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<DATE>2014-04-30</DATE>
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<NAME>Alexis Jakobson</NAME>
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<DIV1 TYPE="title page">
<PB REF="1">
<PB REF="1" MS="y">
<P><HI>THE</HI> UNREASONABLNES OF THE SEPARATION; Made apparent, in an Examination of, and An|&s;were to, certaine Rea&s;ons of <HI>Mai&s;ter Francis John&s;on; Whereby he laboureth to justifie his Schi&s;me from the Church-A&s;semblies OF ENGLAND; By Mai&s;ter VVilliam Bradshaw decea&s;ed.</HI></P>
<P>Together with a Rejoinder, in defence of the &s;aid An&s;were, again&s;t the late Reply of Mai&s;ter Iohn Canne (a Leader to a Company of Browni&s;ts in Am&s;terdam) thereunto, by a Freind of the decea&s;ed.</P>
<P><FIGURE>
</FIGURE></P>
<P>Prnited in the Yeare of our Lord, 1640.</P>
</DIV1>
<DIV1 TYPE="errata">
<PB REF="2" MS="y">
<P>THe intelligent Reader is to be de&s;ired in his owne ob&s;ervation of the &s;cope of pa&s;&s;ages throughout this treati&s;e to correct what Errata may be found in the prin|ting, becau&s;e there was noc Englishman to attend the Correction of them.</P>
</DIV1>
<DIV1 TYPE="preface">
<PB REF="2">
<HEAD>To all the <HI>ENGLISH PREACHERS &amp; HEARERS</HI> Of Gods word (who are noe Brownists) whe+ther continuing in their owne country or remooved into forraine parts.</HEAD>
<P><HI>_REverend &amp; Beloved.</HI> Give me Leave, I be&s;eech you to mind you of that which after a &s;peciall manner concernes you all: There are a Generation of your country, called Browni&s;ts, who glory in this, that they are of the &s;eparation, Brethren of the Separation they call them&s;elves, &amp; take it very ill, if any of you call them otherwi&s;e. Now you mu&s;t know that in the judgement of the&s;e, it may be not of every particular man or woman of them, but of the Leaders of them, &amp; the greate&s;t part of them, I &s;ay in the judgment of the&s;e.</P>
<P N="1">1. Among&s;t you who are preachers, if you have receyved any Allowance or Authority to preach from Bi&s;hops unle&s;&s;e you have againe &s;olemnly renoun|ced what you haue receyved from them, there is not a man of you, who is a Mini&s;ter of Je&s;us Chri&s;t. And marvaile not at this, for they have the &s;ame judgment of all, who have beene preachers before you in the like kind, though &s;ome of them have beene glorious Martyrs, others have beene famous writers in defence of the truth &amp; others have had their preaching crowned with the happy conver&s;ion of many &s;oules to God: yet not a man of them any mini&s;ter of Chri&s;t. Ah poore England hath the Lord Chri&s;t &s;o neglected thee aboue all other Prote&s;tant nations that to this day, he hath giuen thee not one of his Pa&s;tours &amp; Teachers, which he hath &s;ent abroad &s;ince his a&s;cen&s;ion, unle&s;&s;e &s;ome, few Browni&s;ts?</P>
<P N="2">2. Among&s;t you who are hearers of Gods word preached by any of the&s;e though otherwi&s;e you &s;erue God in righteou&s;nes and holine&s;&s;e, before him all your dayes there is not a man or woman of you if the Browni&s;ts may judge, but you are all &s;uch, who live in manife&s;t &s;inne and wickedne&s;&s;e by this your hearing
<PB REF="3"> of them. Even this very yeare one of them in Am&s;terdam, and an other of them in London have in print pa&s;&s;ed this doome upon you all.</P>
<P>Doth it not then concerne you all to inquire &s;eriou&s;ly, whether the&s;e men judge righteous judgement of you or noe? Reverend &amp; Beloved, The Treati&s;e following will helpe you much this way, if you will be content to read it, &amp; ob&s;erve diligently what you reade, which that you may the better under&s;tand, it will be requi&s;ite, you take &s;peciall notice of this relation.</P>
<P>Long &s;ince one Mai&s;ter Francis John&s;on a prime Leader of Separati&s;ts in Am&s;terdam publi&s;hed divers arguments &amp; rea&s;ons to proove it not lawfull to heare or have any &s;pirituall communion with the pre&s;ent Mini&s;tery of the Church A&s;&s;emblies in England. Sundry yeares after that, by an occa&s;ion, which you will find reported in this en&s;uing Tractate, one Mai&s;ter William Brad&s;haw&punc; a Learned and Godly divine of England an&s;wered tho&s;e Arguments. And &s;ome few yeares pa&s;t, one Mai&s;ter Iohn Can: (who as I heare hath in a late printed booke &s;tyled him&s;elfe Mini&s;ter of the Engli&s;h Church in Am&s;terdam, as though there were noe other Engli&s;h Church there but he &amp; his Company. whereas there is an other, and it approoved both by Magi&s;trates &amp; Mini&s;ters there, when as he &amp; his Company are onely tolerated there as Papi&s;ts Anabapti&s;ts &amp; &s;ome other &s;ectaries are:) This Mai&s;ter Iohn Can wrote a booke to proove from the Principles of Engli&s;h Non Conformi&s;ts, that there ought to be a &s;epa|ration from the Church A&s;&s;emblies in England, in which booke of his he labours to defend Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons arguments agani&s;t the an&s;wers of Mai&s;ter Brad|&s;haw. Now you mu&s;t know, that however this booke of Mai&s;ter Can hath beene an&s;wered by &s;ome in private, to &s;atisfy &s;ome weake in judgment, yet for &s;ome yeares it hath receyved noe An&s;wer in publique onely Mai&s;ter Iohn Da|venport&punc; a famous preacher &s;ometimes in London, hath profe&s;&s;ed in a booke of his, that he had many things to &s;ay in defence of D^r. Ames (whom in that booke Mai&s;ter Can makes u&s;e of to his purpo&s;e) and withall affirmes that he had heard &s;ome others had under taken to an&s;wer him.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Treati&s;e be|tweene him &amp; Mai&s;ter Paget p. 282 283.</NOTE> But the truth is, I never yet knew or have heard that in print he hath beene an&s;wered and would you know the rea&s;on? &s;urely I can give you noe other then this, That generally in England with the mo&s;t Iudicious that booke of his hath not beene thought worthy of An&s;wer, Learned men not judging it worth the while, to &s;top his mouth who barkes &s;o loud, &amp; bites &s;o litle: yet now you may &s;ee heere that booke of his is an&s;wered, e&s;pecially in the maine of it, &amp; Mai&s;ter Can him&s;elfe may &s;ee, that he hath beene dealt with, as the &s;pirit of God would have &s;uch per&s;ons as he is,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Pro. 26.5.6.</NOTE> dealt withall.</P>
<PB REF="3">
<P>For a time hee hath not bene an&s;wered, lea&s;t the An&s;werer of him &s;hould have &s;eemed to bee like him, yet in time hee is An&s;wered, lea&s;t hee &s;hould bee wi&s;e in his owne eyes, and &s;o An&s;wered now hee is, That as the Learned and Reverend Authour of this Reioynder which followes, hath vindicated the worth and honour of his Deare freind Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, from the weake Argumen|tations and unworthy Calumnies of Mai&s;ter Canne, &s;o hee hath di&s;couered Mai&s;ter Canne to bee a meere empty caske, not with &s;tanding the great &s;ound, which hee hath made. It is long &s;ince even &s;ome yeares pa&s;t, that this worke hath bene ready for the pre&s;&s;e, and for that end out of the Authours hands, and however for &s;ome rea&s;on hitherto concealed, yet now thought meete to bee publi&s;hed.</P>
<P N="1">1. In Regard of Mai&s;ter Canne, that hee may no more complaine of Gnatts, which hee hath felt, but not &s;eene, and of Trencher &s;quibbs reaching no further then the end of the table, not &s;o farre as to penne incke and paper, for an&s;wering him in a faire and hone&s;t way, Thus hee complaines in his late booke again&s;t Mai&s;ter Robin&s;on, Heere now hee hath an An&s;wer prepared for him, the penne,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Epi&s;tle to the <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">eader.</NOTE> incke and paper wherof may po&s;&s;ibly bite him after another maner then the&s;e gnatts hee &s;peakes of, and &s;tartle him &s;ome what more then the&s;e &s;quibbs hee mentions. And is it not time that the man &s;hould have an An&s;wer, &s;eenig hee &s;o calls for it?</P>
<P N="2">2. It hath bene thou<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ht the more &s;eo&s;onable now to print this worke. In Regard of &s;ome others, who have lately drawne many good &s;oules, into wayes of &s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">paration and are (at is &s;eemes) looking very wi&s;tly upon Mai&s;ter Cannes way. It &s;eemes hee takes it they are of his mind, For whence is it el<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e, that hee &s;o in&s;ults in that booke of his called a &s;tay again&s;t &s;traieng,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Ep<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;tle to <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 word">.</NOTE> That now men are of founder judgment then to defend either the Church &s;tate, Mini&s;terie, wor&s;hip or Government of England as &s;ome profe&s;&s;ours formerly haue done the fal&s;enes of the&s;e being now &s;eene and acknowledged of the hone&s;ter and better &s;ort every where, &s;o that none now except Formali&s;ts, Famili&s;ts and men of corrupt minds, who count gaine godlines, will appeare in the Defence heerof. And &s;urely &s;ome others be&s;ides Mai&s;ter Canne have great cau&s;e to &s;u&s;pect that &s;ome of the&s;e at the lea&s;t, however for a time they hover about, yet their purpo&s;e is in the end to meet with Mai&s;ter Canne in the &s;ame center of &s;eparation. For it is com|monly &s;aid, that &s;ome of their leaders Keepe great corre&s;pondencie with him in private, and when they or their di&s;ciples are occa&s;ionally in Am&s;terdame or the Lords day, they either altogether or for the mo&s;t part frequent his A&s;&s;emblie.
<PB REF="4"> Now heere al&s;o in this Treati&s;e, unle&s;&s;e their judgements bee to much fore|&s;talled&punc; the&s;e may al&s;o meete with &s;ome what for their &s;atisfaction and this may the rather bee hoped, becau&s;e for ought is yet publi&s;hed by them, they have no other ground for their &s;eparation, e&s;pecially from the mini&s;terie of the Church A&s;&s;emblies in England, then what Mai&s;ter John&s;on who is heere an&s;wered had formerly. There is jndeed a great noi&s;e in England at this day, and hath bene for the&s;e 3. or 4. yeares pa&s;t of a New light and a New way, but where &s;hines this light? &s;urely if any where it is onely in &s;ome darke lanthornes. Heertefore when Mai&s;ter John&s;on, Ain&s;worth, Smith, Robin&s;on lead others in to &s;eparation, the like cry was then rai&s;ed of a New light and a New way, but then tho&s;e Ringleaders made knowne the light, wherby they were guided in to that way, but it is not &s;o with the&s;e, who though they are in wayes of &s;epara|tion, yet further then by private letters and clancular manu&s;cripts, thy hold not forth the light leading them in to their way. And this Mai&s;ter Canne him&s;elfe &s;eemes to complaine of in &s;ome of them, who belike jumpe not as yet with him in every thing, It &s;eemes hee expects they &s;hould bee in every degree of &s;epara|tion as hee is, and therfore beeing di&s;contented, that they are as yet &s;ome what a loofe from him, hee blames them, That they doe not publi&s;h to the world their New principles in a faire and open way. But however hee fretts &s;ome what at the&s;e, it is probable hee hath better, hopes of &s;ome others among&s;t them, not onely becau&s;e of that In&s;ultation of his formerly &s;pecified but becau&s;e hee tells the world in that booke of his,,<NOTE PLACE="marg">In the &s;ame Epi&s;tle.</NOTE> That hee is now in hand with a large Treati&s;e of Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Policie, even the whole externall Regiment of the church of God. Now it is not like that Mai&s;ter Canne &s;hould bee the onely oracle of his time to give &s;atisfaction in &s;uch a matter, e&s;pecially con&s;idering how this Reioynder di&s;couers both his want of learning and indeed of hone&s;tie. But if &s;ome of greater &s;trength, will yeeld him their helpe, choo&s;ing rather to vent their New Notions by his penne then their owne, then hee may have &s;ome en+couragement to undertake &s;uch a bu&s;ines, yet bee it &s;o, I can &s;ay no le&s;&s;e, but that it is very improbable, either hee or any other joyning with him in the like degree of &s;eparation, &s;hould perfect &s;o high and difficult a taske, con&s;idering how many Arrowes have bene &s;hott awry at this marke by former &s;eparati&s;ts, yet as famous in their time for learning and pietie as any who have now put them&s;elves on in this fe<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ld of &s;eparation. Truely it pitties mee to thincke, that &s;ome now who are indeed worthy of great honour for their excellent parts and abilities &s;hould yet by their wayes of &s;eparation.</P>
<P N="1"><PB REF="4">1. Wound that good cau&s;e of old Non conformitie in England, by confirming many there, in that Auncient yet common mi&s;take of Non conformi&s;ts that they are all Browni&s;ts in heart. I may well call that a Mi&s;take, remembring how many Non conformi&s;ts haue written again&s;t Browni&s;me as Mai&s;ter Cartwright, Gifford, Hilder&s;am, Darrell, Brightman, Ames, Brad&s;haw, Paget, &amp;c.</P>
<P N="2">2. Di&s;honour that Auncient and Approoved cour&s;e of Church Governe|ment, by Presbyteries Cla&s;&s;es, &s;ynods, which hath bene and &s;till is u&s;ed among&s;t the Prote&s;tant cantons in Helvetia, in the Prote&s;tant Churches of France and Belgia, and in the Church of Schotland al&s;o: It is an ea&s;ie thing, to &s;ay this was Caluins devi&s;e; and to cry out of cla&s;&s;es as fowle things, when yet they who cry out &s;o, know not what they are. But if this Governement bee good, for any to cry it downe as evill, may proove a cour&s;e drawing woe<NOTE N="*" PLACE="marg">E&s;a 5.20.</NOTE> with it.</P>
