Zundelsite - Nizkor Exchange - Part II

This is a continuation of what we titled "Breakthrough?" and
posted previously on the Internet. Again, the correspondent is Jamie McCarthy
of Nizkor. We post his letter here in full, along with Ernst Zündel's
reply:

Jamie McCarthy of Nizkor writes:

Mr. Zuendel,

I just now noticed your "Breakthrough"
page, in which you quote my letter and respond to it. I agree fully that our correspondence
should be public, but I would appreciate your notifying me in email when you
put something related to Nizkor or myself on your web.

I infer that your response has been available since September 2, but I just
noticed it a little while ago. I will briefly respond to some of the points you
raise. I will ignore your rhetoric about the Holocaust itself; this is not the
time to discuss that.

First, I must point out that it is ironic that you refer to this call for
open discussion of your claims as a "breakthrough." I understand that
you are used to your views being suppressed in the traditional media, Mr.
Zuendel. And for the record, I note that I personally disagree with laws
against free speech (though I should point out that I do not believe the Nizkor
Project takes an official stand one way or the other on such laws). But on the
Internet, open discussion on the Holocaust or any topic is not an exception, it
is the norm. Ask Greg Raven, Bradley Smith, Fritz Berg, Michael Hoffman, or Ross Vicksell, each
of whom has participated in Usenet discussions which were of course not
censored in any way.

And I personally am all for open discussion - ask David Cole or David Irving, with whom I've corresponded via
"snail-mail." The reason that it's ironic that you call this
particular call for open discussion a "breakthrough" is that each of
those deniers - Raven, Smith, Berg, Hoffman, Vicksell, Cole, Irving - has found
it to be in their best interests to cease open discussion.

Each and every one of them has decided to leave the net, ignore my letters,
or otherwise put an end to our communication.[*]

So, Mr. Zuendel, it will indeed be a "breakthrough" if you, unlike
every other denier which I have encountered, do not turn away from this new,
free, and exciting means of helping people learn the truth through an open
exchange of ideas.

Indeed, if you would like
to begin a small "breakthrough" of your own, I suggest you post some
of your claims to the Usenet newsgroup alt.revisionism, and try to defend them
there. I guarantee you that there is no more free and open discussion forum in
the civilized world. You ask whether I have "checked out this idea"
with my "superiors." I must point out that the supposition that I
have "superiors" with whom I must confer is fallacious -- I am, as I
pointed out, the webmaster of Nizkor.

My only "superior," I suppose, would be the Director of the Nizkor
Project, Ken McVay, and I do not need to ask his permission to engage Nizkor in
any sort of dialogue with you or anyone else I see fit. You go on to imply that
perhaps Nizkor is yanking your chain: "It has been our experience in the
past that lower echelon people who are ". . . believers in the
Holocaust" are just as eager as we are to evaluate both sides of the
issue, but that, in the past, players "behind the scenes" who have
hidden agendas and political goals would not agree to a free and open
debate."

I assure you, Mr. Zuendel, that there is no one "behind the
scenes." When I request an open exchange between our two web sites, with
our material cross-linked as much as it makes sense to do so, rest assured that
I have no hidden agenda and that no one standing behind me will yank me off
this project or otherwise inhibit Nizkor from achieving these goals.

Nizkor is committed to making available hyperlinked information about the
Holocaust and about its denial, which includes links to hate material and lies
such as those you provide at your "Zuendelsite." I am puzzled by your
writing about discussing: "...how we could cross-link with you and get you
to agree to cross-link with us so that both sides could be heard equally."

As I pointed out in my email of September
1: "We have a collection of links to other sites on the web that are
related to the Holocaust and its denial, and among them, of course, yours. See
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/other-sites/denial-promotion.html." Why would you
have to "get [Nizkor] to agree to cross-link" when Nizkor has already
done so? And I assure you that getting both sides heard equally is all I intend
-- if each of our sites has links to the other at every appropriate place, I
will be quite satisfied.

In closing, I note your final paragraph: "Please give us a couple of
weeks so we can consult with other revisionists, scholars, our technical people
and with our attorneys. We will be back with a response that will be fair to
all." I am unsure why you would feel it necessary to consult with
"other revisionists" and "scholars" to decide whether or
not to honor your own calls for "letting both sides be heard" and for
the "free marketplace of ideas."

