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<DATE>2014-04-28</DATE>
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<NAME>Alexis Jakobson</NAME>
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</RESPSTMT>
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<TEXT LANG="eng">
<FRONT>
<DIV1 TYPE="title page">
<PB REF="1" MS="y">
<PB REF="1">
<P>SOPHRONISTES.</P>
<P>A Dialogue, per&s;wa|ding the people to <HI>re|uerence and attend the or|dinance of God, in the</HI> Mini&s;terie of their owne pa&s;tors.</P>
<P>Imprinted at London by <HI>Thomas Orwin,</HI> for <HI>Thomas Man.</HI></P>
<P>1589.</P>
</DIV1>
</FRONT>
<BODY>
<DIV1 TYPE="dialogue">
<PB REF="2">
<PB REF="2">
<HEAD>The pa&s;tor and the flocke, and hovv &s;traight and fa&s;t coniunction <HI>is betweene them.</HI></HEAD>
<STAGE>Sophronius. <HI>Arizelus.</HI></STAGE>
<P>_YOnder commeth my good friend and neighbour <HI>Arizelus</HI> with his wife and familie: they haue bin at &s;ome &s;ermon this morning, for being the &s;abaoth of the Lord, hee would not for his pietie and zeale be otherwi&s;e occupied. Though it be the manner of o|uer manie that know not the things that belong to their peace: rather to &s;pend the Sabaoth in vaine, vnprofita|bly and &s;ome al&s;o; lewde and &s;infull practizes: than to frequent the places where God is wor&s;hipped: and the~|&s;elues might be edified vnto &s;aluation. But becau&s;e hee ab&s;enteth him&s;elfe from his owne Pa&s;tor, and followeth a &s;trange mini&s;trie, I will a&s;&s;ay, if I may reforme him in this point: wherein in mine opinion, verie manie, partlie of ignorance, &amp; partlie of an exce&s;&s;e of zeale, doo greatlie and gr&eacute;euou&s;lie offend. I will therefore expect his approching, that I may &s;alute him, and enter &s;ome conference with him: for hee is not of that &s;ort that will harken to no per&s;wa&s;ion, but wilfullie follow their own fanta&s;ies. God giue you good morrow neighbour <HI>Ari|zelus.</HI></P>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Arize.</SPEAKER>
<P>And you al&s;o good Ma&s;ter <HI>Sophronius.</HI></P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>As I &s;aw you comming towardes me, I meruailed &s;omewhat at your ha&s;t: and haue &s;taied for you, to knowe the cau&s;e thereof: as al&s;o of that cheare|fulne&s;&s;e which is in you, more than ordinarie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB REF="3">
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I haue been at the Sermon of Ma&s;ter <HI>Eulalus,</HI> who of late began to preach beyond the Riuer, a god|lie, learned, and zelous man as I haue knowen.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>I know him wel, and I am glad that that place which was wont to be de&s;titute of all teaching, is nowe &s;o well and fruitefullie furni&s;hed.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>He had occa&s;ion this morning to be &s;omwhat lon|ger than ordinarily hee v&s;eth to be: and this is the cau&s;e of my ha&s;t, that when we haue dined, wee may returne in good time to the afternoone exerci&s;e: for my chere|fulne&s;&s;e, which you &s;ay is more than ordinarie, I mu&s;t needs confe&s;&s;e it is from the ble&s;sing of God vpon mee by his mini&s;trie this day, in the excellent things he deli|uered vnto the auditorie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I coniectured &s;o much of my &s;elfe, before you &s;pake, for the good opinion I iu&s;tly haue co~ceaued of you, but it dooth mee more good to haue heard it from your owne mouth.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I thank you &s;ir mo&s;t hartely, and much more than if you had reioyced with me, for &s;ome great gaine in outward things. For as my benefit herein is much greater; &s;o is your reioycing in my behalfe, a more &s;ure te&s;timonie of your godly and chri&s;tian loue towards me.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You take it well, and as you &s;hould: for if it be a gratefull and acceptable thing to worldly men, that their worldly friends &s;hould reioyce with them in their worldly pro&s;peritie, it is much more dutifull in the chil|dren of God to reioyce one with another in their &s;piritu|all profitings. But there is &s;ome thing concerning this matter, whereof I would gladly conferre with you: but I will not hinder you in this ha&s;t.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will &s;tay withyou a while if you plea&s;e, or if you will goe with me to the &s;ermon after dinner, I may by the way vnder&s;tand your minde.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The matter requireth &s;ome longer time, and
<PB REF="3"> for my going with you I would not refu&s;e, were it not that at the &s;ame howre our owne Pa&s;tor Ma&s;ter <HI>Timo|theus</HI> will according to his cu&s;tome bee occupied in the Catechi&s;me, with who&s;e &s;ermon in the forenoone I was &s;o well &s;ati&s;fied for mine in&s;truction and edifying, as I meane not to leaue him in the afternoone for any other.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>O &s;ir if you had heard this other man, you would haue &s;aid there had beene a great difference. And for my parte I de&s;ire to heare tho&s;e by whome I am mo&s;t edified.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>That is the &s;peciall point whereof I would willingly conferre with you: for I haue now along time ob&s;erued your ab&s;ence from our a&s;&s;embly. But becau&s;e this is no time to enter into &s;o long a di&s;cour&s;e, you &s;hall now departe vnto your owne hou&s;e, and when the after|noone &s;ermon is done, which I ge&s;&s;e will be about three of the clock: if it plea&s;e you to m&eacute;ete with me at my gar|den which lieth in your way, I will attend you there. And further I mo&s;t hartely pray you and your good wife, to take parte of my poore &s;upper. Your cheare &s;hall be meane, but your welcome I a&s;&s;ure you &s;hall be of the be&s;t.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I thanke you &s;ir with all my heart, more for the conference you haue promi&s;ed, than for the re&s;t: though I mu&s;t needes take in good part your &s;o louing and gentle inuitation. I will therefore for this time take my leaue, and meete you at the houre and place appoin|ted, by Gods grace.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Eutich.</SPEAKER>
<P>Who is at the gate?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>A friend: I pray you open the doore. Is your Ma&s;ter come as yet?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Eutich.</SPEAKER>
<P>He is come euen a little before you, and com|manded me to attend your comming to let you in.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Tell me I pray you, where is your Ma&s;ter that we may goe vnto him?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Eutich.</SPEAKER>
<P>He is walking with my Mi&s;tris in the fur|ther
<PB REF="4"> &s;ide of the garden. I will &s;hut the doore and bring you thether.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Doo &s;o my good youth.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>This is well that you are come &s;o timely, and more than I looked for, con&s;idering Ma&s;ter <HI>Eulalus</HI> was &s;o long in the forenoone.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>His paines were &s;o great then, that he was con|&s;trained now &s;omewhat to fauour him&s;elfe: albeit I promi&s;e you, hee made a mo&s;t excellent &s;ermon.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I doubt nothing thereof; and it both &s;&eacute;emed, and was the more excellent vnto you, becau&s;e you heard him with reuerence and attention, for want whereof, many loo&s;e the fruit of the greate&s;t graces of God. But you and my good neighbour are both mo&s;t hartely well|come to this place: and I thanke you for this paines.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Sir it is your great curte&s;ie to a&s;cribe that vnto vs which is your owne. But &s;ince it plea&s;eth you &s;o, I wil not contend with you; the rather that the time may &s;uffice to your promi&s;ed conference with me.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You &s;ay well, and I accord thereunto, as to the principall cau&s;e of our m&eacute;eting at this time. There|fore we will craue pardon of our wiues that they would &s;olace them&s;elues as plea&s;eth them for a while, and after they may bee partakers of that wee &s;hall conclude. You and I will &s;it or walke in this long arbour vntill &s;upper time: for you Gentlewomen, giue vs leaue a little with your fauour to that we haue in hand. Neighbour <HI>Arize|lus,</HI> I ioyed not a little in the forenoone to &s;&eacute;e you &s;o chearefully returne from hearing of the word of God: which was vnto mean vndoubted te&s;timony of the great loue and <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">auour of God towards you. But there is one thing whereat I do not a little meruaile, that you &s;hould &s;o greatly reioyce in the gifts of a &s;tranger, &amp; take &s;o lit|tle comfort and delight in his mini&s;terie whom the Lord e&s;pecially hath addicted vnto you.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I tolde you &s;ir in the morning, that in my
<PB REF="4"> iudgment there is no compari&s;on betweene the men. And of this I am &s;ure, that haning &s;eldome or neuer heard our owne pa&s;tor with anie fruite, I haue receiued great profite and comfort by this man.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The que&s;tion is not who&s;e gifts are more ex|cellent, but by who&s;e hand the Lord him&s;elfe doth offer vs mercie in the go&s;pell of his &s;onne Ie&s;us Chri&s;t. Whereupon al&s;o dependeth the promi&s;e of certeine and &s;ound edifieng.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Are you then mind that wee may heare none but our owne Pa&s;tors?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Not &s;o, for the Apo&s;tle &s;aith, we may prooue<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. The&s;&s;. 5. 21.</NOTE> all &s;pirits: and for mine owne part (as you well know) I heere al&s;o manie others. But this is my meaning, that in the times of our owne a&s;&s;emblies, I would not willinglie be ab&s;ent from thence: where my pre&s;ence is e&s;peciallie required.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What if our Pa&s;tors were vnapt to teach?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I am then of mind, as in the ca&s;e of the poore and nedie of this world, that wanting foode at home, they may lawfullie a&s;ke and take releefe abroad where|&s;oeuer the Lord &s;hall offer them mercie. But I hope you will thinke it a great &s;hame for rich men, and &s;uch as are competentlie prouided for, to beg their bread.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I think &s;o, but this ca&s;e differeth far from ours.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Not &s;o much perhaps as &s;emeth to you at this fir&s;t &s;ight.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Why &s;o?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>Is not the &s;ame God the father of our &s;pirits, who hath giuen vs the&s;e bodies, and the life whereby they liue.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>No doubt?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>Is it not the &s;ame God vpon whome we de|pend, as wel for the f&eacute;eding of our &s;oules, as for the nou|ri&s;hment of our bodies?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I graunt, for as in this outward life, man liueth
<PB REF="5"> not by bread onely: but by euerie word that proceedeth<NOTE PLACE="marg">Deut 8. 2.</NOTE> out of the mouth of God, &s;o in our &s;pirituall e&s;tate, I know and acknowledge it to be true, that the Apo&s;tle<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Cor. chap. 3. 6.</NOTE> &s;aith <HI>Paul planteth, and Apollo watereth, but it is God a|lone that giueth the encrea&s;e.</HI></P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>You &s;ay well: How &s;hall we then refu&s;e the prouidence of God in f&eacute;eding of our &s;oules: when wee &s;ubmit our &s;elues thereunto, in the nouri&s;hment of our bodies.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>This is ob&s;cure, I pray you &s;peake it more plainelie for my vnder&s;tanding.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I meruaile you &s;hould not vnder&s;tand this, but I will endeuour to expre&s;&s;e my mind more fullie and plainelie if I can. God, who as you haue alreadie gran|ted, is the Author of this bodie &amp; this life: is he al&s;o that di&s;tributeth the good thinges belonging to the reliefe and comfort of life, according to his own good plea&s;ure: and hath commaunded euery man to eat his own bread, and drinke the water of his owne Ce&s;terne: contenting<NOTE PLACE="marg">Pro. cha. 5. 15.</NOTE> him&s;elfe with his owne e&s;tate appoynted of the Lorde, not enuying or affecting that which in more abundance is granted vnto an other.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>It &s;eemeth rea&s;onable that you &s;aie: for no man may bee his owne caruer in the&s;e outward things, but thankefullie and patientlie content him&s;elfe with his owne mediocritie, and not break the bounds which the Lord him&s;elfe hath &s;et, and not man.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>So it is, and that men the better be contained within this compa&s;&s;e of the prouidence of almightie God: we &s;ee how mercifully the Lord dealeth with tho&s;e of the lower and poorer &s;ort: that hauing little and al|mo&s;t nothing in compari&s;on of others, and being char|ged with children and familie farre beyond them: they are yet both them&s;elues and theirs as healthfull and &s;trong in bodie, and euerie way as well graced in their outward per&s;ons, (and more al&s;o many times) as they <GAP DESC="missing" EXTENT="8 pages">
<PB N="15" REF="5"> which all confe&s;&s;e, as manie as knowe anie thing.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>If the Pa&s;tor mu&s;t f&eacute;ed his owne flocke, and that becau&s;e the Lord hath appointed vnto him to break vnto them the bread of life: tell mee (I pray you) how are not the people likewi&s;e bound to &s;ubmit them&s;elues vnto his mini&s;terie: and to receiue their foode at his hand, whom God hath commaunded to f&eacute;ede them? And how do they not withdrawe them&s;elues from the hand of the Lord, that withdrawe them&s;elues from the hand of their mini&s;ters? and con&s;equentlie depriue them&s;elues of that lawfull and iu&s;t meanes which God hath giuen them for their &s;aluation?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Your conclu&s;ion is verie peremptorie, and ra|ther forceth my iudgement, than leadeth mine affectio~.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I think &s;o; and I am per&s;waded that many of your minde, do rather offend of an exce&s;&s;e of zeale, then of any ground of knowledge. But you &s;hould remember<NOTE PLACE="marg">Rom. 10. 2.</NOTE> that zeale without knowledge maketh vs many times not to obey God. Who yet ought to bee the &s;ubiect and end of all our zeale.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>So &s;aith S. <HI>Paul</HI> of the <HI>Iewes:</HI> but how doth that belong vnto this cau&s;e?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will tell you in a word. And I tru&s;t you will heare it patiently and take it in good part; whil&s;t in an ignorant zeale you runne after &s;trangers, pre&s;uming without ground or warrant of the word, to be more edifi|ed by their Mini&s;terie, than by the Mini&s;terie of your owne Pa&s;tor, you preferre your owne fanta&s;ie before the ordinance and commandement of God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>How &s;o? I doo not yet &s;ee &s;o much.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It happeneth vnto many that their own pre|&s;umptions doo &s;o blind them, that they cannot &s;&eacute;e the things which are mo&s;t plaine and palpable.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You deale hardly with me, but &s;ay on.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I prayed you of patience before: but I will craue no fauour vnle&s;&s;e I prooue that which I affirme:
