” status of most of the authors of books that question the gassings and what have you, it is no cruelty to say that the latter group is vastly outmatched and should be trampled in just about every given contest between the two. Except here.

If all the honour students at your school refused to debate a bunch of pot-smoking heavy metalheads in a public forum, you would have to doubt the authenticity of the honours the school hands out. Since no one can do that here, there is only one elementary conclusion left. The Holocaust gas chambers can’t be defended with factual basis, any more than the 2001 anthrax letters or the 1996 Ramsey ransom note can be can blamed on organized Muslims.
Sada said on February 18th, 2009 at 6:33pm #

Some here ask why Israel doesn’t drive all the Palestinians out.

As long as there are Palestinians living in and around Israel no Arab or Muslim nation can wage an all-out war against it. The country is so small that even with limited attacks there may be no way to prevent the destruction of Palestinians and the myriad of holy sites dotting the landscape. Because the Palestinians have become synonymous in the Middle East (and even beyond) with the struggle against occupation, oppression and injustice, no nation even considering to take on Israel is willing to be known as the one that got all the Palestinians killed while attempting to free them. Strategically, it’s genius.

Also, Israel is the psychopath who gets off on tormenting a child in front of his parents while holding a gun to his head, and if they dare make a move to rescue him…well…bang. That’s Israeli foreign policy in a nutshell.
Bud Kesler said on February 18th, 2009 at 6:35pm #

If the Holocaust story is true all the way, why would the Zionists discredit anyone who’d like to do some scholarly research re the tull truth of it as “a self-hating Jew” (Norman Finkelstein) if within Israel and as antisemitic if among the gentiles? Why not let the Holocaust story be tested if it can stand the test of truth?

I am wholly undecided cuz I don’t know. I am the agnostic. Why not let all those who have the time and the resources to check it out have go at it? Let them either convince us, once for all, that it is true or, once for all, demonstrate that it — more or less of it — is just holocause industry propaganda.

Puzzled,

Bud
Alan Cabal said on February 18th, 2009 at 7:18pm #

The Biblical (i.e., MYTHICAL) figure known as “Abraham” was a dangerous wacko. He heard a Voice in his head. The Voice told him to take his kid up the mountain and KILL HIM. He proceeded to obey the Voice. Only caprice on the part of the Voice kept the mythical Isaac from being slain by his own father.

Today we put people like that away and bomb them with Thorazine.
Rabbi Chosen One said on February 18th, 2009 at 9:01pm #

I was born in NYC in 1952. My mother was murdered in a Flabber Gas Chamber by evil Germans a mere 6 months before I was born. Shortly afterward in 1941 my entire family was rounded up and sent to Camp Feiertag along with 6 million other Jews from the Bronx and Long Island. I was separated from my family, denied even the most basic creature comforts such as soda and snacks,and forced to bathe in mass gravies. I was in a state of shock. I could hardly eat or sleep and to make matters worse, I had misplaced my cell phone charger. I felt powerless. This coming on the heels of a Hamas rocket attack that had left a scratch in my driveway, left me feeling kind of sad. So I ask fans of the Holocaust to send me huge amounts of money to help me, a whining victim of the Kosher Armamaggedon Holohaux Minstral Show get over this injustice commited by those evil ZIONazi’s. Cash is prefered, but I will accept checks, money orders and precious metals.

TRUTH does not fear investigation! Investigate the Holocaust!
Luis Cayetano said on February 18th, 2009 at 10:02pm #

I can’t believe the dumb-fuckery that’s been displayed in these comments. Look at these whoppers:

Ken said:

“The Holocaust is 6 million jew deaths, by gassing, at the hands of the Nazis.

“That sentence is important because disputing of any part of it, even if you accept all the rest will get you jail time in Europe, and maybe even America at some point.”

Ummmm….no. The official narrative doesn’t hold that 6 million Jews were gassed to death. That’s just a caricature that you’ve set up (or perhaps heard from someone else and accepted it to be what the generally accepted story entails) in order to have it knocked down and shown as “obviously ridiculous”. The official narrative holds that somewhere around 6 million Jews were killed through various means: starvation, overworking, execution by death squads, medical experimentation, AND gassing. And millions more were killed by Himmler’s goons, through similar means.

Terry said:

“The one fact with this holocaust industry I have always had trouble digesting is,how could 6.000.000+ individuals let themselves be walked to their deaths like meek lambs to the slaughter,surely at least 10%= 600.000 of them would have fought like cornered tigers fighting for their lives,but I’ve never once read of any mass uprisings or similar.”

First of all, where’d you get the figure of 10 percent to serve as a baseline for how many people out of an oppressed population should fight back? You seem to have pulled that out of your arse.

Secondly, are you honestly telling us that you’ve never heard of the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto? So basically you’re just ignorant, but you want to pontificate about your professed “scepticism”.

Then there’s the truly lurid and disgusting: “To claim that Jesus was a Jew, is like saying that the first human was a monkey. Jesus was the first Christian!”

Hitler would have been proud of you.

Did the Holocaust – ie. the systematic, if fortuitously arrived-at, mass murder of millions of people (including non-Jews) – happen? Yes. That’s been proven by masses of eye-witness testimony and documentation. The evidence converges to such an extent that the general outline of the narrative has been corroborated beyond all reasonable doubt. Have certain aspects of the Holocaust narrative been debunked? Yes. The story about soap made from human fat has been debunked. Does that mean that a monstrous crime didn’t take place? Only if you think that every criminal enterprise where the reporting has been embellished by any falsehoods should be scrapped has thereby been “disproved”. If anyone wants to deny the Holocaust on the basis of debunked soap, they should be consistent and deny that World War 2 happened on the basis of…well, ANY myth attached to it.

Is the Israeli government justified in using the Holocaust to perpetuate crimes of its own? Any decent person unafflicted by the religion of state worship would reason: no. If we even have to debate that then it shows something deeply defective in our culture. Does the fact that the Israeli government gets political mileage out of this monstrous episode in human history mean that it didn’t happen? By the same token, you’d have to be a grade-A motherfucker to believe that.
Earlaiman said on February 19th, 2009 at 12:33am #

I have read the comments and cannot find any discussion here… nothing but a mess of un and ill-founded opinions, hearsay, rant and kant.

So , having been invited, I shall take the opportunity to add some of my own (opinion, hearsay, rant and cant).

It is all a bunch of crap. Dresden was a holocaust (small “h”) as was Berlin and a numbr of other German cities. Very few, if any, of the slave labor and prison camps were burned, and noneof them were qualit[fied as ‘Holocausts” under correct definitions of the term.

T okyo was a holocaust! Nagasaki was a holocaust! Nagasaki was a holocaust. (German) Nazis perpetrated none of them.

Now, anyone want to talk genocide?

Lets take a trip to Gaza, and see if we can fnd enugh roof under which to hold a conventin, and have some sort of on scene discussion.

Earlaiman said that. It is personal opinion, rant, kant, and anti-Semite bigotry, I know, but I yam what I yam and tha’s all I yam! I am also a racist, misogynist, male chauvinist pig according to a great number of people, many of whom are much smarter than I.

All of them are full of shit!

.
John Mackie said on February 19th, 2009 at 12:38am #

Sorry Luis…. I’ve read this kind of sophisticated spin on what ‘the official narrative’ is – or is not.

‘The official narrative doesn’t hold that 6 million Jews were gassed to death. That’s just a caricature that you’ve set up (or perhaps heard from someone else and accepted it to be what the generally accepted story entails) in order to have it knocked down and shown as “obviously ridiculous”. The official narrative holds that somewhere around 6 million Jews were killed through various means: starvation, overworking, execution by death squads, medical experimentation, AND gassing. And millions more were killed by Himmler’s goons, through similar means.’

All you’ve done set up a straw man that is easy to knock down.

There is NO DOUBT that the official narrative is that millions of jews were gassed. In a premeditated plan. On an industrial scale. Even were one to grant that the symbolic 6 million were killed, by all the other means SAVE gassing… you would be called a holocaust denier. The gas chambers narrative is the sine qua non of the official narrative. And I DON’T BUY IT. the more I read about the entirely circumstantial evidence for gas chambers the LESS I believe it. And I’ve been reading up on it – both sides, ever since such materials were easily obtained in the public domain that is the internet.