Either the Zuendelsite is firmly committed to those ideals, or it is not.
Nevertheless, a couple of weeks will give us enough time to put up our 66
replies to your 66 Q&A. Please notify me in email when you have made your
decision.

We hope to hear that you will be willing to engage us in some sort of
discourse about those subjects and others, and that you will take the first
step by joining us in cross-linking together your site's Q&A and our site's
replies.

[*] With the possible exceptions of Cole and Irving, who have
not returned my letters for several months, but who may still maintain an
interest in corresponding with me -- I don't know.

Jamie McCarthy

[email-masked] [email-masked]

Ernst Zündel Replies:

This is in response to your letter of September 11, 1995.

I am very interested in a civilized Internet exchange on matters pertaining
to the "Holocaust." I purchased a web site because, by its very
nature, it allows for such an exchange. The web site system on the Internet is
a wonderful, God-given medium whose time has come and whose time has never been
so right. A web site makes it possible - barring intimidation and even terror
tactics to have the Revisionist voice be silenced on the Internet - to offer an
alternative viewpoint to official "Holocaust" dogma by posting
well-thought-out, well-researched articles by serious scholars, historians and
researchers for public scrutiny - without being subjected to obscene, childish
shouting matches, personal character assassinations, and even
physical threats.

Let us not be so smarmy and pretend the Internet is "free." We both
know better - don't we?

When I first tried to set up a web site several months ago, my server was
immediately subjected to massive corporate pressure to cancel my account -
which is, indeed, what happened. My second server has already warded off a serious
attempt to have us kicked off of the air and only his principled stand has
prevented this, so far, from happening. There are ethnic-specific limits to
enjoying the freedom of the Internet - let us not kid ourselves. All people are
not equal on the Net.

Already there is world-wide agitation to silence the Revisionist voice.
Whether or not we will in the future be allowed to continue posting serious
articles and findings will be a fine test of the "freedom" you so
extravagantly proclaim is there for everyone. We'll see.

People don't need to be told what they should or should not believe. They
don't need to be told whom they should or should not hate. People can read.
They have brains. They can make up their minds on who has the better evidence
and, therefore, the better argument if they are given both sides of an issue,
and if they have access to serious findings. Let it for once be an honest
exchange via web sites, and let the best evidence and argument win. As you of
all people should know, news groups do not provide such a forum because many of
them exist in a sewer.

You suggest that you have driven off every Revisionist who tried
participating in alt.revisionism. Indeed you
and people of your mindset have - by your abusive, foul-mouthed methods. It
wasn't done by force of logic, scholarship, or reason. Your Internet goon squad
has never allowed a proper debate to happen. Discerning people understand full
well what's going on in groups like alt.revisionism.

They see a bunch of screeching, screaming network terrorists monopolizing
this modern medium to vilify, stifle and distort. If one subtracts barrels of
verbal obscenities being offered by your side - along with ludicrous claims by
so-called "Holocaust survivors," mediocre authors and outright frauds
that are the hallmark of such groups - very little of substance is left. We
want no part of that.

We have our goal - which is to shed light, not heat, on this subject. Our
intent, as stated above and which bears repeating, is to offer an alternate
viewpoint to the government- and media approved version of the
"Holocaust," presented in a democratic forum. Scholars and
researchers on both sides can post their replies and have the strength of their
research and logic weighted, argued and judged.

It is our hope that many intellectuals will participate - both actively by
offering their findings and passively by judging evidence. I am very willing to
extend a hand for a cultured, scholarly and respectable exchange and facilitate
an easy navigational system that would allow an open, searching mind to read,
to reflect and to compare. I am not interested in a foul-mouthed mud-slinging
contest with those who crow publicly about how they succeeded in hounding and
harassing people off of the Net. Nor will I genuflect before the
"Holocaust."