<PB N="16" REF="6"> it is the fir&s;t &s;tep vnto health to know our di&s;ea&s;e. Tel me I pray you, is not the Pa&s;tor co~manded to f&eacute;ed his flock, &amp; that of God; w^t promi&s;e of a ble&s;&s;ing vpon his labours.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>No doubt.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Tell me al&s;o in the pre&s;ence of God, without all re&s;pect of men (for I am here more afraide of your af|fection, than of your iudgement) is not the people like|wi&s;e commanded and that of God him&s;elfe, to take the bread of life at the hand of their Pa&s;tor; with promi&s;e of ble&s;&s;ing by his mini&s;terie vnto &s;aluation?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I did not thinke the people &s;o bound vnto their Pa&s;tor, as the Pa&s;tor is bound vnto his people. I de&s;ire to be further &s;atisfied in this point.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>To whom God co~mandeth any man to &s;peak, do you not think them bound to heare him that &s;peaketh?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Yes, but GOD &s;peaketh by all into who&s;e<NOTE PLACE="marg">2. Cor. 5. 19, 20.</NOTE> mouthes he hath put the word of reconciliation.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I graunt, but doth he &s;peak by euery pa&s;tor vn|to all churches, or to euery church by her owne Pa&s;tor?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>To euery church principally by her own Pa&s;tor.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I am glad you confe&s;&s;e &s;o much, though you might haue gon further without danger. I infer the~ vp|on your grant, that if God offer to teach euery a&s;&s;emblie principally as you &s;ay by their owne mini&s;ter, then euery people mu&s;t principally &s;&eacute;eke to be taught by their owne Mini&s;ter and not by others.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I &s;ee not how I may auoid the nece&s;sitie of this conclu&s;ion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It can by no meanes be auoided without mani|fe&s;t controlling both of the wi&s;dome &amp; goodnes of God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>How &s;o?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>God is not onely the author of the Mini&s;tery, but al&s;o the addre&s;&s;er and di&s;po&s;er of the &s;eueral labors of his &s;eruants. And therfore what iniurie is done vnto the ordinance of God&punc; by the Mini&s;ter that refu&s;eth to teach tho&s;e vnto whom he is particularly &s;ent: the &s;ame iniurie
<PB N="17" REF="6"> is done vnto his prouidence, by tho&s;e of the people that refu&s;e to be taught by him whom the Lord hath expre&s;&s;e|ly &s;ent vnto them, and vnto who&s;e mini&s;tery he hath &s;ub|iected them. And for the goodnes of God, as the cau&s;e thereof is in him onely and not in vs: &s;o it is vtterly no rea&s;on we &s;hould our &s;elues make choice of the meanes or of the men, by whome the &s;ame &s;hould be brought vnto vs, rather than with all thankfulnes, humilitie and re|uerence to receaue the &s;ame at the hands of tho&s;e by whom it plea&s;eth his Maie&s;tie to &s;end &amp; offer the &s;ame.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>My iudgement yeeldeth to that you &s;ay; but my heart and affection dooth yet &s;triue again&s;t it. I pray you therefore with patience &s;uffer mee yet further to obiect vnto you the cau&s;es, why I cannot &s;o fully and wholy agree vnto you.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>The iudgements of men if they bee not maliti|tiou&s;ly ob&s;tinate and wilfully &s;triue again&s;t the trueth, may bee informed or forced by weight of argument, and nece&s;&s;itie of conclu&s;ion, as I perceaue in your &s;elfe: but the hearts and affections of men cannot be wrought vp|on, nor ouer-ruled but by the only hand of God. Yet ho|ping that the Lord who hath ble&s;&s;ed our conference for the one, will al&s;o ble&s;&s;e our indeuour for the other; I wil not refu&s;e to &s;ati&s;fie you, as I may, in all your obiecti|ons, referring you further to tho&s;e, who both for their callings and gifts are better furni&s;hed to this purpo&s;e.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I thanke you right hartely, and I am per&s;wa|ded much more of your &s;ufficiencie hereunto than be|fore, and tru&s;t al&s;o that hee that ble&s;&s;ed you in the one will al&s;o ble&s;&s;e you in the other. And therefore I will o|pen vnto you my whole hart, requiring your faithfull coun&s;ell for my direction, and &s;ilence for my credit a|mong&s;t the godly.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>For coun&s;ell I can promi&s;e you no more than I haue receaued, wherein per&s;wade your &s;elfe, I will not b&eacute;e wanting vnto you: for &s;ilence, I will bee
<PB N="18" REF="7"> faithfull vnto you, as it may any way concerne your credit. But I am per&s;waded when you &s;hall &s;&eacute;e the depth of this error, and the &s;ubtiltie of this delu&s;ion, you will willingly acknowledge your owne abu&s;e in this matter, for the reformation of others, and thinke it your greate&s;t credite both with God and with his Church, to bewray in your owne example the frawde of our com|mon aduer&s;arie, and the power of this delu&s;ion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will (I promi&s;e you by Gods grace) refu&s;e to do nothing, which may either get honor vnto God, di&s;aduantage vnto the aduer&s;arie, or profit vnto Gods children.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You &s;hall do well in &s;o doing. Let vs there|fore proc&eacute;ede.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I haue promi&s;ed to be playne and open in all things, and I take it to be the be&s;t &amp; &s;afe&s;t cour&s;e, for &s;o I &s;hall lea&s;t abu&s;e your friend&s;hip, or deceyue my &s;elfe.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>So it is, and I for my part will deale as playnely with you. I pray you therefore &s;ay on.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Our Pa&s;tor <HI>M. Timotheus</HI> I haue alwayes e|&s;teemed and knowne to be a right hone&s;t and godly man, and one that walketh blamele&s;&s;e with his people. I al&s;o acknowledge his learning and vnder&s;tanding in holy things to be &s;ufficient for mine in&s;truction. Hee wanteth not al&s;o a plaine and ea&s;y kind of vtterance, neere vnto the meane and weake capacitie of the mul|titude: yet not to di&s;&s;emble with you (according to my promi&s;e) I neuer delighted in his Mini&s;terie, nor tooke my &s;elfe any thing edified thereby.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I graunt this might ea&s;ely happen vnto you, partly from your owne corruption, and partly from the fraud of y^<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter"> aduer&s;arie. And to &s;peake fir&s;t of your delight, I meruaile not alittle that any man &s;auoring the things of God, &amp; which belong vnto &s;aluation, &s;hould heare the~ without delight, con&s;idering that the Apo&s;tle crieth out<NOTE PLACE="marg">Rom. 10. 15.</NOTE> fro~ the words of the Prophet in the per&s;on of the faith|ful,
<PB N="19" REF="7"> O how bewtiful are the f&eacute;ete of tho&s;e that bring vn|to vs the glad tydings of peace, the glad tydings of good things: and that it happeneth many times euen<NOTE PLACE="marg">Math. 13. 20.</NOTE> to the reprobate them&s;elues to receiue the word with ioy, which yet bringeth foorth in them no con&s;tant and found fruite.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>So it is as you &s;ay. Yet I confe&s;&s;e how it hath fared with me.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You dare not &s;ay but that his doctrine hath b&eacute;ene alwayes &s;ound and true, taken out of the pure fountaynes of the holy and heauenly word of God, and that his care hath b&eacute;ene &s;incerely to preache vnto vs Chri&s;t Ie&s;us, and him crucified?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I mu&s;t needes giue him that te&s;timony.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>If then the doctrine taught be the doctrine of God, and the &s;ame worthie wherein both men and An|gells &s;hould reioyce, the cau&s;e of your vnchearefulnes and not reioycing mu&s;t n&eacute;edes be in your &s;elfe, and not in him.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Yet his mini&s;tery was alwayes dead and with|out &s;pirit in mine eares.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It happened vnto you which is ordinarie in tho&s;e that are di&s;tempered in their bodily health, who not only di&s;ta&s;te, but al&s;o reiect the be&s;t and mo&s;t whole|&s;ome meates that be offered vnto them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I knowe this by mine owne experience. But is there any &s;uch di&s;temper in the minde, as is in the bodye?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>No doubt, and you may likewi&s;e learne the &s;ame by your owne experience. For what can be the cau&s;e that the mo&s;t ioyfull and glad tidings of the Go&s;|pell &s;hould be vn&s;auery and loth&s;ome vnto you, were there not &s;ome euill humor in your minde, which &s;o op|pre&s;&s;eth your appetite and delight in heauenly things?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I delight in them I thanke God, when I heare them of tho&s;e whome I like.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="20" REF="8">
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is not then the things them&s;elues which are alwayes the &s;ame in the mouthes of all Gods faith|full mini&s;ters: but either the outward gifts and graces of the man, or your partiall (I had almo&s;t &s;aid your per|uer&s;e) affection towards the one, and again&s;t the other.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I haue re&s;olued to take any thing well at your hands, for that I am per&s;waded of your vnfained good meaning towards me.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The Lord our God who knoweth all &s;ecrets, &s;hall be witnes vnto me h&eacute;ereof. But partly my griefe, and partly want of iudgement in many that are ouer|borne of their owne fanta&s;ies, cau&s;eth me for their good to &s;peake &s;ometime more &s;harply than I would. Tell me I pray you as you will an&s;were it before the Lord, haue you heard of your newe teacher any point of doc|trine concerning faith or manners, which you haue not heard handled at one time or an other by our owne Pa&s;tor?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I can not &s;ay it to &s;ay truly that he teacheth any other or new doctrine, but that which I haue heard oftentimes before, both of our owne Pa&s;tor, and of o|thers; for I acknowledge in all of them one &s;pirit of truth, and an vnitie in veritie. But the handling is all, wherein this man pa&s;&s;eth all that I haue heard.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>It &s;eemeth you are of mind as they be that like no meate but of one mans dre&s;&s;ing. Remember you not<NOTE PLACE="marg">Prouer. 27. 7.</NOTE> the &s;aying of <HI>Salomon,</HI> That to the hungrie appetite, euen &s;oure things are &s;w&eacute;ete, but the full &s;tomack loa|theth the very hony combe? Is not this to receyue the<NOTE PLACE="marg">Iac. 2. 1.</NOTE> word of God with re&s;pect of per&s;ons, contrarie to the rule of the Apo&s;tle?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is not the man but his gifts, which I admire.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Tho&s;e are accidentall, and not of the &s;ub|&s;tance of the mini&s;tery; for God giueth vnto euery one as plea&s;eth him. Since then God hath not giuen one mea&s;ure of gifts, and grace of vtterance vnto all, it is
<PB N="21" REF="8"> be&s;t and &s;afe&s;t for vs to looke directly vnto the Lord, by whome they are &s;ent: and to that which is nece&s;&s;arie in all, and common vnto all, &s;oundnes of Doctrine, and whole&s;ome exhortation.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But is it not lawfull where more gifts of God are, to commend them more?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>Yes, we may pray&s;e God for all his benefits, and according to the multitude and greatnes of them. But let vs beware of that whereof <HI>S. Paule</HI> admoni&s;heth<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Cor. 4. 6.</NOTE> the <HI>Corinthians,</HI> that we be not puffed vp for one, a|gain&s;t an other.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I remember the words very well, but I pray you make the meaning of them yet more playne vnto me.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will tell you what I haue both heard and read of them. That it is a great offence to conceiue ouer highly euen of the mo&s;t excellent &s;eruants of God, as if<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Cor. 3. 5, 7.</NOTE> <HI>Paule</HI> were any thing, or <HI>Appollo</HI> any thing, but God who geueth the increa&s;e. For who was <HI>Paule,</HI> or who was <HI>Appollo,</HI> but the Mini&s;ters by whome they bel&eacute;e|ued? Secondly, that this ouerwening of &s;ome, wor|keth a di&s;like and contempt of others, who are no le&s;&s;e the Mini&s;ters of Chri&s;t than they, whome they do ad|mire. Who&s;e di&s;credit in their mini&s;tery redoundeth vn|to him that &s;ayd, He that contemneth you, contemneth<NOTE PLACE="marg">Luk. 10. 16.</NOTE> me.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>God be mercifull vnto mee. If this be true, then haue I greatly offended, and to confe&s;&s;e the truth. I haue not only mi&s;liked, but in my hart de&s;pi&s;ed and di&s;dained our owne &s;hepheard in compari&s;on of the o|ther; &s;uch was my mo&s;t vngodly partiality, and re&s;pect of men, rather than of God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I am right glad and humbly thanke the Lord for it, to heare you of this mind. I would the &s;ame per|&s;wa&s;ion were receiued of all. God &s;hould haue more ho|nor in his &s;eruants, and they more comfort in their la|bours,
<PB N="22" REF="9"> than now is geuen them of many.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will from hencefoorth by Gods grace mo|derate this ouerweening and delight. Yet I mu&s;t needs &s;ay that I haue profited more in a &s;hort time by this man, than in long time and many yeares by the other.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>What if you be al&s;o deceiued in this.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You haue &s;o forcibly ouer-ruled my delight, as I wil not refu&s;e to be examined of you likewi&s;e in this point of my profiting.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>And I am content to aduenture my labour, leauing the ble&s;&s;ing vnto GOD. You knowe before M. <HI>Timotheus</HI> came vnto vs, we were alwayes vnder an vnteaching Mini&s;tery, and that at his comming there was not in any of vs almo&s;t any true knowledge of God, and of his Sonne Ie&s;us Chri&s;t; for mine owne part I mu&s;t n&eacute;edes confe&s;&s;e it of my &s;elfe.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will al&s;o willingly ioyne with you in the &s;ame confe&s;sion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You &s;&eacute;e I haue b&eacute;ene no great &s;tragler abroad (though I haue not vnwillingly heard any) but haue con&s;tantly and continually frequented the Sermons and other exerci&s;es of our owne Pa&s;tor. Yet my profiting I thanke God hath b&eacute;ene &s;uch thorough his ble&s;&s;ing, as I n&eacute;ede neither to feare, nor to be a&s;hamed to confe&s;&s;e it; and you your &s;elfe haue in this our conference, had &s;ome triall thereof.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I alwayes knewe you diligent, but I had not thought you could by that meanes haue attayned to &s;o &s;ound knowledge. Now I &s;ee and acknowledge mine owne ignorance in compari&s;on of your mea&s;ure.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I humbly and thankefully acknowledge the ble&s;&s;ing of God vpon me in his owne ordinance: and I pray&s;e his holy name for the faithfulnes and diligence of mine owne Pa&s;tor, of whome, as from the mouth of God, I haue learned what&s;oeuer I haue learned. I will therefore be bolde to rea&s;on with you on this &s;ort.
