LUBAVITCH – ABOVE THE LAW IN THE U.K.
Several years ago there was a major pro-Israel rally held in London, Trafalgar Square. The Muslim activists from all the well known groups, such as the Muhaajiroon, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, Al Tajdeed, the Islamic Human Rights Commission and others applied to the City of Westminster Council for permission to have a counter-demo on the same day. Amazingly the permission was granted and the Muslims were allocated the South West corner of Trafalgar Square, in front of Admiralty Arch. This was clearly going to be an interesting afternoon.
I had arranged to meet several of my Muslim brothers at the counter demo and rather mischievously I decided to start my protest from the middle of the pro-Israel demonstration. The officially reported estimates say that there were between 6,000-10,000 zionists in attendance. They had fantastic stage equipment, the sort that top rock bands have, and lots of famous celebrities and politicians turning up to lend them their support. By contrast the Muslims numbered only 300 on this occasion, and they had a few old megaphones and some home painted banners and placards.
Needless to say the security at the event, with those 2 parties present, was spectacular overkill. Around 2,000 police had been arranged for the day, mainly dressed in riot gear and heavily concentrated around the Muslim counter demo. Police snipers were on all the roofs of the high buildings, sights trained upon the Muslim contingent.
It would appear that my starting my personal counter demo in the middle of the zionists was not a good idea after all. Especially given that I was wearing my white t-shirt that reads “MUJAHIDEEN, WARRIORS OF ALLAAH” in large black letters. Once members of the crowd began to realise what my t-shirt said, an instantaneous panic set in as the zionists tried to move away from me. Then lots of undercover security agents started running around me shouting into the radios that they were carrying.
About a minute or so later, dozens of police came charging to where I was standing. I smiled and politely asked the commanding officer if he knew where the Muslim counter demonstration was. He then had me frogmarched, with an enormous police escort and under sniper scope, to the crowd of Muslims in the counter demo. The Muslims were all wondering what was going on as the police escort got near and then some of my friends began to recognise me. When I was close enough for the Muslims to read the statement on my t-shirt they all began laughing and cheering.
Police cameramen with enormous looking lenses, maybe 12” long, were walking in the crowd of Muslims, trying to take photos of every individual present. A few young lads decided to cover their faces using scarves rather than allow the photographers to take pictures. This ‘rebellion’ resulted in the police forming baton-charging lines, complete with helmets, shields and the usual instruments of pain. The whole thing nearly descended into a full-scale riot, with the police threatening to charge the Muslims unless the boys removed their scarves and allowed pictures to be taken. Several of us negotiated between the senior police officers and the boys, so as to calm the situation down.
Then something very strange happened, which had to be seen to be believed. The Neturei Karta had been invited by the Muslims to join them in the counter demo and they had very kindly accepted the invitation, agreeing to send a deputation. So, about half a dozen Hasidic looking Jews, with curly hair, homburgs and almost all wearing thick glasses, walked across the “no mans land”, (maybe 70m) between the two groups of protestors.
The police surrounding the Muslims did not know what to do, until a senior officer signalled them to let the Jews through. They then came around the barrier containing the Muslims and the Muslims began cheering and clapping, shaking their hands and embracing them. The british police, who are notorious for being ‘intellectually challenged’, became immediately perplexed. They were looking at all these Muslims, mingled with Hasidic looking Jews, who were all waving placards and chanting anti-zionist slogans together. They did not know what to do or what to think. They genuinely looked worried and confused, some even looked upset!
And then the situation got weirder. A second group of Hasidic looking Jews crossed the “no mans land” and this time the police just stood aside and automatically let them through. I stopped them and asked them if they were from the Neturei Karta and they said yes, so I let them past me. However, they turned out to be Lubavitcher Jews from New York, and among them was one of their most staunch zionist Rabbis. Talk about crypto-Jews, this was a Lubavitch pretending to be anti-zionist Neturei Karta! What chutzpah!
As soon as the Lubavitcher Rabbi had spotted the Neturei Karta Rabbi he headed straight for him. It all happened so quickly that the Neturei Karta Rabbi did not realise what was going on. Once within arms length the Lubavitcher Rabbi punched the Neturei Karta Rabbi on the nose, and hard! The Neturei Karta Rabbi’s nose began bleeding profusely, at which point the rest of the Lubavitchers began fighting too. There was a mini battle going on in the middle of 300 Muslims, between 15 or so orthodox Jews.
The police did nothing. They just stood there and watched whilst the Lubavitchers continued an all out attack. In the end the Muslims had to jump in and protect the Neturei Karta from any further violence. There were thousands of police watching, with cameras and sniper scopes, all witnessing this violence, yet they did nothing, made no arrests nor gave any cautions. By comparison the Muslims had been threatened with baton charges if a few boys did not allow themselves to be photographed.
The violence of the Lubavitchers was completely unreported in any english newspaper and the entire counter demo was barely given a line of coverage by the UK press that actually reported about the event.
Sadly for the Neturei Karta it has been like this for a long time.
Because the Lubavitcher cannot discredit the Neturei Karta (or the Satmar) in anyway, they are authorities on the Torah and the Talmud, they have resorted to murdering dozens of Neturei Karta Rabbis over the last 80-90 years. Until recently, the last 5-7 years, hardly anyone came to the rescue of the Neturei Karta after their many cries for help and support. They even had to pay the New York Times to place adverts about their condition and beliefs, because the US newspapers refused to write articles about them or give them coverage.
It is a travesty that mainstream Jews have been duped into following the Lubavitch in their synagogues, in all their manifestations, when the closest in faith (by way of teachings) to the Children of Israel, are the Neturei Karta, the Satmar and the Orthodox.
Very interesting blog post Muhammad. I would like to say thanks for your active participation in the effort to combat Zionism.
The event you describe so clearly is something that should never have been played out on British soil. Quite frankly why these people are not resident in the Police State of Israel is beyond me and holding rallies in a nation so far from their own alleged one is something that needs to be addressed by all concerned. I have lived in Australia for over 15 years and even though my country of origin is the UK I doubt you’d find me at any pro-UK rally being held here, if such a rally were at all possible or necessary.
As you well know though the British establishment is largely a ‘Judeo/Christian’ construct that has been predominately Zionist in political terms for well over a hundred years, at least that we know of. In fact Zionism as a movement was largely the product of the Anglican denomination of the Church of England’s elite aristocracy who truly believed that they were a vehicle in the fulfillment of certain biblical prophecies concerning what they perceived to be Israel.