Like many I was brought up on a non-stop diet of Auchswitz, cattle trucks, strip, shower, cremation etc. And pictures of emaciated bodies in shallow graves were supposed to be proof of that crime. But of course they were nothing of the sort. They were bodies of people who have starved to death. At the end of the war. When the whole infrastructure in Germany was bombed to pieces.

There is as much circumstantial evidence that they were not ‘extermination camps’ but a combination of internment and work camps.

As far as I am still (open-mindedly) willing to grant the gassing story is the possibility that some experimentation with gassing might have been carried out.

Much of the story might IMHO have sprung from the Jewish fear and dislike of cremation as opposed to burial. And hence the myth branding as a ‘Holocaust’ as opposed to any other generic branding of the many ways in which severl hunderd thousand Jews were killed. Dying in camps of disease, being shot as partisans by the Einsatzgruppen, camp revolts, etc. No more IMHO…. and yes, all very regrettable, but NOTHING in comparison to the numbers of deaths inflicted on the Ukrainians by Jewish Communist operators….
Eric Vaughan said on February 19th, 2009 at 5:01am #

Mr. Bud Kesler, I would like to present what I think is the heart and soul of the Holocaust stories and it’ll handily fit into a paragraph.

Jews are told all this rediculous stuff so that they’ll believe that Nazism in Israel is the same as cannibalism after a plane crash in the Andes mountains. Something extremely distasteful you must do to survive. Ironically, Germans were told by the Nazis that their kind were being Holocausted in the regions given to Poland after WWI.

“What luck for leaders that people do not think.”
Adolf Hitler.
Yostie said on February 19th, 2009 at 6:40am #

Danny Ray said:

Bozh, If the stinking, pest ridden, uneducated, woman stoning, Arabs can build a bomb in that shit hole called Pakistan, surely the Hebrews can build a thousand. After all, they live in the only civilized country east of Greece.

Evidently Danny Ray never heard of Arthur Koestler’s difinitive work exposing the racial background of the Ashkenazi Jews, which is anything BUT Hebrew. Not only is their so-called ‘race’ a counterfeit, so is their ‘God’s Chosen People’ title along with Rothschild’s false Israel. Danny Ray writes pretty well, too bad he can’t think as well as he writes.
Tree said on February 19th, 2009 at 6:42am #

I think many of the comments here prove why the Holocaust cannot be discussed or its statistics challenged in any meaningful way; apparently, all we’d get is really stupid, hateful people who lack any sense of history or reality.
jz said on February 19th, 2009 at 8:11am #

Israel has a nuclear bomb beacuse the jihadist who send their young to blow themselves up for 70 virgins would not hesitate to massacre the Isrealis given a chance. You notice Isreal never boasts like the Arabs/Muslims about wiping anyone off the map or driving them into the sea. So guys answer this riddle, The Arabs lay down their weapons there is peace, the Isrealis lay down their weapons they are dead. The rest of this commentary is all BS.
expat8 said on February 19th, 2009 at 10:42am #

It has been mentioned sporadically above but I think this is a very important aspect of the narrative to keep in mind:

disregarding the argument about the degree of falsification – for there has certainly been much as even the historians at Yad Vashem have often confirmed – the narrative is about more than what happened to Jews, although of course this is a core part of it.

Think back to 1945. The Allies have won and are all together in Germany conducting war crimes trials as part of a) making a new and harmless Germany in the heart of Europe and b) establishing the post-war Western order, including having Soviet Russia engolloping half of what used to be Europe. In order to achieve this victory several things happened:
a) the enemy (Germany) was not only demonised during the war – a perfectly normal thing – but afterwards. There were two principal accusations:
1) that they provoked an unnecessary (and bloody) war for purely selfish, and therefore criminal, reasons &
2) that they perpetrated ghastly ‘crimes against humanity’ in Kafka-esque ‘concentration camps’ where mass murder was systematically practiced mainly by diesel and cyanide gassings, i.e. ‘industrial mass murder’.

1. Read Viktor Suvorov’s ‘Icebreaker’ in which, using personal accounts painstakingly collected over decades plus the archives opened in Russia after the USSR regime fell, there is 0% doubt that Stalin was planning a pre-emptive attack on Europe whose aim was not just to conquer Germany but the West. In other words, Germany’s attack on Russia was indeed largely defensive even if Hitler did want to keep most of the central regions to expand Germany’s ‘breadbasket’. Germany was the most populous and industrialised nation in Europe and had a food problem, a known factor for many decades. Secondly, it was Britain and France (in cahoots with the US and Russia) that declared war on Germany and threatened her Western flank. Hitler (read the White Paper) had offered workable, generous terms to solve the Polish-German problem, which was real. These were never seriously discussed. His aggression against Poland was illegal on some level, but not necessarily a cause for world war nor did it justify the extraordinary level of destruction that followed.
2. The war crimes accusations, mainly the ‘industrial killings’ charge not only indite Germans as the guilty party, but more importantly they cover over the crimes perpetrated by the victors. By focusing all attention on ‘those demons over there, the Germans, those monsters’, nobody paid any attention to what WE had done. What had we done?

a) started the war on the Western Front
b) Russia was ready for a massive invasion of Europe scheduled for early July 1941 on the Eastern Front, something planned many years in advance, with over 1,000,000 offense-only paratroopers and flying tanks staged and ready to rumble two weeks after the Germans pre-empted them with a desperate attack that almost worked.
c) Russian war crimes against Poles (Katya is just one small example), Ukrainians, their own soldiers and of course Germans were never the subject of enquiry
d) the unprecedented mass slaughter effected by the Allied bombing campaigns against Germany ( which Britain initiated, not Germany) using phosphorous and perfecting the art of creating ‘fire storms’ perpetrated a veritable ‘holocaust’ (death or sacrifice by fire) on mainly civilian women and children. They were burnt alive. Pavements were so hot in Dresden they melted. The updraft so violent bodies were found in large trees fifty feet above ground level. This was not a subject of enquiry in terms of ‘war crimes’ (nor were Nagasaki and Hiroshima of course even though the Japenese had already offered to surrender).

So: again leaving aside the arguments about what parts of the official narrative are true or false, the simple fact is that it was used in 1945 and is still used today to paint over the crimes of the victors by casting the adversary as a sub-human demon, aka ‘Nazi’. So the point here is that this story is used by far more than Jewish partisans.

Consider this: the vast majority of American citizens supported the recent invasion of Iraq. Reliable estimates from Lancet and others put the death toll at well over a million now, and about 4 million have left the country or are ‘internally displaced’, meaning they have left their homes and are on the road, bunking with family elsewhere, or in tent communities. So something like one Iraqi in five has been killed or displaced by our invasion. Countless children have been killed and maimed. Countless jobs lost. Countless businesses built up over decades ruined. Countless diseases inflicted from DU and other toxins.

And yet: thanks to the Holocaust narrative which successfully depicts the US as being on the side of the good guys in WW II, even though we have just killed or displaced at least one fifth of an entire country, we still believe we are the ‘good guys’ because we were the ones who stood up to those filthy ‘Nazis’ who had people stand in showers, naked and helpless, and then gassed them to death and burned them in ovens, some of them alive.

So the point of this long post is to argue, hopefully in a convincing fashion, that this story serves many more purposes than those exploited by Jewish nationalists. I think it would be more productive for WW II revisionism to focus less on the Jews and more on the Allies in order to set the record straight. That is our responsibility (speaking as an ex-Brit here and Canadian); our own housekeeping. If in the course of getting this straight it also gets revealed that most of the stories shortly after the war (and now decades later) were exaggerations perpetrated in order to cover up our own crimes, so much the better. But first we need to deal with how this narrative is used to justified American crimes this day, this minute, this second, right now.

That is why it is still an important story and a very important, living, urgent issue.
kalidas said on February 19th, 2009 at 10:50am #

Gideon, some may suggest the name Abraham, for example, is a conflation of the name Brahma.