<P N="3">3. Carry on &s;o many precious chri&s;tians of all rancks in to cour&s;es, which may very probably wa&s;t their e&s;tates, expo&s;e their po&s;terities to mi&s;erie and want, plunge them&s;elves in to various errours and Here&s;ies, and at the la&s;t breake them into pieces by &s;chi&s;mes among&s;t them&s;elves, as it hath come to pa&s;&s;e, with many heertofore, who howeuer when they were in their fir&s;t loue of that New way, they &s;uppo&s;ed, they found &s;uch rare and extraordinarie comforts in it, that no Di&s;&s;wa&s;ions then could take them of, yet &s;uch became their Deplorable e&s;ta|te, that many of them came home againe by weeping cro&s;&s;e, and others &s;till abiding in forraine parts, fell upon &s;uch inconveniences as have bene named. It is therfore much to bee de&s;ired, that if the&s;e men have any thoughts of lea|ding on their Di&s;ciples into the &s;ame degree of &s;eparation with Mai&s;ter Canne, that they would looke well before they leape, and for that end, take along with them the help of this Treati&s;e, which may bee like through the ble&s;&s;ing of God upon their humble and pious inquirie after the trueth, to &s;atisfie them in that maine point of the Mini&s;terie of the Church a&s;&s;emblies in England.</P>
<P>As both in regard of Mai&s;ter Canne and tho&s;e other menti<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ned, the printing of this en&s;uing worke is conceived now to bee mo&s;t &s;ea&s;onable, In regard of you all, who are by Browni&s;ts judged No Mini&s;ters of Chri&s;t, if you bee preach|ers, and if private Chri&s;tians, yet &s;uch as liue <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">n an unlawfull way and cour&s;e, by hearing the&s;e preachers. If you now Reverend and Beloved &s;hal with hone&s;t hearts read this booke and &s;eriou&s;ly compare every Argument with the An&s;wer to it, and every Reply, with the Rei<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ynder to it, there may bee good hope, that God wil bee plea&s;ed &s;o farre to enlighten you, that you who are faithfull and con&s;cionable preachers, &s;hall bee able to &s;ee, that you have the &s;ub&s;tance and E&s;&s;entialitie of a lawfull calling, notwith&s;tanding all circum|&s;tantiall
<PB REF="5"> defect which may bee found about it &s;o that whatever Browni&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="right margin cropped or obscured" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1+ letters"> affirme to the contrarie, you are Me&s;&s;engers of the Churches and the Glory o<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="right margin cropped or obscured" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1+ letters"> Chri&s;t. And you who are Hearers of Gods word from the&s;e preachers &s;hal be<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="right margin cropped or obscured" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 span"> able to di&s;cerne, That as you have lawfully and to your great comfort hear<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="right margin cropped or obscured" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1+ letters"> the&s;e, &s;o you may lawfully &s;till doe it, and waite on God for a &s;pirituall ble&s;&s;ing upon the Mini&s;terie of the&s;e, what ever John Lilburne out of his pri&s;on o<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="right margin cropped or obscured" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1+ letters"> John Canne out of his pre&s;&s;e, have this yeare written to the contrarie. I will &s;ay<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="right margin cropped or obscured" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 span"> no more, but the Lord give under&s;tanding in all things.</P>
</DIV1>
<DIV1 TYPE="preface">
<PB N="1" REF="5">
<HEAD>D^r^. AMES HIS PREFACE to M^r^. B^s^. An&s;were.</HEAD>
<HEAD>To the well-meaning Reader.</HEAD>
<P>_THinke not evill, if thou meane&s;t well. wee intend not to in&s;ult over him that is down, or to pur&s;ue a man that is flying of him|&s;elfe; but to lend him a hand, that knoweth not well which way to take. M^r. Iohn&s;on indeed is rather to be pittyed, then much oppo&s;ed. wee need but &s;tand &s;til as lookers on, he falleth willingly on his owne &s;word. But that his fall may be a ri&s;ing againe, not onely to him&s;elfe, but to others al&s;o, both armour-bearers &amp; fol|lowers of his; it was judged nece&s;&s;ary to guide them a little while their heads are dizzy, &amp; bring them fairely from of the bog they have &s;tood on.</P>
<P>It is not M. Iohn&s;on that is dealt withall alone. For change the name onely &amp; put in Mr. Ain&s;worth, or any &s;uch: them&s;elves wil not &s;ay, but the Rea|&s;ons are theirs, and the An&s;were to them as well as to him. It may be, that they having le&s;&s;e acquainta~ce with Logical formes of di&s;pute, wil looke for large di&s;cour&s;e, or heaped quotations out of Scripture. But rea&s;on wil tell them, that many words do rather hide, then untie the knot of a Syllogi&s;me: and much quoting may prove &s;omething; but an&s;wereth not directly to any thing. Now the writers meaning was, not to gather proofes; but to point at the weakne&s;&s;e of &s;uch as the&s;e men have gathered. Reade therefore with under|&s;tanding, &amp; learn a mean betwixt <HI>all</HI> &amp; <HI>Nothing.</HI></P>
</DIV1>
<DIV1 TYPE="preface">
<PB N="2" REF="6">
<HEAD>The Authors Preface to this Rejoinder.</HEAD>
<P>IT is no ma&s;tery to plucke a dead Lion by the beard. Any cowardlie curre dare doe it: even &s;uch as dur&s;t not come within a furlong, much le&s;&s;e looke once in the face of a Lion, while he lived. Nor is it a thing unu&s;uall, for men of little worth, to trample upon the a&s;hes of Gods worthyes decea&s;ed. In this kinde one Can, a man hitherto of little note or name, (though the head, it &s;eemeth, now of a Schi&s;me) hath endeavoured to get and gain &s;ome better note and name to him&s;elfe by trampling upon, and in&s;ulting over &s;ome of Gods &s;ervants of good name and note, but at re&s;t now with the Lord.</P>
<P>Among other of tho&s;e, whome he hath undertaken thus to traduce, is that ble&s;&s;ed &s;ervant of God M^r. VVilliam Brad&s;haw; a man for his piety, patience, humility, mode&s;ty, peacable carriage, unblameable conver&s;ation, quickne&s;&s;e of apprehen&s;ion, maturity of judgement, cleerne&s;&s;e of re&s;olution, plainenes, pain|fulne&s;&s;e and powerfulne&s;&s;e in the worke of the mini&s;terie, was much admired of tho&s;e that knew him. and conver&s;ed with him while he lived, and hath left a &s;weete and &s;avoury remembrance of him, &s;ince his decea&s;e, in the mindes, not of them alone, but of others al&s;o that have beene conver&s;ant in his workes.</P>
<P>Now this hath this Can taken occa&s;ion to doe, pretending in way of ju&s;ti|fication of the Schi&s;me that he and his faction &s;tand in, the refutation of, or re|ply unto, an An&s;were publi&s;hed by M^r. Brad&s;haw, in his life time, (a thing be|fore him now, not attempted or undertaken by any) to certain <HI>Rea&s;ons</HI> of <HI>M^r. Fr. Iohn&s;on</HI> concerning that argument, Wherein how he hath demeaned him|&s;elfe, &s;hall hereafter appeare.</P>
<P>To vindicate therefore both the trueth of God by him maintained, and the credite of this his &s;ervant unju&s;tly appeached again&s;t the frivolous oppo&s;itions and fal&s;e calumniations of this Can; (which he him&s;elfe, were he living, had beene, not fitte&s;t onely, but be&s;t able of any that I know; to have performed) out of the entire affection &amp; reverent re&s;pect, that I bare to him while he li|ved, &amp; doe &s;till de&s;ervedly to the memory of him now decea&s;ed, I have under|taken this ta&s;ke: though not intending to engage my &s;elfe further in the&s;e con|trover&s;ies, wherein too much paper to little purpo&s;e hath beene wa&s;ted already, &s;ave as this my chiefe intendemet &s;hall nece&s;&s;arily require.</P>
<P>Now here before I come to examine M^r. Cans refutation of the worke it &s;elfe; I can not but take notice of &s;ome per&s;onall a&s;per&s;ions ca&s;t by him upon the Author of it, to the end that tho&s;e remooved, we may the more clearely,
<PB N="3" REF="6"> without by-lets, proceede in the maine bu&s;ine&s;&s;e.</P>
<P>Fir&s;t therefore, by occa&s;ion of &s;ome &s;peech of D^r. Ames, the publi&s;her of M^r. B^s. booke, that <HI>it was not the Authors meaning to gather proofes,</HI> he ta|keth occa&s;ion p. 210. to taxe him for <HI>not alledging of Scripture,</HI> and <HI>bringing proofe thence,</HI> for that he &s;peakes: that which he oft repeateth afterwards againe and againe, as hereafter &s;hall bee &s;hewed.</P>
<P>But had M^r. Can beene plea&s;ed but to reade, or to adde, M^r. B^s. very next words: <HI>but to point at the weakene&s;&s;e of &s;uch as the&s;e men have gathered:</HI> he might have had a faire &amp; full an&s;were to this his exceptio~. It was a &s;ufficient an&s;|wering of M^r. I^s. to &s;hew that the proofes produced by him were impertinent, which might well bee performed without any further allegations.</P>
<P>To this might be added, fir&s;t, that the one moity of M^r. I^s. booke con&s;i|&s;teth of <HI>Rea&s;ons</HI> profe&s;&s;edly drawn from <HI>humane te&s;timonies;</HI> which needed not therefore, nor were indeed, by any &s;uch cour&s;e to bee an&s;wered; but either by rejection of the witne&s;&s;es authority; or by &s;hewing, that his a&s;&s;ertions make not for M^r. I^s. purpo&s;e, or the proofe of his conclu&s;ion. And &s;econdly, that in the other moity of <HI>Rea&s;ons</HI> pretended to be taken from <HI>Scripture,</HI> how&s;oever for the <HI>propo&s;ition</HI> indeed of his <HI>arguments,</HI> being either apparent &amp; undeniable, or le&s;&s;e que&s;tionable at lea&s;t, many Scriptures are packt together many times to litle purpo&s;e, as being either needle&s;ly or incongruou&s;ly alledged: yet the <HI>A&s;|&s;umption,</HI> which is generally the more que&s;tionable part, being matter of fact al&s;o for the mo&s;t part, is by M^r. I^s. him&s;elfe very &s;eldome backt with any Scrip|ture at all, &s;ave in that one place, p. 11. the A&s;&s;umption of the &s;econd argument in the fir&s;t Rea&s;on: where Scriptures, the trueth is, are mu&s;tered up, more then enough, but &s;o palpablely abu&s;ed, as hereafter we &s;hall &s;hew, that &s;ome of his owne followers have beene &s;ometime a&s;hamed of it.</P>
<P>Nor can M^r. Can tax M^r. Brad&s;haw herein without cen&s;uring of him&s;elfe; who throughout his whole intended refutation of M^r. Brad&s;haw is very &s;pa|ring in this kinde; having very few proofes of Scripture for any, not any at all for many, yea for the mo&s;t, points therein controverted: though for things not que&s;tioned, after his brother Iohn&s;ons fashion, or matter of meere illu&s;tration, he paint his margine &s;ome time with them.</P>
<P>Howbeit renewing his charge of M^r. B^s. with a brazen brow, he mo&s;t fal&s;ly averreth, p, 217. that <HI>his proofs are allwaies beggarly I &s;ays, or Ifs, and may be &s;oe.</HI> And that <HI>he doth not in all his writing either directly or by &s;ound con&s;equence from the Scriptures, confirme any one thing whereof he &s;peaketh,</HI> &amp; p. 225. <HI>He delivers his opinion upon his owne word: &amp; if we wil not take that, we
<PB N="4" REF="7"> mu&s;t have nothing. For</HI> p. 235. <HI>He never brings either Scriptures, examples Rea|&s;ons, or humane te&s;timonies, to confirme any one thing whereof he writes.</HI> And againe, abu&s;ing the name of God withall p. 239. <HI>The wi&s;dome of God is marve+lou&s;ly here to be &s;een, which &s;uffred not this man to countenance his corrupt &s;pee|ches with any weight or &s;hew of Argument,</HI> And yet again, p. 240. <HI>He hath not from the beginning to the end of his booke, brought one proofe from the word of God; to make good any one thing, whereof he &s;peaketh, but, as if he were one of the illuminate Fathers of the Familist, delivereth his yea &amp; nay allwayes upon his owne bare word.</HI></P>
<P>All which Exceptions are no le&s;&s;e fals then frivolous, &amp; frivolous then fal&s;e, for may not Mr. B^s. di&s;cover M. I^s ignorance, unles he quote Scripture for it; as Mr. Can doth p. 257. 1. Tim. 1.7. &amp; Jude 10? nor detect the faultine&s;&s;e of his Arguments, unles, as Mr. Can doth. p. 235. he quote Hierome for it, &s;aying of &s;ome (if he &s;ay &s;o at lea&s;t, for M^r. Can credit is none of the be&s;t) that <HI>they have theire Arguments neither in moode nor figure,</HI> &amp;c. nor tax him in his owne tearms, unles he cite Salomon, prov. 26.5? nor referre to Scripture, unles he quote chapter &amp; ver&s;e; for example; to proove that the <HI>Scribes &amp; Phari&s;ees</HI> were, <HI>not onely, as Mr. I^s. minceth it, a speciall &s;ect among the Iewes, that pretended a more &s;trict ob&s;ervation of the law then others; but joyned al&s;o many humane traditions &amp; wil-worships to the wor&s;hip &amp; &s;ervice of God;</HI> was it not &s;ufficient for him to &s;ay as he doth, p. 28. <HI>They are &s;aid by Chri&s;t him&s;elfe to make the commandements of God of none effect,</HI> &amp;c. unles for&s;ooth he quot Math. 15.6.&mdash;9. a place that every one allmo&s;t wel enough knoweth, or to prove, that <HI>the Iewi&s;h Synagogues in Chri&s;t time were not free from all kinde of fal&s;e wor&s;hip, taking fal&s;e wor&s;hip in a large &s;en&s;e, for all &s;uch as failes either in matter or forme, more or le&s;&s;e,</HI> to &s;ay as he doth, p. 70. that <HI>Scripture witne&s;&s;eth the &s;ame,</HI> unles he mu&s;ter up all tho&s;e places, where our Saviour di&s;playeth the erroneous doctrine &amp; practi&s;e of the chiefe and principall teachers of tho&s;e times? or, was it not enough for him to &s;ay, concerning <HI>The Ministers maintainance,</HI> p 9. <HI>It is the wil of Christ, that the mini&s;ters of the Go&s;pel &s;hould live by the gospel;</HI> unles he quote 1. Cor. 9.14. though he give you Paules very words? &amp; againe, p. 104. <HI>Christ hath &s;et down no more in his Te&s;tament, then this in effect, that the Labourer is worthy of his hire: And that for the mini&s;tration of Spirituall things, the Churches, that enjoy theire Labours, ought to mini&s;ter unto them of theire temporalls.</HI> And againe, p. 108. <HI>That our Churches fulfill the Te&s;tament of Chri&s;t, in giving theire temporall things for Spirituall, in giving hire to the
<PB N="5" REF="7"> Labourers,</HI> unles withall he quote Math. 10.10. &amp; 1. Cor. 9.11. though he deliver the very words in expre&s;&s;e tearms of the one in the one place, &amp; the ju&s;t &amp; ful &s;umme &amp; &s;ub&s;tance of both of them in the other? Belike our Saviour, &amp; his Apo&s;tles never alleadged Scripture for ought that ever they taught, when either they named not the booke or cited not the particular p&s;alme or chapter, that I &s;ay not, ver&s;e too, for any te&s;timony thence produced. Neither yet relate I the&s;e M^r. B^s. allegations, as acknowledging any nece&s;&s;ity at all of allegation of Scripture in an An&s;were of this nature: which for the rea&s;ons before rendred was not needfull, nor could ju&s;tly be required; but to &s;hew this mans vanity and fal&s;hood, not regarding what he &s;aith, though never &s;o untrue, nor &s;o ea&s;y to be evinced.</P>