It wasn’t long after the State of Israel became legitamised as a nation in 1948 that the Anglicans who were present in Palestine and who had helped set up the framework of government etc in the new nation of Israel began becoming targets of Jewish Zionist terrorist attacks which in due course led to most of the Anglican, and British people in general, leaving. This left the State of Israel in the hands of terrorists and criminals and has been such ever since. In the meantime the state is still actively funded by the same British aristocracy and banking families via donations and taxes raised by the millions of workers who are in the employ of many of their owned and run corporations and companies. In recent decades the Israeli lobby has targeted America and have had enormous success in both infiltrating the US government at all levels as well as the ever expanding markets of the companies owned by the Zionist aristocracy.
While all this has been taking place the idea that Israel is our friend both religiously and politically has taken root in the conscience of millions of people in the so-called western nations simply because the real and actual reality of the birth, sustenance and maintenance of the State of Israel has never reached their eyes and ears because the media outlets actively block such information. This leaves only the largely “Christian” perspective of Israel to further perpetuate the deception in the minds of the many. This brings me onto the educational aspect of these matters and, in particular, the Natorei Karta.
Whilst there is no doubt that the Natorei Karta is passionately against the State of Israel and Zionism, at least those members who are genuine as evident by the attack on one of them at the rally you attended indicates, I still struggle with the idea put forth by a spokesman who made this statement after the event which was published by the Jerusalem Post on May 23 2002:
"One of our speakers was attacked by someone who came across from the demonstration and hit him in the face," he said. According to insiders, the attacker was actually from a rival haredi group.
"Our speaker said the physical pain was bad, but not as bad as the pain he felt that a Jewish boy could have been so misguided to think that we are his enemies. We are trying to educate people, not fight with them. Millions of people claim to be Jews, without actually practicing Judaism. How can they say they represent the Jews?"
http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/439
I agree with his sentiment that education is far more constructive than fighting with Zionists but find it difficult to accept that Judaism, which religiously is representative of Jews, is a legitimate religion when you consider that it is essentially centered around the Talmud, a collection of writings that speak vile and blasphemous statements regarding the Prophet Jesus, if one is of the Muslim faith and Jesus Christ the son of God if one is of the Christian or Catholic faith. I personally hold the opinion that the Christian has more in common with the Muslim simply on the grounds that both faiths accept Jesus and his teachings, albeit in a perception that differs somewhat i.e. Prophet and Son of God.
Judaism on the other hand dismisses Jesus altogether and in fact speaks cruel and vile things about his person and that of his mother and I don’t need to be either Muslim or Christian to be repulsed by such sentiment of belief found within the pages of the Talmud and whilst I accept that many Jews may not even be aware of what is contained in the Talmud, I find it difficult to accept that members of the Natorei Karta who profess to actually practice Judaism are ignorant of the content of the book in which plays a significant role in their professed beliefs and lifestyle.
There is a conflict here and its one that surely cannot be overlooked by those claiming to profess either the Muslim or Christian faith and I thought perhaps you would be qualified to answer my concern or clarify and or correct me if I’m not interpreting any of this in a clear fashion.
Respectfully and in peace.
Hi there Michael,
Your historical summary is accurate and your points about rallies in the UK are good.
As for the vexed question of the Neturei Karta and the Satmar et al.
The different groups and sects of Jews vary in practice and belief as a result of the sources that they use as the basis for their respective teachings. The 3 primary sources are the Torah, the Talmud and the Zohar. (the Midrash is only ever used as anecdotal evidence when Rabbis try to deduce rulings).
Put simply; some of the Jews take the Torah as their main source of teachings and use the other collections as exegesis (legal expansion). Others take the Talmud as their main source and maybe use the Torah and Zohar as exegesis. At the other end, the Qabbalistic Jews, we have the Zohar as the main source of legal teachings and the other sources are almost entirely ignored as exegesis.
The Neturei Karta and the Satmar are Torah observant Jews and therefore they accept the commands of Moses, peace be upon him and his family, and the other lawbringers. Therefore, although they still believe in the Jews returning to the land of Palestine under divine government, this can ONLY happen for them AFTER the Messiah has come. They state that under the laws of Moses, peace be upon him and his family, they are forbidden from harming or stealing from other people, whether Jew or Gentile.
The Talmudic Jews accept the same law of none harm or theft from other people, BUT they say that according to Talmudic interpretation "people" only means Jew and not Gentile. To them gentiles are cattle and therefore to harm a Gentile is like harming an ox or a sheep and in some comparisons a snake. (I think they may be right in some cases in respect of this last comparison!)
Therefore, the Neturei Karta's claim about education is correct. They truly believe that their Jewish brothers and sisters have been ensnared by the devil, who has led them into a path of false Judaism, not based upon the revelation of the prophets, peace be upon them. They want their community to study and understand what God (glory be to Him) wants of them and to abandon their ignorant support of zionism, the work of the devil himself.
As for Judaism and Jesus, peace be upon him and his mother, well we Muslims believe that the Jews are one messenger short of being Christians and the Christians are one messenger short of being Muslims.
Disbelief is a strange concept for believers and it comes in many flavours and is expressed in many ways. For those of us who believe in the divine nature of the mission of Jesus, peace be upon him and his mother, it is hard for us to understand how other folk cannot see it.
We know that Jesus, peace be upon him and his mother, had run-ins with the Rabbis of his day, who refused to accept his divine authority. As a believer it is hard to understand. Imagine yourself standing there in the presence of Jesus, having witnessed his miracles with other people who also witnessed the same thing. How would you argue with them? "Look! The guy is walking on water, raising the dead, curing the sick and the infirmed and he says that he only does this through the power of God", you say, and they reply "No, its an illusion, its all done with mirrors, that other guy wasn't really dead they are working together in a scam".
Maybe, the conversations were very similar to that. Some of the Israelites accepted Jesus, peace be upon him and his mother, and some didn't. Those who didn't went on to place their reasons for non-acceptance in the collection of traditions known as the Talmud. They are not flattering traditions. However, how can we expect them to be, they are traditions that are for us, expressions of disbelief.
We can only ask God, glory be to Him, to guide them to something that we belive is better for them.
Respectfully,
Muhammad.
The Talmud is a collection of ancient Babylonian oral traditions, that were in existance during Jesus the Christ' days.
"The Talmud is, then, the written form of that which in the time of Jesus, was called the Traditions of the Elders." — Rabbi Michael L. Rodkinson
"The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees." — Universal Jewish Encyclopedia
Source
Remember why they could not and still can not hear Jesus' words:
Jesus said unto them,...
If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
You have clarified it well regarding the Neturei Karta's stand on matters of interpretation.