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0001/ET25-5336.html

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0002/ET21-5523.html
Barry said on February 19th, 2009 at 11:19am #

JZ – The Palestinians had no weapons for almost a hundred years. The Brits killed them by the hundreds at the behest of the Jews. Since then Jews have killed tens of thousands of them. Now the Jews complain that the Palestinians use weapons – if you can call home made rockets weapons.
Shabnam said on February 19th, 2009 at 11:52am #

Look at weapon of mass destruction used by Hamas, and compare it with thousands of modern weapons used by the zionists.

http://www.asriran.com/fa/pages/?cid=61361

Please read “The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and its Heritage” by Arthur Koestler to see t these zionists ARE NOT ORIGINATED FROM PALESTINE. They are colonists like those Europeans who went to Americas and took over the region.
Brian Koontz said on February 19th, 2009 at 6:49pm #

In reply to David:

“yet if genocide was their goal shouldn’t they have already easily entirely ethnically cleansed the defenseless Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. After all Israel is efficient, ruthless and cunning, why are they taking so long to complete a genocide if this is their true goal?”

Precisely because they are efficient, ruthless, and cunning.

The project of Zionism is not just about the extermination and driving out of the Palestinians – it’s doing so without upsetting the global community and their own people. It’s this latter part which leads them to complex machinations and a very slow genocide.

The problem is not killing all the Palestinians. That’s easy. The problem is getting away with the crime. Zionists are building a political reality in the world so that they are successful in that world *during* and especially AFTER they’ve annihilated the Palestinians.

Any criminal can tell you that committing a crime is easy. It’s evading detection and capture that’s difficult.

An important question for Zionists has long been: “How will the world view us after the Palestinians are gone?”

Zionists examined America – examined how through American media and long-term economic domination America built a positive global image, despite the country being built on native American burial grounds and corpses with American settler weapons embedded. Zionists use the same propaganda tools and media manipulation as their father figure does.

It wants the same results, and very well might get them unless they are stopped.

This is the real reason America supports Zionism – not out of some pro-Jew or anti-Arab bias but because there is a deep recognition of the imitation by Zionists of American settlers – it’s PATRIOTISM among Americans, including much of the American left, that causes Americans to fade away with a sigh at Zionist atrocities. How can they destroy this monstrosity, when their very homes, their economic well-being, their global status, is built in the same way?

This is the fundamental success of the Zionist concept. Zionists are merely Americans, version 2. Oh brave new world…
Greg said on February 19th, 2009 at 10:47pm #

How great it is to have the internet as a platform to freely publish opinions outside of other media.
Mannstein said on February 20th, 2009 at 9:41am #

Holocaust, holocaust, holocaust, I’m all holocausted out, as a British historian claimed some time ago.
Tom said on February 20th, 2009 at 11:11am #

Jews who believe in these holocaust laws are really functional schizophenics. The danger of illegitimizing and criminalizing speech is that it stops facts from being uncovered and discussed except those facts that are approved. The Catholic Church stood against the Solar Centric model of the solar system and against Darwinism for centuries and lost much of its religious credibility. The jews who attempt to use the holocaust for political and religious empowerment will see a similar backlash…possibly even the creation of yet another holocaust.

The jews use the holocaust justification in the media, and for cohesiveness in their community, and cohesiveness for Israel, and business/hiring, and for political power etc etc….then say that such jewish power is false and reminiscent of the protocols of zion. In the end Hitler was dangerous because the jews gained so much power in Germany and Europe….that Hitler broke through to the truth that the average people knew, then the people looked at that truth and once they stopped believing the jews…Hitler no longer had to prove himself factual…the honus was on the jews.

The jews are setting themselves up for the same with their power in US, Europe, Canada, etc….they are adopting a media, political and foreign policy coupe…and the tide will eventually turn…and when they lose power…it will come back to them and they will have no one but themselves to blame.
Michael Hardesty said on February 20th, 2009 at 11:47am #

The very name “holocaust” is a lie. Maybe one million Jews died in Europe during the Second World War but they died of disease in the camps in the last two years and shootings on the eastern front in the
early years after Germany invaded the USSR. It was a tragedy but it pales next to the millions killed in Germany and Japan in a literal conflagration (definition of a holocaust) caused by the US-UK mass
bombing, not to mention the militarily unnecessary atomic bombings.
People “know” so much that isn’t so as Mark Twain noted. Read the works of Germar Rudolph, Carlo Mattogno, Paul Rassinier, Robert Faurisson, Arthur Butz, Jurgen Graf, Walter Sanning and a few others.
They don’t send flat earthers to prison, the Stalinist apologists for this
criminal practice like Angela Merkel are beneath contempt. Stalin killed in the tens of millions and Mao probably over a hundred million
but all the US leftists who uphold those mass killers are not imprisoned
nor should they be. Noam Chomsky is still denying Pol Pot’s genocide in Cambodia as well as the hundreds of thousands killed by Uncle Ho.
While it’s true that Israel exploits this “gas chambers, six million, planned extermination, Anne Frank hoax diary nonsense” the issue here is quite apart from Israel’s legitimacy or not. It’s a search for the truth which ideologues of all stripes abhor. David Irving was never a holocaust revisionist nor does he even grasp the arguments of same.
He’s an opportunist used to making big bucks writing colorful histories
full of less than necessary details in many instances. You can go to the
CODOH or IHR or VHO websites to download and/or books & essays on
this subject. IHR is run by a dubious character who is not a revisionist
but that doesn’t preclude many good sources therein along with a few
silly ones. For the record I’m a small l libertarian and a small o objectivist who abhors statism in any form. America’s history is also
violent and bloody as well as having many good aspects. Rather than
develop arguments to document my conclusions I am referring people to the original sources because the wheel does not need to be reinvented here nor is there enough space. I salute the editors of this forum for providing a free speech space.
jz said on February 20th, 2009 at 3:46pm #

Barry darling you never responded to my riddle about what happens to the Israelis if they lay down their weapons. It is really as simple as that. Or what would happen to the Israelis if the Palestians Allah forbid had a nuclear weapon. The Israelis would not even be able to hide behind woman and children do like those brave Hamas warriors. And where do you get your info from. The Brits are for the most part anti-Semitic snots just like you.
Oh by the way any gay friends? Gee they would do great under the Hamas. Your wife- the only good thing about Hamas- she would to stay barefoot and pregnant.
jz said on February 20th, 2009 at 3:48pm #

Oops I am sorry I thought I was logging on to a liberal/left wing website- I did not know this was a Neo Nazi one.
bozh said on February 20th, 2009 at 4:12pm #

jz,
in all respect, your ‘question’ about israel laying their arms dwn is just hunting for the snark.
a qusetion to be evaluated as a question must be answerable with either ” i know” or “i don’t know”. but to a nonevent, no answer is applicable; save may be “shutta your face”.
in short, no one knows the future. that much you ought to know.

in addition, i do not know of a person who demands Israel lay dwn a pistol let alone any arms.
i, on the other hand, propose a military-econo-diplomatic equilibrium bwtn pals and their enemies for only then wld pals be taken serioulsy.

your ‘qustion’ has a semblance of a question; in reality; you’re just, tho tacitly, predicting an event. thnx
bozh said on February 20th, 2009 at 4:19pm #

if pals had an N-bomb they cldn’t use it in palestine. israel may have N-bomb(s) but cannot use it in palestine.
and if US or israel wld use N-bombs against iran, i am not predicting anything.
but go ahead, try it. i am 79 yrs old; i had enough of the damn zionists, fascists, plutocrats, and land stealers. i want to go, but quickly. thnx
bozh said on February 20th, 2009 at 4:55pm #

anarko, respectfully,
serbia was strongly imperialist. it atacked slovenia in ‘91 but after a weak left slovenia because there are few serbs in slovenia.
in ‘91 it attacked croatia then in ‘92 it attacked bosnia.
in ‘87 it unilaterlly abrogated kosovo autonomy and in ‘99 expelled lostsof kosovars.
croatia was also imperialist but not to the degree that serbia was. Ustashe in ‘41 wanted all of bosnia; croatian and serb partisans wanted bosnia to be federal republic of yugoslavia.
there was no reason to break up bosnia no more than there is a reason to break up switzerland.
neither france nor germany had agitated for breakup of switzerland. canada, UK, US, france, russia have always suported serbs as either the master folk or in their quest for greater serbia.
the volte face towards serbia happened in ‘94 when US rethinks the situation and sees that it can get slovenia, macedonia, kosovo, montenegro, and croatia onside and eventually serbia as well.
the word “balkanization” is a dysphemism and a massive distort of reality and a futile deterrant to rightful independence of yugoslav republics. thnx
Barry said on February 20th, 2009 at 5:06pm #

Jz darling – It’s not your riddle, its a silly cliche that goes back years. What happened over the decades after 1967 when the Palestinians had no weapons is that Israel killed them and took their land. It’s as simple as that. As far as Israel laying down its weapons…as if! The Zyonz were provided with guns from the gitgo – now they are provided with the biggest of guns. No chance of them laying down their guns – not when they want land more than they want peace.
I don’t think you should balance your empty case for Israel on the backs of Hamas’ religious values. When the Pals have their own state they will work out their own values. Besides, you had your chance to deal with a very secular PLO for several decades. You blew it – and now wander why a conservative religious group has emerged. No matter – The right to self-determination applies to Palestinians as it does to any other people.