<P>For to pa&s;&s;e by what he &s;aith of <HI>no example</HI> brought by him, wherein the examples of Luther, Hu&s;&s;e, Wicklif, &amp;c. alledged by M^r. B. pag. 31. in an&s;were to the 1. argument of the 2. Rea&s;on; directly give M^r. C. the lie. And as for humane te&s;timonys, which, al&s;o he requireth, to omit, that they convince not the con&s;cience; a man may as wel alleadge Scripture to a profe&s;&s;ed Athei&s;t; as humane te&s;timonies to tho&s;e of his faction. for what weight can any humane te&s;timony have with them, who in the pride of theire hearts condemne all writers allmo&s;t of any note, as well ancient, as moderne (a few of theire owne faction onelie excepted) tho&s;e ble&s;&s;ed martyrs, that have &s;uffered &s;o many of them for Chri&s;ts cau&s;e not exemted form this theire arrogant Cen&s;ure; as either fal&s;e mini&s;ters, or members of fal&s;e Churches, &amp; &s;uch as were therefore to be &s;eparated from? And is not this a wi&s;e mans part, thincke wee then, to require te&s;timonies in this cau&s;e, wherein he knoweth we are able to produce twenty, if not 100. for one: and when he knoweth, that if we &s;hould produce them, (&s;uppo&s;e Cyprian &amp; Cornelius, again&s;t Novatus: Optatus &amp; Augu&s;tine again&s;t Donatus: D^r. Junius to the Separati&s;ts at Am&s;terdam: D^r. Ames again&s;t Robin&s;on; M^r. Cartwright again&s;t Harri&s;on; M^r. Gifford again&s;t Barrow &amp; Greenwood: Mr. Paget again&s;t Ain&s;worth, &amp;c.) we &s;hould be but laughed at by them for our labour; as alledging tho&s;e again&s;t them, whom they condemne as well as they doe us? yea their unequall cariage in this kinde M^r. B. ju&s;tly taxeth, p. 16. An&s;were to the fifth argument of the &s;econd Rea&s;on: that will pre&s;&s;e us with opinions, as M^r. Can here doth, of &s;ome of our writers, when <HI>them&s;elves refu&s;e</HI> the while&s;t <HI>to be bound unto, what theire predece&s;&s;ors, Brown, Barrow, and Greenwood have held before them.</HI></P>
<P>But whether M^r B. as he here chargeth him, never annex any rea&s;on for the proofe of ought he &s;aith (though it belonged not to him, being defendant or re|&s;pondent,
<PB N="6" REF="8"> but to the plaintiffe or accu&s;er by cour&s;e of Law, to the opponent by rule of di&s;pute to proove) let this booke it &s;elfe &s;peake: wherein it will be found, that M^r. B. very &s;eldome denies any propo&s;ition, but he giveth &s;ome rea&s;on or other of his deniall: which indeed, true it is, M^r. Can &s;eldome or never taketh notice of; but his u&s;uall manner is in &s;tead thereof, having framed an&s;weres, arguments, &amp; inferences of his owne, (ab&s;urd ones, you may be &s;ure, like him|&s;elfe) to father them upon him; and then having &s;hewed his skill in &s;hooting at men of &s;traw of his owne making, to triumph and &s;houte, as if he had hit and &s;ped Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw.</P>
<P>And this may &s;uffice for the wiping away of this fir&s;t calumney; the detecti|on of Mai&s;ter Cans vanity &amp; untrueth therein uttered.</P>
<P>In the next place, becau&s;e Mai&s;ter B^r. di&s;covereth &s;ometimes M^r. Iohn&s;ons defaults in Logick; and &s;peaketh &s;omewhat quick now and then upon ju&s;t oc|ca&s;ion, but without &s;uch gall and bitterne&s;&s;e, as with the&s;e men is too u&s;uall; Mai&s;ter Can chargeth him, pag. 212. with <HI>intemperate &s;peeches:</HI> but &s;aith with|all, that he waiveth <HI>the recitall of them&punc;</HI> or <HI>the repaying of them with the like: be|cau&s;e, it is</HI> (he &s;aith) <HI>no Christian mans part to render rebuke for rebuke;</HI> and he deemeth it <HI>a</HI> 1000. <HI>times better, to &s;u&s;tain even a Legion of reproches, then for a man by returning, though but one, to give cau&s;e of &s;u&s;pition, that evill hath got &s;ome part of conque&s;t over him.</HI></P>
<P>Where, for what is &s;aid concerning Mai&s;ter I^s. Logick, and Mai&s;ter B. tax|ing of it, we &s;hall con&s;ider of it, as occa&s;ion &s;hall be hereafter.</P>
<P>But for <HI>intemperate &s;peeches,</HI> neither is the charge ju&s;te nor doth it well be|&s;eeme him, who, as throughout his whole booke he doth &s;o cary him&s;elfe, that I I am verily per&s;waded, there is &s;carce any man that &s;hall have the patience to reade it out, but taking notice how full it is fraught with vile, virulent, ba&s;e, broade, &s;currilous, un&s;eemly and un&s;avoury language, he will ea&s;ily acknow|ledge with me, if he be not a bird of his owne feather, that he never met with a more down-right railer. So in his dealing here with Mai&s;ter B. though having before prote&s;ted again&s;t &s;uch cour&s;es, yet he cannot forbeare to ca&s;t out, if not &s;ome bitter taunts, and &s;atyricall &s;quibs &amp; &s;cofs, (which are &s;o over rife here, that they may well &s;eene to be but as words of cour&s;e with him) yet &s;ome lavi&s;h language or other at lea&s;t, almo&s;t in every page of his en&s;uing di&s;cour&s;e: and that not returning the &s;ame onely, where he pretendeth &s;ome &s;uch given, but there jerking it out, where no &s;hew or &s;hadow of &s;uch is before affoarded ei|ther to Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on or to the cau&s;e he maintaines.</P>
<P>Among much other &s;tuf of this kinde, let the Reader be plea&s;ed to take the&s;e
<PB N="7" REF="8"> few pa&s;&s;ages for a ta&s;t; that he may &s;ee the mans mode&s;ty, &amp; how well he performeth what before he profe&s;&s;ed, pag. 215. <HI>No man could pa&s;&s;e Mai&s;ter B. in ab&s;urdne&s;&s;e here.</HI> pag. 221. <HI>Any one may &s;ee by his worke, that he meant not to thy his con&s;cience short: but would make a litle bolde with it for the pre&s;ent. and, &s;o he might fetch over a &s;ore blow upon us he cared not, though with every &s;troake he made wounds through the &s;ides of his bretheren.</HI> Pag. 235. <HI>Hierome &s;peaketh of &s;ome who have th ir Syllogi&s;mes and argumentations, not in moode and figure, but in theire heels: Mai&s;ter B. is not much unlike tho&s;e, for wanting all proofe to make good the points that he boldly af|fi mes, he layeth about him with his heeles.</HI> Pag. 229. <HI>I de&s;ire the Rea|der to compare with this ba&s;e &s;tuf their former principles, and con&s;i|der whether there be not probable rea&s;ons to thinke, that he &s;inned here in fearefully again&s;t his knowledge and con&s;cience.</HI> I bid. <HI>If he had not meant meere gulling and mocking of the world he would not have taught men to holde this thing, and that what they would, without any rea&s;on or ground.</HI> Pag 227. <HI>The boldene&s;se of this man is notorious; that he dares in this manner &s;till daub up the vile things which his brethren pull downe with both hands.</HI> Pag. 223. <HI>I profe&s;se in all good con&s;cience, I never &s;aw to my remembrance &s;uch daubing in any Con|formi&s;ts: and to &s;ay trueth it is a great deale wor&s;e.</HI> Pag. 245. <HI>If this be not unrea&s;onable daubing, I know not what is.</HI> pag. 235. <HI>If the non-conformi&s;ts had &s;eene but halfe &s;uch rot<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">en &s;tuf in any Conformi&s;ts writings, they would have cryed out and that justly, daubing, daubing.</HI> Pag. 223 <HI>If M. A. had not boa&s;ted of this mans booke, I would not have touched it: becau&s;e I knew the bowells of it could not po&s;sibly be opened, but it would cau&s;e an ill &s;avour to &s;ome, in regard it contains mo&s;t vile and uncleane matter.</HI> Pag. 220. <HI>How much better had it beene, if this mi&s;shapen thing had had its mothers wombe for the grave or being brought out had been kept in &s;ome hole, or darke place, where it should never have &s;eene any light, nor any mans eye should ever have looked upon it then to &s;erve in this &s;ort, as it doth, namely to &s;trenghten the hands of the wicked, grieve the hearts of the righteous,
<PB N="8" REF="9"> and to di&s;cover their owne vile hating and double dealing.</HI></P>
<P>Thus of M^r. B^r. &amp; his writing he pratles, &amp; railes upon him at his plea|&s;ure. For as for tho&s;e ordinary flowers of his Rhetorick, that <HI>our minister, are bastardly mini&s;ters,</HI> and <HI>our ministery a ba&s;tard &amp; the childe of a whore,</HI> p. 219. <HI>our mini&s;ters the mo&s;t of them, loitering idle bellied Epicures, and &s;en&s;les ignorant A&s;&s;es,</HI> p. 214. &amp; p. 248. <HI>our &s;ervice idolatrous, our govern|ment Antichri&s;tian, our di&s;cipline diveli&s;h: a power taken every part of it from Antichrist &amp; the devil,</HI> p. 272. 220. 249. 256. the&s;e &amp; the like I let pa&s;&s;e, becau&s;e they are every where obvious, &amp; I doubt not but he deemeth his worke exceedingly graced with them; having to that purpo&s;e raked together a many of them from the writings of &s;ome intemperate &s;pirits like him&s;elfe; and added thereunto no &s;mall &s;tore of his owne invention: and they are indeed the principall ornaments wherewith his booke is throughout embel|li&s;hed.</P>
<P>Thirdly, among other particulars he chargeth him more &s;pecialy &amp; mo&s;t &s;pightfully, with <HI>much hypocri&s;y, in maintaining of points contrary to his owne judgement.</HI> And this the more to inforce he repeateth the charge thrice in one page, diduced to 3 heads, as 3. di&s;tinct enditements, though in effect &s;peaking nothing but one &amp; the &s;ame thing. p. 217. for,</P>
<P N="1">1. <HI>Although in the cour&s;e of his life</HI> (&s;aith he) <HI>he made &s;hew to be a great enemy to the Bi&s;hops, &amp; their traditions; yet now against us he stands to main|taine the vile&s;t abominations in theire Churches.</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. <HI>Such corruptions as the Non-conformists generaly have condemned, he ba&s;ely here ju&s;tifieth.</HI></P>
<P N="3">3. <HI>He &s;heweth greate hypocri&s;y in pleading for &s;uch evils, as &s;ome which knew him do wel know, that his judgement of them, at lea&s;t of many of them, was otherwi&s;e.</HI></P>
<P>And againe el&s;where p. 230. To <HI>hypocri&s;y</HI> adding <HI>impudency:</HI> &s;o that M^r. B^s. hypocri&s;y, belike, is &s;pun with no very fine thred, when it carieth im|pudency with in the forehead.</P>
<P><HI>None of the non Conformi&s;ts have more effectually condemned theire popi&s;h ceremonies, then this man&punc; for he hath by many Arguments prooved, that the u&s;e of them is very &s;inful&punc; notwith&s;tanding behold his forehead, how in his writing here again&s;t us, he &s;eeks by flattering &s;peeches to justify the verie practi&s;e, wich he profe&s;&s;eth in his writing against the Hierarchy to be unlawfull, idolatrous, Antichristian&punc; we abhorre this Hypocri&s;y.</HI></P>
<PB N="9" REF="9">
<P>In a charge of <HI>Here&s;ie,</HI> &s;aith Hierome, of <HI>hypocri&s;y,</HI> may I wel &s;ay,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Nol<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> in &s;u&s;pi|cion<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> haere&s;eos quenquam e&s;&s;e patientem Hieron. adv. etro<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">. Ioan. Hiero&s;ol.</NOTE> a man can hardly have patience: the cau&s;e being either his owne, or &s;ome others, that are or have been known to bee, not free onely, but far, from any &s;uch carri|age, as might give ju&s;t &s;u&s;pition of the &s;ame. This imputation therefore well de&s;erved to be &s;ingled, and to be cleered by it &s;elfe. The charge you have heard; take the defence along with it.</P>
<P>Fir&s;t therefore, true it is indeed, that Mai&s;ter B. <HI>pleades</HI> here for &s;undry things, that Mai&s;ter Can and his &s;chi&s;me condemne as <HI>evils, the &s;ub&s;tance of our Liturgy, the trueth of our ministery, the lawfullne&s;&s;e and warrantablene&s;&s;e of joyning with our Church-a&s;&s;emblies,</HI> and the like, the&s;e be the <HI>evils</HI> that Mai|&s;ter B. <HI>pleads for,</HI> But that M^r. B. was ever of a contrarie judgement, in the&s;e or any of tho&s;e t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="3 letters">gs that he pleads for, neither can Mai&s;ter Can proove, nor doth he offer once <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">prove; &s;ave by the report of &s;ome, <HI>who,</HI> he &s;aith, <HI>knew him, and doe well know it &s;o to bee</HI> Wherein he that chargeth Mai&s;ter B. with much hypocri&s;y, doth evidently evince him&s;elfe guilty of much want of charity, in fa&s;te|ning &s;o foule an imputation upon &s;o reverend and well-de&s;erving a &s;ervant of Chri&s;t, upon others bare reportes: for how can hee know, that they knew M^r. B^s. judgement therein to be &s;uch, but by their bare relations, onely? and why mentioneth he not in particular tho&s;e <HI>many things,</HI> or &s;ome of them at lea&s;t, concerning which the&s;e men (what ever they bee, if it bee not a meere figment of his owne brain) &s;ay, that he was of a clean contrary minde, to that that he hath here written. Such an accu&s;ation as this of &s;uch an one, ought to have been backt with better proofe, and &s;pecified at lea&s;t in &s;ome few particulars: though &s;ome few would not &s;uffice to make good the charge: but here is not any one produced of <HI>many.</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. For Mai&s;ter B^s. di&s;&s;enting from &s;ome other non-conformi&s;ts in &s;ome things, it is not to bee marveiled, if he &s;hould &s;o doe, the non-conformi&s;ts are men, I hope, &s;ubject to errour and ignorance, as well as others; and may there|fore, notwith&s;tanding their joynt con&s;ent in nonconformitie, in many particu|lars differ in judgement, as from others, &s;o among them&s;elves. Yea as among theire Separati&s;ts there is much variety of opinion, Mai&s;ter Robin&s;on and his company di&s;&s;enting from Mai&s;ter Can, and his crew; Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on and his, from Mai&s;ter Ain&s;worth and his, after their parting, Mai&s;ter Smith and his, be|fore, from them both: So it is well known, that there is and hath beene no &s;mall diver&s;ity of judgement betweene our non-conformi&s;ts among them&s;elves; &s;ome condemning &s;ome rites but allowing others, and &s;ome condemning tho&s;e al&s;o which tho&s;e others allow; &s;ome e&s;teeming the things &s;imply evill, in them|&s;elves,