I asked for you to answer my query because I have heard many people refer to them as being Talmudic in their views and as such are probably and unfairly being lumped in the same basket as Talmudic Zionist Jews.
I have used the writings and audio interviews of Rabbi Dovid Weiss to educate certain Christians as well as a minister with some success. The minister, although receptive seems to be reluctant to pass this information on to his congregation, at least in public meetings. On the other hand he doesn't even mention the State of Israel either in any context.
I first became aware of Zionism in the UK when I listened to a recording of a man called Joannas Facius. I wish I still had the tape now because in it he speaks of how his family's fortune of some $60,000,000 was confiscated by the Nazi's during WW2 in Sweden (my question as always been 'how did they amass such a fortune at the first place?').
In hindsight I see that it must have been Zionists behind the Nazi regime who would have seized his family's fortune in keeping with Herzl's strategy.
It saddens me that this Facius is either unable to discern the facts regarding his family's wealth or he has been adequately compensated as he still is active as a Christian Zionist and in his own words is "a happy Zionist".
I gave the tape to a pastor for a listen thinking it would be his cup of tea and was quite amazed at the time when he returned the tape and explained a few thing about Zionism and how it is in contrast to true biblical teaching and not being particularly interested in such matters at the time largely forgot about it. 20 years on and I see things far more clearer.
Jim Condit Jr's video "The Final Solution to Adolf Hitler" is a great resource for anyone wishing to unravel the mystery of Nazism and Zionism.
Once again thanks for answering my query and clarifying the situation with regard to the Neturei Karta, God bless them and yourself.
you wouldn't happen to have any pictures or videos of that event, would you???
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"Money" has no value - people do.
Peace be upon you,
Welcome to WUFYS. Good to have you conributing directly to the site. I remember hearing you on TFC, your show introduced me to Sabbatianism (and formed the basis of my research that later became a presentation I gave at uni, well received :) )
Interesting story. Not surprised that it never got airtime. My dad once walked past a NK demonstration in NY. They told him that they hold very regular demos, but you never hear about them on TV.
Good conversation between you and Michael. It's always good to read well researched discussions. Here's my question: Even if the Neturei Karta are mostly Torah-based, would they still refer to the Talmud? How significant/authoritative is the Talmud for them?
From my studies, even NK rely on Talmud for explanations of the Torah. Could you please make this clearer again.
Peace.
The term "Torah" is not being used precisely here. In order to have a clear understanding of the matter it is necessary to understand the definitions of the relevant terms used by the rabbis. "Torah" encompasses the entire canon of rabbinic texts, Mishnah, Talmud, Kabbalah, Shulchan Arukh, Mishneh Torah, etc. etc. The rabbis also lump the Tanakh (the first five books of the Old Testament of the Bible) in with "Torah" although the Tanakh is not their book. Most non-Judaics seem to believe that the term "Torah" as it relates to rabbinic Judaism refers only to Old Testament texts but this is most certainly not the case, and the rabbis do very little to clarify the matter because they thrive where there is confusion. The Neturei Karta are no exception.
Both the Neturei Karta and Chabad Lubavitch are adherents to Orthodox Judaism which holds Talmud and Kabbalah and the racial supremacism and blasphemies contained therein against Christ and Muhammad and the curses against Christians to be be central to their "religion." When the Neturei Karta rabbis say they are "Torah true Jews" they are only saying that they have a better understanding of Talmud and Kabbalah than the other sects.
I personally believe that Neturei Karta are sincerely anti-Zionist in that they believe that the Zionist state will be yet another false messiah disaster for "the Jews" but they are not true allies to Christians or Muslims as long as they uphold the extreme tribalist, racial supremacist teachings of Talmud and Kabbalah.
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
Cool, it seems even high profile people (for me at least) check out WUFYS.
Thanks for your input, Maurice. My understanding of NK and Judaism in general is closer to yours. This is in no way denying NK's struggles and sincerity. But I don't see the evidence that NK are not Judaic in the basic sense like most of religious Jewry nowadays, ie their religion is based on the teachings of the Rabbis as an authority over interpreting the Tanakh and other books (therefore, Talmud and Zohar's uses).
Btw, I was introduced to your blog via Michael Hoffman's, if I remember correctly. Haven't checked in a while, must do that again.
Cheers for the input.
ps To Muslims, 'Torah' only refers to what Moses brought, which is specifically (and popularly considered) to be the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old Testament, which Jews call the Tanakh. I didn't know that Jews use the word 'Torah' to refer to ALL their books. If that is the case, then a lot of Muslims might be getting confused from that sense.
Summary: Muslim Torah = Christian Pentateuch = Jewish Tanakh.
(all mistakes are mine, if someone catches a mistake, please correct me)
Does it matter whether the Neuteri Karta jews follow the Talmud? If they want to participate in the fight against Zionism, why not? What better way to fight the Jews than with Jews. Doesn’t Zionism want to get rid of all religions and institute the One World Religion. And what will that be?
So all religions would be natural allies in this fight, regardless of true beliefs. Quite frankly, if the Christians wanted to be dogmatic, they would not participate with Muslims, because they blaspheme Jesus name as well by claiming that he was just a prophet. So you can see how ridiculous this all becomes when we choose to focus on our differences, rather than our common enemy.
minor differences must be ignored.
however, there are limits to the kind of differences you can ignore.
Ignoring a difference in a belief that affects no one other than the person believing it is one thing, and ignoring a difference in a political ideology that requires the annihilation of an entire population to fulfill its goals is an entirely different story.
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"Money" has no value - people do.
I'm quite aware of the doctrinal differences between Christianity and Islam. Despite the differences, I believe that Christians and Muslims have a great deal more in common with each other, particularly in areas of morality and ethics, than either have with Judaism.
Christianity and Islam both emphasize the soul and the eternal while Judaism exalts the body and the temporal. Both Christianity and Islam apply one set of standards for all while Judaism is a system of double standards--one preferable standard for "Jews" and oppressive standards for everyone else. Christianity and Islam both seek converts because each hold every person to be a creature of God with an eternal soul equal in the eyes of God. Judaism teaches that the "Jew" has an extra soul which is materially a part of God which non-Jews do not have making them of a higher order of being than the non-"Jew." Christianity and Islam are both fundamentally opposed to usury. Judaism provides religious rationalizations for usury. Christianity and Islam both hold chastity to be a high virtue. Judaism discourages chastity. I could go on.
Judaism maintains that "the Jews" have a divine mandate to rule the world from Jerusalem and be served by all other nations. This is fundamental Talmudic and Kabbalistic belief held by both Neturei Karta and Chabad. There is no disagreement between them on this point.