<PB N="23" REF="9"> Your capacitie if it be not better, is at the lea&s;t equall with mine. By what meanes then came it to pa&s;&s;e, that you &s;hould not equally profit vnder the &s;ame Mini&s;terie?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I &s;ee your meaning; it is too cleare, and to com|mend our Mini&s;ter, and to lay the whole fault vppon mine owne negligence and vntowardnes.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I dur&s;t not my &s;elfe haue concluded &s;o hardly again&s;t you: yet pardon me, if I had rather lay the fault where it is, then where it is not. But what if your pro|fiting haue b&eacute;ene more by the mini&s;terie of your owne Shepheard, than you haue hetherto for lacke of thanck|fulnes, and due con&s;ideration of Gods mercie towards you, &s;ufficiently con&s;idered.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Can a man profit by him whom he mi&s;liketh?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>But if it be &s;o, you will then confe&s;&s;e that the worke of the Lord in you hath b&eacute;ene more myraculous and more mercifull, in that it is done both without and again&s;t your &s;elfe.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will willingly confe&s;&s;e it, if you can prooue it vnto me.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Haue you not heard &amp; knowne that men wal|king in the &s;unne, though they haue neither thought nor meant any &s;uch thing, yet haue bin coloured and &s;warted by the &s;ame?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I knowe it well. But what is this to your pur|po&s;e?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Verie much: for in like manner though you haue heard our Mini&s;ter negligently, and to &s;ay more, contemptuou&s;lie al&s;o: yet hath the Lord &s;hewed you this mercie, that you haue neuerthele&s;&s;e greatly profited vnder his mini&s;terie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>That is the thing in que&s;tion, which I require to be proued.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will proue it by your owne confe&s;&s;ion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>It were &s;trange you &s;hould doo &s;o, but I pray you proceed.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="24" REF="10">
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You confe&s;&s;ed with me euen now, that before his comming vnto vs you were as well as I, and others meerely ignorant of God and of his trueth.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>That I &s;ay againe, I cannot denie it.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is not many yeares nor very many mo|neths &s;ince you were acquainted with this new Mini|&s;tery.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You &s;ay true.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You confe&s;&s;ed al&s;o, that you neuer heard him teach any new point of doctrine, or propound any new exhortation which you had not heard often and many times of your owne Pa&s;tor before. Is it not then mani|fe&s;t that the knowledge you haue, what&s;oeuer it is, you had it by the Mini&s;tery of our owne pa&s;tor, and not by a|ny other?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I mu&s;t needes yeeld vnto the force of your ar|gument, and therefore I wil from hence foorth confe&s;&s;e that his mini&s;terie hath bin profitable vnto me, though I haue not di&s;cerned it. Yet the power of the word I felt not before I had heard this other man.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The &s;&eacute;ede is &s;owen by the &s;&eacute;edes-man in his time; the growth and fruite is re&s;erued to another &s;ea|&s;on, according to the &s;aying of the Apo&s;tle: The hu&s;band<NOTE PLACE="marg">Iac. 5. 7.</NOTE> man looketh for the fir&s;t and latter raine, yet is not the la|bor of the &s;ower vnprofitable, becau&s;e y^e fruite commeth not vntil the harue&s;t. So that your new Schoolema&s;ter was not the beginner of this worke, but rather a wate|rer and furtherer of the &s;ame, and vpon the matter, h&eacute;e hath entered vpon the labor of another, and reaped that,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Ioh. 4. 37, 38.</NOTE> another man hath &s;owne, and con&s;equently is the la&s;t and lea&s;t in this worke, euen as hee that watereth is le&s;&s;e than he that planteth. But take h&eacute;ede lea&s;t that wherein you mo&s;t reioyce, be not &s;ound.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What meane you thereby?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is an v&s;uall deceipt, of the aduer&s;arie to giue vs a kind of contentment and reioycing al&s;o in that
<PB N="25" REF="10"> which is extraordinary, to nouri&s;h vs &s;til in the contempt of that which is ordinarie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I know not yet what you meane.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Albeit I doubt not but GOD of his great goodnes towards you hauing begotten you by the Mi|ni&s;terie of one, hath brought you forth by the Mini&s;tery of another; &s;owne the good &s;eede of his Go&s;pell in your heart by one, and watered the &s;ame by another: yet I knowe there are many that hauing contemned the good hand of the Lord in the Mini&s;terie of tho&s;e that are &s;ent vnto them, doo nouri&s;h them&s;elues in a vaine opinion of great fruite, where in d&eacute;ede it is very little or none at all.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>How may that appeare?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Fir&s;t, becau&s;e they grow &s;till more and more in contempt of the ordinance of God e&s;pecially directed vnto them: and now not onely not loue nor reuerence their owne Mini&s;ters, but al&s;o hate and dete&s;t them, yea conceaue and &s;peake all euill of them without cau&s;e. Se|condly if it happen that by any meanes they be depriued or barred of that Mini&s;terie wherein they reioyce, and triumph again&s;t their owne: they are &s;o farre preiudica|ted in their owne conceipt, as they had rather depriue them&s;elues of all meanes, than to returne to the v&s;e of tho&s;e, which before they contemned. Whereof it many times commeth to pa&s;&s;e, that they are made a fit pray for the Browni&s;ts, Anabapti&s;ts, or the Familie of Loue.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>It were a dangerous thing to fall &s;o far<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e; yet I feare me it is too trew that you &s;ay; that &s;ome haue gon from their own to others, and from them to none at all, or to &s;uch, as haue carried them into mo&s;t &s;trang and dangerous opinions. But whereof I pray you commeth this?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Of an intollerable pride of minde, in which they per&s;wade them&s;elues they are wi&s;er than their tea|chers. Yea I haue with mine owne eares heard &s;ome of the~ &s;ay&punc; that they would not doubt if they were in y^e pul|pit,
<PB N="26" REF="11"> to make a better &s;ermon than their owne Pa&s;tors.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Let vs leaue the&s;e, and returne againe from whence we came. Yet I haue greatly profited by ma&s;ter <HI>Eulalus,</HI> if not in knowledge, which you haue copelled me to confe&s;&s;e, yet in affection and in the v&s;e of that which I knew before.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>What hundred, that from whom you receaued the beginning and foundation in the knowledge of holy things, from him you &s;hould not receaue the proc&eacute;eding and fruite of the &s;ame?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I knowe not.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>Neither can I giue you any other rea&s;on ther|of, but on the one &s;ide your owne negligence &amp; contempt which might worthely haue barred you of the whole as wel as of part, if the Lord had not &s;hewed you great mer|cie: on the other &s;ide the vn&s;peakable goodnes of God, that wherein you de&s;erued puni&s;hment, therein yet you &s;hould receaue a ble&s;&s;ing at his hand.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>So it is as you &s;ay, and now that God hath ope|ned mine eyes to &s;ee mine error, I wil by his grace amend it. But &s;ince you haue brought me home to mine owne Pa&s;tor, is it your meaning at once to barre mee of the v&s;e of all other mens gifts?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Nothing le&s;&s;e.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>How then?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>That you waite vpon the Lord in a continu|all and con&s;tant attendance vpon the Mini&s;terie of your owne Pa&s;tor: and for others, that you v&s;e them as extra|ordinarie meanes &s;ent of God, not to hinder but to helpe and &s;trengthen his ordinance, for that which is extraordi|narie is hurtfull, vnles it worke to the confirming and &s;trengthening of that which is ordinarie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>How &s;o?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I wil &s;hew it you by a very apt and fit &s;imilitude, which &s;ometime I heard from our owne preacher, as he co~plained of the fondnes &amp; vanity of &s;ome, which inamo|red
<PB N="27" REF="11"> with other mens gifts, de&s;pi&s;ed the ordinance of God in their lawfull and ordinarie teachers. There is (&s;aid he) nothing more to be wi&s;hed in the care of this life than y^t being alwaies of &s;ound &amp; perfect health, we may with|out di&s;like, and with a &s;ober and moderate delight, both v&s;e and enioye the good ble&s;&s;ings of God ordained for our nouri&s;hment. But becau&s;e it manie times falleth out, partlie from our owne di&s;order of life, partly from &s;ome outward occa&s;ion, that we are di&s;tempered and an|noyed in the e&s;tate of our health, &s;o as we di&s;ta&s;te and loath all our ordinarie and whole&s;ome nouri&s;hments: it is a &s;econd and the &s;ame no &s;mall fauour from the Lord, that we may here v&s;e the help of Phi&s;icke in things that are extraordinarie. Yet no man v&s;eth Phi&s;icke vnto that end, that he may alwaies after liue from the Apotheca|ries &s;hop: but that correcting from thence the di&s;temper of his bodie, he may afterwards with new and fre&s;h ap|petite returne to his ordinarie and naturall diet.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>How do you applie this &s;imiltude to our cau&s;e?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Thus: It happeneth vnto vs often times that as the Children of <HI>I&s;rael</HI> contemned and loathed <HI>Man|na,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Numb. 21.</NOTE> which at the fir&s;t they admired and wondered at: &s;o we receauing the word in the ordinarie Mini&s;terie ther|of with &s;ome ioy and gladne&s;&s;e in the beginning, doo af|terwards grow full and &s;atiated therewith, euen vnto loathing and contempt, as they did. If here the Lord to cure this maladie in his children, &s;hall rai&s;e vp anie man in his Church with extraordinarie giftes, and thereby quicken &amp; refre&s;h their dull and dead appetite, his mean|ing is not to holde them alwaies in this new diet, that they &s;hould ta&s;te and &s;auour nothing el&s;e, but this rare &amp; vnwonted proui&s;ion: but that being by this meanes cu|red of their former di&s;ea&s;e, they &s;huld after returne with more and better appetite, to their ordinarie &amp; v&s;ual man|ner of f&eacute;eding. Which thing wee &s;ee to come to pa&s;&s;e in tho&s;e that are bodelie &s;icke, that when they haue recoue|red
<PB N="28" REF="12"> their health they become exceeding hungrie, and find their appetite doubled and trebled in them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Now I &s;ee the end of this compari&s;on: that all extraordinarie helpes &s;ent of God &s;hould mini&s;ter and &s;erue vnto that which is ordinarie; and if they doo not, wee abu&s;e them to our hurt, and not v&s;e them to our good: &s;o that you tel me, the new &amp; great delight I take in the mini&s;terie of yonder man, wil do me harme &amp; no good, vnles I v&s;e it as a meanes to make me with more delight &amp; profit to attend the labors of our own pa&s;tor</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You haue hit it right. And that you may the rather be confirmed in this; I will propound vnto you a ca&s;e of experience, which once I heard of a godlie and learned Preacher of the Countrey. It was &s;o that &s;un|drie Churches there being furni&s;hed with able and lear|ned Mini&s;ters, and &s;ome al&s;o with men of great &amp; excel|lent gifts: there came by occa&s;ion into the Countrey, a man of no verie great learning, but of a &s;weete and de|licate &s;peach, who by his eloquence and &s;ome noueltie in the maner of teaching, &s;o drew the people after him, as now the ordinarie teachers in al places were of manie of their people &s;o far contemned &amp; de&s;pi&s;ed, as they would euen vpon the Saboth day trauaile 4. 6. or 10. miles to heare this &s;tranger, &amp; not vouch&s;afe to come out of their dores to heare their own pa&s;tors. This preacher not be|ing &s;o di&s;cr&eacute;et as he &s;huld haue b&eacute;en, interteined y^e people in this folly for a time; &amp; being afterward withdrawen fro~ the~, left y^e people in opinion, that now they were de|priued of al means to do them good. It plea&s;ed God that &s;hortly after there &s;huld come into y^e &s;ame countrey ano|ther preacher of great learning, godlines &amp; zeale and of &s;ingular wi&s;edome for the right managing of his Mini|&s;terie to the profite of the people.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I expect the end of this mans labors.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will tell you as briefely as I can. The people thought that GOD had &s;ent them a notable
<PB N="29" REF="12"> &s;upplie of their former want, and in great multitudes from all places re&s;orted vnto his &s;ermons. When he &s;awe the flocking and thronging of the people after him, and that no place was &s;ufficient to receiue the number that followed him, con&s;idering that many of them of his owne knowledge had Pa&s;tors of their owne, both able in gifts and faithfull for their pietie to teach the trueth of God: he began to adui&s;e by what meanes he might be&s;t remedie this euill, and in the end re&s;olued to v&s;e the &s;hort time of his abode in that place, to that purpo&s;e. From that time he &s;o laboured with the people for the loue and liking of their owne Pa&s;tors, plainlie noting and prouing vnto them their former vanitie, as vnto this day the fruit of his labours is extant in tho&s;e places, both in rai&s;ing vp the heads of the Pa&s;tors di&s;couraged, and in the loue and diligence of the people towards their mini&s;terie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>A notable cure of a mo&s;t dangerous di&s;ea&s;e. I would to GOD wee had &s;ome &s;uch Phi&s;itions a|mong&s;t vs, for I now more &amp; more &s;ee it to be mo&s;t nece&s;&s;arie in this generall di&s;ea&s;e of the multitude.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I al&s;o pray the &s;ame, and hope that the Lord in good time will &s;hewe mercie vnto his people in this Ci|tie, and &s;o much the more, for that this follie is now growne among&s;t vs vnto the full, &amp; the inconuenience thereof beginneth more to appeare than euer heretofore, and many of the wi&s;er &s;ort of the people are greatlie grieued and offended at it. For mine owne part I con|fe&s;&s;e, I haue &s;eene it often with griefe, that &s;trangers euen of meane gifts in compari&s;on, haue been followed with &s;uch numbers, as the place hath not been able to containe the multitude, when others who&s;e mini&s;terie is con&s;tant and ordinarie, were almo&s;t de&s;titute and for|&s;aken of their auditories.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Seeing we haue proceeded thus far in this argu|me~t, let me I pray obtain this fauor at your ha~ds, brief|ly to reme~ber vnto me the rea&s;ons for which we &s;hould
<PB N="30" REF="13"> attend our owne Pa&s;tors, and not follow the nouel|tie of &s;trange teachers.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will not refu&s;e to take any paines that you may be &s;etled in this per&s;wa&s;ion: that when you haue reaped the fruit and comfort thereof, you may be an au|thor and coun&s;eller of the &s;ame vnto others.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I meane by Gods grace &s;o to do, and there|fore I de&s;ire to bee throughly grounded in the rea|&s;ons thereof.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You are per&s;waded I tru&s;t that there is no|thing more nece&s;&s;arie, nor more duetiful in the children of GOD, than that for all his goodnes towards them, they &s;hould woor&s;hip and &s;erue him according to his word.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>That I am: E&s;peciallie &s;eeing the Prophet <HI>Dauid</HI> findeth nothing to render vnto the Lord for all his mercies, but onely to take the cup of &s;alua|tion,<NOTE PLACE="marg">P&s;al. 116. 13.</NOTE> and to prai&s;e his holie name.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>What thinke you of the place wherein wee<NOTE PLACE="marg">Of the place of wor&s;hip.</NOTE> are to wor&s;hip and &s;erue the Lord our God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>That (as the Apo&s;tle &s;aith) men may now<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Tim. 2. 8.</NOTE> &s;ince the comming of Chri&s;t, in al places lift vp pure hands vnto God without wrath and doubtfulnes.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You haue fitlie alledged the words of <HI>S. Paule,</HI> But con&s;ider with me a little how farre they do extend. It cannot bee denied but the &s;pirituall wor&s;hip of God, becau&s;e it is an action of the minde, oftentimes &s;epara|ted from the action of the bodie, maie at all times and in all places bee offered vp vnto his Maie&s;tie. Al&s;o our priuate exerci&s;es of Gods wor&s;hip are not fixed or tied to any place, but wee may where&s;oeuer and when&s;oeuer opportunitie &s;halbe offered and wee &s;halbe moued there|unto, performe this part of honor vnto him. But what thinke you of the publique and &s;olemne wor&s;hip of God in the a&s;&s;emblie of his Saincts? I &s;peake not now of extraordinarie occa&s;ions of trauaile and iorney, or the
<PB N="31" REF="13"> like, but of our con&s;tant and perpetuall &s;eruing of God in the congregation of his people.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I had rather heare your iudgement, than v&s;e mine owne coniecture in this ca&s;e. Yet I am per&s;waded that publique things &s;hould be done publiquely.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You then mi&s;like tho&s;e which withdraw them|&s;elues from the a&s;&s;emblie, and drawe the publique exer|ci&s;es of religion into their priuate hou&s;es, when they might with &s;mall paines ioyne them&s;elues with the re&s;t of their brethren.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I vtterly mi&s;like them for many cau&s;es. Fir&s;t, they make the publique things of the Lord priuate, con|trarie to their ordinance and in&s;titution; as the papi&s;ts were wont to haue prie&s;ts in their hou&s;es to &s;ing Ma&s;&s;e &amp;c. vnto them at home. Secondly, they rend them|&s;elues from the holy a&s;&s;emblie, whereof the holy men of God haue made &s;o great and &s;o high account. Thirdly,<NOTE PLACE="marg">P&s;al. 84.</NOTE> they refu&s;e to wor&s;hip God, there, where e&s;pecially hee requireth to be wor&s;hipped. Fourthly, they grieue the minds of the godly, &amp; offend the weake Chri&s;tian. Fi|nallie the faithfull want the fruite and comfort of their companie, and example in the &s;eruice of God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I am glad you are &s;o well furni&s;hed in &s;o good a cau&s;e, &s;ome of the&s;e arguments will &s;erue our turne af|terwards to another purpo&s;e. But to come againe to the publique place of the wor&s;hip of God, doo you thinke the &s;ame to be fixed and certaine vnto vs, as it was vnto the <HI>Iewes</HI> vnder the law, who might offer &s;acrifices no where els but at <HI>Ieru&s;alem,</HI> and in the temple there?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Not &s;o, for Mount Sion is now euerie where,<NOTE PLACE="marg">E&s;a. 2. 3.</NOTE> where&s;oeuer the name of God is truely called vpon by his people.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>But I demand whether if the peace of the Church doo &s;o permit, there may not and ought not to be a certaine and fixed place for the a&s;&s;emblie vnto the publique exerci&s;e of Religion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="32" REF="14">