<PB N="10" REF="10"> &s;ome onely as inexpedient, and in regard of &s;ome con&s;equences: &s;ome excepting again&s;t &s;ome pa&s;&s;ages in our Liturgy, which &s;ome other of them &s;tick not at, and the like. And indeed con&s;idering the wants &amp; weakene&s;&s;es that doe ordinarily attend mens apprehen&s;ions, and what variety of opinion by rea&s;on thereof men are &s;ubject unto, in &s;uch things as are not cleerely evi|dent of them&s;elves; for a multitude of men of divers parts, abilitys, di&s;po&s;iti|ons, and indowments, to concurre and agree all in every particular doubt or de|bate, que&s;tion, or controver&s;y, where a multitude of &s;uch is mooved, might ju&s;tly be deemed, rather a con&s;piracy, then an uniformity of judgement. In re|gard here of therefore, neither is Mai&s;ter B. nor any non-conformi&s;t bound to hold and defend what&s;oever &s;ome others of that &s;ide have &s;uppo&s;ed or maintai|ned, no more then the Separati&s;ts will be tyed on their par<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="3 letters"> the like. How|beit true it is indeed, that if Mai&s;ter B. &s;hould, as Mai&s;te<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> Can here chargeth him, ju&s;tify any &s;uch cour&s;e as <HI>the non-conformi&s;ts have generally condemned for a corruption,</HI> Mai&s;ter B. being one of that number him&s;elfe, mu&s;t of nece&s;&s;ity contradict him&s;elfe. But &s;etting Mai&s;ter B. him&s;elfe apart; that in this worke of his, he hath endevoured to ju&s;tify any one point or act, by all non-conformi&s;ts befide him&s;elfe cen&s;ured for &s;uch; and much more, that he hath <HI>ba&s;ely ju&s;tified &s;uch corruptions,</HI> (more then one or two belike, though no one is here in&s;tan|ced) as hath beene before &s;aid, is more then ever can bee prooved, and is there|fore a notorious calumny on Mai&s;ter Cans part.</P>
<P N="3">3. True it is indeed, that Mai&s;ter B. refu&s;ed conformity to &s;ome rites &amp; ceremonies impo&s;ed upon, and practi&s;ed u&s;ually in our Church a&s;&s;emblies; as e&s;teeming in his judgement the u&s;e of them evill and unlawfull, (though not gi|ving them &s;uch tearms, that I any where finde in his writings, as mai&s;ter Can here relateth) and had &s;uffered, and did &s;uffer &s;till in &s;ome &s;ort, at the very time when he writ this, yea even to his dying day, for his refu&s;all of the &s;ame. And is it probable then, that he that &s;uffered then for refu&s;all of tho&s;e things, &amp; was re&s;olved &s;till &s;o to doe, &s;hould yet at the &s;ame time write in the defence of the~? Or, that he, that was of &s;o tender a con&s;cience in regard of them, &s;hould yet &s;tand to maintaine things more vile and abominable then them, if ought at lea&s;t in our Churches be more vile and abominable in Mai&s;ter Cans eyes, then the&s;e are? But that Mai&s;ter B. in this worke of his doth maintaine the u&s;e of any of tho&s;e things as lawfull and warrantable, which in judgement he &s;o con|demned, (how&s;oever he defend the warrantablene&s;&s;e of communicating with them that doe u&s;e them, in the holy things of God) the booke it &s;elfe will &s;hew it to bee a mo&s;t &s;hameles lye, and yet againe, though he had therein maintained
<PB N="11" REF="10"> and ju&s;tifyed &s;ome of them, yet would not that have &s;erved Mai&s;ter Cans turne neither, to free him from guilt of &s;o foule an offence, unles he could make good (for Mai&s;ter Can will bee &s;ure to lay his charge large enough, how &s;cant &s;oever his proofes are) that he hath therein maintained contrary to his owne judge|ment, <HI>the vile&s;t abominations</HI> (you have his owne tearmes) <HI>that are in our Chur|ches.</HI> This over-reaching la&s;h therefore of Mai&s;ter Cans lavi&s;h tongue de&s;erves to bee refuted with the la&s;h of a whip rather, then with the da&s;h of a pen.</P>
<P>Fourthly he chargeth him, (therein playing fa&s;t and loo&s;e with us) and that again upon report, not with <HI>writing</HI> &s;o now, as his former charge was, but with <HI>fathering an others worke, contrarie to his owne judgement, to the maintaining of tho&s;e most vile abominations</HI> before &s;poken of. <HI>It is true,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>that report goes, and it is probable enough, that he was not the proper Author of it, but an other did it and got him to father it. Notwithstanding his evill is not the le&s;&s;e, if he should &s;uffer any one, as the A&s;&s;e did Balaam, to ride upon him for to cur&s;e the I&s;rael of God.</HI></P>
<P>For the better cleering of this, (which yet cro&s;&s;eth the former) it &s;hall not be ami&s;&s;e to in&s;ert here a word or two, concerning the occa&s;ion of Mai&s;ter B^s. both writing and publi&s;hing the worke, wee have now in hand.</P>
<P>Mai&s;ter B. &s;ometime at the reque&s;t of &s;ome friends was induced to a Con|ference with one Mai&s;ter Iack&s;on, a man led a&s;ide by &s;ome Separati&s;ts, but yet profe&s;&s;ing a willingne&s;&s;e to be informed of the trueth: at which conference my&s;elfe al&s;o among others was pre&s;ent. This conde&s;cended unto, M^r. Iack&s;on conceiving that no better grounds could bee produced to ju&s;tify and enforce a Separation, then tho&s;e of M^r. Iohn&s;on, contained in his booke of <HI>Rea&s;ons,</HI> new|ly then come abroad, referred him&s;elfe to them, and required liberty to pre&s;&s;e them, and that an&s;were might be given thereunto, or to what he might further produce in pur&s;uite of them. This was agreed upon, and in part performed, in the pre&s;ence of diver&s;e others al&s;o of either &s;ide; &amp; the objections &amp; an&s;weres &s;et downe all in writing, &s;ub&s;cribed to by either party. But after the fir&s;t dayes conference, wherein the weakene&s;&s;e and lamene&s;&s;e of &s;ome of Mai&s;ter Iohn|&s;ons Arguments were di&s;covered, and &s;ome palbable abu&s;es of Scriptures al|ledged by him evidently evinced, Mai&s;ter Iack&s;on di&s;&s;waded by &s;ome of that &s;ide, refu&s;ed to have any further conference in &s;uch manner, and &s;o the bu&s;ine&s;&s;e brake of. Howbeit Mai&s;ter B. con&s;idering mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons booke was relyed upon, and having, by this occa&s;ion, in part detected and laied open the naked|ne&s;&s;e thereof, he thought good to goe on in the &s;urvey of the whole; &amp; having propounded his paines therein taken to the peru&s;all of others, he was incited
<PB N="12" REF="11"> by them to make the worke more publick; which by M^r. Ame&s;es meanes was &s;ome good &s;pace of time after done.</P>
<P>For the di&s;cour&s;e it &s;elfe, though his name bee not to it, (and how is he char|ged then to father an other mans childe, that doth not &s;o farre agnize his own?) tho&s;e that have beene ver&s;ed in other of his workes, and acquainted with his methode and manner of writing, if they be not altogether &s;trangers to that kinde of skill, whereby the writings of Authors are di&s;cerned who&s;e they are&punc; will ea&s;ily de&s;crie it io be his owne, and no others.</P>
<P>As for M^r. Cans rhetoricall flouri&s;h of <HI>Balaam and his A&s;&s;e.</HI> Balaams A&s;&s;e was in &s;ome &s;ort better then he, for it &s;pake nothing but good rea&s;on: whereas he many times talkes as if he had neuer come, where Rea&s;on ruled or under|&s;tood not what it meant: that which if I make not evidently to appeare to any intelligent Reader, that hath perfect u&s;e of Rea&s;on, I will bee content, to take the a&s;&s;e from him to my &s;elfe: and I will joyn i&s;&s;ue with him herein, upon &s;ome of tho&s;e pa&s;&s;ages in the wi&s;e <HI>quaeres</HI> propounded by him in examination of the 6 Argument of M^r. Iohn&s;ons fir&s;t Rea&s;on pag. 226. And whether the imputa|tion of <HI>cur&s;ing Gods people,</HI> lye more ju&s;tly and de&s;ervedly upon M^r. B. or M^r. Can let any unpartiall man judge, that readeth the writings of either. Certain|ly in this kinde he &amp; his are wor&s;e not then Balaams a&s;&s;e, but then Balaam him|&s;elfe; for they doe that, that he never did nor dur&s;t doe.</P>
<P>Fiftly, <HI>upon report,</HI> (as he &s;peaketh; for M^r. Can you &s;ee, buildes all &s;till upon reports) he chargeth M^r. B. for <HI>one that of all the Non-conformi&s;ts, came nee|re&s;t to the Separation,</HI> pag. 227.</P>
<P>Whereas indeed the direct contrary rather may with good probability bee avowed, that not any one of them was in likelyhood farther from the Separa|tion, then <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e: that which appeared by his con&s;tant and earne&s;t endevour, both to with holde, and to withdraw from it, &s;uch as were either upon tearms of en|tring, or already entred thereinto: the &s;ame being al&s;o manife&s;ted, both by his &s;undry conferences by word of mouth with theire two greate&s;t Rabbies, M^r. Iohn&s;on and M^r. Ain&s;worth, and with other forward ones among them, as well in pri&s;on, as el&s;where; and by his writings, &s;ome publi&s;hed, as this again&s;t M^r. Iohn&s;on, and &s;ome to be &s;eene yet, though not publi&s;hed, again&s;t Smith, Elwi&s;e, Cliffon, and others of that faction. Yea &s;o far, was he from any &s;uch Schi&s;ma|ticall Separation, as the&s;e men practi&s;e, that he conver&s;ed as inwardly &amp; entire|ly with &s;ome of tho&s;e that differed from him for matter of conformity both in judgement and practi&s;e, as he did with any of tho&s;e that concurred with him therein. He had learned Chri&s;t better, then for difference of opinion in &s;uch
<PB N="13" REF="11"> points, to make <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="3 letters">i&s;mes and divi&s;ions, as their manner is, with all tho&s;e that doe not in all <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">ings concurre with them, and &s;ub&s;cribe to what they &s;ay: wit|ne&s;&s;e th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> notorious rents among the chief ringleaders of them, the two breth|ren <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">e Iohn&s;ons; and the one of them and M^r. Ain&s;worth, after they had beene <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ncked &s;o long together.</P>
<P>And thus much for the per&s;onall imputations and a&s;per&s;ions, that this Can hath ca&s;t, and endevoured to fa&s;ten, on him, who&s;e worke he hath here under|taken to confute: dealing therein, as bad pleaders are wont to doe, who having undertaken the defence of &s;ome ill cau&s;e, leave the matter, and fall foule on the party, by traducing of him hoping to prejudice his cau&s;e, which they cannot o|therwi&s;e well oppo&s;e.</P>
<P>Concerning which practi&s;e, heare we M^r. Cans owne cen&s;ure. <HI>This is</HI> (&s;aith he, pag. 211. <HI>to be ob&s;erved generally, that tho&s;e that &s;tand for bad cau&s;es doe after this &s;ort &s;till reproach their adver&s;aries.</HI> And again, 227. <HI>there is a</HI> <GAP DESC="foreign">, (wither it bee his or his printers Greeke, I know not,) <HI>of idle &s;coffing nece&s;&s;arily attending that pen, which undertakes the defence of &s;uch a cau&s;e.</HI> And by Mai|&s;ter Cans cariage herein, if you plea&s;e, let it, from his owne ground and grant, be deemed, what manner of cau&s;e it is, that he hath in this worke of his under|taken to defend.</P>
<P>For as for his charge upon M^r. B^s. manner of writing, wherein he taxeth him as <HI>most ab&s;urd,</HI> pag. 215. and <HI>confu&s;ed, not putting difference betweene things that are to be di&s;tinguished,</HI> pag. 236. <HI>Turning his tale &s;o oft foreward &amp; back|ward that a man knoweth not how to follow, nor where to have him.</HI> pag. 214. &amp; 225. <HI>&s;peaking non-&s;ence,</HI> pag. 226. and <HI>arguing in &s;uch &s;illy and childish words, as have in them neither rime nor Rea&s;on,</HI> pag. 229. <HI>by shifts and tricks putting quite by the matter in hand, and leaving things more ob&s;cure and darke then he found them,</HI> pag. 226. and 262. In di&s;cu&s;&s;ing of the particulars it will ea&s;ily ap|peare, how far he is from &s;uch defaults as the&s;e are: it being indeed a principall ornament, that God, among many other his excellent vertues, had endowed him withall, that he had a &s;ingular faculty in clearing and extricating of points ob|&s;cure and intricate: and reducing each thing to his proper place. And for the acknowledgement of his rare and allmo&s;t unmatched dexterity in that kinde, I could produce, if need were, the letters of &s;ome of eminent note in foraine parts, wherein they give an ample and extraordinary te&s;timony thereunto.<NOTE PLACE="marg">D. Lud. Capell, in Epi&s;t. Salm. dat. ad docti<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">. ornati&s;&s;. clari&s;|que virum D. S. Br. Nihil i<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> humanis &s;crip|tis dogmatic<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters"> <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">actenu<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> a me lect h e&s;t, quod tam vehemen|te<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> mi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">i pla|c<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">etit. ita do|cte, acute, pre&s;&s;e, &s;olide, ner<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">o&s;e, aperte, &s;i<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">l &amp; mira brevitate to|<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">um hoc argu|mentum com|prehen&s;um at|<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">e p<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">r tracta|t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="4 letters"> e&s;t.</NOTE> Yea for proofe hereof I need go no farther, then appeale to that exqui&s;ite <HI>treati&s;e</HI> of his concerning <HI>the ju&s;tification of a &s;inner before God.</HI> Of which one of tho&s;e before mentioned freely profe&s;&s;eth; That <HI>he never read any humane wri|ting