It is not yet a State religion, although some people think it ought to be -
and are working hard to make it so. Why do I consult with my attorneys and
scholars before I say or write anything? If I did to Nitzkor what you have done
to me - post your site by name as a "hate monger" site on the
Internet - I would be in prison tomorrow. You won't, because the
"Holocaust" umbrella has given you that licence - to be abusive and
unfair, yet deny me the smallest defense. "Hate laws" in Canada, as
it turns out, are not on the books to protect everyone - and certainly not
Germans who finally fight back in response to half a century of emotional
blackmail, lies and wartime propaganda posing as history. "Hate laws"
are on the books to protect those who have managed through clever overt legal
and covert psychological means to use the "Holocaust" as a political
weapon with which to club their opposition into submission and to remove
themselves and their own shady actions from review and criticism.

I see no reason to notify you what I will or will not post pertaining to the
Nizkor Project. You yourself stated that
you consider e-mail pertaining to a pro-revisionist stance to be in the public
domain. I simply took you by your word. Here is what I propose: I will create a
link to Nitzkor at the bottom of every single document we post if you are
willing to do likewise. I will not create links to specific documents to which
you choose to respond, simply because of the time and costs involved in linking
specific references. For us, this is a logistics and manpower consideration -
we simply don't have the resources to do this as you suggest. We don't have
tax-supported funds to help us in our efforts. We have a site and a system in
place.

We have set up specific departments under which we post our documents, and
we don't intend to modify our system to accommodate what you propose - namely
article-to-article links. We can automate links at the bottom of each document,
but we don't intend to hand-link every petty argument that you might choose to
throw at us. We have to husband our resources and focus on our goals - not
yours. And speaking of the major challenges we intend to put out for review -
this for the benefit of those who are new to this controversy: Revisionists
don't claim, and never have, that atrocities don't happen during war. They
happened plenty during WWII. They happened on both sides. War causes monstrous
suffering, and World War II caused suffering to both Jews and non-Jews alike.
There is no patent on suffering.

The Revisionist argument, stripped down to its barest essentials, is
threefold:

that
gassings in specificially designed, homicidal mass gassing chambers didn't
happen - the "gas ovens" are a propaganda tool,

that
there never was a Hitler order that called for a genocide of the Jews, and

that
the numbers of Jewish victims are irresponsibly inflated to boost the
reparations claims and to gain moral and political advantage globally.

No doubt additional research will uncover additional facets of this unholy
business called the "Holocaust" that has caused so much heartache
between nations.

In the spirit of cooperation I suggest that you create an up-front Table of
Contents on which you specify which document on our site you are referring to
or challenge when you post your replies. If a challenge of yours merits a
response, a proper response will be forthcoming from our scholars and
researchers, and I will gladly post it within the departments we have already
created on the Zundelsite.

If every document of ours has a link to Nizkor, and every document of yours
(or even only a Table of Contents page summarizing your replies and pointing to
your documents) has a proper link to the Zundelsite, there should not be a
navigation problem.

It remains to be seen if the Holocaust Promotion Lobby people and their
lackeys can check their ghetto mentality at the door of the Internet and engage
in a civilized discourse - or if they merely want to transfer their venom from
the talk shows, the lecture circuit and the
printed tabloid papers to the Internet. We know we have the truth on our side.

Truth cannot be destroyed. It needs no
coercion. No bombs. No arson. No "hate laws." And definitely no
obscenities.

Individual people can be hurt, have been hurt, and will no doubt be hurt
again in the future because the "Holocaust" extortion industry is
crumbling, and those who benefited from that racket are now desperately
fighting back. It's happening world-wide.

We know that. So do you.

So - will it be a civilized exchange to get to the bottom of this unsavory
business called the "Holocaust" so that some balancing and healing
between nations and people can begin, or will it be more terror, more
repression, more "hate laws" and more inflammatory rhetoric about
"hate mongering" to get the public to engage in fighting someone
else' war - which is not what Revisionists habitually do!

We will put up links to Nizkor on every single document within the next two
weeks. We urge you do likewise and hope sincerely that you will. If the
exchange proves beneficial, that would be wonderful. If it proves unproductive,
degrading and abusive, we will remove our links.

And, in conclusion, let me say that all communication, from now on, will be
official articles. I don't intend to keep up a time-consuming private
correspondence with Nizkor.

Sincerely,

Ernst Zündel