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You meane not to make Religion of the place as vnder the Law, contrarie to the &s;aying of Chri&s;t to the Woman of <HI>Samaria</HI> in the fourth of <HI>Iohn, That the time was then come, that the true wor&s;hippers of God, &s;hould neither wor&s;hip in</HI> Ieru&s;alem, <HI>nor in mount</HI> Gera|zim.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Iohn. 4&punc; 21.</NOTE></P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I holde no Religion of one place, but of a place. God commanded the <HI>Iewes</HI> to wor&s;hip at <HI>Ieru|&s;alem,</HI> and therefore they might not for anie cau&s;e re|mooue the wor&s;hip of God from thence, vnto anie other place. We may wor&s;hip God euerie where, that is, in all Countreyes, Regions, and places of the Worlde. Yet mu&s;t it n&eacute;edes bee, that wee wor&s;hippe him &s;ome where, and not vncertainly and indefinitely euerie where.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>God vnder the Law appointed the place him &s;elfe where his name &s;hould dwel, which might not af|terwards be altred by man as you &s;aid before&punc; But now he hath a&s;signed vs no place.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Yet the publique wor&s;hip of God euen from his owne ordinance, draweth with it the nece&s;&s;itie of a place, the appointment whereof for the particular, bee|ing left vnto the wi&s;edome of the Church, when it is once thereby a&s;&s;igned, then I &s;ay it ought to be vnto vs for the time as mount <HI>Sion:</HI> and as Mount <HI>Sion</HI> was called holie vnto the Lord and vnto his people, not for it &s;elfe, but for the pre&s;ence and beautie of God, appea|ring there vnto his Churche as the Prophet &s;aieth: &s;o<NOTE PLACE="marg">P&s;al. 27. 4.</NOTE> are the places of our a&s;&s;emblies holie vnto GOD, and vnto vs, not for them&s;elues, but becau&s;e all the holy things of God are there pre&s;ented and di&s;tributed vnto vs.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I vnder&s;tand your meaning to be this, that the place it &s;elfe beeing by nature and libertie indifferent, being once cho&s;en to be the &s;eate of the &s;eruice of God, is now no more indifferent vnto vs, but wee are bound
<PB N="33" REF="14"> thereunto by the authoritie of the Church, but much more for that the name of GOD is now there, and the holie ordinances of GOD which doo te&s;tifie his pre&s;ence in his Churche, doo worthelie make the place for the time and for the v&s;e no le&s;&s;e holie vn|to vs, than was the temple of Ieru&s;alem vnto the Iewes.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You vnder&s;tand mee well. Here I pray you remember that which I &s;aid and proued in the begin|ning, that God him&s;elf hath ordained, not onely that a&s;|&s;emblies &s;hould be gathered vnto his name, but al&s;o that the &s;ame &s;hould bee diuided and di&s;tingui&s;hed aptly and fitly for the m&eacute;eting and edifying of his people. And therefore I am of minde for our congregations as they are now among&s;t vs, that &s;ome for their &s;malnes both in number and of maintenance &s;hould be vnited, and &s;ome againe for their greatnes and confu&s;ion of multitude &s;hould be deuided, but this onely by the way.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is true you &s;ay, for euen in this Citie I know &s;ome Pari&s;hes &s;o great and populous, that &s;ome tenne of the re&s;t will not amount vnto their greatnes, but let this pa&s;&s;e at this time.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I &s;ay then, as euerie one in the ciuile e&s;tate knoweth his owne Citie, and vnto what gouernement both he and his whole hou&s;e dooth belong: &s;o it ought to be in the Church, that euery particuler Chri&s;tian &s;hould bee annexed vnto one certaine a&s;&s;embly, and be there en|rouled as a member of that &s;ociety to liue vnder the Mi|ni&s;terie and gouernement thereof, and not to remooue or withdrawe him&s;elfe for any cau&s;e, vnle&s;&s;e the nece&s;&s;itie of his e&s;tate doo require his tran&s;planting from one a&s;|&s;emblie to another.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I cannot take you &s;o hardelie, as to thinke you would become a patron of an vnlearned and vnpreach|ing mini&s;terie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="34" REF="15">
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I haue auoyded that &s;u&s;pition before. But if you will, wee will &s;peake &s;omewhat of our in&s;ufficient mini&s;terie afterward. Now let vs followe that which we haue in hand.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will not faile to put you in minde of this promi&s;e: for there are many difficulties about this poynt. Proceed as you thinke good.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Now that I haue euicted the nece&s;&s;itie of one certaine place vnto euerie a&s;&s;emblie for the publique woor&s;hippe of GOD, and that euerie member of the &s;ame a&s;&s;emblie mu&s;t &s;eeke the Lord and &s;erue him in the place appoynted for that purpo&s;e; it followeth by iu&s;t con&s;equence of rea&s;on, that whom the Lord hath &s;et ouer that a&s;&s;emblie for doctrine and admonition, where|in e&s;peciallie hee is honoured of vs, from him in no &s;ort we may withdrawe our &s;elues, vnle&s;&s;e wee will refu&s;e the Lord to bee our lawgiuer, and di&s;daine to learne at the mouth of him, whom his maie&s;tie hath &s;et ouer vs for that &s;eruice.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>The &s;umme of your di&s;cour&s;e hetherto is thus much, that wee mu&s;t wor&s;hip God where hee hath appoynted vs, and learne of him from tho&s;e whom he hath commanded to teach vs.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You haue gathered it truely. And for the la&s;t, if God haue put into their mouthes the word of reconci|liation, to &s;ay vnto vs in the name of the Lord bee ye re|conciled<NOTE PLACE="marg">2. Cor 5. 15.</NOTE> vnto God, and haue made them amba&s;&s;adors for his name &s;ake: who is he that &s;hall ouerrule the or|dinance and coun&s;ell of God, or refu&s;e to &s;ubmit him&s;elf vnto his mo&s;t holie and mercifull a&s;&s;ignement? Our owne profite and edifying leadeth vs vnto the &s;elfe&s;ame conclu&s;ion: for where &s;hall wee rather hope to receiue good, than vnder that mini&s;terie which the Lord hath &s;et ouer vs? And from whom &s;hall we rather hope and ex|pect the ble&s;&s;ing of God, than from him who&s;e labours he hath promi&s;ed to ble&s;&s;e, and vnder whom the ble&s;&s;ing
<PB N="35" REF="15"> is promi&s;ed vnto our &s;elues. For &s;eeing our &s;aluation is from God, there is no rea&s;on we &s;hould rather choo&s;e from who&s;e hands wee would receiue it, than humblie and thankfullie accept it from him by whom it plea&s;eth the Lord to offer it. Call to minde in this place the &s;ay|ing of the Apo&s;tle to the <HI>Hebrewes.</HI> Be obedient vnto<NOTE PLACE="marg">Heb. 13. 17.</NOTE> your leaders, and &s;ubmit your &s;elues vnto them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I vnder&s;tand the nece&s;sitie and force of this conclu&s;ion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Yet marke the rea&s;on that followeth in the &s;ame place: for they watch for your &s;oules, as they that &s;hall render an accompt. Vpon the&s;e words I inferre thus much, that if they watch for our &s;oules, wee &s;hould al&s;o waite vpon the voyce of the&s;e watchmen, whom the Lord hath charged with vs for &s;aluation. And if they mu&s;t render an accompt for our &s;oules, mu&s;t not we al&s;o render an accompt of their labours be&s;towed vpon vs:</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I agree al&s;o vnto this.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It followeth, That they may do it with ioye, and not with mourning.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What do you ob&s;erue vpon the&s;e words?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>That it is the duetie of the people of God, by their obedience vnto the Go&s;pell of Chri&s;t in the mini|&s;terie of their own Pa&s;tors, to giue the &s;eruants of God all comfort and cau&s;e of reioycing in their labours, and to beware they procure not their teares, as which the Apo&s;tle &s;aith, &s;hall not be profitable vnto them. Euerie man de&s;ireth the comfort of his trauailes. How much more the Mini&s;ter of God, who is the Lords hu&s;band|man to till and &s;owe in the fielde of the Lords hu&s;ban|drie,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Ioh. 4. 35.</NOTE> that both he that planteth and he that watreth maie reioyce.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You drawe then an other argument from the comfort and incouragement of the Mini&s;ter.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>True. And thereunto I adde that of the Lord vnto <HI>Ezekiel,</HI> that whether they heare, or they heare not,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Ezek. 2. 7.</NOTE>
<PB N="36" REF="16"> yet let them knowe that the word of the Lord is come vnto them: which as the Apo&s;tle &s;aith, is euermore a &s;weet &s;auour vnto God, whether it be of life vnto life in<NOTE PLACE="marg">2. Cor 2. 15, 16.</NOTE> tho&s;e that do receiue it, or of death vnto death, in tho&s;e that do reiect it.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>This is an hard conclu&s;ion; but it mu&s;t needs &s;tand, becau&s;e it is from God him&s;elfe. Is there yet any more?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The Mini&s;ter of God in our ab&s;ence wanteth the a&s;&s;i&s;tance of our praiers vnto the Lord for him in his mini&s;terie, which wee &s;ee the Apo&s;tles them&s;elues cra|ued mo&s;t earne&s;tlie, euen when they were el&s;where em|ployed.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Ephe. 6. 19.</NOTE> Hee wanteth the countenance, comfort and in|couragement of our pre&s;ence for him&s;elfe; and the hope of the benefite of our example vnto others. For if it bee true that <HI>Salomon</HI> &s;aith. As yron is &s;harpned with yron,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Prouer. 27. 17.</NOTE> &s;o the face of a friend &s;harpneth a ma~; me thinketh there &s;hould be an e&s;peciall effect and grace thereof in the pre|&s;ence of the people before their Pa&s;tor. Moreouer, the neglect of our owne mini&s;terie offereth iu&s;t occa&s;ion of griefe vnto our godlie neighbours, while&s;t their con|&s;ciences do condemne vs in that which we follow. Now you know y^t we are to labour for a good report euen from<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. The&s;. 4. 12.</NOTE> tho&s;e which are without, how much more from tho&s;e that are within? Then al&s;o wee cau&s;e to &s;tagger tho&s;e that bee weake, who &s;eeing vs to neglect the ordinances of God, are nouri&s;hed vnto the &s;ame contempt. La&s;tly, where we ought to walk profitablie towards tho&s;e that are without, we do by this meanes further e&s;trange the~ fro~ religion, &amp; are rather bars &amp; impediments vnto the~, than helps and furtherances to bring them vnto God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You haue &s;poken &s;ufficientlie of the duetie we owe vnto our owne Pa&s;tors, tell me now likewi&s;e of tho&s;e that are not our owne.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I haue &s;aid we may v&s;e their mini&s;terie in times conuenient with the cautions before mentioned. But let it al&s;o be prouided, that we doo not confirme by our
<PB N="37" REF="16"> example others that looke vpon vs, in the contempt of their owne Mini&s;ters. Be&s;ides by this meanes it com|meth to pa&s;&s;e many times through our incon&s;iderate zeale, that we intercept iniuriou&s;ly the bread of life, from tho&s;e to whom e&s;pecially it is commanded to be broken. This &s;eemeth nothing vnto many, but in my iudgeme~t it is no &s;mall offence: for if I may not couet my neigh|bours wife, &amp;c. how can I iu&s;tifie the taking away of that which importeth him more tha~ all the things of this life? which is this day done of many, who in the ra&s;hnes of their zeale thru&s;t them&s;elues into the places of tho&s;e which are the proper &amp; natural me~bers of that a&s;&s;emblie. To &s;ay nothing of that iniurie which we would not &s;uf|fer in worldly things: in that we f&eacute;ed our &s;elues at other mens co&s;t, and &s;uffer them not to enioy the fruit of their owne expence. Thus f<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">rre haue I laboured to &s;ati&s;fie you in this matter.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I require no more, it is enough that you haue &s;aid to this purpo&s;e: and I hope I am furni&s;hed &s;uffici|ently both for mine owne &s;tay and direction, and al&s;o for the in&s;truction of others. If I faile or doubt in anie thing, I will be bolde to trouble you.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It &s;hall be no trouble to me to doo you good: and to performe the dutie I owe vnto you. And there|fore you &s;hall alwaies find me readie and willing to &s;a|ti&s;fie you, as the Lord &s;hall make me able.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I humblie thanke the Lord for his mercy, and you for your kindnes towards me. You haue forced me by waight of argument to attend mine owne Pa&s;tor, I haue &s;ignified vnto you, that hetherto I haue bin barred from the fruit of his mini&s;tery, I pray you therefore de|clare vnto me how I may carry my &s;elf to receaue fruit, whence before in mine opinion I receaued none.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I haue in part confuted that opinion already, if you remember what hath pa&s;&s;ed betw&eacute;ene vs, both by in|&s;tance in your &s;elfe, and by my poore example. But you
<PB N="38" REF="17"> propound a very nece&s;&s;arie thing to bee well examined: and therefore if you thinke good wee will dwell vpon it a little; for as I thinke it nece&s;&s;arie men &s;hould be per&s;wa|ded<NOTE PLACE="marg">How to heare aright.</NOTE> to heare, and directed whom to heare; &s;o I thinke it no le&s;&s;e nece&s;&s;arie they bee taught how to heare, con&s;ide|ring that our Sauiour Chri&s;t after hee had expounded the parable of the &s;ower and the &s;&eacute;ede, in the end conclu|deth with this admonition vnto all: take h&eacute;ede how you heare.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Luk. 8. 18.</NOTE></P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I am glad I haue offered you this occa&s;ion, for me thinketh it promi&s;eth &s;ome good in&s;truction.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>There are &s;ome that pre&s;ent them&s;elues vnto the Mini&s;terie of the word for fa&s;hion, for companie, and for cu&s;tom, who&s;e fault is palpable and more gro&s;&s;e than that I n&eacute;ed to confute it. Others there are who thinke it enough to be pre&s;ent, how&s;oeuer they bee occupied in the meane time: &s;ome by excerci&s;e of their priuate deuo|tion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>How meane you that?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>My meaning is, that the publique actions of the church mu&s;t be publiquely attended of all the a&s;&s;em|bly, and that there is here neither time nor place vnto a|ny thing that is priuate. For the Mini&s;ter is alwaies ei|ther the mouth of God to &s;peake vnto vs from him, or the mouth of the congregation to &s;peake vnto the Lorde for vs; or the action is common to the whole Church.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You mi&s;like then in the a&s;&s;embly, that in the time of publique praier, preaching, &s;acraments or &s;ing|ing of P&s;almes, any one &s;houlde occupie them&s;elues in priuate reading, praier or meditation, and not ioyne them&s;elues in mind &amp; in action with tho&s;e, with whom they haue ioyned them&s;elues in bodilie pre&s;ence.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I vtterly mi&s;like it, as a manife&s;t contempt of the ordinance of GOD, and a diuiding of them&s;elues with di&s;daine from the communion of his &s;aincts.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But you thinke it profitable to v&s;e our bookes
<PB N="39" REF="17"> for our better helpe to profite by the word read or preached.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>So it is, onely if it binde vs neerer vnto the publique action of the Church, and carrie vs not away from the &s;ame. Otherwi&s;e it were better for the time, we occupied our eares than our eyes.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What is your opinion of tho&s;e that thinke it enough to heare now and then.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I thinke of tho&s;e as of treuants in &s;choole, that their daliance will leaue them little fruite in the ende, vnle&s;&s;e it be to make them more without all excu&s;e.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What is then your adui&s;e?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>That wee heare con&s;tantly and continually, which hath this fruite that the former hearers doo de|priue them&s;elues of; that where the word is continual|lie preached and interpreted out of &s;ome ordinarie text, there they doo better conceiue the coherencie and knit|ting together of the word; a good helpe for the increa&s;e of &s;ounder vnder&s;tanding.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Is that enough?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>No, there mu&s;t bee al&s;o a diligent care and en|deuour to profite.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What do you require thereunto?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Preparation before wee heare: pre&s;ence of mind and attention in our hearing; meditation &amp; prac|ti&s;e after we haue heard.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>How may wee be fitlie prepared to heare the<NOTE PLACE="marg">Preparation.</NOTE> word?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Fir&s;t, we mu&s;t ca&s;t away all preiudice and par|tialitie, which I tell you, are great lets vnto many, and make their hearing vnprofitable. Then turning our eies from m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter">, we mu<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters"> let our &s;elues in the pre&s;ence of God, with whom e&s;peciallie we haue to do in this action: for which cau&s;e the mini&s;terie of the word, is called the face<NOTE PLACE="marg">Mala. 42. <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">.</NOTE> or image of God, al&s;o his mouth &amp; oracle in the Church.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Doo you require this in a learned hearer as