<PB N="14" REF="12"> of dogmaticall divinity, penned more learnedly, <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="3 letters">ely, clo&s;ely, &s;olidly, pithily, cleerely, fully and yet wonderous breefly.</HI> And let it th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters"> bee con&s;idered, how likely it is, that &s;uch a one as M^r. B. appeareth, and hath <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">ll approved him&s;elfe to be, &s;hould in this pre&s;ent argument deale &s;o <HI>darkely, ob&s;c<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="3 letters">ly, ab|&s;urdly, confu&s;edly, impertinently, unrea&s;onably, childishly, &s;elily, &s;en&s;le&s;ly,</HI> as <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">r&punc; Can chargeth him here to have done.</P>
<P>As for this man that thus chargerh him, how little he is acquainted either with the grounds of Logick, or Lawes of di&s;pute, will bee &s;ufficiently manife|&s;ted in the further proce&s;&s;e of this di&s;cour&s;e, and the examination of this his reply: before which I have thought good con&s;tantly to &s;et downe <HI>verbatim</HI> at full, both M^r. <HI>John&s;ons Rea&s;ons,</HI> and M^r. <HI>Bradshaws An&s;weres,</HI> becau&s;e the booke it &s;elfe is not &s;o commonly now had: and that, partly in regard of M^r. Brad&s;haw that both it may the more ea&s;ily be &s;eene, how fully he hath an&s;we|red M^r. Iohn&s;ons booke, leaving no part or pa&s;&s;age of his di&s;putes, demands, or objections unan&s;wered: and withall that it may upon exact view be di&s;|cried, whither it be &s;uch a mis&s;hapen mon&s;ter, as M^r. Can would make of it: and partly al&s;o in regard of M^r. Can, that it may thereby the better appeare, both how little of M^r. B^s. M^r. Can hath replied unto, and how well his <HI>Reply</HI> &s;uiteth with M^r. Brad&s;how <HI>An&s;weres</HI> in that little, to &s;peake of, unto which he hath replied.</P>
<P>Let the intelligent Reader, that de&s;ireth to be rightly enformed, be plea&s;ed to reade altogether, and compare one with an other, <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaws An&s;|were</HI> with <HI>Maister Iohn&s;ons Arguments, Mai&s;ter Cans Reply</HI> with <HI>Mai|ster Bradshaws An&s;were,</HI> and with <HI>Mai&s;ter Cans reply</HI> the pre&s;ent <HI>Rejoin|der:</HI> and then let him give &s;entence, as he &s;hall &s;ee cau&s;e, and judge, as he &s;hall finde the cau&s;e, upon due triall, to &s;tand betweene us and them.</P>
</DIV1>
</FRONT>
<BODY>
<DIV1 TYPE="text">
<PB N="15" REF="12">
<HEAD>The maine Conclu&s;ion of <HI>Maister John|&s;ons Rea&s;ons,</HI> as it is propounded by him&s;elfe.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>_It is not Lawfull to heare or have any &s;pirituall communion with the pre&s;ent Mini&s;tery of the Church-A&s;&s;emblies of England.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw.</HI></P>
<P>This he laboureth to proove, 1. by Rea&s;ons, as he fancieth, drawne from Scripture, and other te&s;timonies.</P>
<P N="2">2 By Arguments collected from the writings of them, whome he &s;tileth (in di&s;dain) <HI>forward preachers.</HI> And this he performeth, as farre as the remain|ders of his Logick skill will give him leave, in moode and figure. But the fi|gure for the mo&s;t part is of his owne &s;haping, &s;uch as never came forth of any Logick Schooles: yet &s;eeing the trueth he oppo&s;eth receiveth no di&s;advantage thereby, I can, for my owne part, bee content that his Syllogi&s;mes &s;till retaine tho&s;e formes and figures, that he hath put upon them, and &s;pare the labour of tran&s;lating them into new. And &s;o, without any further expence of words, I come to the examination of the fir&s;t &s;ort of Rea&s;ons.</P>
<P>In the&s;e words of M^r. B. M^r. Can ob&s;erveth <HI>nothing but &s;ome in&s;inuating flourishes,</HI> (as he &s;peakes) <HI>of his owne skill in Logick&punc; and great contempt put upon Mai&s;ter John&s;on for his unablenes therein;</HI> which he <HI>purpo&s;ely pa&s;&s;eth by.]</HI> But M^r. Can may doe well to con&s;ider, that it was ju&s;tly to be expected of M^r. Iohn&s;on pretending to draw all to Syllogi&s;ticall formes, contrary to the u&s;uall manner of tho&s;e of that &s;ide, who&s;e common fa&s;hion is, to fling out pamphlets full &s;tuft, either with furious invectives, or tedious di&s;cour&s;es, having neither head nor foote, but &s;o ju~bled together, that in a main heape of words a man can hardly finde any &s;hew or &s;hadow of Argument; that he &s;hould have beene ex|act and preci&s;e in tho&s;e his formes: and he might de&s;ervedly therefore be cen|&s;ured for his failings therein, unles it could be &s;hewed, that he had not therein failed.</P>
<P>The fir&s;t &s;ort of Rea&s;ons from Scripture and other Te&s;timonies.</P>
<DIV2 TYPE="part">
<PB N="16" REF="13">
<DIV3 N="1" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The fir&s;t Rea&s;on.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr I.</HI></P>
<P>All are bound in the wor&s;hip of God, to heare and communicate onely with that mini&s;tery, which Chri&s;t hath given and &s;et in his Church for that worke.</P>
<P>But the pre&s;ent mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblies of England is not that, which Chri&s;t hath given and &s;et in his Church for the worke of the mini&s;terie.</P>
<P>Therefore it is not Lawfull for any in the wor&s;hip of God, to heare or com|municate with the pre&s;ent, mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblies of England.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>Not to contend about the propo&s;ition: I deny the A&s;&s;umption: and affirme, that the mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblies (how&s;oever it may in &s;ome parti|cular parts of the execution, happily be defective in &s;ome places) is, for the &s;ub|&s;tance thereof, that very &s;ame mini&s;tery, which Chri&s;t hath &s;et in his Church for the worke of his mini&s;tery, whether it bee the mini&s;tery of tho&s;e which he cal|leth the <HI>forward preachers,</HI> or of tho&s;e, which being qualified according to the true intent of the Law, doe &s;ub&s;cribe and conforme according to the Lawes of the State.</P>
<P>Hereunto Mai&s;ter Can, de&s;irous to pick out &s;omewhat to cavill at, thus re|plieth.</P>
<P N="1">1. He <HI>marvells, why Maister Bradshaw should &s;ay, that Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on &s;tiled them forward preaches in di&s;dain?</HI> and accu&s;eth him of <HI>breach of charity</HI> therein: <HI>&s;ince that he knew not Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons heart,</HI> affirming withall <HI>on his knowledge, that it is a tearme commonly given and taken of them acceptably in good part.]</HI> But for Mai&s;ter Cans <HI>knowledge</HI> what ever it be, to &s;ay nothing of his charity, his con&s;cience by this worke of his is &s;o well knowne, that his cre|dite is very meane, either in this cau&s;e, or any other. It is well knowne, that the phra&s;e is u&s;ually taken as a flout; and may the rather be &s;o taken from the mouths and pens of &s;uch, as &s;o deeme of them as Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on and Mai&s;ter Can doe.</P>
<P N="2">2. He de&s;ireth to be informed, <HI>what Lawes are here meant; and what the intent of tho&s;e Lawes is: and whether all bee &s;o qualified or no.]</HI> To all which in a word it is &s;ufficient to an&s;were, that they who have proclaimed a Separa|tion from All our Church-a&s;&s;emblies, and by the&s;e and the like arguments en|devour to enforce a nece&s;&s;ity of the &s;ame, mu&s;t make that they produce in ju&s;ti|fication
<PB N="17" REF="13"> thereof, good in the generall: and if any &s;hall be plea&s;ed to point out &s;ome to them, again&s;t whome they are lea&s;t able to make any colourable Ex|ception, that is more then they need doe, they that have undertaken to proove the Generall Separation, mu&s;t make theire proofes for it as generall.</P>
<P>As for the <HI>Law meant</HI> I might well turn him over to his brother Iohn&s;on, to demand of him, what Lawes he meant or &s;peakes of in the proofe of the propo|&s;ition of the next &s;yllogi&s;me but one: or to the Booke of Ordination, that he hath in a manner tran&s;cribed in pro&s;ecution of the propo&s;ition of the fir&s;t Argu|ment of his 2 Rea&s;on. But, for fuller &s;ati&s;faction both concerning the Laws and the true intent of them, I referre him to the <HI>Ab&s;tract;</HI> a booke which by his quo|tation of it el&s;where, I pre&s;ume him to be well acquainted with.</P>
<P N="3">3. He bids <HI>ob&s;erve the vanity of Mai&s;ter Bradshaws &s;peech: Theire mi|nisters are true ministers if they be,</HI> &amp;c. <HI>which is,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>as if a known harlot should &s;ay, I am hone&s;t, if I am qualified according to the word of God.</HI></P>
<P>Surely this man, it &s;eemeth, hath got a harlots forehead; he hath no &s;hame at all what he &s;aith. For where doth M^r. B. &s;ay, that <HI>our mini&s;ters are true mini|&s;ters, if they be qualified according to the word of God?</HI> which unles M^r. Brad|&s;haw &s;ay, M^r. Can &s;aith he cares not what: &s;uppo&s;ing that with an <HI>Et caetera,</HI> he might make his Reader, not having M^r. Brad&s;haws booke by him, beleeve that M^r. Brad&s;haw had &s;ayed &s;o much. Yea where doth he &s;ay, that <HI>they are true mi|ni&s;ters, If they be qualified according to the true intent of the Law?</HI> as if he &s;pake by an <HI>hypothe&s;is,</HI> that putteth nothing in <HI>E&s;&s;e.</HI> He &s;aith onely, that <HI>the mini&s;tery not of forward preachers onely,</HI> as M^r. Iohn&s;on tearmes them, thereby meaning the non-conformi&s;ts, <HI>but even of tho&s;e al&s;o that conforme and &s;ub&s;cribe, &s;o many of them,</HI> at lea&s;t, <HI>as are &s;o qualified, as the Law entendeth they should be:</HI> pre&s;u|ming that &s;undry &s;uch are as well of the one &s;ort as of the other; and under&s;tan|ding thereby men of competent ability of gifts, and of hone&s;t cour&s;e of life, (for both the&s;e our Lawes, as the Author above mentioned &s;heweth, require in them) and that many &s;uch are in mo&s;t parts with us, is &s;o manife&s;t, that the devill him|&s;elfe (what&s;oever M^r. Can may doe) I &s;uppo&s;e, dur&s;t not deny it. But let hereby not the vanity onely, but the con&s;cience of the man, and his &s;quare dealing ap|peare, that hereafter he be tried before he be tru&s;ted.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The mini&s;tery which Chri&s;t hath given and &s;et in his Church, is of Apo&s;tles, Prophets, Evangeli&s;ts, Pa&s;tors and Teachers &s;poken of Eph. 4.11.12.</P>
<P>But the pre&s;ent mini&s;tery of the Church of England is none of the&s;e &s;poken of Eph. 4.11, 12.</P>
<PB N="18" REF="14">
<P>Therefore it is not the mini&s;tery, which Chri&s;t hath given and &s;et in his Church.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Brads<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">aw.</HI></P>
<P>The pre&s;ent mini&s;tery of the Church of England (i. of the Church-A&s;&s;em|blies of England) is the mini&s;tery of Pa&s;tors and Teachers.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The pre&s;ent mini&s;tery of the Church of England is of Prelates, Prie&s;ts, and Deacons.</P>
<P>But neither Prelates, Prie&s;ts, nor Deacons of that Church are Pa&s;tors and Teachers &s;poken of Eph. 4.11, 12.</P>
<P>Therefore it is none of tho&s;e &s;poken of Eph. 4.11, 12.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>I denie both propo&s;ition and a&s;&s;umption. For 1. Tho' our Prelates doe &s;ometimes voluntarily and occa&s;ionally performe the &s;ame worke and &s;ervice in &s;ome of our Church-a&s;&s;emblies, which our ordinarie mini&s;ters doe, yet their Prelaticall or Epi&s;copall office or mini&s;tery con&s;i&s;ts in over&s;eeing the mini&s;ters and mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblies.</P>
<P>Here the propo&s;ition being, as you &s;ee thus denyed, Mai&s;ter Can tells us that M^r. B. <HI>mi&s;takes Maister Iohn&s;ons words; for he &s;aith not, that the Prelates are mini&s;ters of the Church-a&s;&s;emblies, but of the Church of England.</HI></P>
<P>But Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw mi&s;takes not Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons words, but Mai&s;ter Can mi&s;takes the matter in hand, and Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on if he &s;peake other wi&s;e, goeth from the matter. For if Mai&s;ter Can plea&s;e but to looke backe to the a&s;&s;umption of the fir&s;t &s;yllogi&s;me, he &s;hall finde that it ought to bee &s;o concei|ved, or el&s;e it &s;peakes not to the purpo&s;e; and this exception therefore is frivo|lous. Yet he telleth us with all that <HI>he can proove, if neede were, that the Pre|lates are the ministers of the Church-a&s;&s;emblies.</HI> But belike it needed not; and therefore he letteth it alone, and &s;o leaveth Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons propo&s;ition to &s;hift for it &s;elfe.</P>
<P N="2">2. He &s;aith, that <HI>if the mini&s;tery of the Prelates bee not the proper ministery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblies, then is the &s;ame Antichri&s;tian;</HI> and tells us, <HI>he hath formerly prooved &s;o much from their owne principles.]</HI> But what is this to the confirmation of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons propo&s;ition? he may finde him&s;elfe worke
<PB N="19" REF="14"> that will follow his wilde-goo&s;e race. Let others doe that, if they will.</P>
<P>La&s;tly he &s;aith, Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw <HI>should have prooved, that authority and power that the Law giveth the Prelates, to be Lawfull.</HI> Did this man, thinke wee, ever learne, what belongeth to Logick, or methode, or Laws of di&s;pute, that putteth the an&s;werer to prove, and requireth him to proove that which nothing concerneth the pre&s;ent argument? who is &s;o &s;illy, as not to &s;ee the folly of this argument: <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaw hath not prooved the Prelates power to be Law|full. Therefore Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons propo&s;ition &s;tandeth firme; or</HI> M^r. <HI>Brad|shaw ought not to deny it.</HI></P>