Hey, I’m hurt – you called me a snot.
Barry said on February 20th, 2009 at 5:12pm #

My forthcoming book: ‘How the Jews won Palestine’

The Jewish genocide plan was known as Plan Dalet, the fourth of such elimination plans. Many Palestinians in Haifa were literally driven into the sea where they drowned, others driven into the desert, where they perished as well.
Haifa, a mixed Arab/Jew town was the Jewish terror gangs first urban target in ‘47. Jews shelled and sniped Arab workers. They poured burning oil on the roads, and when Pals emerged from their homes, they machine-gunned them. Terror gangs sent their cars to Palestinian repair shops filled with explosives. They threw bombs at factory workers. This is how Israel came into being – repeated all over the country.

In Palestinian villages similar attacks were carried out by the Jews. The usual method was to blow up as many houses as possible, bomb them with mortars and rockets – but also loudspeaker broadcasts of poison gas warnings and atomic weapons. In quick succession, Palestinian towns – Tiberias, Haifa, Jaffa, Acre and Arab Jerusalem were emptied.

In the words of Yigal Allon, ‘hero of “Israeli War of Independence.”‘ He says, “we need to clean the inner Galilee” (of Arabs, of course). Yigal asked Jewish *friends of the Arabs* to tell them “to escape while there is still time…. The tactic reached its goal completely…. The wide areas were cleaned.”

That was Yigal Allon’s remarks on the success of Plan Dalet as outlined in the Book of Palmach. Allon concedes, that but for the belated efforts of the Arab states, ‘there would have been no stop to the expansion of the forces of Haganah.” It was all by way of mass murder and grand theft.

Israel came into possession of entire cities – farms, factories, animals, machinery, fine houses, furniture, carpets, clothes, works of art, family heirlooms of an ancient people, ten thousand shops, businesses, and rich Arab citrus holdings. —And to think that only Holocaust Jews are owed for seized assets.
Luis Cayetano said on February 21st, 2009 at 7:04pm #

“Stalin killed in the tens of millions and Mao probably over a hundred million but all the US leftists who uphold those mass killers are not imprisoned nor should they be.”

My my, what do we have here? Someone who will dismiss the killing of six million Jews as “nonsense” but who will swallow Cold War propaganda about “tens of millions murdered by Stalin”. Perhaps you’ll also tell us that the Nazi invasion didn’t really result in the deaths of 20 million Soviet citizens. Instead, the most lurid figures of “30 million” victims of communist repression are trotted out as “fact”, juxtaposed next to the supposedly far milder figures attributable to the most evil regime the modern world has known. Perhaps next you’ll be telling us that the Nazis were the primary victims of World War 2, and that Jews living in Israel should be compensating Germans.

Holocaust deniers are like creationists who argue that “evolution is a myth”. They look for any holes in the narrative and then declare the whole edifice “bankrupt”. They ignore how it isn’t ONE fact that demonstrates that something happened, but many disparate facts that mutually reinforce one another (this is why they say, with a straight face, that the burden is on those who accept that the Holocaust happened to “provide just one proof”).
Steve said on February 22nd, 2009 at 10:28am #

The Holocaust is always a hot topic for discussion. It needs to be discussed, reviewed, and thought over — not criminalized and censored as is the case in many Western country. After all WHO benefits from such draconian “denial” laws?
sastry.m said on February 22nd, 2009 at 11:22am #

The subject means self defense against accusation of guilt. Every sentient creature lives in association with its body and tries to protect it with an all conscious defense against threat for life. The attack by an accuser is one pointed in a sense to over power the victim physically and subjugate its will into submission be it animals in the wild or humans in civilization. That the Germans waged Blitzkrieg and won many initial successes during ww2 but could not subjugate the will of defenders over longer periods of time was proven by the British during Battle of Britain and the Russians in defense of Stalingrad. There may be many arguments and their counters involving military logistics and political propaganda between the allied and axis groups but the ultimate tidings made the blitz attackers become defenders and led to the unconditional surrender by Germany accepting cessation of all military hostilities against the allies. But what did all this gruesome turmoil ultimately prove? Could the human will to defend and survive against abuse and accusation be permanently coerced and subjugated? Did the Germans enjoy creating holocaust during their initial victories and increased the activity while failing on all fronts? Did they not suffer infernos of holocaust fires served by their allied desciples’ bombing blitzes? To be sure and though not to the same intensity the German people suffered a near holocaust during the thirty years war between north and southern states following Protestant Reformation. Could the Papal Authority insisting Faith in the Church prevent retaliation against fear and abuse? Among all Europeans why did only the Germans opposed and suffered upholding any conviction or faith and opposing coercion and fear? During the age of geographical explorations after Columbus did the Germans involve in any pursuits of colonialisation, slave trade using gun boat diplomacy? –(ans. they did not even have a defined nation of their own like the Belgian neighbor). Instead they immediately applied themselves to studies of cultures and languages of new horizons especially that of India, ,sanskrit and the sacred Hindu Scriptures as if they discovered the answers what their yearning souls have been searching for freedom and truth since Roman times. Did any one feared or hated the Germans during those times? Nor did the Germans as central Europeans wavered in Christian faith and the church? It was only after accession to the Throne of the second Reich by Queen Victoria’s grand son Kaiser Wilhelm-2 and his imperial aspirations like that of his grand mother’s United Kingdom and the general all round developments as a German welfare state that began attracting all animosities and ills upon the Germans beginning the birth of “Made in Germany” stampings on German products in English ports. It seems that the Germans extracted some Truth from the Indian Sacred Scriptures which say that Fear is the outcome of Ego and Ego is the result of identification of soul with the body in a manner of super imposition upon Mind and we know how the present day human minds are struggling to seek definitions between truthful and falsified projections of Reality. Therefore it did not matter the Germans who surrendered to stoic sufferings in the aftermath of the War in resurrecting a battered nation from the ruins and bear the brunt of blame and guilt with great forbearance and monitory reparations as witnessed by their starling recoveries in the 50’s and regaining central hub of European economy. At this late hour what does Holocaust denial or acceptance really mean to a people who unconditionally surrendered to military and totally to God’s Power if not placing a question mark on the wisdom of fear of the accusers and an exclamation mark on the confidence of the deniers? Jesus placed the Truth of Reality above his Ego and neither feared the Roman might nor his hateful accusers in sacrificing his body at the Holy Cross in realization of God as the eternal benefactor of Love and Compassion in all Creation.
Shaul Lewin said on February 27th, 2009 at 9:42pm #

The trivialization of the continual murder and harassment of the Jewish people has been going
on for millenniums so, why stop now, is that your
excuse for the animalistic treatment of the Jewish
people that continues into this 21st cent. that is
not even a decade old yet?
Stop your idiotic diatribes against my brothers who have
suffered more than any one peoples ever in the history
of this insane world. There may be some who are bad but
counting the rest of you hobgoblins they are but saints and angels. Many of us in the United States are of the
lost 10 tribes sent out from Eretz Israel because of our
failure to obey
Dave Libori said on March 3rd, 2009 at 11:55am #

Luis Cateyano says:
Then there’s the truly lurid and disgusting: “To claim that Jesus was a Jew, is like saying that the first human was a monkey. Jesus was the first Christian!”

Hitler would have been proud of you.

Why do you bring Hitler into this?