<PB N="40" REF="18"> well as in the vnlearned?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>No le&s;&s;e in the one than in the other. For as much as all here are di&s;ciples vnto God, &amp; not to man.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But can he that hath more learning profite by him that hath le&s;&s;e?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>No doubt.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>How may that be?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Many waies, euen in that wherein you would lea&s;t thinke, as in knowledge it &s;elfe. For the Lord &s;pea|king in the mouth of his mini&s;ter, many times teacheth the wi&s;e by the &s;imple, &amp; the great learned man, by him that is farre inferiour vnto him&s;elfe; as I haue heard diuers confe&s;&s;e. And we reade that Chri&s;t him&s;elfe was often pre&s;ent at the &s;ermons of <HI>Iohn:</HI> the Prophets di&s;dained not the mini&s;terie of the Prie&s;tes, but were<NOTE PLACE="marg">Hag. 2. 11, 12.</NOTE> content to learne the lawe of them. The Doctors of the Church heare their Pa&s;tors. This the Lord doth both for his owne honour, and to humble the hie&s;t men with|all: for there is no learning &s;o great in any man, that can free him from the nece&s;&s;itie of hearing the word.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What more?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Faith is not only a knowledge of the doctrine of &s;aluation, but al&s;o an applying of the &s;ame vnto our owne particuler. Now the mini&s;terie of the Go&s;pell as it fir&s;t begetteth faith in the hearts of men, &s;o doth it af|terwards nouri&s;h and encrea&s;e the &s;ame by the ordinance of God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I &s;ee manife&s;tlie the trueth of this. And I re|member S. Paule &s;aith, that he hoped to profite by<NOTE PLACE="marg">Rom. 1. 12.</NOTE> the Romanes, as they &s;hould by him.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>There is a nece&s;&s;arie v&s;e of the Mini&s;terie vn|to all, euen for remembrance, wherein how <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 word"> wee faile all, I tru&s;t you will confe&s;&s;e.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I &s;ub&s;cribe al&s;o vnto this, the rather for the experience I haue of mine owne forgetfulnes: for which cau&s;e among&s;t other as I take it, the Apo&s;tle
<PB N="41" REF="18"> &s;aid vnto the Philippians; It was profitable for the~<NOTE PLACE="marg">Philip. 3. 1.</NOTE> hee &s;hould often write vnto them the &s;ame things, and it &s;hould not be grieuous vnto him &s;o to do.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The place is fitlie alledged to this purpo&s;e. And if the Mini&s;ter of God mu&s;t not thinke much to doo it, &amp; that without loth&s;omnes, how &s;hall not the people thinke it nece&s;&s;arie &amp; profitable for them&s;elues to heare it? But to let this pa&s;&s;e, what thinke you of zeale vnto Gods glorie, loue of his truth, &s;tudie of righteou&s;nes, &s;trength again&s;t &s;inne in all the temptations thereof, comfort in afflictions, confirmation and defence again&s;t all error and here&s;ie, charitie towards our neighbours; haue they not need of continual helpe and encrea&s;e from the ordinance of God?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>No doubt, vnle&s;&s;e men bee ignorant of the corruptio~ of nature, their owne weaknes, the &s;ubtil|tie, power, and malice of the aduer&s;arie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Be&s;ides all this, let it bee con&s;idered, that the v&s;e of the Mini&s;terie is not more for the in&s;tructing, co~|firming, and increa&s;ing of iudgement, than for the orde|ring, ruling and menaging of our affections, and be|longeth as well vnto the heart, as to the head: and &s;o much the more, becau&s;e <HI>Salomon</HI> &s;aith, Aboue all kee|pings<NOTE PLACE="marg">Prouer. 4. 21&punc; 23.</NOTE> keepe thine heart.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What is further required vnto preparation?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>That wee come not onely with religion and reuerence vnto God and his word, but al&s;o with hearts humbled and readie to receiue what &s;hall be faithfullie deliuered, and to bee affected according to the occa&s;ion offered, whether it be of ioy, griefe, feare, hope, or what|&s;oeuer.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>How may the&s;e things be obtained?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Not otherwi&s;e than by praier vnto the Lord, for the a&s;&s;i&s;tance of his holie &s;pirit, and by diligent and painfull labouring with our owne hearts. And thus much for our owne preparation.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="42" REF="19">
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I perceaue it is not &s;o ea&s;ie a thing to heare a|right and with profit, as the World thinketh. In hea|ring you require pre&s;ence of mind, and attention to that is taught.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The fir&s;t again&s;t the rouing and wandring cogitations of mans heart, which for humaine vncon|&s;tancie and lenitie of minde, often times carrie vs from the be&s;t things: al&s;o again&s;t tho&s;e deceipts whereof w&eacute;e heard before, of intertaining any other action or meditati|on of pietie, that might withdraw vs from the pre&s;ent occa&s;ion and dutie required. La&s;tly again&s;t that weari|nes and yrck&s;omnes of hearing, whereby it happeneth that we are as men &s;et vpon thornes, impatient, di&s;con|tent, and angrie that we are detained from that we more de&s;ire, which oftentimes appeareth in our ha&s;t to bee gone, whil&s;t wee abide not the praier after the Sermon, much le&s;&s;e the p&s;alme and ble&s;&s;ing in the end, which yet<NOTE PLACE="marg">Deu. 27. 9. 12.</NOTE> I thinke to bee a nece&s;&s;arie part of the Mini&s;ters dutie, and with al reuerence and humilitie to be attended of the people, as pronounced out of the mouth of GOD him|&s;elfe. The &s;econd, to teach vs according to the greatnes of the grace offered vnto vs, and of our nece&s;&s;itie to re|ceaue the &s;ame; with all care, watchfulnes and diligence to waite vpon the hand of the Lord, in the Mini&s;terie of his word: remembring the coun&s;ell of wi&s;e <HI>Salomon:</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Prou. 2. 4.</NOTE> That we mu&s;t &s;&eacute;eke for wi&s;dome as for gold, and digge for her as for trea&s;ure, yea hunger and thir&s;t after her as dooth the drie ground for the deaw of Heauen: which we &s;hall the rather doo, if with <HI>Dauid</HI> wee e&s;t&eacute;eme the price<NOTE PLACE="marg">P&s;al. 119. 103.</NOTE> thereof aboue all trea&s;ures, and the comfort thereof grea|ter than is the &s;w&eacute;etenes of the hony and the hony comb.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>It remaineth you &s;houlde &s;peake of our dutie after hearing.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>In this part I required meditation, and prac|tize<NOTE PLACE="marg">Dutie after hearing. Meditation.</NOTE> of that which wee haue heard. Meditation, again&s;t the negligence and &s;ecuritie of tho&s;e, who hold the word
<PB N="43" REF="19"> no longer in minde, than the &s;ound of the &s;ame is in their eares, which appeareth by this, that they are no &s;ooner ri&s;en from their &s;eates, than their harts and tongues are gone after &s;ome other thing, according to the vaine de|light and affection of euerie one: where we read that the <HI>Iewes</HI> after they heard <HI>Peter</HI> preach, came vnto him and his fellowe Apo&s;tles, &s;aying; <HI>Men and brethren, what</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Act. 2. 37.</NOTE> <HI>&s;hall we doo?</HI> The people of <HI>Beroea</HI> are al&s;o commen|ded<NOTE PLACE="marg">Act. 17. 11.</NOTE> by the holie Gho&s;t, for that after the preaching of <HI>Paule,</HI> they examined his Doctrine by the Scriptures of God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Great is the contempt of manie in this kind.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>There is al&s;o another v&s;e of meditation, more deepely to imprint into our mindes, and &s;ettle in our memories that we haue heard, with a wi&s;e and di&s;|cr&eacute;ete application of each thing taught, vnto our &s;elues: con&s;idering that all doctrines doo not equally and in lyke &s;ort belong vnto all. Vnto meditation, adde repetition, and conference with others, &s;uch e&s;pecially as belong vnto vs.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I de&s;ire to heare you of the la&s;t point, which is practize.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Practize: Luk. 11. 28.</NOTE></P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You know who it is that &s;aith, <HI>Ble&s;&s;ed are they that heare the word of God, &amp; keepe it.</HI> Add vnto<NOTE PLACE="marg">Iac. 1. 22.</NOTE> this, the exhortation of S. <HI>Iames, Be yee not hearers of the word onelie, deceiuing your &s;elues, but be yee al&s;o dooers of the &s;ame:</HI> pronouncing after, tho&s;e onely to be ble&s;&s;ed, which are not forgetfull hearers, but dooers of the work. So that it is plaine, that the end of hearing, is not onely to know the will of God, but al&s;o to obey &amp; performe it. For the which cau&s;e, the word is called, a light for our paths and a lanthorne for our &s;teps, that we<NOTE PLACE="marg">P&s;al. 119. 105.</NOTE> may walke and liue by it.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You haue &s;atisfied me fully for the hearing of the word, I pray you giue me leaue to aske you a fewe things, concerning tho&s;e that preach.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="44" REF="20">
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is better to learne and practi&s;e our own du|ties, than curiou&s;ly to examine, as many do, the callings and duties of others. And I wi&s;h &s;ome were more oc|cupied in excu&s;ing the Mini&s;ters of God, than in accu|&s;ing them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You would not haue them nori&s;hed or con|firmed in anie euill.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>God forbid, &s;&eacute;eing they &s;hould be lights and exemplars vnto the people. But I am of minde, that this reprehen&s;ion belongeth not vnto all: then I am a&s;|&s;ured that the mo&s;t do offend grieuou&s;ly in the manner &amp; circum&s;tances of reprehending. For they reprehend whome they ought not, for what they ought not, and wherein they haue no &s;kill: al&s;o vn&s;ea&s;onably for time, place, companie and other circum&s;tances: la&s;tly, with|out all reuerence of their per&s;ons and callings, and for them&s;elues mo&s;t vncharitably, and farre from the rule of Chri&s;tianitie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I cannot denie that which I haue heard often with mine eares, and to my great griefe: it is the want of wi&s;edome and loue that cau&s;eth this ra&s;hne&s;&s;e, my que&s;tions are of another kinde. Some there be that re|quire in their preachers, things that either they haue not, or &s;hew not them&s;elues to haue: as great learning both in holie and prophane knowledges, exqui&s;ite or|der and methode in teaching, and a tongue filed and fi|ned with a daintie kinde of vtterance.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>If your &s;cruple be onely of the&s;e, I can in few words giue you mine opinion, referring you for further re&s;olution vnto others. And for learning, I think it ne|ce&s;&s;arie<NOTE PLACE="marg">Learning.</NOTE> in him that &s;hould teach others. But when I con&s;ider what both the Mini&s;ter &s;hould teache, and the people learne, I define his learning &s;omewhat other|wi&s;e than manie doo. <HI>Appollo</HI> was counted a learned<NOTE PLACE="marg">Act. 18. 24.</NOTE> man, becau&s;e hee was mightie in the Scriptures and word of God. <HI>Paule</HI> confe&s;&s;ing hee was rude in &s;peach,
<PB N="45" REF="20"> yet challenged vnto him&s;elfe not to bee rude in know|ledge.<NOTE PLACE="marg">2. Cor. 11. 6.</NOTE> What knowledge he ment, it appeareth vnto the <HI>Ephe&s;.</HI> where he profe&s;&s;eth his knowledge in the mi&s;te|rie<NOTE PLACE="marg">Ephe&s;. 1. 9, 3, 4 2. Tim. 3. 15, 17.</NOTE> of Chri&s;t. Vnto <HI>Timot,</HI> he &s;aith, that being brought vp from his youth in the knowledge of the &s;criptures, they were able to make him wi&s;e vnto &s;aluation, affir|ming that the &s;ame were able to make the man of God perfect vnto euery good worke.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What thinke you of other learnings?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>That they are more vnto ornament than of nece&s;&s;itie. Not that I would denie any good know|ledge vnto the Mini&s;ter of Chri&s;t, but that all may vn|der&s;tand that the fir&s;t is onely nece&s;&s;arie, alone giueth authoritie and credite vnto him that &s;peaketh in Gods Church: and alone can giue re&s;t, peace, contentment and re&s;olution vnto tho&s;e that heare, for the con&s;cience of man is of that nature, that it dooth not nor cannot finde any ground or foundation to &s;tay and build it &s;elfe vppon, but onely the will of GOD reuealed in his word.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>May he not alledge in his Sermon Councels,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Poets and Philo&s;ophe<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="2 letters">.</NOTE> Fathers, Philo&s;ophers, Poets?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>For the two la&s;t I wi&s;h them bani&s;hed out of the Church. And I am per&s;waded that the trueth of doctrine was not anie waie more annoyed than by Phi|lo&s;ophie. So that the Apo&s;tle may &s;&eacute;eme not in vaine to giue that <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 word"> vnto the Church to take h&eacute;ede of Phi|lo&s;ophie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What of the other two?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The Doctor may v&s;e them (I thinke) as al|&s;o<NOTE PLACE="marg">Councells and Fathers.</NOTE> Hi&s;tories, but &s;oberlie and in their place&punc; not laying more credite vpon them, than they m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> able to &s;u&s;taine. As for the Pa&s;tor, though I mi&s;like it not if he bee rea<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> in them: yet in his place, being the mouth of God, I &s;&eacute;e not how they may <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 word"> with the integritie of his of|fice. And I &s;ee they are v&s;ed more vnto o&s;tentation
<PB N="46" REF="21"> of reading and memorie: more to the &s;ati&s;fying of the curio&s;itie of &s;ome hearers, than to anie &s;ound fruite of tho&s;e that de&s;ire to be edified.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I had forgotten the v&s;e of tongues. I pray you<NOTE PLACE="marg">Tongues.</NOTE> &s;ay al&s;o of them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>They are great means for knowledge in tho&s;e y^t haue the~, &amp; I could admoni&s;h all that mind the Mini&s;te|rie, to furni&s;h them&s;elues with &s;o nece&s;&s;arie helpes. But to intermingle them in the preaching of the word, it is in mine opinion full of inconuenience; and I &s;ee that the heathen Orators were more wi&s;e in this part, than &s;ome Chri&s;tian Preachers.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will hold you no longer in this. The next is method and order.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Method.</NOTE></P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>If you meane of doctrine, the rule and practi&s;e of the Apo&s;tle is manife&s;t: fir&s;t milke, and then &s;trong meate: and in the&s;e, that as any principle or article of religion giueth light vnto others, &s;o it bee taught in the fir&s;t place and before others. But if you meane order of &s;peach, and the menaging of words and matter in euerie &s;ermon, then be&s;ides the former rules, I think that me|thod to bee be&s;t which is fitte&s;t for the matter in hand, and apte&s;t both for conceipt and memorie a&s;well of the Preacher as of the people. And as I take it&punc; there is a greate difference betwixt a con&s;tant and perpetuall Mi|ni&s;tery, and that which is extraordinarie&punc; and vncertaine; al&s;o betw&eacute;ene the continuall pur&s;ute of an whole booke of holy Scripture, and the choi&s;e of &s;ome one text by oc|ca&s;ion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Shewe me I pray you that difference.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>He that preacheth but once and that by occa|&s;ion, as at Court, Paules&punc; Cro&s;&s;e, the Spittle or <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 word"> where, propounding vnto him &s;elfe &s;ome few words or ver&s;es of the text, gathereth from thence three or foure points or grounds of doctrine, which he meaneth for the time to &s;tand vpon: pa&s;&s;ing ouer&punc; what&s;oeuer is els in
<PB N="47" REF="21"> the text; and &s;o many times of a great number of excel|lent things toucheth no more than liketh him&s;elfe; and to &s;ay the trueth expoundeth not the whole text, but v|&s;eth the &s;ame as a Theame, or ground of tho&s;e points, which hee intendeth to handle for that time. Wherein how ea&s;ie a thing it is to v&s;e an exact kinde of diuiding, all may ea&s;elie vnder&s;tand. But he that beginneth &s;ome booke of holie Scripture, and continueth to expounde the &s;ame; after a generall diui&s;ion of the whole, cannot alwaies exactly diuide euerie parcell of text, which will fall out to be the argument of his Sermon.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What mu&s;t he then doo?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will tell you &s;o farre as I haue b&eacute;en for my &s;mall learning able to iudge by reading and hearing of the mo&s;t faithfull and &s;incere Preachers of our time. Af|ter a generall diui&s;ion of the whole booke, following the &s;euerall partes of the &s;ame, to make the text it &s;elfe the guide and direction of all his doctrine; &s;o deriuing the &s;ame from thence, as it may appeare rather naturally to grow from the place which he handleth, than by any oc|ca&s;ion drawne thereunto.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>This &s;eemeth not artificiall and methodicall enough vnto many.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>They are both ignorant and iniurious, that thinke the perpetuall expounding of the word, ought to bee conformed vnto the &s;peach of an Orator in Court, Senate, or a&s;&s;emblie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But they require this helpe as they &s;ay, fir&s;t for their conceipt, and then for their memorie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Both the&s;e in mine opinion and as I haue found by mine owne experience; are better holpen by fol|lowing the tennor of the text, than by any method els what&s;oeuer, for if I heare with any attention, hauing fir&s;t conceaued the words of the text, I &s;hall better &s;ee and vnder&s;tand both the ground and &s;ub&s;tance of his &s;peach, and better helpe mine owne memorie to all pur|po&s;es.