<P>But <HI>he &s;eeth not what rea&s;on Mai&s;ter Bradshaw had to mention it.</HI> Mu&s;t M^r. Brad&s;haw needs both give an an&s;were, and finde Mai&s;ter Can either eyes to &s;ee what he an&s;wereth to, or to conceave the rea&s;on, why he &s;o an&s;weres. If he had con&s;idered what Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons propo&s;ition was or ought to be, to wit, <HI>The pre&s;ent ministery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblies of England, is the mini&s;tery of Prelates, &amp;c.</HI> he might &s;oone have &s;eene <HI>what rea&s;on Maister Bradshaw had to mention them.</HI> He whome he an&s;wereth to, had &s;o done before him; and he was to make an&s;were to what he had propounded: which is done here by de|niall.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="2">2, Tho' &s;ometimes our mini&s;ters be called <HI>Priests</HI> and <HI>Deacons,</HI> yet the <HI>ministery</HI> under tho&s;e names a&s;&s;igned to them, and which they exerci&s;e, is not the proper and e&s;&s;entiall mini&s;tery of either <HI>Prie&s;ts</HI> or <HI>Deacons,</HI> but of <HI>Pa&s;tors</HI> and <HI>Teachers.</HI> So that they are onely in equivocation and name, or metaphori|cally, Prie&s;ts and Deacons; but really Pa&s;tors and Teachers: and therefore &s;uch Prie&s;ts and Deacons may be, and in deed and truth are &s;uch Pa&s;tors and Tea|chers as are &s;poken of Eph. 4.11, 12.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption being by Mai&s;ter Brad&s;how thus denied, Mai&s;ter Can re|plieth:</P>
<P N="1">1. By bare contradiction of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws deniall.</P>
<P N="2">2. By <HI>noting his lightnes and inconstancy,</HI> as he &s;aith, <HI>&s;tanding one while for the ju&s;tification of all our ministers as here, other while defending tho&s;e onely that are qualifyed by Law,</HI> &amp;c.] Which exception of his is idle, as hath beene before &s;hewed. For what&s;oever his an&s;were is, theire proofes ought to be ge|nerall; theire &s;eparation intended to be prooved Lawfull, yea and nece&s;&s;ary, being &s;uch.</P>
<P>Be&s;ides Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;aith no more here (his an&s;were con&s;idered as it
<PB N="20" REF="15"> hath reference to Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons a&s;&s;umption) but that notwith&s;tanding the name of Prie&s;ts and Deacons, tho&s;e that are &s;o &s;tiled, yet may and doe exerci&s;e &s;uch a mini&s;tery as the Apo&s;tle there &s;peaketh of; and the mini&s;tery exerci&s;ed, to wit, by &s;uch as doe exerci&s;e the &s;ame, is &s;uch a mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>Whereby al&s;o may appeare the frivolou&s;nes of that he addeth: to wit, that <HI>it is untruely affirmed, that theire Priests and Deacons doe exerci&s;e the proper &amp; e&s;&s;entiall mini&s;tery of pa&s;tors and teachers.</HI> Which to proove he alledgeth out of &s;ome broad-mouthed writers, that <HI>they are mo&s;t of them idle-bellyd Epicures, &s;en&s;eles a&s;&s;es, and &s;uch as can not preach: that our Deacons are not by Law to ad|mini&s;ter the Sacraments, nor the full-prie&s;ts, but according to a popish Liturgy: yea that none of them may, nor doe exerci&s;e Church-government, which is an e&s;|&s;entiall and proper part of their mini&s;tery.</HI></P>
<P>To which I an&s;were.</P>
<P N="1">1. Tho' all this were pa&s;&s;ed over, and no notice taken of M^r. Cans new ex|ceptions, yet were M^r. B^s. an&s;were no way prejudiced thereby, nor prooved in|&s;ufficient to M^r. I<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">hn&s;ons argument, which alone he was to an&s;were.</P>
<P N="2">2. To let pa&s;&s;e that, as a peece of M^r. Cans Rhetorick, that he &s;tileth our forme of admini&s;tring the Sacraments <HI>a popish Liturgy;</HI> the controver&s;y that may be of a&s;&s;igning men principally for &s;ome time to the execution of &s;ome part of the mini&s;tery; the di&s;pute of the nece&s;&s;ity of &s;uch Church-goverment, as the&s;e men fancy to them&s;elves; the exception to &s;uch Church-goverment de|nyed by Law to the mini&s;ters of the Church-a&s;&s;emblies; the gro&s;&s;e and palpable fal&s;hood of theire a&s;&s;ertion, what ever they were, that affirme the mo&s;t of our mini&s;ters to be &s;uch as he &s;aith: &s;uppo&s;e they were &s;o, what is all this to M^r. I^s. argument, that therefore the mini&s;ters of the Church-a&s;&s;emblies of England are not the pa&s;tors and teachers S^t. Paul &s;peaketh of, becau&s;e they are &s;tiled Prie&s;ts and Deacons. For unle&s;&s;e he can proove that therefore they are &s;uch <HI>idle-bel|lyed Epicures &s;en&s;les A&s;&s;es and unable to preach,</HI> becau&s;e they are &s;tiled Prie&s;ts and Deacons, M^r. I^s. argument remaineth &s;till of as little force as ever it was; for ought that Mai&s;ter Can here &s;aith; that is, in truth, of ju&s;t none at all.</P>
<P>But let us &s;ee whether M^r. Iohn&s;on him&s;elfe have brought &s;tronger matter to confirme the denyed axiomes, or no. His propo&s;ition he thus prooveth.</P>
<P><HI>Fr Ihon&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The propo&s;ition is manife&s;t.</P>
<P N="1">1. The Laws of that Church admitteth no other mini&s;tery, but that of their prelacy, prie&s;thood and Deaconry, receaved among&s;t them&s;elves, or from the papi&s;tes.</P>
<P N="2"><PB N="21" REF="15">2 Their con&s;titution is &s;uch, as all the mini&s;ters of that Church mu&s;t be Prie&s;ts or Deacons, &amp; the&s;e al&s;o either in a &s;uperior degree, as the Prelates, Arch-Bi|&s;hops, Suffraganes, &amp;c. or in an inferiour, as par&s;ons, vicars, &s;tipendarys, chaplins.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. It is not nece&s;&s;ary that the mini&s;tery of a country or nation &s;hould be alwayes &s;uch, as the Law e&s;tabli&s;heth or admitteth. The mini&s;tery (at lea&s;t in &s;ome places) may be good though the Law in generall &s;hould admit and e&s;ta|bli&s;h &s;uch a one as is bad: as on the contrary &s;ide, the mini&s;tery may at &s;ome times, and in &s;ome cau&s;e be bad, though the Laws admit and e&s;tabli&s;h never &s;o good. For the governers of Churches &amp; Commonwealths, who have the di&s;pen|&s;ation of Laws, may in their Chri&s;tian wi&s;edome &amp; moderation permit a mini|&s;tery in &s;undry re&s;pects different from that which the Lawes require: yea &amp; our own governers in fact have permitted the mini&s;tery of &s;ome, who never recea|ved ordination, either from papi&s;ts or them&s;elves: &amp; he can not be ignorant, but that &s;ome by connivency are yet &s;uffered in &s;ome points of theire mini&s;tery to &s;werve from &s;ome ob&s;ervances which the Laws require. The argument there|fore will not follow from the quality of the mini&s;tery, except he can proove that our mini&s;tery is in all our a&s;&s;emblies, in all re&s;pects a~&s;werable to our Laws.</P>
<P>Here there is indeed an evident eviction of the weakne&s;&s;e of M^r. I^s. proofe: But what &s;aith M^r. Can to it? he good mode&s;t man, that <HI>holdeth it no Chri&s;tian office to render rebuke for rebuke, &amp; holdeth it better a thou&s;and times to &s;u&s;tain even a legion of reproaches, then by returning tho' but one, to give cau&s;e of &s;u&s;pi|tion that evill hath got &s;ome part of conquest in him.</HI> Yet he can not holde any longer but as a ve&s;&s;ell full of new wine, that will bur&s;t if it want vent, breaketh out in plaine termes and telleth us; that <HI>no man could ever pa&s;&s;e this man here in ab&s;urdenes, and there is neither wit nor truth in that he &s;aith.</HI> And his rea&s;ons for&s;ooth: 1. <HI>Our que&s;tion,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>is not of what should or may be in a land; but of that which we know is by Law e&s;tablished and practi&s;ed accordingly.</HI></P>
<P>But the que&s;tion, M^r. Can, is (if you know what you are or &s;hould be about, to wit, the defence of M^r. Iohn&s;ons arguments, &amp; the di&s;covery of the invalidity of the an&s;weres thereunto,) whether this be a &s;ound argument: <HI>The Law ad|mitts no mini&s;tery, but &s;uch and &s;uch. Ergo the mini&s;tery of all the Church-a&s;|&s;emblys in England, is &s;uch as the Law onely admitts.</HI> Which is plainely &s;hewed to be un&s;ound, becau&s;e <HI>the mini&s;tery is not nece&s;&s;arily allwayes &s;uch as the Laws of a State onely admitt.</HI> That which in due cour&s;e of rea&s;on doth nece&s;|&s;arily evince the weakenes of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons con&s;equence, as Mai|&s;ter Can him&s;elfe, if he under&s;tand rea&s;on, can not deny. The que&s;tion
<PB N="22" REF="16"> therefore is, what may be in a land, notwith&s;tanding the Laws of the Land. And what&s;oever Mai&s;ter Can and his companions know to be either by Law with us e&s;tabli&s;hed, or accordingly practi&s;ed, is nothing to the propo&s;ition now pre&s;ent in que&s;tion.</P>
<P N="2">2. <HI>He cannot believe that any &s;uch as Mai&s;ter Bradshaw &s;peaketh of were by the Prelates ever permitted: yea he is per&s;waded that he could never proove it.</HI></P>
<P>And I beleeve Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw had good ground for that he &s;aid, and was able to make good proofe of it. Nor doe I doubt but in&s;tance might ea&s;ily be given therein, if need were. But Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws credite is, I &s;uppo&s;e as good as Mai&s;ter Cans: &amp; upon theire two credits, or the a&s;&s;ertion of the one, and the conterper&s;ua&s;ion of the other, let the bu&s;ines it &s;elfe re&s;t. Yet let me adde that Mai&s;ter Can him&s;elfe herein confe&s;&s;eth: <HI>It may be that &s;ome one or two might &s;ecretly pas in &s;uch &s;ort;</HI> unknowne: I &s;uppo&s;e, he meaneth, to the Prelates; which is &s;ufficient to cut the &s;inewes of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons argument, which he undertaketh here to defend; and to proove the rea&s;on from the mini|&s;tery by the Law onely admitted, to the mini&s;tery exerci&s;ed and executed, not to be generally &s;ound.</P>
<P N="3">3. <HI>For &s;uppo&s;e,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>a Prelate should for love or money per|mit the mini&s;tery,</HI> &amp;c. <HI>doth it follow therefore that the mini&s;tery of that Church is any other, but of theire prelacy priesthood or deaconry, as Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on &s;aith? For what if &s;ome have as much permi&s;sion under the papacy is not theire mini&s;tery then of prelacy, prie&s;thood &amp; deaconry? indeed &s;o Mai&s;ter Bradshaw did inferre, but with what witt or truth, let the Reader judge.</HI></P>
<P>Now this is brought to pr<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ove, (and therefore after that his bold-bayardly cen&s;ure, vizt. <HI>No man, I thinke, could pas him in ab&s;urdnes here,</HI> it hath a <HI>For</HI> fixed before it) that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw is the ab&s;urde&s;t man that ever was. But I &s;uppo&s;e, any indifferent Reader, and advi&s;ed compater of both theire wri|tings together, will &s;oone &s;ee and &s;ay, that Mai&s;ter Can is one of the triflinge&s;t fellows, that ever put pen to paper. For uppo&s;e a Prelate &s;hould permit the mini&s;tery of &s;ome, that never receaved ordination from either Papi&s;ts or them|&s;elves (for that is it, that Mai&s;ter Cans, &amp;c. &s;hould have expre&s;&s;ed) doth it not nece&s;&s;arily hence follow, that the mini&s;tery of &s;uch may be other then that which the Law onely admitteth, and con&s;equently the mini&s;tery of neither Prelates, Prie&s;ts nor Deacons; it being pre&s;umed that the Law admitteth no
<PB N="23" REF="16"> other mini&s;tery, than the mini&s;tery of &s;uch? yea for permi&s;&s;ion under the papa|cy (though Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;peaketh nothing of any permi&s;&s;ion under them, nor doth inferre ought at all thence, much les ought without wit or truth, which is therefore Mai&s;ter Cans owne gro&s;&s;e &amp; manife&s;t untruth) but &s;uppo&s;e under the papacy &s;ome &s;hould have permi&s;&s;ion to exerci&s;e a mini&s;tery not receaved from them, would it not thence follow, that the mini&s;tery of &s;uch were other then their Law alloweth, and not nece&s;&s;arily the mini&s;tery of either Prelates, Prie&s;ts or Deacons? But this man &s;till forgetteth him&s;elfe where he is, and in|deed put out of the way a little by his brother Iohn&s;ons Sophi&s;try, not carefull to keepe him&s;elfe to the tearmes of the que&s;tion, &amp; to put in as he &s;hould have done, in his former argument, <HI>the mini&s;tery of the Church a&s;&s;emblies of England,</HI> &s;uppo&s;eth, that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;hould rea&s;on on this manner.</P>
<P><HI>Some are or have beene permitted to exerci&s;e their ministery, who never receaved it from the Prelates. Therefore the mini&s;tery of the Church of England, con&s;i&s;teth not of Prelates, Prie&s;ts and Deacons.</HI> Which being not Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws ar|gument, but the fruite of his owne idle brain, if there be any &s;uch gro&s;&s;e ab&s;ur|dity in it, as he &s;aith, he may well take it to him&s;elfe.</P>
<P N="4">4. <HI>He tells us, a man may be an unlawfull mini&s;ter, though he never receaved the Bishops ordination, as when he runs of his owne head, and not elected, called and ordained by the free &amp; common com|&s;ent of a true Church; and &s;uch were tho&s;e as Mai&s;ter Bradshaw &s;pea|keth of if he &s;peake truth.</HI></P>
<P>To let pa&s;&s;e his unchri&s;tian cen&s;ure of &s;uch as he profe&s;&s;eth him&s;elfe altoge|ther ignorant of, and cannot therefore know either by whome or in what man|ner they were elected, called and ordained, and yet pa&s;&s;eth &s;uch a peremtory &s;entence upon them, therein verifying the common proverb, that <HI>a fooles bolt is &s;oone shot.</HI> Whether they were Lawfull mini&s;ters or no, the in&s;tance granted is &s;ufficient to proove (if he that taxeth others for want of wit, had wit enough to conceave it) that the mini&s;tery of &s;ome may be other then by the Law is alone allowed.</P>
<P N="5">5. As little therefore to the purpo&s;e is that which he addeth, that <HI>though &s;ome doe &s;werve from &s;ome ob&s;ervances, yet theire calling is not there|fore more true and Lawfull: as Monkes and Friers, though they keepe not all their rules and orders, yet are &s;till the Divels and the Popes Of|ficers; even &s;o,</HI> &amp;c.] And who, but an idle cocks-combe like him&s;elfe, would ever frame any &s;uch argument? or doth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw make any &s;uch infe|rence?