I said this only because I believed that a Jew is a Jew because of his religeous belief. Just as a Christian is a Christian because of his beliefs. So to say that Jesus is a Jew rather than a Christian certainly calls up my above analogy. It is generally accepted that humans evolved from primates, so the parents of the first “human” are still considered monkeys in that context. Or would you prefer I say: ” Abraham was a pagan”?
What your line of argumentation shows, is that you are simply not interested in a rational discourse and resort to ad hominem attacks on anything that does not fit into your “Everythingh good must be Jewish” conviction.
Tree said on March 3rd, 2009 at 12:18pm #

Dave Libori, a rational discourse should include rationale. You might want to remember that as you spin your fairy tales.

Jesus, if he did in fact exist and I see no reason to think he didn’t, was not a Christian but a Jew. His lineage was described in detail as such, he attended synagogue as a youth and his primary goal was to shake up his own religion, not create a new one.

A Jew can be culturally Jewish without practicing the religion. You apparently are not aware of this glaring fact of reality but thankfully, that doesn’t change facts.
Don Stevens said on March 9th, 2009 at 6:37pm #

Ernst Zundel’s 1988 Toronto, Canada, Holocaust trial spawned 3 scientific reports that refute almost all accepted Holocaust stories:
(1) Fourth Leuchter Report – on ZUNDEL website
(2) Rudolf Report – on VHO.ORG
(3) Ball Report – on AIR-PHOTO.COM
The 1960-2008 attempt to foist the Holocaust religion on the world has been foiled by these 3 brave scientists who are now jailed (Zundel & Rufolf ), jobless (Leuchter), or shunned by other scientists (Ball).
Luis Cayetano said on March 24th, 2009 at 5:21am #

“It is generally accepted that humans evolved from primates, so the parents of the first “human” are still considered monkeys in that context.”

You clearly have no conception of how evolution works if you think that a monkey literally gave birth to a human.

“What your line of argumentation shows, is that you are simply not interested in a rational discourse and resort to ad hominem attacks on anything that does not fit into your “Everythingh good must be Jewish” conviction.”

That “conviction” is a total fabrication concocted in your head. I never even came close to expressing such a view.

And on the contrary, you’re the one who seems not to have any interest in rational discourse. You equivocate my defence of the historical veracity of the Holocaust with a love for everything Jewish.
Freddie Kevin said on April 19th, 2009 at 1:12am #

Criminalising ‘the denying or questioning’ the “Holocaust” is a distinct act of oppression and expressed intent to obstuct truth.

If there is nothing to hide, why then is the need to legislate laws that prevent any honest attempt to suppose or present an opposing view challenging the veracity of the ‘accepted’ version of the “Holocaust”.

When solid foundation of truth and belief is on you side, one never fears a differing point of view.

The whole and MOST IMPORTANT point of this article should be, no, MUST BE the RIGHT of any individual to FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

That the Western democracies upholds this as a fundamental right but at the same time decree laws to incarcerate those who by legitimate discourse have an opposing view, reeks of hypocrisy and extraneous political manipulation.
sastry.m said on May 3rd, 2009 at 2:37am #

V.I Lenin said that if the Germans want to demonstrate on a railway platform they queue up first for platform tickets! Strict compliance to rules civil/military,thoroughness and dedication with a flair for perfection are some of the virtues the German people are praised about. Again I remember a German novelist (H.Helmut Kirst?) having observed in a novel that ‘every thing goes on a large scale with the Germans’– probably implying that personal discipline counts to larger average performance. These observations were proven with Germany as the main axis power during WW2 fighting lonely against many odds,namely many fronts,over whelming enemy strength both in armor and trained men , dwindling resources and mounting losses of trained army,navy and air force units and above all incorrigible and autocratic power at the helm of govt. waiving prudent suggestions of professional people for the sake foolish personal motives and unmerited ideals. Under such extreme exigencies when maximum human and organizational resources should have to be directed to war effort in all forms of emergency requirements and with a minimum of commonsense to survive and hold on to life in the wake showering bombs no sensible people on earth including the most self resourceful super power ally- the U.S could have afforded to organize a genocide of holocaust dimensions placing herself in Germany’s position. The war waged multi directionally and the Germans were holding on all fronts with all kinds of armor supplied from their home effort and filling their hand bags with bundles of meticulous reports of front proceedings sending back home just as the German humorist Gottfried Benn observed ” geese have web feet for swimming and Germans have web bags for holding”. Is it this merit that holocaust deniers hold on to drum loudly their arguments and the holocaust holders try to hush up the noise surreptitiously?
sandra said on May 3rd, 2009 at 8:09pm #

hm. I just don’t think that going the path that denies, minimalizes, trivializes (and ultimately that is what Germar Rudolf, Ernst Zundel, and Bishop Williamson are doing even though at least the latter has mentioned that he has actually barely read anything about the topic he was making such outrageous statements about) the Holocaust is going to accomplish anything but hurt millions of Jewish people. Is that the goal? What do we have to gain with this other than cause more conflict?
This is not about the truth or about getting to the bottom of what really happened. Questioning the Holocaust is meant to provoke and to hurt. There is no other reason for it. Also, I think it is extremely disrespectful to put the above three anti-Semites in the same paragraph as Finkelstein. The above 3 have no other reason to deny, question, minimalize etc the Holocaust besides giving expression to their own anti-Semitical hatred. Finkelstein is a scholar that doesn’t want the Holocaust to be ‘abused’, especially not by idiots such as the above three. I have a feeling he wouldn’t appreciate to be compared with those. With regards to the 3 claims of Holocaust deniers:

“For most Holocaust revisionists or deniers if you prefer, their arguments boil down to three simple contentions:

1. Hitler’s “Final Solution” was intended to be ethnic cleansing, not extermination.
2. There were no homicidal gas chambers used by the Third Reich.
3. There were fewer than 6 million Jews killed of the 55 million who died in WWII.”

I can’t even believe I am reading this. So no extermination hm? Funny that nearly every testimony, document, eye witness report points towards a well organized plan of extermination. Maybe you should read the memoirs of Hoss, commandant of Auschwitz, or listen to the eichmann tapes, those recorded in Argentinia and those in jeruzalem. Maybe you should read the goring diaries, or the Franz stangl interviews (treblinka), they contain some pretty detailed reports on how the EXTERMINATION of 5-6 (does it really matter that much the exact number, is that what it is all about?) millions JEWS and OTHERS took place using the einzatztruppes, the gaschambers, mobile chambers, etc.. I would take the Holocaust deniers more serious if the evidence wouldn’t be so overwhelming. There being available millions of documents, eye witness accounts etc that all support each other makes it kind of impossible to really question it. Of course there will be memories that aren’t accurate. Like it is with everything human, people’s memories are fallible. But still, despite this, there is too much of it, and the evidence is too solid, too real, too alligned with each other to question the extent and the nature of the Holocaust. To deny this event from having taken place is like stating that the sun doesn’t exist. That is how ludicrous it is. And that is why there is an immediate suspicion of anybody engaging in it. We saw already where extreme racism can lead too.
But anyway, i think going the route of denying the suffering of millions of people will never lead to anything good. It won’t help anybody. It will simply reinforce the perception for the Jews that still to this day there is a severe underlying hatred against the jews simply for the fact that they are jews. Do we really need this? What’s the point?
And by the way, no I don’t like it either that these idiots get put in jail. I love freedom of speech as well.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
http://owlminerva.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/narrative-perspective-blindness/
bozh said on May 4th, 2009 at 5:52am #

sandra,
none of the ‘jews’ were put to death by fascists. All of the victims were poles, russians, french, yugoslav, german, hungarian, czech, roms, et al.
not a single shemite had perished in the extermination camps.
but some of these victims were of judaic cult or had judiac ancestors.

the cult was not tolerated in europe and the cult did not tolerate any other cult. So, the cultists were also sowing seeds of hatred.
it does seem that the victimhood of the cultists is being used as justification for their near-hundred yr oppression of anothere people in ex-canaan.
tnx
booneavenueboy said on May 4th, 2009 at 10:03am #

I’m a anti-zionist, non-religious Jew, and I know that the Jewish Holocaust is an undeniable fact of history. It’s also an undeniable fact that Israel and its supporters use the holocaust as an instrument of foreign policy and a means of achieving goals in Palestine. That being the case I have no problems with people like Iranian president Ahmadinejad calling into question any aspect of the holocaust. That doesn’t make him a holocaust-denier or an anti-semite. Think of Israel using the holocaust as a kind of character witness in a court of law with international opinion as the jury. Armed with the holocaust Israel claims the moral high ground and immunizes itself against prosecution for violating international laws. If you were defending the Palestinians you should be ENTITLED to cross examine the witness.
Peter Edelman said on August 11th, 2009 at 10:38am #

Freddie Kevin’s comment of April 19th is wrong. You must ask yourselves, why the German government, for example, makes Holocaust denial a crime. It’ s because it’s an incitment to violence. Germans, Jewish and not, have real-life experience with this violence unlike most of the people commenting above. They know its dangers and that it’s a real, physical threat to people and to the stability of society. Incitement to hatred and violence: powerful stuff.
Most of this pseudo scholarship/revisionism is not about what “really” happened, but is purported in its use in deligitimizing Israel and other uses, including, I’m afraid, sometimes old-fashioned Jew hatred.
Suthiano said on August 11th, 2009 at 11:34am #

“You must ask yourselves, why the German government, for example, makes Holocaust denial a crime. It’ s because it’s an incitment to violence.”