<PB N="48" REF="22"> Why &s;o many accu&s;e this kinde, it groweth from their owne negligence; who di&s;daming to v&s;e their bookes or memories for the text propounded, doo thereby greatly di&s;aduantage them&s;elues, and iniu&s;tly charge the Preacher with that fault which is their owne.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Would you haue all to v&s;e their bookes?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>As many as can read: the re&s;t that cannot reade, mu&s;t more deeply imprint into their memories the words of Scripture at that time read by the Prea|cher.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I am my &s;elfe of your minde, and haue found it to bee true, that when I haue diligentlie marked the text, and the pa&s;&s;age and the foote&s;teps of the Mini|&s;ter of GOD, I haue beene afterwards able, by view of the place, to recouer either all or the greate&s;t parte of that which hath beene &s;aid in the &s;ame order and manner it was propounded. But what an iniurie and pride is this, that whome they acknowledge to bee furni&s;hed with nece&s;&s;arie graces vnto the di&s;pen|&s;ation of the Go&s;pell, to him they &s;houlde pre&s;cribe the menaging and carriage of his &s;peach for the edify|ing of his auditorie?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The iniurie indeede is great, the onelie hope is that GOD in his good time will giue humi|litie and wi&s;dome to di&s;cerne this follie. Like vnto this is the accu&s;ation of negligence, in manie of the &s;er|uants<NOTE PLACE="marg">Diligence.</NOTE> of GOD. I am no patron of idlenes e&s;pecial|lie in &s;o &s;erious and heauenly a worke, as is the Preach|ing of the word. Yet I &s;ee that the negligence, and pre|iudice of the hearer is oftentimes imputed vnto him that &s;peaketh, which appeareth in this that whome one com|mendeth from the fruite of his owne attention, him ano|ther di&s;commendeth at the &s;ame time, as receauing no fruite. Not that the Mini&s;terie was not one vnto both, but for the diuer&s;itie of their behauiour and affection in hearing.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="49" REF="22">
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What diligence thinke you nece&s;&s;arie in the Mini&s;ter for preaching.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will not take vppon mee to pre&s;cribe vnto tho&s;e, who for their &s;kill and con&s;cience are able and rea|dy to lay vpon them&s;elues their owne burden. Yet &s;ee|ing you require my opinion in priuate, I will not refu&s;e euen here to &s;ay vnto you what I thinke.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You &s;ee my boldnes, but I willinglie binde my &s;elfe vnto all thankefullne&s;&s;e for this li|bertie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I mu&s;t al&s;o pray you to beare with my freedome of &s;peache in the&s;e cau&s;es. Fir&s;t I am not of their minde that thinke no diligence and preparati|on enough, and therefore holde it &s;ufficient, if the Mini|&s;ter preach once in a moueth, fortnight, or at the mo&s;t in a w&eacute;eke: when as the labours of men mu&s;t be mea&s;ured by the nece&s;&s;itie of their dutie, and not the duetie of their calling, tempred to a pre&s;umed nece&s;&s;itie of their dili|gence.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I agree vnto this, and the contrarie &s;auou|reth rather of curio&s;itie, and a vaine de&s;ire to haue their eares tickeled with a delicate and picked &s;peache, than of a minde de&s;irous of the pure and<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Pet. 2. 2.</NOTE> &s;yncere milke of the Woord, whereby they maye growe vp.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Secondly, I would haue that well con&s;idered which our Sauiour Chri&s;t &s;aieth, <HI>Matth. 13.</HI> Euerie &s;cribe that is taught vnto the kingdome of heauen, is<NOTE PLACE="marg">Math. 13. 52.</NOTE> like vnto an hou&s;holder who bringeth foorth of his trea|&s;urie both new and old &s;tore.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What would you build vpon this place.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>That the Mini&s;ter of Chri&s;t, who is heere meant by a learned Scribe, being by former &s;tudies furni&s;hed vnto the woorke of his calling, is not as one that hath nothing but from hande to mouth, and is
<PB N="50" REF="23"> to &s;&eacute;eke of tho&s;e things which pre&s;ent occa&s;ion dooth re|quire: but as one that is rich in proui&s;ion and &s;tored of all nece&s;&s;aries before hand, and can furni&s;h him&s;elfe rea|dily with &s;ound, whol&s;ome, and profitable things; re|quiring onely &s;o much labor and time as may be nece&s;|&s;arie for his producting, ordering and applying of them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What is then the diligence you doo here re|quire of the &s;eruant of God?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>That he diligently weigh and examine the place hee is to handle, for the true and naturall &s;en&s;e thereof: and that hauing laid this ground, hee faithfully collect &s;uch doctrines, exhortations, and comforts as the place it &s;elf dooth properly and plainely afford. Whereunto, I would haue him not to re&s;t vppon his owne iudgement, but to examine the iudgements of others though not al, which is impo&s;&s;ible, yet &s;uch as haue delt mo&s;t faithful|ly and &s;incerely in expounding of the word. Then, that he carefully con&s;ider how the &s;ame may be propounded with mo&s;t fruit vnto his auditorie, who&s;e nature, growth in knowledge, and other circum&s;tances mu&s;t not be neg|lected. Al&s;o that he fir&s;t make v&s;e of that he teacheth, vn|to him&s;elfe, applying the &s;ame vnto the v&s;e of his owne con&s;cience and practize, that hee may after with greater power of the &s;pirite and affection of mind commend the &s;ame vnto his auditorie, for he can hardly moue another that is not fir&s;t mooued him&s;elfe. La&s;tly that hee pray with all in&s;tancie vnto the Lord to giue vnto him in this worke of the Mini&s;terie both wi&s;dome and power of vt|terance to &s;peake the word as it ought to be &s;poken; and to ble&s;&s;e the hearers with humilitie, reuerence, care of profiting, attention, and what&s;oeuer els is nece&s;&s;arie for their fruitefull and profitable hearing.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Mee thinketh this diligence &s;hould &s;uffice, but I feare it is wanting in manie: yet where it is, I &s;ee not what more can bee required. I haue onelie
<PB N="51" REF="23"> one thing more to demand of you for this matter: what manner of Eloquence you thinke fit for the<NOTE PLACE="marg">Eloquence.</NOTE> di&s;pen&s;ers of Gods my&s;teries.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Not that of the heathen Orators and Philo&s;o|phers, con&s;i&s;ting in pompe of words, and frame of &s;en|tences, but that which S. <HI>Paule</HI> meaneth, when &s;pea|king of his owne manner &amp; forme of vtterance, he &s;aith: Wee haue not receiued the &s;pirit of the world, but the<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Cor. 2. 12, 13.</NOTE> &s;pirit which is from GOD, that wee might knowe the things which God hath gratiou&s;lie be&s;towed vpon vs: which al&s;o we &s;peak not with &s;peach taught by humane wi&s;edome, but taught by the holie Gho&s;t, ioyning &s;piri|tuall things with tho&s;e that are &s;pirituall.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What is the &s;en&s;e of the&s;e words? for I a&s;|&s;ure you they are beyond my reach. The more hath been my negligence and forgetfulnes of that I haue heard.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Fir&s;t, that the knowledge of heauenly things, euen in tho&s;e that teach them, is not from the &s;pirit of the world, but from the &s;pirit of God. Secondly, that the &s;ame are vttered not with humane eloquence lear|ned in &s;chooles of Oratorie, but with heaue~ly eloquence, &s;uch as the holie Gho&s;t teacheth. Thirdly, that the &s;pi|rituall things of God neede not the helpe of mans wi&s;e|dome, nor may without di&s;parageme~t, be matched with the &s;ame, but require an vtterance like vnto them&s;elues which is &s;pirituall, and not carnall. This the Apo&s;tle calleth the &s;implicitie and &s;inceritie of God, oppo&s;ed vn|to<NOTE PLACE="marg">2. Cor. 1. 12.</NOTE> carnall wi&s;edome, &amp; after, a declaration of the truth, &s;uch as whereby the Mini&s;ter of Chri&s;t is commended<NOTE PLACE="marg">2. Cor. 4. 2.</NOTE> vnto the con&s;cience of all men in the &s;ight of God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I doo not yet &s;ufficientlie vnder&s;tand the meaning of the Apo&s;tle.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Neither can I better expre&s;&s;e it vnto you, than in his owne words. The only helpes which I can fur|ther giue you in this poynt, are the&s;e two. Fir&s;t, that
<PB N="52" REF="24"> you diligentlie ob&s;erue the vtterance and eloquence of the Prophets and Apo&s;tles in their writings, whom no doubt, as the holie Gho&s;t furni&s;hed with the matter and argument they handle, &s;o hee gaue them that forme and maner of deliuerance, which was mo&s;t agreeable there|vnto. And I greatlie meruaile that &s;o many hauing found out the diuers caracters of humane Orators, no man hath throughly laboured to finde out the caracter and kinde of vtterance, v&s;ed by the holie Gho&s;t.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What is your &s;econd helpe?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The examples of the mo&s;t learned, faithfull, and fruitfull &s;eruants of Chri&s;t in the Mini&s;terie of the Go&s;pell, as <HI>Caluin, Beza,</HI> &amp;c. of the French: of our own I will name onelie Ma&s;ter <HI>Dearing</HI> among&s;t many, who&s;e grace in &s;peach of heauenly things doth partlie appeare in his &s;ermons that are extant; but was farr o|ther in the eares of tho&s;e that heard him. And thus much of this.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>It &s;hall &s;uffice: now I will put you in mind of your promi&s;e concerning the vnlearned and vn|preaching<NOTE PLACE="marg">Of the vnlear|ned Mini&s;tery.</NOTE> Mini&s;terie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>You remember it in good time. I haue &s;aid before that my meaning is nothing le&s;&s;e than to become a patron for that <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">rue. Of whome I &s;ay fir&s;t that the Church and gouernours thereof &s;hould haue taken dili|gent care that none &s;uch might haue entered into the Lords harue&s;t. The next remedie were, if it might bee obtained, that from henceforth none might enter, and the&s;e that are, might with all po&s;&s;ible &s;peede bee throwne out, and able and &s;ufficient men placed in their roumes.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But heere an impo&s;sibilitie is obiected, which cannot be auoyded.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I graunt, if it were to be done in one moment. But that which cannot bee done vppon the &s;odaine, it
<PB N="53" REF="24"> may bee gayned in time. And I am per&s;waded, that if diligent care had been taken from the beginning of the Go&s;pell, it might haue beene effected long before this time. But it &s;eemeth they haue little meaning to per|fect the worke, that will not &s;o much as begin the &s;ame: yea them&s;elues daylie obiect newe difficulties and hinderaunces there&punc; vnto.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I &s;ee then your de&s;ire is, that euerie Congrega|tion might haue an able and &s;ufficient Pa&s;tor.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is &s;o: and I am per&s;waded, that the want thereof, is and will be the cau&s;e of all impietie and vn|righteou&s;nes in the land. Be&s;ides, it holdeth the aduer|&s;arie &s;till in hope by the ignorance of the people, and the want of meanes vnto true knowledge, who otherwi&s;e &s;hould be vtterly without all hope: and leaueth him an open and ea&s;ie waie vnto all abu&s;e, not of the multitude onely, but al&s;o of manie of the better &s;ort: while&s;t they are not grounded in the truth, nor pre&s;erued and kept in the &s;ame, as they &s;hould.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But is there anie remedie for &s;o great a mi&s;|chiefe?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I &s;&eacute;e nor know none in &s;o great &s;ecuritie of al &s;tates, in the cau&s;es of religion: vnle&s;&s;e it might plea&s;e the Lord pitying the de&s;olation of his Church in this part, to fill the hearts of tho&s;e that are in authoritie with a zeale of his glorie, and loue of his people, ch&eacute;er|fully to take in hand, and earne&s;tly to pro&s;ecute this part of the reformation of his church, which as it is the chie|fe&s;t and greate&s;t, &s;o I wi&s;h it had b&eacute;en fir&s;t and mo&s;t la|boured in: then I would not doubt, but God from all places of the land, would beyond all mans expectation, rai&s;e vp Mini&s;ters vnto his Churches, and that in grea|ter number, than wee can no<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> thinke. And of this I am &s;ure, that the Vniuer&s;ities in &s;hort time would dou|ble and treble their fruite vnto the Mini&s;terie.
<PB N="54" REF="25"> But we will leaue this as that which wee may mourne, but which wee can not amend, otherwi&s;e than by our praiers vnto God, and &s;uch &s;mall helpe as is in our owne hands.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I doo not &s;ee what helpe it is that is in our po|wer.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Yes there is &s;ome thing left vnto vs. Fir&s;t to complaine of the iniurie done vnto vs by an vnpreaching Mini&s;terie, hoping that the godly and Chri&s;tian Magi|&s;trate will as well aide the people in the complaint of their wrong, as the Mini&s;ter in the complaint of iniurie done vnto him, which we &s;ee to be ordinarie, and that all Courts both ciuile &amp; eccle&s;ia&s;ticall are full of the&s;e cau|&s;es. And &s;o much the more as it is greater rea&s;on hee &s;hould be heard, that complaineth of hurt done vnto his &s;oule, than he that complaineth onely of iniurie done vn|to his bodie, or to his goods. Then mee thinketh if the Patrones and Bi&s;hops were earne&s;tly and in good &s;ort dealt withall, there were hope they would &s;uffer them|&s;elues to be intreated in &s;o lamentable a cau&s;e as this, &s;o nearly concerning the &s;aluation of the people, the care whereof they take vpon them. If this &s;hould faile, the mo&s;t Honorable Table of the Coun&s;el were in all hum|ble &s;ubmi&s;&s;ion to bee &s;ued vnto, that as in manie cau&s;es they protect the bodies and goods of the &s;ubiects; &s;o they would for their wi&s;edome and pietie imbrace this cau&s;e of our &s;oules. The la&s;t hope from men, is by &s;upplica|tion to her Maie&s;tie, that as &s;he hath alwaies &s;hewed a mo&s;t tender loue, and motherlie affection, vnto the life &amp; welfare of her &s;ubiects: &s;o it would plea&s;e her Highne&s;&s;e graciou&s;lie to prouide, that it might bee well with their &s;oules.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I haue not heard that the&s;e meanes haue been v&s;ed by anie, in order and &s;ort as you haue &s;poken. It may be, and the hope is great, that this cour&s;e beeing wi&s;ely &amp; dutifully menaged, would receiue a ble&s;sing
<PB N="55" REF="25"> from God. But after, or without the&s;e, is there any helpe in our owne hands?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Fir&s;t this, that being plagued with an euill Mini&s;ter, wee prouide that a better may &s;ucceede him, though it be with &s;ome charge: for if we purcha&s;e lands, and gather goods for our po&s;teritie, much more ought wee to prouide for them that ordinance of God, where|vpon dependeth their &s;aluation.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But what is this for the pre&s;ent, and vnto tho&s;e that now want the meanes?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Here I haue no better coun&s;ell than that which I &s;ee God hath put into the hearts of many people in the land; That leauing the tythes, and other emoluments vnto tho&s;e vppon whom the lawe doth ca&s;t them, men doo otherwi&s;e prouide for them&s;elues at their further charge.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>The mo&s;t doo ea&s;elie, as they thinke, excu&s;e them&s;elues herein in laying the fault vpon the~ that receiue tho&s;e duties, by which they &s;ay, they &s;hould be prouided of foode for their &s;oules.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>No doubt their fault is great, which reaping their corporall things, do not &s;ow<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> or cau&s;e to bee &s;owne vnto them &s;pirituall things, and they &s;hall neuer be able to an&s;were it before the great &s;heapheard of the &s;heepe, the Lord Ie&s;us at his comming. Yet this excu&s;eth not them that &s;uffer their owne want, when it may by any meanes bee &s;upplied. And they are forciblie conuicted from their care of the bodie: for if any man by violence or fraud &s;hal depriue them of one part of their &s;ub&s;tance, they will by the very &s;en&s;e and light of nature helpe them&s;elues and &s;u&s;taine their nece&s;&s;itie with the re&s;t. How is it therefore that being depriued of the meanes of their &s;aluation, by diuerting of their tythes, they doo not with &s;ome part of the nine which remain vnto them, helpe them&s;elues to &s;o nece&s;&s;arie a proui&s;ion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I confe&s;&s;e it &s;hould bee &s;o, and that it were
<PB N="56" REF="26"> much better to prouide for the &s;oule with &s;ome wa~t of the bodie, than to prouide for the bodie with the want of the &s;oule. But there are very fewe that vn|der&s;tand this, and are affected with it.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The greater is the ignorance, and thereby the condemnation of the world, e&s;peciallie after &s;o long <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ight and libertie of the Go&s;pell among&s;t vs. Yet my hope is that that which is alreadie &s;eene and remedied of many, will &s;hortly be &s;eene and remedied of moe.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>God grant it. Yet during the want of a &s;uf|ficient mini&s;terie at home, you thinke we may &s;eeke the word abroad.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Not &s;o onely; but that we ought to doo it, vn|le&s;&s;e we &s;hould thinke it le&s;&s;e danger, to want the foode of our &s;oules, than the foode of our bodies. Yet I am of minde there is heere &s;ome caution and godlie policie to be v&s;ed.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What is that?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Fir&s;t, not to contemne publique praier, the word read, Sacraments admini&s;tred, and other exer|ci&s;es of religion&punc; which I take to bee parts of the ordi|nance &amp; wor&s;hip of God, as well as preaching: though I confe&s;&s;e it doth farre excell all the re&s;t in dignitie and in fruitfulnes.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I like this well. For I &s;ee it is that wherein many doo offend, and &s;o, as they will not enter the Church &s;o long as any part of the Leiturgie is in hand.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Secondlie, I would not haue the in&s;ufficient Mini&s;ters &s;o rudely and &s;o vncharitablie prouoked as they are of many, but more louinglie and more merci|fullie dealt withall: &s;o would they bee more peaceable and more tractable, than now many are; and more wil|linglie ioyne in the admitting and allowance of a better Mini&s;terie than their owne.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is as you &s;ay. And I know my &s;elfe manie places, where the wi&s;edome of the Preacher dooth