All of the sects of Judaism end their Passover Seders each year with the phrase, "next year in Jerusalem." Judaism is Zionist to the core. There is only differences in opinion as to how rule from Jerusalem should come to be. Neturei Karta believe that mad dog Zionism ala Sharon, Netanyahu, Ledeen, et al, is bad policy. Many people can recognize this to be true. That doesn't necessarily make them allies, particularly if they believe they are of a higher species than you and have a divine mandate to rule over you.
Zionism is an enemy to all outsiders but Zionism is only a modern manifestation of the ancient ideology which informs it: Pharisaic Rabbinic Judaism. The racial supremacist ideology of double standards disguised as a religion--rabbinic Judaism--is the enemy.
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
It was my understanding that the Torah was the first five books of the Bible, the Tanakh was most of the Old Testament and then there was the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylon Talmud.
If I am not mistaken the word and concept of 'soul' was introduced to Judaism by Judaic diaspora during 8th and 5th c. bc, after Assyrian destruction of the first temple and their exile. This is also the case for the idea of 'universal god', they believed in god, but their god not the god of all humans. Especially if the latter is true, considering Judaism as the first monotheistic religion becomes seriously questionable.
Another controversial issue is that many years ago I read the news of the excavation of a clay plaque found in Iraq that had the verbatim ten commandments inscribed on it. The plaque and all the news links and articles seem to have disappeared when the radiological dating analyses determined the plaque belonged to 500 years before Moses time and most likely belonged to Akkadian civilization. Another supporting factor is the Persian word 'Dastour' which means decree, agenda, grammar. The precursor word of Dastour was Dasatyr = dasa (deci, ten) + tyr (a preancient god) = Ten Commandments. The oldest description of the word goes 200 years before Moses time.
If all these mean what they mean, it begs the question how the spirit expressed in the ten commandments has been reflected in other Judaic scriptures. Was ten commandments also added to Judaism at one point or its spirit is organically traceable in every corner and been part of Judaism from the beginning.
btw; NK believes in Holocaust, but asserts it should not be abused for countercrimes.
I don’t think that it’s fair to paint Judaism with a broad brush, although I’m sure the Zionists wouldn’t mind. Many Jewish sects have tried to integrate themselves into the modern world without the extreme ideology. The Controversy of Zion by Douglas Reed documents some of this. But the Zionist Jews have fought them at every turn. Therefore, we do have a common enemy, as in your enemy’s enemy is your friend.
“Judaism maintains that "the Jews" have a divine mandate to rule the world from Jerusalem and be served by all other nations.”
NK’s website states:
Jewry always viewed their exile as a Divine punishment for sins. Thus, exile is the result of metaphysical forces. It cannot be rectified by force, political efforts or any other this worldly means. Jews yearn for the Biblically promised redemption of the entire world to be ushered in by the Heavenly appointed Messiah. This yearning manifested itself over the centuries only in prayer, good deeds and a spirit of penitence. This is the only Divinely sanctioned methodology to end the punishment of exile.
Also it states:
"Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean another people and are not allowed to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise, their political meddling and their wars."
“G-D in His teachings forbids abortions. It is considered the murder of a human life”.
"It is one of the basic tenets of our faith that the Jewish people must be just and ethical in their dealings with all mankind. The Torah (Jewish teachings) calls upon us to maintain gratitude and loyalty to the nation in which we reside."
Philosophically, this is no different than Christianity or the Muslim religion. These Jews seem to be miles away from the radical Zionist Judaism that you are talking about at least in behavior and goals.
Here's something else that you may find interesting from the website:
"On the evening of Monday April 2nd the Beis Yehudi synagogue, which serves as the informal headquarters for Neturei Karta in America, was completely destroyed by fire. The premises also served as the home of Rabbi Moshe Dov Beck and his family. Fortunately they were away at the time, but all their belongings were also lost in the blaze.The flames destroyed thousands of religious books, archives and many of Rabbi Beck's as yet unpublished writings, ranging from Talmudic insights to theological treatises."
"The police and fire departments originally suspected arson given the many threats which Neturei Karta and many of its leaders and members are subjected. Eventually they concluded, as reported in the media, that the fire was accidental."
"Unfortunately, there is no doubt that Neturei Karta's vigorous rejection of Zionism has earned them the blind hate of some misguided Jews. During and after the blaze there were those who drove by the synagogue hurling insults and shouting joyfully. Their hate seemed almost homicidal. It had no bounds."
The one thing I will ad is that I saw Rabbi David Weiss being interviewed on Fox News not too long ago, so that certainly makes you wonder.
I was not referring to NK when I wrote my last comment - they are definitely allies.
Someone like Birdman is not - anymore.
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"Money" has no value - people do.
"TORAH ... the word is used for the whole corpus of Jewish traditional law from the Bible to the latest development of the halakhah. In modern Hebrew the word is used to designate the system of a thinker or scholar, e.g., 'the torah of Spinoza.'" (Encyclopaedia Judaica, "Torah")
"TANAKH, the usual Hebrew collective term for the Old Testament. The term is composed of the initial letters of the words Torah ('Pentateuch'), Nevi'im ('Prophets'), and Ketuvim ('Hagiographa')." (Encyclopaedia Judaica, "Tanakh")
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
These Jews seem to be miles away from the radical Zionist Judaism that you are talking about at least in behavior and goals.
The Talmud and Zohar teach hate, revenge, racial supremacism, and how to go about it, among other things. The Naturei Karta, Satmar and others don't seem to espouse or practice this hatred and bigotry, regardless of what they must know is written in their books, that and their staunch anti-zionism is enough for me to see them as on our side.
If they do have hateful racial supremacist views, that's their problem, just as long as they don't make it anyone else's.
I am pleased to see you check in and partake of our humble site, my friend. Peace to you and your loved ones. To Jesus through Mary. DB
"It is one of the basic tenets of our faith that the Jewish people must be just and ethical in their dealings with all mankind. The Torah (Jewish teachings) calls upon us to maintain gratitude and loyalty to the nation in which we reside."
This is a half truth from rabbis whose "Torah" tradition permits deceit. The rabbis allude to the Mishneh Torah of Maimonides here. They are merely restating Maimonides' prescription for how "Jews" should behave in a society dominated by non-"Jews." Maimonides states that if halacha was practiced as it ideally should be in a society where Judaics don't hold power that it would bring disrepute and possible harm to them so they should make concessions in that case.