Peter, you’re argument is fallacious.

There should have been no debate about whether slavery should be abolished in the United States, because it would (did) inevitably lead to (incite) violence.

It should be illegal to re-examine whether there was a “Holocaust” of Native American’s because it will incite violence.

It should be illegal to talk about the (illegal) occupation of Iraq, because it will incite violence towards all American leadership and corporations.

They should not teach American children about how many times everyone of their Presidents has mislead them, because it would incite violence.

Slippery slope there Peter, very slippery slope.

I’m not trying to ‘deny’ any Holocaust. A Holocaust is a “burnt offering” a “sacrifice” to Yahweh. So who was doing the sacrifice and who was making it? What was to be the reward for the sacrifice?

Bozh already put it very nicely. My version of “Shoah” includes Roma and Sinti, Pole and Yugoslav, etc. Call that “revisionist”, or “inflammatory”, but I just call it accurate history. In this “version”, Nazis were actually concerned with “victory” (meaning they operated at least somewhat strategically), and were not simply pyschopaths bent on destroying multiple nationalities that followed one cult. This may work on big screen, in multiple movies pumped out every year (see most recently inglorious bastards), but not in debate about “history”.
Peter Edelman said on August 11th, 2009 at 12:15pm #

So Suthiano-
Tell us why Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany.
Peter Edelman said on August 11th, 2009 at 12:59pm #

Your argument doesn’t follow…it’s as if someone said that slavery never existed in the US, not whether it was morally this or that, or whether it should be abolished.
B99 said on August 11th, 2009 at 3:42pm #

Obviously the Holocaust should be deniable in Germany and everywhere without threat of imprisonment or fine. What is not permissible in Germany gets shunted to Iran. No point in that. The best antidote is sunshine – and the holocaust deniers will eventually lose their ground, and maybe those who would like to re-orient the Holocaust towards ALL those who were killed and those who would like to place the Holocaust in proper perspective will gain.
Peter Edelman said on September 1st, 2009 at 6:19am #

September 1, 2009 Tuesday
Late Edition – Final

Gaza: Cleric Denounces Possible Holocaust Education

BYLINE: By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

SECTION: Section A; Column 0; Foreign Desk; WORLD BRIEFING MIDDLE EAST; Pg. 6

LENGTH: 93 words

A Hamas spiritual leader said Monday that teaching Palestinian children about the Nazis’ murder of six million Jews would be a ”war crime.” The leader, Yunis al-Astal, lashed out after hearing that the United Nations Relief and Works Agency was considering the introduction of Holocaust lessons in some of the 221 schools the United Nations runs in Gaza. Adding the Holocaust to the curriculum would amount to ”marketing a lie and spreading it,” Dr. Astal wrote in a statement. An Israeli government spokesman, Mark Regev, said the comments were ”obscene.”
Hue Longer said on September 1st, 2009 at 6:38am #

Peter,

I get that you think the worst thing that ever happened in the history of the planet was the intentional killing of Jews during the 30’s and 40’s…but do you honestly believe that the victims of Israel should honor the same opinion?
Peter Edelman said on September 1st, 2009 at 9:21am #

To Hue Longer-
first of all I did not say what you said I did…that is was the worst thing
secondly, this Hamas guy didn’t say what you did either. He said it didn’t happen at all.
It’s people like you who think the Palestinians displacement is the worst event in History. Maybe you should have a look at Darfur, the Congo and many other examples, including the genocide that we have done to the native people in the US
b99 said on September 1st, 2009 at 9:37am #

peter – There are a number of reasons why a person might focus on the ‘Palestinians displacement’ – some very material, like US taxpayer money, or its relationship to Arab/Muslim resentment of US policy and the resultant events of 9/11/01. As for myself, I DO think that the genocides of Darfur and the Congo are major crimes against humanity – but I know that while the US may ignore them or tacitly permit them, only Israel has achieved the status of being celebrated for its atrocities. That has to stop.

While I think it is ridiculous to deny the Holocaust – I certainly don’t think it should be illegal to do so, that only makes it fester – and to seek outlets, like Iran, a nation that need not have put itself in the middle of what should essentially be a European or Western discussion.

So are you suggesting that both Holocaust denial and ‘Palestinian Displacement ’should be off-limits for discussion?
Peter Edelman said on September 1st, 2009 at 9:47am #

“discussion” is one thing and basic facts are another
Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from Palestine in the 1940’s. Between 5 and 6 million Jewish people were killed as Jews, including more than 1 million children as Jews in the Hitler period. These are facts.
b99 said on September 1st, 2009 at 10:32am #

Peter – Actually, the number of Palestinians killed by Israel is at the very very minimum – 60,000. That’s not insignificant. The number of Palestinians maimed for life is in the hundreds of thousands, the numbers imprisoned similar. These are not trivial numbers – and the offense for being punished thusly is that they exist in a land that Jews have designated for themselves only.

But more important than the numbers is the race-based nature of the persecution. As you know, when oppression is race-based, there is nothing to be done about it, no behavior the victim can adopt that will allay the perpetrator. The Palestinians are slain for not being Jews. They are harrassed, evicted, displaced, rounded-up, imprisoned, tortured, shunted-aside, and discriminated against for not being Jews. That millions of Jews were killed by the Nazis does not legitimate Israel’s behavior. There is no free pass – not for Israel, nor its defenders.

You will not stop Holocaust deniers by making it illegal to deny it. All that accomplishes is confirmation of a privileged position of Jews in the pantheon of slaughtered people – of which there are many.
Peter Edelman said on September 1st, 2009 at 2:07pm #

Any comment on the millions of Germans who were expelled from what’s now Poland and the Czech Republic after WWII and its legitimacy? Talk about race based…As for the privileged position of Jews, who would want such privileges? As for Jews, where are the Jews of Syria, Egypt, Iraq and Algeria, which had substantial Jewish populations until recently in history? Israel gets a free pass? That’s news to me. It’s the most vilified country in the world. In the world of the oppressed it seems to me that the Palestians are privileged considering that unfortunately, they are actually a small part of the number of refugees in the world. Ironically, many Jewish refugees have been settled in Israel.
Hue Longer said on September 1st, 2009 at 2:42pm #

Peter,

The genocide against Palestinians is indeed the worst thing to ever happen to Palestinians-and it’s still happening.

It’s absurd to force them to recognize a “worse” one and insane to expect them recognize the one done to the people brutalizing them. Your fallacious argument would sound better if it were Germans being ethnically cleansed by European Jews. Of course Israel knows it’s absurd and insane but not many in their audience understand anything but “holocaust denial”.
B99 said on September 1st, 2009 at 3:04pm #

The expulsion of Germans from their former countries was done in a fit of pique by countries that had been victimized by the Nazis. Lebensraum was a by-word of the Nazis in no small measure because German populations had been expanding eastward over the centuries, thus Hitler could pretend these were abused populations. The expulsions, race-based they were, put an end to that ‘demographic’ problem in most of Eastern Europe.

The Zionists want the privilege – that’s who. They have fought (and won) the privilege of banning denial of the Holocaust. What other group has gained such lawful backing for its cause?