<PB N="57" REF="26"> ea&s;ely intertaine not onely peace but al&s;o loue, reuerence and &s;eruice at the hand of the Mini&s;ter: where in o|ther places, there is nothing but a continuall iarre be|tweene them; whil&s;t the one continually prouoketh the other: whereof al&s;o it commeth more often to pa&s;&s;e, that the vn&s;ufficient Mini&s;ter crowdeth out the lear|ned preacher, than is di&s;placed of him.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>Be&s;ides if they were more louingly delt with al, and their Mini&s;tery, in that they can doo, le&s;&s;e contem|ned, they would more willingly beare our trauaile a|broade for that they cannot giue vs at home, and as I haue knowne in many places, both exhort and company their people in &s;o dooing.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I al&s;o haue heard, and knowne the like.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Thirdly, in &s;&eacute;eking abroad I could like it wel, to ioyne our &s;elues with the next a&s;&s;emblie, where the word is purely and con&s;tantly preached, a&s;well for the honour of the word it &s;elfe, and to auoide the note of par|tialitie; as al&s;o for the greater fruite of our owne exam|ple, which vndoubtedly is there where wee are be&s;t knowne, and mo&s;t accquainted.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But is it not lawful here to make thoice of the be&s;t?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Yes, if we be voide of ambition and partialitie, &amp; define the be&s;t, rather by the honour of the word &amp; pro|fit of our brethre~, than by our own fanta&s;ie. In the fourth place I require con&s;tancie without wearines and new|fanglednes, for I &s;&eacute;e that vnto many, the newe&s;t is al|waies the be&s;t, and that their attendance is changeable and flitting, according to the noueltie of their teachers.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>This in deede is the fault of many.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Others in their conceipts pre&s;cribe vnto their preachers, and if they &s;ay not in all things what and how they like, they e&s;t&eacute;eme them not faithfull, nor worthie to bee heard. And I haue knowne this folly in &s;ome, that they haue liked nothing better then to heare of the
<PB N="58" REF="27"> gouernement of the Church and wants in the &s;ame, be|ing them&s;elues ignorant and rude in the very grounds and principles of religion. Others ouer ea&s;ely conceaue offence again&s;t their Preachers, and thereby di&s;aduan|tage them&s;elues of the fruite of their Mini&s;terie, char|ging their teachers with want of zeale, learning, and di|ligence; when the change is onely in the offence and alie|nation of their owne mind, and in the preiudice of their owne affections: &s;ome in this folly proc&eacute;ede &s;o farre, that they imagine in their Mini&s;ters the lo&s;&s;e of their former loue and zeale of the trueth, a diminution and extingui&s;h|ing of their gifts: as if the man that is weakened in his &s;ight &s;houlde complaine that the Sunne had lo&s;t his brightnes: finally when for their owne di&s;temper they profit le&s;&s;e, they imagine their Pa&s;tor to bee le&s;&s;e profi|table.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Enough of the&s;e, wee will leaue them vnto the Lord. Let vs now returne, if it plea&s;e you, vnto the vnpreaching Mini&s;terie again&s;t whome there are verie many thinges obiected, and more of late than heretofore.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>There is no doubt but their in&s;ufficiencie, and want of con&s;cience, iu&s;tly cau&s;eth many complaints of the people again&s;t them. And I could wi&s;h that their owne remor&s;e might once &s;o forcibly rebuke them, as they would both bee a&s;hamed and afraide of their offence again&s;t GOD, and again&s;t his Churche. Yet I thinke there are &s;ome, that in the heat of their zeale, and for want of knowledge, doo proc&eacute;ed too farre in this argument. And whiles they looke vppon the &s;innes of men, with an ouer &s;treight eye, doo vnwares them&s;elues offend again&s;t God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I pray you giue mee leaue in this place, to ob|iect vnto you as one of tho&s;e of whome you &s;peake, for I haue beene &s;omewhat acquainted with their argu|ments.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="59" REF="27">
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I am content: onely I pray you to be &s;hort in obiecting, that I may be &s;hort in an&s;wering. For I take it that by this, it groweth to ward &s;upper time.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will be &s;o, and I like it well: for it is the be&s;t and neere&s;t waie to &s;atisfaction. Fir&s;t therefore. I will begin with tho&s;e, that thinke they maie not communi|cate the holie things of GOD, with anie man that is vnholie, whether it bee the Mini&s;ter, or one of the people.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is no doubt a great indignitie, that pearles &s;hould be ca&s;t before &s;wine, much more to he handled &amp; admini&s;tred of them. Yet we mu&s;t beware we count not them &s;wine, whom for anie cau&s;e in loue and charitie we &s;hould e&s;t&eacute;eme to be &s;h&eacute;epe. And I feare manie are too bold here to pronounce the &s;entence that belongeth not vnto them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I would gladlie therefore vnder&s;tand of you, whom wee maie account &s;wine, and whome &s;heepe?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>If I be not deceaued, I haue heard that the name of &s;wine belongeth onely vnto tho&s;e that are with|out, whether not yet come vnto the Church, or reuol|ted and fallen away from the &s;ame, with ob&s;tinate and re&s;olute contempt again&s;t GOD and agayn&s;t his truth.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What thinke you then of the re&s;t?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Of tho&s;e which are within, iudgement &s;aieth Saint <HI>Paule</HI> belongeth vnto the Church, not vnto pri|uate men.<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Cor. 26<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"></NOTE></P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Your meaning is, we can not nor may not de|nie vnto them the fellow&s;hip of the Church, nor the communion of holie things: but are we not bound our &s;elues to ab&s;taine from communicating with them?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Yes, if you meane communicating with the~ in anie thing that is euill. But if you meane we may not communicate with them the holie things of God, as the
<PB N="60" REF="28"> Word, Praier and Sacraments, I am not of that minde.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>The Apo&s;tle &s;aieth; <HI>If anie that is called a brother, be<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> a fornicator, couetous, and idolater, &amp;c. with</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Cor. 5. 11.</NOTE> <HI>&s;uch an one you &s;hall not</HI> &s;o much as <HI>eate.</HI></P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>He meaneth it of ciuile familiaritie, the liber|tie or re&s;traint whereof is in our owne power. But where we are bound by the commandement of God, and by the nece&s;&s;itie of our owne &s;aluation, the ca&s;e is other|wi&s;e. I may forbeare familiaritie with me~ for the Lords cau&s;e, but I may not on the other &s;ide forbeare familia|ritie with God, becau&s;e of men.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>This is &s;omewhat ob&s;cure.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will &s;peake it yet more plainly. The com|mandement of GOD, concerning his wor&s;hip, is ab&s;o|lute, and &s;uffereth no exception for anie re&s;pect of man; &s;o is the nece&s;&s;itie of our v&s;ing the Lords ordinances for our edifying vnto &s;aluation: &amp; therefore we are not, nor cannot be di&s;pen&s;ed withall for the neglect of our duetie, by any colour or pretence from other, no more than one &s;eruant knowing his ma&s;ters will, can bee excu&s;ed by the negligence or euill demeanour of his fellow &s;eruant. Or if you vnder&s;tand the place either expre&s;&s;ely or by compari&s;on of the Lords &s;upper, then mu&s;t it n&eacute;edes re|ceiue this &s;en&s;e, that the Apo&s;tle would haue them exclu|ded which doo &s;o offend, and not vs, who in this part haue not offended: for what puni&s;hment were this vn|to a wicked man, that another for his &s;ake &s;hould be bar|red from the Table of the Lord. And there the Apo&s;tle manife&s;tly &s;peaketh of the &s;eparation of the wicked fro~ the holy things of God for their vncleannes, not of the faithful their withdrawing of them&s;elues for the vngod|ly their &s;akes. Now to remooue a wicked man from the table of the Lord, is not in the power of any priuate man but of the whole Church, whom the Apo&s;tle there di|recteth to that dutie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="81" REF="28">
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But do not wicked men prophane the holie<NOTE PLACE="marg">Hagg. 2. 13.</NOTE> things which they touch?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>No doubt, and that vnto their iu&s;t and great damnation, as the Apo&s;tle faith. But yet only vnto<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Cor. 11. 29.</NOTE> them&s;elues: for they are neuerthele&s;&s;e holie both in the ordinance of God, and vnto them that are holie, that is vnto all that receiue them worthelie. And therefore it is, that the Apo&s;tle in the &s;ame place, &s;peaking vnto tho&s;e that come vnto the Lords table, warneth euerie man to examine him&s;elfe; but &s;peaketh nothing of the exami|ning of others.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But are we not guiltie of their vncleannes by communicating with them?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Not at all, for wee communicate not with them in an action of &s;inne, but in an action of great holy|nes and religion, wherein if they offend by their hipo|cri&s;ie or other vnworthines, it is their <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 word"> danger and reacheth not vnto vs, who by the grace of God doo that well, which they doo euill.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>It were better perhappes to forbeare, lea&s;t wee might &s;eeme to confirme them in their ini|quitie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>When the Lorde calleth vs to doo him ho|nour, &s;hould wee not come becau&s;e others refu&s;e? And when hee offereth mercie in his holie Ordinaunces, &s;hall wee not receyue it, becau&s;e that others doo re|iect it?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I agree vnto this, that no m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ns ab&s;ence &s;hould cau&s;e me to forbeare.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The other&punc; al&s;o ab&s;ent them&s;elues no le&s;&s;e than the&s;e, though in another manner. For drawing neare vnto the Lorde with their mouthes, they are<NOTE PLACE="marg">E&s;a. 29. 13.</NOTE> farre from him in their hearts. So that neither their bodely nor &s;pirituall ab&s;ence ought to with-holde me<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> from &s;eruing the Lorde, or from &s;eeking the fruite of mine owne edifying. Yea there is more rea&s;on, that
<PB N="62" REF="29"> for Gods cau&s;e, I &s;hould ioyne my &s;elfe heere with men, than for mans cau&s;e to &s;eperate my &s;elfe from God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>My meaning is not to renounce the Table of the Lord for their &s;akes, but to communicate the &s;ame without them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>How may that be, when it &s;eldome happeneth that euen of a &s;mall number all &s;hould be worthie recei|uers? Remember you not that in the fir&s;t Supper,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Ioh. 13. 24. 24, 26.</NOTE> there were but twelue, and one of them was a diuell?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I haue heard &s;ome learned men &s;ay, that <HI>Judas</HI> receaued not the Sacrament with the re&s;t.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The compari&s;on of the Euangeli&s;ts will ea|&s;ely remooue that &s;cruple.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But his wickednes was not yet knowne vnto the other Apo&s;tles.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>That al&s;o may be doubted of, but &s;ay that his &s;inne was hetherto &s;ecret. Yet becau&s;e it was in him, it did nothing the le&s;&s;e pollute the holy My&s;terie, becau&s;e it was vnknowne vnto men, &s;o that if we hold this opi|nion of the prophanation of the Sacraments as wel vn|to others as to them&s;elues: the onely feare and &s;u&s;pition of any mans vncleanes, &s;houlde driue vs away from all communion with them, lea&s;t their contagion might de|file vs.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You thinke then that though the Mini&s;ter him&s;elfe, or any of the communicants bee faultie, that wee may not for them forbeare the my&s;teries of God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I thinke &s;o, and further: not to auoyd the time and place whereunto wee are bound, lea&s;t wee confirme our &s;elues and others in this error; that either the &s;anc|timonie, or fruite of the Sacraments vnto Gods chil|dren, dependeth vppon the cleannes or vncleannes of men. But I mu&s;t tell you here another thing, that wee are many times too ca&s;h and peremptorie in iudging of
<PB N="63" REF="29"> our brethren, and rai&s;ing vp offences again&s;t our &s;elues.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What is your meaning in this?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>That in excluding others from the &s;upper of the Lord wee are rather to followe and expect, than to preuent and goe before the iudgement of the Church.</P>
<P>But you &s;ee the loo&s;ene&s;&s;e of the di&s;cipline of our time.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is that, we may lament, but can not amend. Yet whom the Church holdeth in the communion of it &s;elfe, with them wee may not refu&s;e the holie things of the Lord. For if wee may not excommunicate them, much le&s;&s;e may we excommunicate our &s;elues for their &s;akes: which in &s;ome &s;ort we doo, when for anie excep|tion taken again&s;t them, we withdraw our &s;elues from the Table of the Lord. But why doo we not in loue iudge the be&s;t of all that &s;ubmit them&s;elues vnto the v&s;e of the Lords ordinaunces? S&eacute;eing wee knowe not the worke of God in them: and therefore may ea&s;elie com|mit again&s;t them the &s;inne of the Phari&s;ey in the 7. of <HI>Luke,</HI> who thought the poore woman to be vnclean, who was cleaner than him &s;elfe. If they do that for the time, that Chri&s;tians &s;hould doo, we are rather to e&s;t&eacute;eme the~ by the pre&s;ent action, than by anie of our &s;u&s;pition or knowledge of them before: leauing the iudgement of the heart to him, who alone is able to di&s;cerne it.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What if they haue oftentimes before bewraied their hypocri&s;ie?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>We know not in what good hower the Lord will worke the conuer&s;ion of a &s;inner. As often there|fore as he &s;ubmitteth him&s;elfe vnto the outward te&s;ti|monies of repe~tance, we mu&s;t &s;uffer our iudgement ra|ther to be led thereby, than to be carried with the vncha|ritable conceipt of our owne &s;u&s;pition. Remember you not the &s;aying of our Sauiour Chri&s;t, wherein he tea|cheth vs how oftentimes we &s;hould forgiue our brother offending again&s;t vs?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="64" REF="30">
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Very well: That if &s;euen times in one day my brother offend again&s;t me, and doo &s;euen times the &s;ame day returne vnto me, &s;aying I haue &s;inned, I mu&s;t forgiue him.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>If I mu&s;t bee thus charitable in iudgement, and of this readines to forgiue, where I haue intere&s;t in the offence, &s;hall I not much more bee of this equitie where the offence lieth not between my brother and me, but betweene him and God? Or &s;hall wee thinke that God who commandeth vs to be thus mercifull vnto our brethren, is not him&s;elfe much more mercifull? To con|clude<NOTE PLACE="marg">Matth. 5. 23.</NOTE> this poynt. Chri&s;t &s;aid not in <HI>Matth.</HI> Leaue thy gift before the altar if thou &s;ee&s;t there any man that is vnreformed, and &s;ee him fir&s;t reformed: nor if any haue offended again&s;t God or again&s;t thee, &s;&eacute;e him fir&s;t recon|ciled before thou offer thy gift: but if thy brother hath ought again&s;t thee: that is, not if he haue offended, let that hinder thee: but if thy con&s;cience witnes again&s;t thee that thou ha&s;t offended.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I wil weigh your an&s;wers, &amp; replie no further in this que&s;tion. I know your opinion concerning the manners of the Mini&s;ter, and of others that they ought to bee no let vnto me to keepe me from the wor&s;hip of God, and from the meanes of my &s;alua|tion. What thinke you of the vn&s;ufficiencie of the Mini&s;ter?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I wi&s;h this que&s;tion were rather an&s;wered by the Chri&s;tian gouernment of the Church and Com|mon weale, by thru&s;ting them out of the places, they are &s;o vnfit for, than by me either in rebuking or bewayling their in&s;ufficiencie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>That indeed were the be&s;t, if it might be ob|tained: but &s;ince it is not in our power, how ought wee in the meane time to beare our &s;elues towards them, in v&s;ing or refu&s;ing their Mini&s;terie?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Fir&s;t, I &s;ee there are many that greatlie
<PB N="65" REF="30"> deceaue them&s;elues in the opinion of &s;ufficiencie: and they &s;&eacute;eme to a&s;&s;igne vnto the Lorde a certaine mea&s;ure and rate of gifts, vnder the which none may be accoun|ted &s;ufficient, when we knowe that God openeth not his hand alike vnto all.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I hold here the rule of the Apo&s;tle, that the<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Tim. 3. 2. Tit. 2. 7, 15.</NOTE> Mini&s;ter ought to be apt to teach, able to exhort with whol&s;ome doctrine, and to rebuke the gaine&s;aier.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>But all haue not an equall abilitie and mea&s;ure in the&s;e things: and therefore as I could wi&s;h that al the Mini&s;ters of Chri&s;t had the gifts not of men onely, but al&s;o of Angells: yet knowing that GOD giueth vnto e|uery one according to his owne plea&s;ure; I would de|&s;pi&s;e or refu&s;e none which were in any mea&s;ure able to teach true doctrine, confute error, reproue vice, exhort vn|to hone&s;t and godly life, and were faithfull to do that di|ligently, whereunto he is inabled.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Many will mi&s;like your moderation in this part.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I hang not vpon the liking or mi&s;liking of men, my rule is the word of God, and the experience of his gouernement in the Church. Who oftentimes humbleth men here as well as in their worldly e&s;tate, to teach them to looke vnto him, and the ble&s;&s;ing of his hand, and not vnto the mediocritie or excellencie of the meanes he v&s;eth towards them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You &s;pake of this &s;ufficiently before. Yet doo I now &s;omewhat better and more fully vnder&s;tand your meaning: But there are many now a daies, who &s;eeing the vnpreaching Mini&s;terie to be odious and in|famous in the Church, take vpon them to teach before they haue learned, &amp; as our prouerb &s;aith, to flie before they haue wings.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Wee haue &s;poken &s;omewhat of the&s;e before, &amp; in d&eacute;ed there are too many of them in all places, who&s;e boldnes and impudencie is &s;hameful and ridiculous; and