<PB N="24" REF="17"> onely he thence inferreth, that a mini&s;tery may be other then the Law of a place, where it is exerci&s;ed, alloweth. And Mai&s;ter Can therefore may keepe &s;uch divels Officers, as he tearmes them, to him&s;elfe and his, if he plea&s;e.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. The <HI>Priesthood</HI> which the Law admitteth, is not called <HI>Sacerdotium,</HI> but <HI>Presbyteratus;</HI> and the <HI>Prie&s;ts</HI> are not called <HI>&s;acerdotes</HI> or &s;acrificers, but <HI>presbyters,</HI> (as &s;ufficiently appeares by our orders in Latine.) therefore the Law doth not intend any true or proper Prie&s;thood, but onely borroweth the name to expre&s;&s;e an office of an other kinde.</P>
<P>This is that indeed, which Mai&s;ter Iack&s;on before mentioned would not be|leeve, untill he was &s;hewed &s;ome letters of orders, whereby the &s;ame evidently appeared.</P>
<P>Now to this Mai&s;ter Can replieth, that <HI>tho' our Law intend not &s;uch a proper Priesthood, as was in the Iewish Church, nor as is in all re&s;pects now under the Romish bea&s;t, yet this helps nothing theire cau&s;e, &s;eing it e&s;tablisheth &s;uch a ministery, as by theire owne confe&s;sion is directly again&s;t the word of God.</HI></P>
<P>You &s;ee, grant this man the maine conclu&s;ion in controver&s;y, and hee needs no more, he will cary all hand &s;mooth afore him. Whether this helpe our cau&s;e or no, is not materiall for the pre&s;ent. Sure it taketh of the edge of M^r. Iohn|&s;ons argument: and yet I thinke that helpeth us not a little, that di&s;ableth any dart thrown again&s;t us by &s;o great a Golias as M^r. Iohn&s;on was among them generally e&s;teemed, before the &s;chi&s;me broke out betweene Mai&s;ter A^s. &amp; him, from either touching us or doing us any damage.</P>
<P>For if our <HI>prie&s;thood</HI> be but <HI>presbyteratus,</HI> and our <HI>prie&s;ts</HI> no other then <HI>pre&s;|byters;</HI> &s;ure the argument, who&s;e whole weight lieth on the very tearme it &s;elfe, therefore denying our Mini&s;tery to the mini&s;tery of Pa&s;tors &amp; Teachers &s;po|ken of by Saint Paul, becau&s;e it is a mini&s;tery of presbyters; when as the&s;e very pa&s;tors and teachers &s;poken of by Saint Paul were no other then <HI>presbyters,</HI> as appeareth Tit. 3.5. and 1. Tim. 5.17. is a mo&s;t frivolous and ridiculous rea&s;on.</P>
<P><HI>W. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="3">3. To be <HI>Par&s;ons, Vicars, Stipendarys, Chaplins,</HI> &amp;c. is not to have a divers kinde of Prie&s;thood or Deaconry, or mini&s;tery (as he fooli&s;hly conceiteth:) On|ly variety of titles is given to the &s;ame kinde of mini&s;tery, in diver&s;e per&s;ons, in
<PB N="25" REF="17"> re&s;pect onely of a divers kinde of maintenance or dependance. For <HI>par&s;ons</HI> are &s;uch as have all tithes in kinde; <HI>Vicars</HI> &s;uch, as have onely the &s;maller tithes, the other being impropriated by the magi&s;trate for other purpo&s;es: <HI>Stipendarys</HI> are &s;uch as are maintained by the voluntary contribution of theire Churches, or by &s;ome &s;uch like meanes: <HI>Chaplins</HI> are &s;uch as depend upon great men. The mini&s;tery of all, which (if they duly execute the &s;ame) is one and the &s;ame, even that (and no other for &s;tub&s;tance) which is proper to true Pa&s;tors and Tea|chers.</P>
<P>To this Mai&s;ter Can replieth 1. <HI>that he hath prooved from the writings</HI> (of I know not whome, and whome neither I nor Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw have here any thing to doe with) <HI>that the&s;e names and offices came wholly from the Devill and Antichri&s;t:</HI> and that <HI>Maister Bradshaw pleadeth for Baal, and telleth a tale, that neither helpeth him nor hurteth them:</HI> and withall tells him what <HI>he should have done,</HI> if he would have Mai&s;ter Can of his coun&s;ell; vizt. <HI>have manife&s;ted, that his brethren have notoriou&s;ly &s;landered our mini&s;tery, and &s;o have taken quite away theire Rea&s;ons.]</HI> So it &s;eemes in Mai&s;ter Cans judgement, that M^r. Iohn&s;ons arguments, without better rea&s;ons, that have ben brought by other of our owne, are of no validity to evince the point in controver&s;y; and that there|fore it neither helpeth us, nor hurterh them, whether his arguments &s;tand or fall. Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw had here to doe onely with him; and becau&s;e he hath &s;o well warded all the blows that he reacheth at us; Mai&s;ter Can would have him to let him alone, whome he had undertaken to deale with, and &s;et him&s;elfe again&s;t &s;ome other.</P>
<P N="2">2. He &s;aith, <HI>his conclu&s;ion is pittifull, in regard of tho&s;e words,</HI> if they duly execute the &s;ame. Not without ju&s;t cau&s;e in&s;erted by Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, be|cau&s;e a man may have the office of a pa&s;tor, and not execute it duly, and &s;o make his mini&s;tery the more que&s;tionable.] But I may well &s;ay, he is a pittyfull replier, that leaveth the argument he undertaketh to maintaine, to &s;inke or &s;wim, as it will it &s;elfe, running out the while&s;t into wilde vagarys, that no|thing concerne it.</P>
<P>And hitherto of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws an&s;were to Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons propo&s;i|tion of his &s;econd pro&s;yllogi&s;me, with his proofes of it: in replie whereunto M^r. Can hath canted much in his Schi&s;maticall language; but not given us any one word that maketh to the purpo&s;e.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption, wherein the weight of the argument mo&s;t re&s;teth, is by Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on backed with 7. &s;everall arguments; that among &s;uch variety &s;ome one at lea&s;t may make all &s;ure.] The fir&s;t of them is this.</P>
<PB N="26" REF="18">
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The pa&s;tors and teachers &s;poken of Eph. 4.11. have theire offices, callings, admini&s;trations and maintenance ordained by Chri&s;t in his Te&s;tament Eph. 4.8, 11, 12. Rom. 12.7, 8. Act. 14.23. &amp; 20.17, 28. Hebr. 5.4. Col. 4.17. 1. The&s;. 5.12, 13, 14. 1. Petr. 5.1, 2, 3. Rev. 2. &amp; 3. &amp; 22.18. 1. Cor. 14.1. &amp; 5.4. and 9.14. &amp; 11.23. &amp; 12.28. Gal. 6.6.</P>
<P>But the Prelates, Prie&s;ts and Deacons of the Church of England have not their offices, calling, mini&s;tration and maintenance ordained by Chri&s;t in his Te|&s;tament.</P>
<P>Ergo, they are not the pa&s;tors and teachers &s;poken of Eph. 4.11.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. The propo&s;ition is not true, except he under&s;tand by offices, callings &amp; admini&s;tration, the &s;ub&s;tantiall or e&s;&s;entiall parts thereof. Otherwi&s;e tho&s;e very pa&s;tors and teachers there &s;poken of, may have divers acce&s;&s;ary parts of theire offices, callings and admini&s;tration not ordained by Chri&s;t in the New Te&s;ta|ment.</P>
<P>Neither is it true, if by maintenance he meane any &s;peciall kinde of mainte|nance. It is to be granted in generall; that mini&s;ters are to have &s;ufficient main|tenance, and the texts alleadged for that, proove no more; and therefore that which they proove is nothing to the purpo&s;e. As litle to the purpo&s;e are the o|ther tents: for it will not follow from any force in them, but that there may be &s;undry accidents cleaving as parts to the office, calling and maintenance of true pa&s;tors and teachers, with Chri&s;t never ordained.</P>
<P>Here Mai&s;ter Can having acknowledged his owne ignorance, that he knows not <HI>what tho&s;e acce&s;&s;ary part are,</HI> which when he is better informed of, we &s;hall heare more of his minde: after his wonted manner, when he hath nothing to &s;ay, runs away to another matter, and telleth us, that <HI>our ministery wants the &s;ub|&s;tantiall and e&s;&s;entiall parts of the&s;e offices,</HI> and what he would have Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw have done here, but doth not. Which what is it, all of it, to Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons propo&s;ition, that &s;aith nothing of our mini&s;tery at all, (which his a&s;|&s;umption is to &s;peake of) but of the mini&s;tery of pa&s;tors &amp; teachers in generall, as they have their callings, offices, admini&s;trations, and meanes of maintainance, ordained by Chri&s;t in his te&s;tament? Unles any man in his right wits, Mai&s;ter Can onely excepted, will deeme this a good argement: <HI>The mini&s;ters of the Church of England want the very e&s;&s;entiall parts of the offices of pa&s;tors and tea|chers,
<PB N="27" REF="18"> as &s;ome of them &s;elves doe not barely &s;ay, but &s;oundly proove too</HI> (if you will take it on Mai&s;ter Cans word) <HI>and Mai&s;ter Bradshaw hath nothing in this booke to confute them</HI> (tho' that is as true as the other.) <HI>Ergo, the offices, callings, administration and maintenance of pastors and teachers are in all points &s;pecially ordained by Chri&s;t in the new te&s;tament.</HI></P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. Concerning the A&s;&s;umption. 1. whether prelates have their <HI>office, cal|ling,</HI> &amp;c. ordained by Chri&s;t, is be&s;ides the pre&s;ent que&s;tion. Except Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on can proove that they are ordinary mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;emblies; which I am &s;ure he can not.</P>
<P>To this Mai&s;ter Can replies, that <HI>whether they be ordinary or extraordinary mini&s;ters, it is not materiall, and therefore the di&s;tinction is idle and impertinent.</HI> Hnd &s;o havinh &s;pent &s;ome of his wonted railing Rhetorick upon them, he lea|veth them, to be <HI>placed</HI> by him <HI>in what order or degree he will.</HI></P>
<P>Yet by his leave, it is pertinent: For Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on laying his action a|gain&s;t the mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;emblies, and the i&s;&s;ue betweene him and Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw being joined thereupon, tho' he could make that he &s;aith good again&s;t the prelates, unles he be able to proove them mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;emblies, he &s;peaketh nothing that toucheth tho&s;e, again&s;t whome his plea is.</P>
<P><HI>W. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. So many of our mini&s;ters (whoe in the bookes of ordination are called Prie&s;ts and Deacons) as in all points concerning the &s;ub&s;tance of their mini&s;tery, are qualifyed according to the intent of the Laws, have their <HI>offices, callings, ad|mini&s;tration</HI> &amp; <HI>maintenance,</HI> for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof, ordained by Chri&s;t. And yet I deny not, but there may be &s;ome accidentall defects, or &s;uperflaitys in or about them all; yet &s;uch as doe not, or can not be prooved to de&s;troy the natute and &s;ub&s;tance of any of them.</P>
<P>To this is nothing by M^r. Can here &s;aid; and we have nothinh therefore con|cerning it to &s;ay further to him.</P>
<P><HI>Fr Ihon&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption appeareth by their con&s;titution and practi&s;e: in as much as their offices of prelacy, prie&s;thood and deaconry; their calling and entrance, according to theire pontificall; theire choi&s;e of theire people, who &s;tand them|&s;elves
<PB N="28" REF="19"> under Anti-Chri&s;t, and un&s;eperated from the world, and are no true vi|&s;ible Churches of Chri&s;t; their mini&s;tration by their owne and other popi&s;h ca|nons, actes, injunctions and booke of Common praier; their maintainance by Tithes, Lord&s;hips, &amp;c. were never ordained by Chri&s;t for his mini&s;tery, but derived from Antichri&s;t, and his apo&s;ta&s;y; as hath bin prooved by us in divers treati&s;es.</P>
<P><HI>W. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="3">3. All that is brought to proove the a&s;&s;umption is fal&s;e, and as much if not, more controver&s;all, then the a&s;&s;umption it &s;elfe. For</P>
<P N="1">1. He can never proove, that either the practi&s;e of all our mini&s;ters, is in all things according to theire con&s;titution, or theire con&s;titution according to theire practi&s;e, on either of them an&s;werable to the &s;trict termes of the Law in all points.</P>
<P N="2">2. He can never proove, that either in theire con&s;titution or theire practi&s;e, or by the Law, they are in proper &s;peech, either Prie&s;ts or Dea|cons; onely he pre&s;umes them to be &s;uch, becau&s;e through &s;ome liberty of &s;peech u&s;ed in the Laws, they are tearmed &s;uch.</P>
<P N="3">3. Tho' it &s;hould be granted, that our people &s;tand under &s;ome kinde of ob&s;ervancies and offices, which in their owne nature, and fir&s;t originall, are in &s;ome kinde Antichri&s;tian; yet they are of &s;uch a nature, that divers worthy martyrs of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t, that have with&s;tood Antichri&s;t unto blood, have &s;tood under as much as we. And therefore &s;uch a manner of &s;tan|ding under Antichri&s;t, can not be &s;aid to overthrow, tho' it may &s;omewhat &s;taine, the mini&s;tery of Chri&s;t. But how&s;oever he therein &s;hamefully begs the que&s;tion in the naked affirming, without any proofe, that <HI>all in this Kingdome are under Antichrist.</HI></P>
<P N="4">4. Tho' for avoyding further controver&s;y, that &s;hould be granted him, that &s;ome parts of our mini&s;tration <HI>by the Canons,</HI> &amp;c. was never ordained by Chri&s;t; yet at the lea&s;t, the maine, principall and e&s;&s;entiall parts thereof perfor|med according to the canons and booke afore&s;aid, are ordained by Chri&s;t; yea practi&s;ed by M^r. Iohn&s;on him&s;elfe. Neither hath he prooved or ever can proove, that that part of our mini&s;tration by our Canons and booke afore&s;aid, which Chri&s;t hath not ordained, (if any &s;uch be) is of that nature and quality, that it nece&s;&s;arily de&s;troyeth or maketh a nullity of the other parts of theire mi|ni&s;tery, which u&s;e them.</P>
<P N="5">5. Tho' titles, Lord&s;hips and manners in particular, be not ordained by Chri&s;t for the maintenance of mini&s;ters, yet they are as much ordained as any
<PB N="29" REF="19"> other particular or &s;peciall kinde of maintenance: It is the will of Chri&s;t, that the mini&s;ters of the go&s;pell &s;hould live of the go&s;pell, i. e. &s;hould be maintai|ned for their mini&s;tery &s;ake by them, to whome they preach the go&s;pell. But in what particular manner that maintenance &s;hould be rai&s;ed, he hath no where defined, and therefore left it to the di&s;cretion of Chri&s;tian Magi&s;trates or Churches.</P>