Jews of the nations you name – who incidentally were largely Arab to begin with and had lived gainfully with Muslims for centuries – were urged to make aliyah, that is ‘return’ to Israel. The appeal of this to Arab-Jews was only evident when Israel’s relations with its neighbors soured after it killed and expelled 750,000 Arab inhabitants of Palestine. Would you think that good relations could prevail after the Jews committed genocide of an Arab population? It’s not as if Israel did not go out of its way to insure bad relations. Israel blew up synagogues in Iraq and its undermining of Jewish-Arab relations in Egypt ended no earlier than revelations of the Lavon Affair.

Yes, Israel is likely the most vilified country in the world. After being gifted with a country by Europeans, largely out of Holocaust guilt and anti-Arab racism; and after it was permitted to join the UN without fulfilling its requirement to repatriate the Palestinians it evicted; it continued to attack its neighbors until it had lost virtually all world sympathy by 1973. Only the US remained its ally, and Israel itself is the ally of no country. Yet the world looks the other way while Israel carries out a long term slow genocide on its indigenous population. That’s Israel’s Free Pass. And Zionists on this site and elsewhere demand that ‘the only democracy in the Middle East’ be held to a different standard – the standard that criticism of this state is anti-Semitic. Can you tell me why that is?

Jewish ‘refugees’ have been settled on Palestinian land, in Palestinian homes, using Palestinian resources. That has been their reward for making aliyah. These same ‘refugees’, whose plight the Palestinians had nothing to do with, turn around and spit (or actually, shoot) on Palestinians.
B99 said on September 1st, 2009 at 5:44pm #

Peter – Here’s the real question. Anybody on DV who talks about this issue at all at some point confesses to where they stand. How about you? After having confiscated 78% of historical Palestine by 1949 and confiscated the rest of Palestine in 1967 please tell us what kind gesture you would have the Palestinians take so as to please their successors. Would you like them to go away entirely and leave the Jews unmolested? Or would you just like them to stay in the little compounds that Israel has designed for them? Or is it just possible that given the outline of history to date – it might be time for the Israelis to make the grand gesture? Ball’s in your court.
Concrete man said on November 13th, 2009 at 1:31am #

The URL is here. I found some parts of the books a bit out of wack, but overall an amazing indictment of the level of lying on the part of the Jewish controlled western establishment. Makes me sick to my stomache the double standards and hypocrisy these people are up to.

http://www.texemarrs.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=catalog&Product_Code=bboa_greater_miracle

A Greater “Miracle” Than The Lost Ten Tribes Discovered…—The Dead “Six Million” Uncovered…!
“Shhh!—It’s against the law to say that.”
Is the Jewish “Holocaust” a massive fraud? Did six million really die? This excellently documented book exposes the Zionist’s outrageous mind control scheme to twist and distort historical truth for political and financial advantage. The Holocaust “dogma” is proven to be a racket perpetrated by unscrupulous, ungodly power-brokers.

The author, Brian Alois Clèraubat, has bravely put his life on the line by writing this book, which will surely become a scholarly classic.

Warning: This book is not available in any bookstore in the world—not even on Amazon.com. This subject is so hush-hush and forbidden that in many countries in Europe and elsewhere, anyone who agrees out loud with the author’s facts will be tried and sent to prison for a “thought” and “speech” crime. Fortunately, in America the Zionist Big Brother Brigade does not yet have the power to stop you from discovering the truth. However, we recommend you rush your order for this hard-to-find-book, “A Greater Miracle” today, before the Obama thought-police make freedom of speech a crime here, too!

544 pages • Brian Alois Clèraubat • $25.00
peter waine said on November 13th, 2009 at 2:56am #

The simple question to as is Does the truth need to be backed up by a prison term? if it is self evident the truth will stand all by itself for it needs no laws.

Its is Ironic is it not that Israel’s first prime minister Mr Ben Gurion accepted that the Palistinians was the true Jews of Palastine and had converted to Islam and now Israels Zionist butchers are in fact still continuing the holocaust of real Jews the Palistinians.

Pitty there is no one to jail these ethnic cleansers and a pitty no country is prepared to attack Israel and regime change it for thier constant breaking of UN resolutions and its constant attacks on it’s neighbours.
Rogier said on November 13th, 2009 at 4:07am #

There is no doubt the jews were treated very badly in Europe during WW2. There were camps, illnes, starvation etc. … but nowhere have i found 1 single evidence of systematic gassing of jews in the camps. And please…a photo of people standing in a line in the camps is NOT evidence of gassing. Researching finding no traces of Zyklon B in the alleged gaschambers IS evidence as in the delousing chambers they did find Zyklon B.
James said on November 13th, 2009 at 4:24am #

It’s now official – there’s been no actual shortage of Holocaust survivors:

‘The Israeli Prime Minister’s office recently put the number of “living Holocaust survivors” at nearly a million’ (extract from The Holocaust Industry by Norman G. Finkelstein of the City University of New York, published by Verso, London and New York, 2000, p.83).

[Googling "holocaust survivor" supplies 1,710,000 items]
James said on November 13th, 2009 at 4:26am #

See Wikipedia article: List of Holocaust survivors :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holocaust_survivors – quote:

“There are many famous Holocaust survivors who survived the Nazi genocides in Europe and went on to achievements of great fame and notability. Those listed here were, at the very least, residents of the parts of Europe occupied by the Axis powers during World War II who survived until the end of the Holocaust (and the war). The majority of these people survived incarceration in the Nazi concentration camps, but that is not strictly necessary for the purposes of this list…”
James said on November 13th, 2009 at 4:28am #

Statement by Richard Lynn, Professor Emeritus
University of Ulster, December 5, 2005:

“I’ve checked out the six volumes of Churchill’s Second World War and the statement is quite correct – not a single mention of Nazi ‘gas chambers,’ a ‘genocide’ of the Jews, or of ’six million’ Jewish victims of the war.

Eisenhower’s Crusade in Europe is a book of 559 pages; Churchill’s Second World War totals 4,448 pages; and De Gaulle’s three-volume Mémoires de guerre is 2,054 pages.

In this mass of writing, which altogether totals 7,061 pages (not including the introductory parts), published from 1948 to 1959, one will find no mention either of Nazi ‘gas chambers,’ a ‘genocide’ of the Jews, or of ’six million’ Jewish victims of the war.”
James said on November 13th, 2009 at 4:30am #

Elie Wiesel vs Encyclopaedia Britannica

Wiesel has been one of the most prominent spokesman for the very sizeable group of people known as Holocaust survivors. [According to Norman Finkelstein of the City University of New York in his book The Holocaust Industry published in the year 2000, ‘The Israeli Prime Minister’s office recently put the number of "living Holocaust survivors" at nearly a million’ (p.83)]. Wiesel has chaired the US Holocaust Memorial Council and has been the recipient of a Congressional Gold Medal and Nobel Peace Prize..

Time Magazine, March 18 1985:

‘How had he survived two of the most notorious killing fields [Auschwitz and Buchenwald] of the century? “I will never know” Wiesel says. “I was always weak. I never ate. The slightest wind would turn me over. In Buchenwald they sent 10,000 to their deaths every day. I was always in the last hundred near the gate. They stopped. Why?”

Compare this with Encyclopaedia Britannica (1993), under ‘Buchenwald’:

“In World War II it held about 20,000 prisoners.. Although there were no gas chambers, hundreds perished monthly through disease, malnutrition, exhaustion, beatings and executions.”
James said on November 13th, 2009 at 4:33am #

Interesting arithmetic – the incredible/uncredible numbers:

Let’s have a look at a typical account by one of the seemingly endless number of survivors: Olga Lengyel’s Five Chimneys: a woman survivor’s true story of Auschwitz (Granada/ Ziff-Davis, 1947, 1972).

The blurb on the cover of the book quotes the New York Herald-Tribune: “Passionate, tormenting”. Albert Einstein, the promoter of the US construction of the bombs used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is quoted as offering “You have done a real service by letting the ones who are now silent and most forgotten speak.”

