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1. Ofcourse
   Medium Size Shadchan

   There's a Shul in Boro Park, whose Rov spoke on Yom Tov about how Goyim will clean our shoes after Moshiach comes, and other such lowly tasks, with Goyim caretakers listening closely.

   I was thinking these statements, made in English, were not much worse than other racist remarks heard regularly from non-Jewish preachers, and criticized by us.

   I walked home sickened.

   On a similar vein, I was thinking that if G-d wants us to rejoice in the humiliation of non Jews, then after Yetzias Mitzraim, after the Mitzriim caused us much pain and degradation, we were nevertheless scolded by Hashem "Maasei Yodai Tovlim Bayom v'Atem Omrim Shira, teaching us how we have to relate to Maasei Hashem, other nations.

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. Helpful
   Joseph

   The Rov shlita is correct! And the goyim will do so willingly and happily, so even they will WANT to do all that to serve G-d.

   I agree it might have been better to say the drosha in yiddish. But unfortunately too many of us aren't fluent in it. Whether it was still worthwhile relating in English, is another shaila.

   But if you felt it was a c"h, how is repeating it on a public website which has many more hundreds plus goyish readers than the couple of goyish handymen in a small shul, less so?

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. coffee addict
   Once killed a Troll with his bare hands

   true,

   we have to be careful about our words

   everyone should realize were still in galus

   also everyone is given lips and teeth to not say whatever you think

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. Imanonov
   Member

   You are 100% right that the Rav should never have said such things. There is absolutely no need to elaborate on what will be after Moshiach's coming and specially here in Golus we have to be extra sensitive to the walls having ears.
   Just one correction. We were not scolded as our Shirah was allowed and probably even required. It were the Malochim who also wanted to sing Shirah who were rebuked.
   But that is not relevant to your observation about that Rav

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. Ben Torah
   Joseph

   Being the President's shoe polisher is a royal honor. Being the Prince's doorman is a royal privilege.

   The goyinm will be fighting over which of them gets the royal honor of serving G-d's children in any capacity.

   And the whole entire world will by then acknowledge Klal Yisroel are G-d's children, and everyone will want to help facilitate them serving Hashem in every possible way.

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. WIY
   Member

   Ofcourse
   "I walked home sickened."
   You should have been "sickened" that you completely missed the boat in what your Rav said. Its as Ben Torah says above, its an honor to serve a prince or a member of royalty.
   Maybe you just dont have enough pride in who you are?

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. Ben Torah
   Joseph

   Exactly. The correct title for this thread should have been Kiddush Hashem from the pulpit.

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. coffee addict
   Once killed a Troll with his bare hands

   Being the President's shoe polisher is a royal honor. Being the Prince's doorman is a royal privilege.

   The goyinm will be fighting over which of them gets the royal honor of serving G-d's children in any capacity.

   And the whole entire world will by then acknowledge Klal Yisroel are G-d's children, and everyone will want to help facilitate them serving Hashem in every possible way.

   Exactly. The correct title for this thread should have been Kiddush Hashem from the pulpit.

   it's true that that in the future it will be considered an honor but now it will only stir anomosity

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. Helpful
   Joseph

   Incorrect. If explained properly, the honor of serving G-d's servants, is wonderful. Besides, we are talking about a post-messiah period, and I don't think goyim are worried about -- or even BELIEVE -- that "future." And additionally, this was said in a shul of yidden on Shabbos/Yom Tov.

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    Folks, put yourselves in others shoes. We dont need to ask for more enemies. I doubt real Gedolim would have been pleased with that Drasha.

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. Helpful
    Joseph

    I doubt real Gedolim would even hesitate before saying the very same thing.

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    Helpful, why not ask even one, and then report to us with name.

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. tzippi
    Member

    Helpful, I agree with your last paragraph in the first post - not a good idea to prolong the misery. And Ofcourse, you said it. We are still in golus last time I checked and don't need to cause trouble.

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. The Big One
    Joseph

    Ofcourse, why don't you ask even one, as you've made your contrary claim first.