What the rabbis have left out is that in the ideal Judaic dominated society the double standards of Noahide law would be imposed and non-Jews could be executed by a single "Jewish" judge on the testimony of a single witness with no jury for petty theft or "idolatry" (i.e. worship of the Triune God of Christianity). On the other hand, there would be enough legal favoritism for "Jews" that it would be virtually impossible for them to be convicted of a crime against a non-"Jew."
This is the "Torah" that Neturei Karta are true to. It has nothing in common with Christianity whatsoever. It's a racket of double standards.
I'm not interested in Neturei Karta rhetoric. I'm interested in what the "Torah" which they themselves claim they are true to actually states, and it states a great many hostile things about non-"Jews." No one who subscribes to such ideology could be considered an ally by any person with their natural instinct for self preservation intact.
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
..yah, but i'm not going to stop them from protesting against the legitimacy of the israeli state on occupied Palestine..
'This is a half truth from rabbis whose "Torah" tradition permits deceit. The rabbis allude to the Mishneh Torah of Maimonides here. They are merely restating Maimonides' prescription for how "Jews" should behave in a society dominated by non-"Jews."'
I'm confused. So the NK Jews show up at rallies against Zionsim as a Trojan Horse? They showed up at the Holocaust Conference in Tehran for sinister motives?
If they're not for real, then why are they being viciously attacked by Zionist Jews? Just over their stand on Israel and Zionism? It would be wise to let moderate jews express themselves and gain a foothold as a counterbalance to radical judaism. You seem to be saying they are one in the same. But their actions speak for themselves. Regardless of which documents they follow.
Seems like they are a better alternative than Zionist Judaism and can be used to show three faith unity, at least in the short run. These NK Jews wouldn't have to play nice as a survival tactic, since the Zionists have already taken over the Western system. So why are they causing problems for Zionists?
MauricePinay's contribution is much appreciated in this topic and has brought yet another perspective in the overall clarification on this matter.
I often considered the possibility that the NK were being somehow used as controlled opposition and I have to say I haven't entirely dismissed this theory, however I cannot dispute their opposition toward Israel as a State and Zionism.
I also find it difficult to accept that they would somehow benefit in the overall vision of a Zionist New World Order with the seat of government based in Jerusalem considering that their numbers are relatively tiny and the fact that even in Israel they are marginalised to such extent as to be nearly non-existent in the minds of most Israelis.
If they do share the same essential ideology as those Jews who centre their belief structure around the Talmud and hope to share in the perceived glory of their messiah in the end then surely by their actions they are in conflict with him, or do they suppose that they will be the only ones allowed, or permitted, to enjoy and be around at his arrival?
I'm rather more inclined to agree with duped here and say that their action speak louder than the Talmud and will continue to reference them in educating others of a religious persuasion as to the true nature of Zionism and the threat it's always been to basic humanity.
On another note MonkeyZerg, could you please clarify your father's experience in NY when he passed by a NK rally? First hand testimony is always the way to go which is why Muhammad's description of the pro-Israel rally in London has invited some great input here.
Hi there Qrswave,
Sadly I do not have personal pics of the event, but the newspapers in the UK did record the zionist side and the articles may well have contained pictures.
The police (probably Special Branch) have loads of pics of the event, but they are an ungenerous lot and requests for them to share with us will probably go ignored!
Respectfully,
Muhammad
"A non-Jew is put to death on the basis of a decision given by one judge [no jury], and on the basis of testimony given by a single witness, and even if he was not given a proper warning prior to the commission of his offense. He is put to death on the basis of testimony and a decision given by a man but not on the basis of testimony and a decision given by a woman, and the man who testified or decided against him can even be a relative.
"A Jew can only be put to death by a court of twenty-three judges, and on the basis of the testimony of two male witnesses who are not disqualified from testifying on account of kinship, and after being properly warned against committing the transgression. But none of these rules apply in the case of a non-Jew." (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 57b, Steinsaltz edition, vol.18, page 110)
"... violation of any one of the seven laws subjects the Noachide to capital punishment by decapitation (Sanh. 57a)."(Encyclopaedia Judaica, "Noahide Laws")
Only an extremely suicidal non-"Jew" would ally themselves with people who pray for the day when the above will become the law of the land.
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
There are man's laws and there are God's laws, and Lubavitch will fall hard under the judgement of God's law. They should Repent and do Penance.
Hi there MonkeyZerg,
And may peace be upon you and the mercy of Allaah
The relationship between Torah and Talmud is a complex subject, there is no single "it's exactly like this", because the different Judaic sects all use the materials slightly differently. However there are some principles than can be applied and we can examine single specific usages, like the Neturei Karta.
Example:
When we look at the commandment, as Christians who do not refer to the Talmud, "Thou shalt not slay a life", we would take the commandment "as is". This is what it says, this is what it means.
The Neturei Karta would go to their Palestinian Talmud (there are 2 you see, the Palestinian and the Babylonian but please don't ask me any more about this matter because the explanation is a massive dance up and down history!). The Talmud would offer them the commentary, which for this commandment reads something similar to, "This command is only in relation to human beings and not animals. The command is only applicable outside the context of a juridical finding of guilt where the punishment under the law is death, whereby the command is not applicable". So as you can see the Talmud here takes the role of exegesis or "legal expansion". It clarifies the extent and applicability of the law and originally this advice would have come from Moses, peace be upon him, or maybe another Israelite prophet.
The Orthodox, who are more Talmud oriented than the Neturei Karta, would also take into consideration other Talmudic rulings on definitions of other terms either stated or implicit in the commandment. These Orthodox would have the same view as the Neturei karta above, but then continue from Talmud. "The Talmud says that only Jews are full human beings and that the Gentiles are only half human, having part animal souls. Therefore the commandment is expanded as only to humans, but only Jews are humans, therefore we are only prohibited from killing Jews"
Respectfully,
Muhammad.
Hi there Maurice,
Contrary to your understanding, the Lubavitcher are Hasidim and NOT Orthodox. The Orthodox have rejected the Lubavitch movement for nearly two centuries and they will not move from that position.
It is a mischief of the Lubavitch Hasidim that they attempt to pass themselves off as Orthodox, especially to rank and file Jewry and most Jews are ignorant of this important distinction. It is vital for the Lubavitch to maintain the mantle of respectability in the Jewish community by appearing like Orthodox, but in reality they have teachings and practices which the true Orthodox abhor. This way they can continue to take donations and handouts in the name of Orthodoxy but use the monies to further their own Sabatean Qabbalistic ends.
Why do you think the Neturei Karta keep trying to warn the Jewish community about this group? Why do you think the response of this group has been murder of the Neturei Karta's Chief Rabbis?