According to Lengyel, ‘After June, 1943, the gas chamber was reserved exclusively for Jews and Gypsies.. Three hundred and sixty corpses every half-hour, which was all the time it took to reduce human flesh to ashes, made 720 per hour, or 17,280 corpses per twenty-four hour shift. And the ovens, with murderous efficiency, functioned day and night. However, one must also reckon the death pits, which could destroy another 8,000 cadavers a day. In round numbers, about 24,000 corpses were handled each day. An admirable production record, one that speaks well for German industry.’ (Paperback edition, pp80-81). [No trace of any remains of or in ‘death pits’ has been found.]

This implies almost 100,000 corpses per four working days, or a million in 40 days, or six million in 240 days (eight months).

Could this claim be a misprint?

Kitty Hart, in spite of her name a Jewish survivor born in Poland, fully confirms these figures:

‘Working around the clock, the four units together could dispose of about 18,000 bodies every twenty-four hours, while the open pits coped with a further 8,000 in the same period.’ (p 118; Return to Auschwitz – paperback edition by Granada (1981, 1983).

According to the cover blurb, ‘The subject of the award-winning Yorkshire television documentary of the same name.’ ‘Both engaging and harrowing…an important addition to the growing holocaust literature, very little of which conveys so courageously both the daily torment and the will to survive’ – Martin Gilbert, The Times.

Martin Gilbert, indefatigable Jewish campaigner on behalf of the ‘Holocaust’ and biographer of Winston Churchill, adds to the rich flavour and makes his own numerical claims, certainly not without chutzpah:

In his book Auschwitz and the Allies (1981) he states

‘The deliberate attempt to destroy systematically all of Europe’s Jews was unsuspected in the spring and early summer of 1942: the very period during which it was at its most intense, and during which hundreds of thousands of Jews were being gassed every day at Belzec, Chelmo, Sobibor and Treblinka.’ (p.26).

If we assume a minimum figure of 200,000 per day, this amounts to say a million a five-day working week, or 6 million in six weeks, and this does not include the rather awe-inspiring claims for Auschwitz put forward by Hart and Lengyel with Gilbert’s blessing.
James said on November 13th, 2009 at 4:36am #

It’s Official – No Actual Shortage Of Holocaust Survivors

Extracts from The Holocaust Industry by Norman G. Finkelstein of the City University of New York (published by Verso publishers, London and New York, 2000):

On page 83 Finkelstein notes that ‘The Israeli Prime Minister’s office recently put the number of “living Holocaust survivors” at nearly a million.’

On page 127 he further notes ‘If 135,000 former Jewish slave laborers are still alive today, some 600,000 must have survived the war. That’s at least a half-million more than standard estimates.. If Jews only constituted 20% of the surviving camp population and, as the Holocaust industry implies, 600,000 Jewish inmates survived the war, then fully 3 million inmates in total must have survived. By the Holocaust industry’s reckoning, concentration camp conditions couldn’t have been that harsh at all; in fact, one must suppose a remarkably high fertility and remarkably low mortality rate.. If, as the Holocaust industry suggests, many hundreds of thousands of Jews survived, the Final Solution couldn’t have been so efficient after all exactly what Holocaust deniers argue. (pp127-8). ‘

‘Both my father and my mother were survivors of the Warsaw ghetto and the Nazi concentration camps.. One of my father’s lifelong friends was a former inmate with him in Auschwitz, a seemingly incorruptible left-wing idealist who on principle refused German compensation after the war. Eventually he became a director of the Israeli Holocaust museum, Yad Vashem. Reluctantly and with genuine disappointment, my father finally admitted that even this man had been corrupted by the Holocaust industry, tailoring his beliefs for power and profit. As the rendering of the Holocaust assumed ever more absurd forms, my mother liked to quote (with intentional irony) Henry Ford: “History is bunk.” (ibid. p7).

‘The Holocaust proved to be the perfect weapon for deflecting criticism of Israel’ (ibid p30).

‘Much of the literature on Hitler’s Final Solution is worthless as scholarship. Indeed, the field of Holocaust studies is replete with nonsense, if not sheer fraud.’ (p 55).

‘Given the nonsense that is turned out daily by the Holocaust industry, the wonder is that there are so few skeptics’. (p 68). …

To conclude:
‘The Holocaust may yet turn out to be the “greatest robbery in the history of mankind”.. The Holocaust industry has clearly gone berserk.’(p 138-9). …
James said on November 13th, 2009 at 4:41am #

The politically incorrect six million

Alexander Solzhenitsyn had this to say of the Soviet system which was deemed worthy of recognition as one of “our” Allies fighting for “Democracy” against the “Dictators” in WW2:

“This was a system which, in time of peace, artificially created a famine causing SIX MILLION PERSONS to die in the Ukraine between 1932 and 1933. They died on the very threshold of Europe. And Europe didn’t even notice it. The world didn’t even notice it. SIX MILLION PERSONS!”

(Alexander Solzhenitsyn Speaks to the West (1978) p 16)

Stalin’s first Five-Year Plan (1928-32) sought to bring about the ‘collectivization of agriculture’ in accordance with the ‘abolition of property in land’ put forward in Karl Marx’s Communist Manifesto. In the period before the Revolution millions of independent peasant farmers known as kulaks had their own individual plots.

When Communism was imposed on Russia, the kulaks as private property owners now stood in the way of the idea of Communism. In 1929 Stalin called for ‘the liquidation of the kulaks’, and their small family farms, animals, implements and crops were declared to belong to the state.

“The (Jewish) communist leaders Trotsky, Zinoviev and Kamenev had always argued that the peasant would never surrender enough food voluntarily, and must be coerced and, if need be, crushed” (*Paul Johnson A History of the Modern World (1983) p 268).

The Red Army and the GPU were used to implement the policy. All peasants who resisted were treated with violence. A very large number were killed or sent in cattle or freight trains to the frozen north or the desert steppes. Rather than give up their animals to the collective farms, many peasants killed and ate them. As a result, the number of farm animals in the Soviet Union was catastrophically reduced…

(Quigley, Tragedy and Hope, p 398).

The peasants stopped farming on ground that suddenly, officially, no longer belonged to them. As a result, food production decreased drastically. After a while, the cities started running out of food. Orders were given for grain to be confiscated from the peasants, whether they had sufficient for themselves and their families or not. Those caught trying to reserve food for their families were ‘severely dealt with’. By the winter of 1932-3, virtually no food was left in the countryside. By early March 1933, ‘death on a mass scale really began’ (Robert Conquest, The Harvest of Sorrow (1986) p243). The main farming areas of Russia, in the regions of the Ukraine and North Caucasus, were utterly devastated. Millions of people were forced to eat anything that was available. It was a time of terrible hunger, a catastrophic man-made famine….
James said on November 13th, 2009 at 4:52am #

Germany criminalises “Holocaust denial”, in fact any questioning of the official zionist line supported by the Arjer ‘liberal’ violently anti-Palestinian power elite in New York, for the simple reason that the Arjers have had the rest of the world mesmerised by their financial and political power. [Arjers = 'anti-racist Jewish racists']. German and Japanese cities were deliberately firebombed, burning women and children alive in hundreds of thousands – the US and British burnt their victims alive, while the Germans are alleged to have gassed them before burning them (which would, ironically enough, be a kind of euthanasia), using a procedure which is technically impossible – Professor Robert Faurisson of the University of Lyons has been responsible for proving this beyond any possibility of doubt.
Bruce Mullen said on November 13th, 2009 at 4:52am #

Can anything be more insulting to the victims of the holocaust than to prevent a complete investigation to discover the truth of this terrible event? How can we proclaim “never again” when we know so well that hundreds of millions of people have died since WW2 of wars, starvation and disease as the by product of a similar hate and greed? How can we prevent such terrible things from continuously happening all over the world if we do not know exactly what happened the first time?

Would the destruction of Palestine, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Haiti, Korea, Vietnam, Central America, most of Africa and so forth and so on have happened and still continue to happen if we truly knew what went so terribly wrong with our civilization in the 20’th century?

And certainly the holocaust must be one of the most important clues to “what went wrong”. Isn’t it about time that we use modern methods of investigation to allow our historians and criminologists to find out the entire truth about the holocaust, WW2 and ourselves?

What are the holocausters afraid of? What are they trying to hide? We owe the holocaust victims and the hundreds of millions of victims since that time the truth.. They who have died should not have died in vain. Let’s allow the lessons of the holocaust to be our salvation and not a continued reason for more of the same.

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