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. Pashuteh Yid
    Modern Chareidi Zionist

    To say something that has even the slightest chance of offending anybody or sounds the slightest bit racist is completely unacceptable. Remember that the gemara Yoma 86 clearly explains that chillul hashem is determined by the eye of the observer. It matters only what the onlooker says (Mah habriyos omros alav). If he says ploni shelamad Torah kama metukanim maaasav, diburo nachas im habriyos, etc., then that is a kiddush hashem. If he gets offended, then that is a chillul hashem. It does not say the onlooker must be a godol or a talmid chacham. It says briyos, meaning anybody, not even necessarily a Jew.

    Menschalchkeit is a universal language, and everybody knows it when they see it.

    Second of all, since the Rambam says that we really don't know what will transpire at the time of Moshiach, and that such speculation does not bring any yiras shamayim, why not focus on our task at hand which is to inspire the world, not turn it off with arrogance.

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. charliehall
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid is right.

    The idea that non-Jews will be serving us is the opinion of one Tanna, Rabbi Shimon, and is opposed by Rabbi Yishmael, who says that we must work. Rambam sides with Rabbi Yishmael.

    And in any case, any non-Jew who hears a sermon like that will do everything possible to delay Mashiach.

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. so right
    Joseph

    I'm not up to date with that gemorah, but if an "opinion" of a Tanna is as such, the Rov has every right to describe it in his drasha.

    Posted 1 year ago #

18. mw13
    Member

    Ben Torah:
    "Being the President's shoe polisher is a royal honor. Being the Prince's doorman is a royal privilege.
    The goyinm will be fighting over which of them gets the royal honor of serving G-d's children in any capacity.
    And the whole entire world will by then acknowledge Klal Yisroel are G-d's children, and everyone will want to help facilitate them serving Hashem in every possible way."

    That is my impression of what will happen as well, and I don't see a problem publicizing it. However, from the OP it sounds like that's not quite how it was presented ("Goyim will clean our shoes after Moshiach comes, and other such lowly tasks"). In other words, the Rov may have been 100% right in substance but he probably should have used a more palatable style.

    Posted 1 year ago #

19. charliehall
    Member

    so right,

    Yes and no. There are plenty of tanaim whom we don't follow and to present only those opinons and not the opinions that were accepted would come close to distorting the torah. And this may be one of those situations, as the talmud seems to admonish us not to try to follow Rabbi Shimon.

    Posted 1 year ago #

20. Ben Torah
    Joseph

    mw13, I would venture to say how I explained it, the Rov explained it. And that Ofcourse embellished its presentation here the way he did.

    The second issue is, who is Ofcourse to castigate a Rov? His Rov! Publicly. Even anonymously.

    Posted 1 year ago #

21. mdd
    Member

    Chazal, at first, did not want to write down Megilas Ester for fear of causing eiva (they agreed to it only because the events were recorded anyway by the Persian chroniclers)!! How mush more so these type of drashos!! And it matters a lot how you say it!!
    I am not commenting about this specific case, but just because a Rov did something does not mean it is right. There is such a thing as "kol talmid chacham she'ein bo deya neyvela tova heimenu"! And Goebels (Nazi propaganda minister) would have loved this drasha!

    Posted 1 year ago #

22. aries2756
    Smartness runs in my family.

    I'm sorry I agree with Ofcourse, it is not proper to make such speeches that antagonize others or put others down. That is not OUR way. What is the reason this RAV had to speak about the goyim in this fashion? Isn't there enough animosity already? Shouldn't he be promoting making a kidush Hashem at every opportunity and behaving appropriately in all aspects of our lives in order to bring Moshiach in our lifetime? What kind of speech is this and what benefit does this have to the community? Let's bring Moshicah now so the goyim will be our servants????? BE A MENTCH AND THAT WILL BRING MOSHIACH! Practice AHAVAS YISROEL and that will bring Moshiach!!!!

    There was no purpose to his speech what-so-ever and it did not need to be said. It was an empty message, one that gave them no chizuk, no instruction and no direction. It did not help them and it did not do anything to motivate them for the New Year. So again what was the purpose and what was his message? Picture this: "Tatty what did the Rabbi talk about today? Oh the Rabbi said that when Mashiach comes the goyim will be our servants." Oh I can't wait, when will Moshiach come, Tatty, what did the Rav say when will he come? Oh I don't know about that part, that wasn't the point of the message, he really was talking about the Goyim being the servants."