In the phraseology of this site, Wake Up From Your Slumber. Think about it logically Maurice, if the Lubavitch really feared Almighty God would they murder neturei Karta Rabbis?
Respectfully,
Muhammad.
MauricePinay says: "Only an extremely suicidal non-"Jew" would ally themselves with people who pray for the day when the above will become the law of the land."
Who suggested being allied with them? As I say the NK is tiny in relation to the overall number of Jews, or people who consider themselves Jewish. Surely if we are wise as serpents we ought to at least use their efforts to highlight the evils of Zionism with the added bonus of not having the accusation of being 'anti-Semitic' thrown our way. In other words, why muzzle the ox when it is treading out the grain?
They can pray all they like for the day that they believe the "Noahide Laws" "will become the law of the land", it doesn't mean to say it's going to happen or do you have more faith in their prayers than your own?
I don't necessarily dispute what you say above, I just respectfully question your logic.
Hi there All,
There appears to be a lot of confusion about the position of the Neturei Karta and the imposition of Judaic law upon the whole world.
Of course they believe in this. And the Christians believe something similar. And so do the Muslims. We all believe that the law of God, glory be to Him, is going to be imposed on the whole world.
What is crucial here is that the Neturei Karta, the patient Christians and the informed Muslims ALL believe that this will occur AFTER the appearance of the Messiah and that they are NOT allowed to impose it upon mankind themselves. ONLY the Messiah will be given divine sanction to enforce God's law.
The problem that we have today is that zionists, both Jews and Christians, believe that they have been given divine sanction (anyone seen the Ark of the Covenant lately or the Rod of Moses etc etc) and having 'received' that sanction are trying to impose their own will on the world.
This is the cause of our current problems. If everyone justs carries on with life as normal, until such time as the Messiah does come into the world, then nobody is going to attempt to enforce their own personal INTERPRETATION of prophecy, from whatever source, upon anyone.
Respectfully,
Muhammad.
Why ENFORCE? Why all this talk of things like this. God's law is there for Any and all to CHOOSE to follow. This Enforced or imposed talk is not the right descriptive. What good is an imposed will?
Your CHOICE is to do good or bad. The lord built this place to test you. Tests are not much good if everything is thought out for you first then imposed upon upon your life by a power greater than you. You choose your path. Your path is not chosen for you.
You choose your Deeds. And your rewards are a result of a truth learned or deed done good.
First you take D.C. Then you take New York.
"There appears to be a lot of confusion about the position of the Neturei Karta and the imposition of Judaic law upon the whole world.
"Of course they believe in this. And the Christians believe something similar. And so do the Muslims. We all believe that the law of God, glory be to Him, is going to be imposed on the whole world."
Yes, but the what exactly do these different belief systems maintain the "law of God" to be? There is no comparison between Christian and Judaic belief in this regard. Christianity holds the law of God to be just and universal. Judaism maintains that the "law of God" is a system of double standards preferential to "Jews" and tyrannical for everyone else. There is no disagreement between Chabad and Neturei Karta on this matter. Both sects view the Mishneh Torah of Maimonides and Babylonian Talmud, where this system of double standards is clearly laid out, to be inspired, authoritative "Torah."
Neturei Karta believe the racial supremacist, Maimonides who codified this system of double standards in Mishneh Torah to be "the greatest rabbi." They cite the Babylonian Talmud in their arguments.
----------------------
"Contrary to your understanding, the Lubavitcher are Hasidim and NOT Orthodox. The Orthodox have rejected the Lubavitch movement for nearly two centuries and they will not move from that position."
I realize that Chabad is classified as Hasidim, but what of it? They're informed by the same Talmudic and Kabbalistic texts as Neturei Karta and the "Orthodox." I'm concerned with Judaic beliefs, particulalry their beliefs regarding how they should relate with outsiders. Chabad, Neturei Karta, and all other "Orthodox" sects hold the Talmudic and Kabbalistic corpus to be inspired, authoritative "Torah." The passage which I have cited from the Babylonian Talmud describing the ideal Judaic legal system of double standards is authoritative to all of these sects.
----------------------
"It is a mischief of the Lubavitch Hasidim that they attempt to pass themselves off as Orthodox ..."
From the Christian and Muslim perspective, none of the sects of Judaism could be truly said to be orthodox in Biblical terms except perhaps the Karaites who reject the Talmudic and Kabbalistic texts. Talmud and Kabbalah turn the Bible upside down. They're the codified Pharisaic tradition which Jesus stated "makes void the Word of God."
----------------------
"Why do you think the Neturei Karta keep trying to warn the Jewish community about this group?"
Because they disagree with their methods which they believe will end in catastrophe for "the Jews," as I've stated earlier.
---------------------
"Why do you think the response of this group has been murder of the Neturei Karta's Chief Rabbis?"
I recognize the disagreements and conflicts that exist and I believe I have explained how I account for them.
---------------------
"Think about it logically Maurice, if the Lubavitch really feared Almighty God would they murder neturei Karta Rabbis?"
They believe that THEY are God. But this belief is common to all Talmudic and Kabbalistic sects and that includes Neturei Karta and all of the "Orthodox." There is only differences in how aggressively the belief is put into practice.
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
"Who suggested being allied with them?"
I've witnessed Neturei Karta banners at a great many anti-Zionist websites. This sends a message by implication that they are allies. I believe that most people do this "for fear of the Jews." They believe that the Neturei Karta furnishes them cover. The thinking is, "it can't be anti-semitic to be anti-Zionist because these 'Jews' also oppose Zionism."
But people of good will don't need a Judaic sponsor to recognize and speak against evil. Zionism is deplorable no matter whether some "Jews" say it is or not. It is perfectly reasonable for any person, "Jew" or non-"Jew" to say so.
--------------
"Surely if we are wise as serpents we ought to at least use their efforts to highlight the evils of Zionism with the added bonus of not having the accusation of being 'anti-Semitic' thrown our way."
The Church Fathers interpret "the wisdom of the serpent" to mean that it sacrifices it's tail to save it's head. Our "head" is our faith. I don't believe Christ recommended deviousness and end-justifies-the-means alliances with the lesser of evils in that allegory, for what fellowship hath light with darkness?
-----------
"In other words, why muzzle the ox when it is treading out the grain?"
I don't recommend muzzling Neturei Karta in their anti-Zionism. I do recommend that people of all backgrounds hold the rabbis in suspicion due to their tradition of racial supremacism and deceit.
----------
"They can pray all they like for the day that they believe the 'Noahide Laws' 'will become the law of the land,' it doesn't mean to say it's going to happen or do you have more faith in their prayers than your own?"