<PB N="66" REF="31"> their offence exceeding great, both again&s;t God, and a|gain&s;t his Church. And for mine owne part I like tho&s;e much better, who knowing their owne imbecilitie doo keepe them&s;elues within their bounds, than tho&s;e which are bold aboue their &s;trength. But I leaue them to tho&s;e that &s;hould reforme them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Wee are come now vnto tho&s;e that being vnable to teach, hold them&s;elues contented with that part of the Mini&s;terie, which they are able to execute, as the Leiturgie of the Church, the reading of the word of God, the admini&s;tration of the Sa|craments, &amp;c. what may we thinke of the&s;e?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The opinions of men are diuers concerning them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I knowe it well, for &s;ome e&s;teeme them no Mini&s;ters at all, and therefore their mini&s;terie to be no mini&s;terie, &amp; there are learned me~ of this mind.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is not learning that teacheth them this, but their owne preiudice and conceipt, which being once embraced and profe&s;&s;ed of them, they afterward &s;eeke by all po&s;&s;ible meanes to maintaine.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But they &s;eeme to haue many and weightie rea&s;ons out of the word, for their opinion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I haue heard and read a number of them: but to tell you what I thinke, who haue no great learning, though I haue laboured to keepe and encrea&s;e that little I had by education in my youth, they neuer conclude the que&s;tion they take in ha~d, or if they do, the premi&s;&s;es will not beare the co~clu&s;ion, that they hang vpon them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>How &s;o?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>They proue what &s;hould be, which no man de|nieth, and confute that &s;hould not bee, which no man af|firmeth. But they touch not the point in que&s;tion of that which is, &amp; what is the nature and valour of it. I thinke your &s;elfe will &s;ay this is no good argument, They &s;hould not haue been made Mini&s;ters, therfore they are
<PB N="67" REF="31"> no Mini&s;ters: con&s;idering that of the Apo&s;tle, &s;ome<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Tim. 4. 24.</NOTE> mens faults goe before them vnto iudgement, and &s;ome mens faults followe after them.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>For the argument I like it not; for &s;o a man might rea&s;on again&s;t the Magi&s;trate, if he bee not &s;uch as he &s;hould, that therefore hee is none at all. But for the place you alledged, I do not &s;ufficiently vnder&s;tand how it may be applied vnto your cau&s;e.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will tell you: the Apo&s;tle there &s;peaketh of the choice of the Mini&s;ter and of his ordination thereun|to. Wherein, becau&s;e men for their ignorance and &s;enitie may offend, he telleth <HI>Timothie</HI> that &s;ome mens faults and vnworthines to that calling are euident before hand, &amp; ought to barre them from the mini&s;tery: but &s;ome e&s;ca|ping y^e pre&s;ent triall, may afterward be found out, which mu&s;t by a newe examination bee remooued againe from the mini&s;tery. Yet hee &s;aieth not that they are in the meane time no Mini&s;ters, or their Mini&s;tery no Mini|&s;tery, but would haue them ca&s;t out, as &s;oone as they are e&s;pied, euen by the &s;ame hand that let them in.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Then you neither allowe their entrance, nor their continuance in the mini&s;terie; but when they are entred, &s;o long as they continue, you hold them mini|&s;ters.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>That I doo. And I neuer yet heard any &s;ound argument again&s;t it.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>They want that which the Apo&s;tle requireth to be in a mini&s;ter.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>I graunt, but if that were enough to proue the nullitie of their calling, then either their &s;taine with any vice prohibited, or their want of any vertue required, &s;hould <HI>ip&s;o facto,</HI> make them no Mini&s;ters.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Not &s;o, but depriuable of their Mini&s;terie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Let that al&s;o bee graunted, for the time. Yet mu&s;t their depriuation be expected, for as they were by publique authoritie admitted vnto the Mini&s;terie, &s;o can
<PB N="68" REF="32"> they not be remoued but by publique authoritie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>The manners of men are accidentall vnto their callings, but in a Mini&s;ter to be able to teach, is e&s;&s;entiall.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It hath in d&eacute;ede more affinitie than other parts that &s;hould be in him. Yet vnder correction of the lear|ned, I take it not to be &s;imply e&s;&s;entiall, as that without which he is no Mini&s;ter.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Why &s;o?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I remember h&eacute;ere an olde le&s;&s;on long ago taught me, whe~ I was a yong Scholler in the Vniuer|&s;itie, where I left much good learning behinde me, that, <HI>forma dat e&s;&s;e &amp; nomen rei,</HI> the formall cau&s;e giueth both the e&s;&s;ence and name vnto euery thing.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>We that are vnlearned, vnder&s;tand not the&s;e &s;peaches.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>There is more difficultie in the tearmes, than in the things them&s;elues. I will labor to make it plaine vnto you. A man is a man not for his body, nor for that which he hath common with other liuing and &s;en&s;ible creatures, but for y^e rea&s;onable &s;oule he is indued withal.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>This I perceiue. But is not his body, life, and &s;en&s;e nece&s;&s;ary vnto the being of a man?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Yes, but not &s;o, as the mayme or imperfection of any or all of the&s;e &s;hould de&s;troy the e&s;&s;ence of a man. For though y^e body do want many members, as armes, legs, eyes, eares, no&s;e: and though the &s;en&s;es be many of the~ benummed that he can not heare, &s;mell, ta&s;te, &amp;c. and though the whole body be oppre&s;&s;ed with many grieuous &amp; dangerous di&s;ea&s;es, yet is he not therefore no man, &s;o long as there remayneth a rea&s;onable &s;oule vnited vnto this mi&s;erable and wretched body. Al&s;o a man is a man fro~ his conception, yet you ea&s;ily vnder|&s;tand how many &amp; great imperfections there are in the matter and &s;ubiect of his nature.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>What thinke you then to be the formall cau&s;e
<PB N="69" REF="32"> of a Mini&s;ter, that giueth vnto him both his e&s;&s;ence and name.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>His calling and inauguration into the Mini|&s;terie: for he is not a Mini&s;ter before, though he had the gifts of an Apo&s;tle.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I graunt he is no Mini&s;ter without this, but doth not al&s;o the want of gifts make them to be no Mini&s;ters?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>The Prie&s;ts vnder the lawe were oftentimes vnlearned, yet were they not therefore no Prie&s;tes, and though they bee called dumme dogges to their great &s;hame and reproach, yet they are allowed to be dogges. I haue not read that any of <HI>Aarons</HI> &s;ucce&s;&s;ors was euer denied to be a Prie&s;t. But I reade that vnle&s;&s;e hee that affected the Prie&s;thood could proue him&s;elfe to bee of the<NOTE PLACE="marg">E&s;d. 2. 62.</NOTE> hou&s;e of <HI>Araon,</HI> he was not admitted therevnto.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Is then the calling of the Church more vnto the e&s;&s;ence of a Mini&s;ter, than his vn&s;ufficiencie is vn|to the nullitie of his Mini&s;terie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Out of all controuer&s;ie, as I thinke. I will willingly heare any grounded rea&s;on again&s;t it.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I would gladly yet further vnder&s;tand of you<NOTE PLACE="marg">Calling.</NOTE> what you thinke to be contained in this word Calling.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Fir&s;t election and choi&s;e vnto the function of the Mini&s;tery: then admi&s;&s;ion therevnto by impo&s;ition of hands: addiction vnto a &s;peciall charge by authoritie of the Church, and the con&s;ent and acceptation of the people.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Bee it then that they bee Mini&s;ters&punc; and that wee cannot deny vnto them the honour of this calling, &s;o long as the Church hauing receaued them, doth al&s;o retaine them: may we likewi&s;e v&s;e their Mini&s;terie.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>In that where in they are able to doo the du|tie of a Mini&s;ter, for from whome wee cannot haue all that wee &s;hould, we mu&s;t bee content to take that which they can giue.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="70" REF="33">
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>For the re&s;t?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>What we cannot haue at home, we mu&s;t &s;eeke abroad, where it is to bee found. Or els with <HI>Dauid</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">2 Sam. 6. 3, 10</NOTE> &s;eeke to bring home the arke of the Lord vnto our owne dwellings, as I haue alreadie &s;ayd.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>We may then pray with them according to the Leiturgie of the Church.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I dare not denie it; yet there are &s;ome which thinke there &s;hould be no Church Leiturgie, but the Mi|ni&s;ter &s;hould pray and admini&s;ter all things according to his owne liking.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>That would be ful of confu&s;ion, di&s;traction, and ambition. Wee may al&s;o heare them read the word.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>We may &s;o: and I am per&s;waded, that as publique praier hath greater promi&s;e of ble&s;&s;ing than that which is priuate, for the cau&s;e alleadged by the A|po&s;tle, <HI>That manie faces finde more fauor before God</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Cor. 1. 11.</NOTE> <HI>than one:</HI> &s;o the publique reading of the holy &s;criptures hath both more maie&s;tie, and more power and ble&s;&s;ing from GOD, than that which is priuate: and I &s;ee it<NOTE PLACE="marg">Luc 4. 16. Act. 13. 15.</NOTE> to haue b&eacute;en of mo&s;t ancient continuance in the Church of God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You are not of minde with &s;ome that &s;ay, rea|ding is preaching.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>No if you vnder&s;tand preaching for the prin|cipall and chiefe parte of the Mini&s;ter his dutie, and for that which is called the wi&s;dom and power of God vnto<NOTE PLACE="marg">Rom. 1. 16. 1. Cor. 1. 24.</NOTE> &s;aluation. But if you take preaching for a publique and religious denuntiation of the trueth of GOD, it may in &s;ome &s;ort&punc; receaue that name, and that by the authoritie of the Apo&s;tle in the Acts.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Let vs come vnto their admini&s;tration of the<NOTE PLACE="marg">Act. 15. 21.</NOTE> Sacraments.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>If they be mini&s;ters, then you doubt not but the Sacraments admini&s;tred by them, are Sacraments?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="90" REF="33">
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>That mu&s;t needes be granted, but not con|trariwi&s;e.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>I &s;ee what you meane: but let vs moue no mo que&s;tions at this time. If their Sacraments bee the Sacraments of God, tell me if you can, why they &s;hould be refu&s;ed in that &s;eruice.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Becau&s;e the preaching of the word, which is the life of the Sacrament, is in their mini&s;terie &s;epa|rated and diuided from it.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>What if it be added in the mini&s;terie of another:</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Some al&s;o except again&s;t this, becau&s;e (&s;ay they) the word and Sacrament ought to meete in one per&s;on.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>If there were two pa&s;tors in the &s;ame Church, and the one did preach, and the other for the time bap|ti&s;e or admini&s;ter the Lords &s;upper, were it not agreea|ble vnto the practi&s;e of <HI>Peter</HI> at <HI>Cae&s;area,</HI> who co~manded<NOTE PLACE="marg">Acts. 10. 48.</NOTE> them to whom he had preached to be bapti&s;ed by others?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I &s;ee no let. Al&s;o I remember it is &s;ayd in <HI>John</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Iohn. 4. 2</NOTE> that Chri&s;t him&s;elfe preached, but did not bapti&s;e, otherwi&s;e than by the hand of his Apo&s;tles. Where|vnto &s;ome applie that of S. <HI>Paule;</HI> Chri&s;t &s;ent me not<NOTE PLACE="marg">1. Cor. 1. 17.</NOTE> to bapti&s;e, but to preach the Go&s;pell: but I mooue their obiections. The ca&s;e is yet harder where the Mini&s;ter bapti&s;eth, and none preacheth.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>So it is. Yet better is halfe a loafe, than no bread. And if the word of God be read both before and in the admini&s;tration of the Sacrament, I cannot wel &s;ee, how the word may bee truely &s;aid to bee &s;eperated from the Sacrament.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But it is &s;ayd, that they that come vnto the Sacraments mu&s;t be taught the nature &amp; v&s;e of the~.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It is nece&s;&s;arie they &s;hould knowe both the one and the other: but it were much to &s;ay and proue it, that the word mu&s;t needes bee preached at the &s;ame in|&s;tant when the Sacrament is admini&s;tred.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="62" REF="34">
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Did not Chri&s;t &s;ay vnto his Apo&s;tles, Goe<NOTE PLACE="marg">Matth. 28. 19.</NOTE> preach, and baptize?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>But you mu&s;t con&s;ider to whome &amp; of whome it is &s;poken: namely, vnto the Apo&s;tles, who were to goe out into all Nations, where they mu&s;t n&eacute;edes teach, before they could Baptize; and of tho&s;e which were without, and yet not conuerted vnto Chri&s;t, in whome it was nece&s;&s;ary they &s;hould fir&s;t be taught, and then be baptized after the example of the Eunuch, and accor|ding to the manner of <HI>Iohns</HI> Mini&s;terie. But in Chur|ches<NOTE PLACE="marg">Act. 8. 31. Act 19. 4.</NOTE> e&s;tabli&s;hed it may be otherwi&s;e, though I like it be&s;t, that the word &s;hould be preached at the admini&s;tra|tion of the Sacraments.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>Your minde is then that it is mo&s;t agreeable vnto the ordinaunce of God, and mo&s;t profitable vnto the a&s;&s;embly, that the word preached, and the Sacra|ments &s;hould go together, yet you thinke the want of the one is no &s;ufficient cau&s;e, of the refu&s;ing of the other.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>No more than it is to refu&s;e the preaching of the word, when there is no Sacrament admini&s;tred.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>But &s;hould wee not rather &s;eeke the Sacra|ments there, where they are ioyned with the prea|ching of the Go&s;pell.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>We mu&s;t here con&s;ider, what belongeth vnto the peace and order of the Church, and how we may a|uoide the prouocation of tho&s;e, both of the Mini&s;terie and of the Magi&s;tracie, who&s;e anger again&s;t vs may do more hurt than all our zeale is able to do good.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>You would not haue vs to fauour or fo&s;ter any corruption, to hold peace and credit with men?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Not &s;o. But when we cannot haue al that which we would, let vs take that which wee may: &amp; &s;eeke the re&s;t by &s;uch good meanes as the Lord &s;hall offer vnto vs. And I am per&s;waded, that if they that require reforma|tion, had carried the~&s;elues more louingly both towards
<PB N="63" REF="34"> their brethren in the mini&s;terie, and al&s;o towards tho&s;e in who&s;e hands is the Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall and the ciuile go|uernement, le&s;&s;e to haue prouoked them again&s;t the cau&s;e and again&s;t them&s;elues; many things might haue b&eacute;en won at their hands which now I feare me, wil hardly be obtained.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I haue knowne &s;ome of that minde, but they haue been thought too cold in the cau&s;e of reformation.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>It may be &s;o, but of &s;uch as haue more offen|ded in their vndi&s;cretion, than the other in their modera|tion. And I haue &s;ometimes meruailed their &s;ucce&s;&s;e hath b&eacute;en no wor&s;e, con&s;idering the &s;trong and high hand whereby things haue b&eacute;en menaged. But yonder come our wiues to call vs to &s;upper, wee wil therefore breake off this conference for this time.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I am right &s;ory we can continue it no longer: but I hartely thanke you for this paines, and pray you that as the cau&s;e of this was from your &s;elfe: &s;o you will giue mee leaue at &s;ome other time to call vpon you for the like.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Let vs now goe meete the&s;e me&s;&s;engers, for they meane to take no deniall at our hands, and we our &s;elues being by this wel wearied, haue need of intermi&s;|&s;ion and refre&s;hing, both of our bodies and of our minds.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will followe you. But there is yet one thing wherein I would craue your fauour and helpe.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>What is that?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>As you haue reconciled my minde to our good Pa&s;tor Ma&s;ter <HI>Timotheus,</HI> &s;o I pray you recon|cile vs in deed.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Soph.</SPEAKER>
<P>I will be very ready and glad to doo &s;o good a dutie to you both, and there will bee a pre&s;ent occa&s;ion thereof, I looke for him here at &s;upper, and it may be h&eacute;e is come already, and would not trouble vs becau&s;e hee &s;awe vs in &s;o earne&s;t conference. Lo yonder he is in d&eacute;ed, let vs goe vnto him, the matter may be di&s;patched be|fore
<PB N="94" REF="35"> &s;upper, for knowing your minde and the pietie of the man, I doubt not but it will be done at two words. We &s;hall after enioy one anothers companie with more comfort.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ari.</SPEAKER>
<P>I de&s;ire it may bee &s;o; and therefore for my part, you &s;hall command me.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Sophr.</SPEAKER>
<P>Not &s;o: but let vs meete the good father, where hee commeth towards vs: &s;o &s;hall wee deceaue our me&s;&s;engers, who thinke to find vs in this place. But they &s;hall loo&s;e no great labour, to come &s;o farre out of their way.</P>
</SP>
<TRAILER>FINIS.</TRAILER>
<PB REF="35">
</DIV1>
</BODY>
</TEXT>
</EEBO>
</ETS>