    Posted 1 year ago #

23. rebdoniel
    Member

    The tone of the drasha is 100% correct. The posuk says, "The stone which the builders have rejected has become the cornerstone." This applies to klal yisroel- we will emerge victorious in the acharis hayomim.

    Posted 1 year ago #

24. mdd
    Member

    Helpful and Big One, look in Megila 7A.

    Posted 1 year ago #

25. goody613
    last remaining Member

    but right now we are in golus and should not say that when goyim are there,no matter how theyll be to do it later

    Posted 1 year ago #

26. littleeema
    Member

    Being the President's shoe polisher is a royal honor. Being the Prince's doorman is a royal privilege.
    The goyinm will be fighting over which of them gets the royal honor of serving G-d's children in any capacity.
    And the whole entire world will by then acknowledge Klal Yisroel are G-d's children, and everyone will want to help facilitate them serving Hashem in every possible way====
    so do we act as princes and princesses???

    Posted 1 year ago #

27. mdd
    Member

    rebdoniel, what is your definition of hisgarus be'umos ha'oylam??

    Posted 1 year ago #

28. rebdoniel
    Member

    Provoking the nations of the world? How would that be a concern if not for people posting these things on forums such as this?

    Posted 1 year ago #

29. myfriend
    Joseph

    I don't see it being provoking, neither the speech nor this posting. Afterall, its only relevant post-apocalypse. The gentiles are not overly concerned about Jewish post-apocalypse views. I mean, just take a look at Christian post-apocalypse views of how the Jews are gonna burn in eternal hell. They are only concerned about what action you intend to take; not religious theory on the apocalypse.

    Secondly, even if they understand this point, they will come to appreciate it. That they will be honored to serve G-d in this manner. They will be doing so willingly.

    Posted 1 year ago #

30. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    myfriend, "Secondly, even if they understand this point, they will come to appreciate it. That they will be honored to serve G-d in this manner. They will be doing so willingly".

    About as honored and willing as YOU'd be to hear of a non-Jews' comfort with YOU becoming THEIR shoe-cleaner at some point in the future!

    Posted 1 year ago #

31. myfriend
    Joseph

    Ofcourse: My second point was, well, secondary. You ignored my PRIMARY (first) point.

    To address the concerns you raised about my SECONDARY point, I couldn't care less what theories they say will happen to me in the future. No, I wouldn't care if I heard a Priest or Imam say that after their messiah arrives Jews will be the Christians or Muslims shoe-shiners. Nor do I care in the least that they say that our damnation is to burn in eternal hell.

    Now read my primary point. (First paragraph, last comment.)

    Posted 1 year ago #

32. SJSinNYC
    always pleasant

    I'm going to ask some of my non-Jewish friends what they think about this.

    Posted 1 year ago #

33. so right
    Joseph

    my non-Jewish friends

    What happened to the lav of lo sechanaim?

    Posted 1 year ago #

34. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    myfriend, are you saying because its only relevant post-apocalypse you arent bothered at all by their picturing you burning in hell to a crisp? Ok, Im bothered though.

    Posted 1 year ago #

35. myfriend
    Joseph

    Why are you bothered in the least?

    BTW, Christian theology for 1,800 years is that every Jew is to damned to eternal hell for rejecting Yushke Pundrik. The only salvation is to convert to Christianity.

    Posted 1 year ago #

36. SJSinNYC
    always pleasant

    I'm being an "or lagoyim."

    Posted 1 year ago #

37. mdd
    Member

    Myfriend,there is no question that at least some non-Jews may be angered (or deeply angered) by such statements. Even the objective ones, and, for sure, the non-objective ones and soynei Isroel. And just look in Megila 7A on the topic.

    Posted 1 year ago #

38. myfriend
    Joseph

    mdd, the soynei Israel are already soynei Israel. They need nothing else to add to it. And many many non-Jews ARE angered at us rejecting Yushke.

    To the point they have been systematically genocidal murdering us for almost 2,000 years as a result.

    Must we assuage that anger with the conversion they demanded all these centuries?