I don't take this "wait and pray" rhetoric or anything else that any rabbi of Talmud states at face value. Talmud grants them permission to lie to us.
-----------
"I don't necessarily dispute what you say above, I just respectfully question your logic."
If you understand that I see rabbinic Judaism as a greater threat than Zionism because it informs Zionism, then the logic should be clear. Neturei Karta are gaining prestige in the anti-Zionist camp. I view this as Talmud and Kabbalah getting in through the back door. It is evident when people parrot Neturei Karta slogans about "Torah true 'Jews'." Do they know that what this really means is that Neturei Karta are Talmud and Kabbalah true "Jews." Is this something that Christians and Muslims should view as virtuous? I certainly don't. Is the answer to all the world's problems that the "Jews" should interpret Talmudic and Kabbalistic teachings on racial supremacism, hostility, usury and deception more truly? I don't think so.
As I've said, the rabbis thrive where there is confusion of this sort. They won't clarify the meaning of "Torah" as long as they benefit from the confusion. That's why I'm clarifying it.
Most importantly, If one understands rabbinic dialectics, or the Hegelian dialectic they might see Chabad as the pillar of severity, and Neturei Karta as the pillar of mercy, or thesis and antithesis respectively, and damage control for Talmud and Kabbalah as the synthesis.
I personally have had enough dialectics and I believe non-"Jews" would do well to step outside the dialectic and stop bouncing back and forth between the Kabbalistic pillars.
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
Hi there Maurice,
Indeed Maurice, there is sound observation in what you say in respect of the different expectations of the implementation of the law of God, glory be to Him, in the age of the Messiah, peace be upon him. In fact that was my underlying point. There is no value whatsoever in us trying to unify on what the implementation of the law will be like under the Messiah. All the different Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity and Islaam) have different source books to start with, so they are never going to come to a common understanding on this matter.
Then when we look inside those 3 faiths, we see a myriad of interpretations of their own source books for each sect. For example, do the Seventh Day Adventists believe the same as the Baptists, or the Anglicans, or the Methodists, or the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Catholics? No, of course not. So the simple answer for everyone is to wait and see what the Messiah, peace be upon him, actually does once he's here.
As for those people trying to 'bring about' the Kingdom of Heaven before the Messiah himself is here. They have really elevated their own self-importance and are crusading under the cloak of self-righteousness.
And this brings us nicely to the many different groups and sects within the Judaic community. They do NOT all believe in the same sources and therefore it is not possible to generalise and make claims like "They all believe in the Talmud" or "They all believe in the commentary of Maimonides". It is simply not true.
Some Judaic groups entirely reject the Talmud and the Torah. A large group of the Hasidim were originally known as the Zoharites, after the book which is central to their beliefs. They still exist today and they trade under different names; to confuse not only Gentiles but other groups of Jews too. Only very well studied Jews such as the scholars in their community understand these differences and their importance.
It is important to grasp that the Hasidim (or Chasidim or Khasidim) are an entirely separate class of Jew in terms of faith and practice. And among the Hasidim there are differents sects too. The Lubavitcher are Zoharites. Not only do they not except the Torah but also they also do not except the Talmud either. Their faith is based only on the teachings of the Zohar and it is these Hasidim who believe that they are the manifestation of God in the world. No other group of Jews has this belief, ONLY the "Zohar only" observant Jews.
As evidence, please find the citations below:
From "History of the Jews" (Rev H.C. Adams, London, 1887)
"Though some of the Chasidim professed a reverence for the Talmud, their system of theology is in reality antagonistic to it. The basis of their confession of faith is, not the Talmud, but the Book of Zohar. This, together with the Yetzira, contains the fullest exposition of their views" (p.395)
"The Talmud is said to have been publicly burnt in Podolia, A.D. 1755, by some Sabbathain Cabbalists. On the other side, the Rabbinical Talmudists repeatedly condemned the Cabbalism of the Chasidim." (footnote 2, p.395)
"The Sepher-Zohar, Book of Light... is accounted the code and text-book of the theological system, as adopted by the Chasidim. It takes the form of a commentary on the Mosaic Books, and is extremely mystical and full of allegory" (p.396)
"Hence, in the confession of faith adopted by the Zoharites, as the followers of Jacob Frank and others were called, the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity... was distinctly professed" (p.397)
Respecfully,
Muhammad.
It is important to grasp that the Hasidim (or Chasidim or Khasidim) are an entirely separate class of Jew in terms of faith and practice.
I am aware of the distinctions between sects, but they're more subtle than you imply.
-----------------
And among the Hasidim there are differents sects too. The Lubavitcher are Zoharites. Not only do they not except the Torah but also they also do not except the Talmud either. Their faith is based only on the teachings of the Zohar ...
This is absoluetly false. One can visit the official Chabad website and see that they certainly do not reject Talmud.
http://www.chabad.org
Chabad does emphasize Kabbalah, with special emphasis on the incredibly racist Tanya, but they most absolutely do not reject Talmud, nor do they base their teachings only on the Zohar.
For God's sake, Adin Steinsaltz is a Chabad Lubavitcher and he produced one of the most authoritative Babylonian Talmud editions. He's one of the most respected living Talmud scholars.
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... and it is these Hasidim who believe that they are the manifestation of God in the world.
The Hasidim do believe this, but it is not at all limited to them.
No other group of Jews has this belief, ONLY the "Zohar only" observant Jews.
Good heavens. You've claimed that it's impossible to make generalized statements about Judaism, but this certainly sounds like a generalized statement to me.
No other group of "Jews" maintains this belief? Have you queried them all? The Chabad are not "Zohar-only" as you claim yet they do subscribe to the "Jew as divine manifestation" belief, so that alone renders your general statement untrue.
And the Zohar, the source of the divine manifestation belief, is accepted by "Orthodox Jews":
"... the Zohar is still held in great reverence by many Orthodox Jews ..." (Jewish Encyclopedia, "Zohar")
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
It is important to grasp that the Hasidim (or Chasidim or Khasidim) are an entirely separate class of Jew in terms of faith and practice.
I am aware of the distinctions between sects, but they're more subtle than you imply.
-----------------
And among the Hasidim there are differents sects too. The Lubavitcher are Zoharites. Not only do they not except the Torah but also they also do not except the Talmud either. Their faith is based only on the teachings of the Zohar ...
This is absoluetly false. One can easily search the official Chabad website and see that they certainly do not reject Talmud.
http://www.chabad.org
Chabad does emphasize Kabbalah, with special emphasis on the incredibly racist Tanya, but they most absolutely do not reject Talmud, nor do they base their teachings only on the Zohar.