    Posted 1 year ago #

39. mdd
    Member

    Did you look in Megila 7A? Chazal did not want to write down Megilas Ester, at first, for fear of provoking the Umos! They agreed to it only because it had already been recorded in the Persian chronicles. According to you -- who cares the soynei Isroel are already soynei Isroel?
    Many times murders of Jews were instigated by using statements like the one by the Rov. One can not take a peaceful matsav and jepordise it by irresponsible provocations!!
    I understand that for some people who grew up bottled up in the Yeshivishe welt, it is hard to understand how to act in the outside world. But trust me -- you are wrong on this one.

    Posted 1 year ago #

40. mdd
    Member

    And like I wrote before, myfreind, Josef Goebbels (the Nazi minister of propaganda) would have loved the drosha.

    Posted 1 year ago #

41. myfriend
    Joseph

    mdd, I assure you that Goebbels YM"S facilitated the murder of as many Jews as he could without the drasha. The drasha would do him no good.

    Especially from a Christian who believes in the eternal damnation in hell of all Jews who reject yushka. How can any Christian complain?

    Posted 1 year ago #

42. mdd
    Member

    First, did you see Megila 7A?
    Secondly, not every non-Jew is a devout Christian, and not everybody is objective. And why don't you understand, that some non-Jews could be freindly or neutral, but, if you provoke them, they may turn into soynim. What is so hard to understand??

    Posted 1 year ago #

43. myfriend
    Joseph

    "not every non-Jew is a devout Christian"

    Right. Only 85% of Americans are Christian. The religion that has a lot worse in store for the afterlife of Jews than being shoe-shine boys.

    Oh, another major chunk of the world population is Muslim. We ought to apologize to them too for thinking they will be the prince's chauffeurs post-messiah. After they declare jihad against the infidels, that is.

    Posted 1 year ago #

44. mdd
    Member

    Myfreind, many of the people are nominaly Christian + not everybody is objective and trying to dan le'kaf z'hus. There are people in the world, who, if their child hits somebody else's child -- it is o'kay. But if somebody else's child hits theirs, they get mad. Heyvanta? And you don't want to provoke those guys.

    Posted 1 year ago #

45. mdd
    Member

    And what was so provocative about the story of Ester that Chazal hesitated to write it down?

    Posted 1 year ago #

46. tzippi
    Member

    Just out of curiousity,I wonder how many people (Jew or gentile) would be proud to have their children's highest professional aspiration to be - President shoe shiner....
    Something's getting lost in the translation, on every level...

    Posted 1 year ago #

47. so right
    Joseph

    What's so hard to understand? After Moshiach, the nochrim are going to clamor to serve. They will put themselves lying on the floor and beg the Evdei Hashem to use them as a stepping stool to walk into the Beis Medrash, as we prepare to serve Hashem each morning.

    Posted 1 year ago #

48. WIY
    Member

    Tzippi
    Your misunderstanding is based on modern norms. It says that when Moshiach comes "Umalah Haaretz Deah Es Hashem" "Vchal Bnei Basar Yikreu Vishmecha" and other psukim...
    Everyone will recognize the greatness of Hashem and that we are His nation His chosen people as we said on Yom Tov "Atah Vachartanu Mikal Hamim Ahavta Osanu Vratzisa Vanu Veromamtanu Mikal Halshonos...."

    FRANKLY I THINK A LOT OF AM HAARATZUS WOULD BE CLEARED UP IF PEOPLE KNEW PERUSH HAMILOS AND HAD A CLUE WHAT WE SAY IN DAVENING!

    Posted 1 year ago #

49. Ofcourse
    Medium Size Shadchan

    so right, "What's so hard to understand? After Moshiach, the nochrim are going to clamor to serve. They will put themselves lying on the floor and beg the Evdei Hashem to use them as a stepping stool to walk into the Beis Medrash, as we prepare to serve Hashem each morning".

    Does this mean we have to rub it in their faces now? If you were them, would you want it rubbed in your face?

    Posted 1 year ago #

50. so right
    Joseph

    Like you were told earlier, people don't care about what people from other religions theological theories of what will happen to them are -- after an event they don't believe will ever even happen.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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