For God's sake, Adin Steinsaltz is a Chabad Lubavitcher and he produced one of the most authoritative Babylonian Talmud editions. He's one of the most respected living Talmud scholars.
-------------
... and it is these Hasidim who believe that they are the manifestation of God in the world.
The Hasidim do believe this, but it is not at all limited to them.
No other group of Jews has this belief, ONLY the "Zohar only" observant Jews.
Good heavens. You've claimed that it's impossible to make generalized statements about Judaism, but this certainly sounds like a generalized statement to me.
No other group of "Jews" maintains this belief? Have you queried them all? The Chabad are not "Zohar-only" as you claim yet they do subscribe to the "Jew as divine manifestation" belief, so that alone renders your general statement untrue.
And the Zohar, the source of the divine manifestation belief, is accepted by "Orthodox Jews":
"... the Zohar is still held in great reverence by many Orthodox Jews ..." (Jewish Encyclopedia, "Zohar")
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
Hi Maurice,
Please carefully read the quotation from "The History of the Jews".
It states that the Zoharites make a point of pretending to be Talmudists, while secretly reviling it. The expression of open support for the Talmud by the Zoharites is so that they can deceive the majority of Jewry into thinking they are of similar beliefs.
I am getting concerned that you do not seem to be grasping this point. We expect them to OPENLY praise the Talmud (and maybe even the Torah) but SECRETLY they do not accept or use these books.
This has been known by the true Orthodox for over 200 years, but only scholars and the learned understand this. The Neturei Karta's Rabbis attempts to enlighten the wider Jewish community to this fact has lead to their being murdered.
I hope that this point is finally clear to you and thank you for helping me re-iterate this point to the wider world.
Respectfully,
Muhammad.
"The expression of open support for the Talmud by the Zoharites is so that they can deceive the majority of Jewry into thinking they are of similar beliefs."
This is the strangest theory I've ever heard.
Dear Muhammad, you seem to recognize the Zohar and it's adherents as being somehow disreputable. But at the same time you seem to see something virtuous in Neturei Karta's claim to be true upholders of the Talmud?
If there's a distinction to be made between the murderous racial supremacism of the Zohar and the murderous racial supremacism of the Talmud, it's far too subtle for me to grasp.
But that's besides the point that neither Satmar or Neturei Karta are opposed to the Zohar and it's racial supremacism, divinization of the "Jews," or it's profanation of Jesus and Muhammed your prophet whom it terms "dead dogs."
Satmar, and in turn, Neturei Karta are from the same Kabbalistic (see:Zohar), Chasidic lineage as Chabad.
What are you trying to prove?
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
..this is very interesting, i hope we may come to understand why they hate so much..
..is the zohar not the last revision of the satanic talmud?
..is the zohar not the last revision of the satanic talmud?
The Zohar the central text of Kabbalah. But it's no less Satanic. Arguably more so.
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
How do I email some good information
to Mohammad Rafiq?
What is your primary or secondary email
address?
Kind Regards,
BirdBrain ( not birdman )
off to work now.
Hi there Grim Reaper,
Where Talmudists use the Zohar as an expansion of the Talmud, the Zohar is limited and constrained in its meaning, by the Talmudic framework.
Where Zoharites use the Zohar as their sole source of faith and action, there are no constraints applicable to the interpretation of the Zohar symbolic meaning. This is how the concept of "Left Hand of God" and therefore ALL evil as a righteous act came into existance. The Torah and Talmud would not tolerate such an extreme concept. This concept of righteousness flies in the face of the concept of righteousness, not only for the Torah but even the more unpleasant aspects of the Talmud.
If you were looking for which of the two systems "is the greater evil of the two" then this would be Zohar interpretation without constraint. The adherents to this belief are of the view that they can do anything, at anytime to anyone, just so long as they make the "Left Hand of God" intention.
The Zohar as an expansion of the Talmud is limited and does not really add to the powers, rights and status given to Jews over Gentiles, as set out in the Talmud.
Respectfully,
Muhammad.
The ... Talmud would not tolerate such an extreme concept. This concept of righteousness flies in the face of the concept of righteousness, not only for the Torah but even the more unpleasant aspects of the Talmud.
Muhammad, I've reserved judgment for too long. I see none of the honor of Saladin or the mental clarity and honesty of Averroes in you. I see a shameless apologist for Talmud and Kabbalah in the guise of an "anti-Zionist." Your role seems to be to rehabilitate the hateful, racist Judaic "religious" traditions which inform Zionism within the anti-Zionist camp.
I would direct those who see through your transparent pose to the book Jewish History, Jewish Religion, by Professor Israel Shahak an anti-Zionist who traced the insane, hateful behavior and double standards of Zionists back to their source in the "religious" traditions and texts of Judaism.
It's available to read online for free:
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/jewish_history.html
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/
..how is pointing out the suttle or not so suttle (NK vs. Lubavitch fistfights) differences between Judaic sects "being a shameless apologist for Talmud and Kabbalah in the guise of an anti-Zionist"??
..i'm sure you know much on the subject, Maurice, but instead of pointing the finger as many do, try talking it out in order to get to the bottom of things..
..the talmud, and the zohar to an even greater degree, are terrible and evil, but before we decide just how righteous we all are, remember that we are not perfect. The bible calls for people to be killed in many verses, for things we might consider trivial, and in contradiction with a certain COMMANDMENT..
..i don't know how many times the Quran or additional Muslim works call for death, but something tells me that's it's there as well..
..just remember, YeHoshua ha-Notzri was the antithesis of the corrupted pharisees, and did not write the bible, or participate in any of the crusades or inquisitions..
I find Jon and Maurice very appropriate individuals for my question, just because of frequent use of the term "racist" and of course the depth of their scholarship. If I am not mistaken, the concept of race and racism (biology-based tribalism) is man-made, modern, and maybe less than 300 years old; and of course scientifically baseless. An ostensibly relevant but distinctively unrelated historical "fact" is slavery, that has thousands of years of history.
Now how could we use this modern concept of racism to characterize what has been written in Talmud some 1500 years ago when of course the concept did not exist. Isn't it more appropriate to find a timely description (religious tribalism, tribal supremacism, etc.) to more accurately portray it? Or are you using it consciously because you are sure that is what modern day Judaics understand from it?
At this point it's quite obvious that the sophist Muhammad-Rafeeq is taking advantage of the fact that our debate is spread out over 3 threads. I post the links to all of them and allow the reader to decide who is presenting their argument honestly and who is not.
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/2625
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/2571
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/2604
http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/