<P N="6">6. Whereas for the proofe of the&s;e maine points, he referreth us to the generall titles of certaine treati&s;es formerly publi&s;hed, he might as well &s;end us (as they &s;ay) to &s;eeke a needle in a botle of hay. And why doth he not in all o|ther points of this booke, as well as in this, &s;end us to the &s;aid treati&s;es? Seeing he &s;aith nothing throughout this in effect, that he hath not allready &s;aid in &s;ome one or other of his former bookes.</P>
<P>To all this pa&s;&s;ing by 2. &s;ections of it wholly untouched (whereas yet it con|cerned him to have replyed unto them, as well as to the re&s;t) Mai&s;ter Can &s;aith onely this:</P>
<P N="1">1. <HI>That Mai&s;ter Bradshaw could never proove, when he was alive that either the practi&s;e of all the prie&s;ts in the Church of Rome, was in all things an&s;werable to theire constitution, or theire con&s;titution ac|cording to theire practi&s;e, or either of them an&s;werable to the &s;trict tearmes of the Law. And there upon inferreth that by Mai&s;ter Brad|shaws grounds a man could not conclude any th ng generally again&s;t the unlawfulnes of their mini&s;tery.</HI></P>
<P>But by Mai&s;ter Cans good leave, nothing le&s;&s;e followeth from ought that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw here &s;aith: but this rather; that he that will proove a nece&s;|&s;ity of &s;eparation from all Church-a&s;&s;emblies in the papacy, or any part of it, mu&s;t u&s;e better arguments again&s;t them, then Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on hath u&s;ed again&s;t ours; and &s;uch as are not ju&s;tly liable to &s;uch exception, as this is.</P>
<P N="2">2, <HI>That Mai&s;ter Bradshaw through ignorance or deceit &s;peaketh be&s;ides the pre&s;ent que&s;tion For Maister Iohn&s;on to proove them fals Ministers, mentioneth theire calling and entrance according to theire Pontificalls. Now he &s;aith nothing to this, but talkes of theire practi&s;e.</HI></P>
<P>What the pre&s;ent que&s;tion is, it may &s;eeme, Mai&s;ter Can him&s;elfe &s;carce
<PB N="30" REF="20"> well knew, or would not know; he &s;peaketh &s;o oft indeed be&s;ides it. But mo&s;t fal&s;e it is, that he &s;aith, that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;peaketh of their <HI>practi&s;e,</HI> but no|thing of their <HI>entrance;</HI> which either mu&s;t come within compas of one of the 2. members of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons divi&s;ion, to wit, <HI>constitution,</HI> or el&s;e maketh no|thing to the purpo&s;e of that Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on &s;peaketh of, when he telleth us, that <HI>his a&s;&s;umption appeareth by theire con&s;titution and practi&s;e:</HI> of both which Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw expre&s;&s;ely &s;peaketh againe and againe. Tho' of the en&s;uing particulars, which either mu&s;t come under one of tho&s;e heads, or are el&s;e altoge|ther impertinent, he &s;peaketh nothing in particular; becau&s;e nothing is brought to make them good, but his Reader is turned over to other treati&s;es <HI>to &s;eeke,</HI> as he well &s;aith, <HI>a needle in a botle of hay;</HI> and they may as ea&s;ily be denyed by us, as by him they are avowed. And Mai&s;ter Cans merry pa&s;&s;age therefore that in&s;ueth, concerning <HI>a bastard,</HI> that he &s;aith <HI>would make a man laugh,</HI> and may well indeed, to &s;ee Mai&s;ter Cans folly, might very well have bin &s;pared by him, unles he had a minde as &s;ome men at &s;ometimes have, to make him&s;elfe a lau|ghing-&s;tock.</P>
<P N="3">3. He denieth that <HI>tho&s;e administrations, which are perfor|med by theire popish canons, and booke of common prayer, are the maine, principall and e&s;&s;entiall administrations, which Chri&s;t hath or|dained.</HI></P>
<P>Which is no deniall at all of that which Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw hath avowed; for his words are, that <HI>the maine and e&s;&s;entiall parts of our mini&s;tery, performed ac|cording to the canons and booke afore&s;aid, are ordained by Chri&s;t; and that part of it, if any be, which Chri&s;t hath not ordained, is not &s;uch as de&s;troyed or makes a nullity of the re&s;t.</HI> So that this man &s;hootes at random &s;till as his u&s;uall manner is.</P>
<P>Howbeit now, that you may &s;ee he meaneth to play the part of a replier, he will proofe what he &s;aith, and the rather, becau&s;e Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on hath failed in his proofes, and given things here barely upon his own word.</P>
<P>For 1. <HI>The&s;e allow of no true pastors and teachers.</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. <HI>They require the Sacraments unlawfully to be admini&s;tred.</HI></P>
<P>La&s;tly. <HI>They command an idolatrous worship and a devilish di&s;cipline.</HI></P>
<P>You &s;ee what round worke here is. What would you have more? yea heare Mai&s;ter Cans Oracles; a downright man: which if you plea&s;e, you may take upon his word: for he prooveth them as well as Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on: and if you
<PB N="31" REF="20" MS="y"> will but give him his owne words, all will be by and by at an end. As for his next merry pa&s;&s;age, (for it &s;eemeth he was in a vain of laughter, when he was about this argument) he may doe well to re&s;erve it to make him&s;elfe merry, when he is in &s;ome &s;uch melancholy fit; as it may &s;eeme he fell &s;uddenly into in the &s;hutting up of his reply to this part, where he blurreth his paper with tho&s;e black lines formerly related; of that <HI>mishapen birth,</HI> that he wi&s;hed <HI>buried in its mothers wombe, or kept in &s;ome darke hole, where it might never &s;ee light.</HI> Which he might very well have wi&s;hed to have befalln his own booke, unles the mat|ter of it had been more lovely, then hitherto it hath appeared.</P>
<P>Thus are we come at length to an end of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons fir&s;t argument, which being grown to this i&s;&s;ue: That Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw in an&s;wering there|unto hath averred, that <HI>the maine, principall and e&s;&s;entiall parts of our mini&s;tery are &s;uch as were ordained by Christ, nor are there any &s;uch acce&s;&s;arys thereunto an|nexed, as make as nullity thereof:</HI> there is nothing hereunto replyed, as ought to be, but bare words without proofe.</P>
<P>Pa&s;&s;e we to the 2. Argument by Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on thus conceived.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of pa&s;tors and teachers &s;poken of Eph. 4.11. is the ordinary and perpetuall mini&s;tery given by Chri&s;t to his Church, and &s;uch as the Princes of the earth neither may nor ever &s;hall be able to aboli&s;h, &s;eeing Chri&s;t hath appointed it to continue to the end of the world.</P>
<P>But the prelacy, prie&s;thood and deaconry of the Church of England is not the ordinary and perpetuall mini&s;tery given by Chri&s;t to his Church; but &s;uch as the Princes of the earth may and ought to aboli&s;h out of theire dominions. Rev. 17.16. 1. Tim. 2.2.. Rom. 13.4. with 1. King. 23.5. Deut. 12.2. P&s;alm 72.1.</P>
<P>Therefore the prie&s;thood, prelacy and deaconry of the Church of England is not the mini&s;tery of pa&s;tors and teachers &s;poken of Eph. 4.11.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>I deny the a&s;&s;umption. Under&s;tanding by <HI>prelacy, priesthood</HI> &amp; <HI>deaconry,</HI> the ordinary mini&s;tery of our Church a&s;&s;emblies, again&s;t which he propoundeth him&s;elfe to di&s;pute: And an&s;were, that it is the ordinary and perpetuall mini|&s;tery given by Chri&s;t to his Church, and &s;uch as the Princes of the earth are bound by Gods Laws to maintaine and protect by their autority; and if there be any corruptions in and about the &s;ame, which they ought to aboli&s;h, that yet
<PB N="32" REF="21"> they are accidentall and per&s;onall; and not &s;o e&s;&s;entiall, as that they doe de&s;troy the mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>Upon the a&s;&s;umption thus by Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw denyed, if it be conceaved according to the que&s;tion propounded, heare we now how &s;ub&s;tantially Mai|&s;ter Can replyeth.</P>
<P N="1">1. He telleth <HI>M. Bradshaw if it be &s;o, that Princes are bound to maintaine our ministery, then hath he shamefully from time to time mocked and abu&s;ed them, in craving &s;o earne&s;tly to have the &s;ame quite rooted out and abolished, and the right established in the roome of it.</HI></P>
<P>True indeed, Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw hath &s;hamefully abu&s;ed and mocked the Magi&s;trate, if ever he &s;o did. But meane while Mai&s;ter Can &s;hamefully abu|&s;eth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, &amp; mocketh his Reader, in averring that Mai&s;ter Brad|&s;haw ever &s;o did: which neither he doth proove, nor will ever be able to doe.</P>
<P N="2">2. He &s;aith, that <HI>dumb dogs, cater pillers and idle bellys had never a better proctour then this man, to pleade for theire unlawfull &s;tanding: for he &s;aith, the magistrate is bound to defend theire mini&s;tery.]</HI> When Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw plaine|ly di&s;tingui&s;heth betweene the <HI>mini&s;tery</HI> it &s;elfe, and the <HI>per&s;onall abu&s;es</HI> of it. Neither &s;uch abu&s;ers of the mini&s;tery, nor theire abu&s;es of it doth he pleade for; which he granteth the Magi&s;trate &s;tands bound to abandon and aboli&s;h; but to maintaine that mini&s;tery that by them is &s;o abu&s;ed.</P>
<P>For as for what he prateth &s;o oft of his <HI>not making di&s;tinction of mini&s;ters &amp; mini&s;ters</HI> among us: theire proofes mu&s;t be generall; as the &s;eparation, they &s;hould inferre, is &s;uch.] And for other his lavi&s;h language of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws <HI>con&s;cience,</HI> as if he cared not how <HI>he let it out here at large;</HI> I &s;ay no more, but wi&s;h Mai&s;ter Can as tender a con&s;cience, as Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw had, and him&s;elfe as carefull to tie it &s;hort. It had in part &s;aved his credite, and &s;pared others &s;ome labour, had he kept it in a little better.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>The places of Scripture, annexed to the A&s;&s;umption for the proofe thereof, are all abu&s;ed and prophaned. For not one of them doth any way &s;o much as colourably proove either of the clau&s;es in the a&s;&s;umption: but onely they proove in generall, that the idolatry, and idolatrous mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;t is to be abo|li&s;hed. So that, the man in his &s;implicity takes it as granted; that our mini&s;tery is &s;uch an idolatrous mini&s;tery; which is the maine matter in controver&s;y, and in effect, the generall que&s;tion of this whole booke.</P>
<PB N="33" REF="21">
<P>So Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw. And indeed &s;o gros and palpable is Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons dealing with Scripture here (a thing too u&s;uall with tho&s;e of that &s;ide) that at the conference with Mai&s;ter Iack&s;on before mentioned, he and &s;ome other of his company (it being evidently evinced) at fir&s;t, would faine have made it the fault of the Printer, that had mi&s;placed the proofes, and annexed them to the wrong part of the premi&s;&s;es: but when they &s;aw that they fitted as ill, or wors rather, with the propo&s;ition, then with the a&s;&s;umption, they were at theire wits end, and had nothing to &s;ay in defence of this foule abu&s;e.</P>
<P>But there is no cau&s;e &s;o de&s;perate, but Mai&s;ter Can dare undertake it. Yea by Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws own grants he will make it appeare, that the&s;e Scriptures doe proove Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons a&s;&s;umption, and are <HI>not</HI> therefore <HI>abu&s;ed and pro|phaned by him. For Maister Bradshaw confe&s;&s;eth, that the idola<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">rous mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;t is to be abolished. And ours,</HI> &s;aid Mai&s;ter Can, <HI>is &s;uch.]</HI> But I demand of Mai&s;ter Can; whether it be &s;o or no, doe the&s;e places proove it &s;o to be? Suppo&s;e a man &s;hould rea&s;on on this wi&s;e.</P>
<P><HI>A Chri&s;tian man should shun the &s;ocietie of &s;uch as be haughty, high-minded, &s;elfconceited, boa&s;ters, contemners of autority, makers of &s;chi&s;me and divi&s;ion in the Church of God by &s;eparating and withdrawing them&s;elves to perdition.</HI></P>
<P><HI>But &s;uch are M^r. Can &amp; his company; as appeares by</HI> 2. Tim. 3.2, 4. Iude 8, 10, 19. Rom. 6.18. Hebr. 10.25, 39.] Albeit, the things &s;poken in tho&s;e parcels of Scripture pointed to, were true; as it is to be feared they are of too many a|mong them: yet would not M^r. Can cry out of intolerable abu&s;e therein offe|red, not to them onely but to Gods word al&s;o? Yea whether the things charged upon them were true or fal&s;e, yet were it indeed a foule prophanation of Scrip|tures, to produce it for the proofe of that which it &s;peaketh not, &amp; &s;o to wring that out of it, which in no wi&s;e it will yeeld. And yet ju&s;t &s;uch, or rather wors then &s;uch, is the practi&s;e of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on in this place, as by tho&s;e in&s;tances of places produced by him may appeare.</P>
<P><HI>The Princes of the earth shall destroy the whore of Babylon.</HI> Rev. 17.16. <HI>therefore the prelacy, p<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">iesthood and deaconry of the Church of England is not the ordinary and perpetuall ministery given by Christ to his Church; but &s;uch as the Princes of the Earth may and ought to abolish.</HI> Or wors then this: <HI>Let prayer be made for Kings and all th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">t be in autority, that we may leade a quiet and peace|able life in all godlines and hone&s;ty.</HI> 1. Tim. 2 2, <HI>Therefore the prelacy, prie&s;t|hood and deaconry of the Church of England,</HI> &amp;c. Or, for feare of turning the Readers &s;tomake with too much of &s;uch un&s;avory matter, to pa&s;&s;e by all the re&s;t and take the la&s;t onely.</P>
<PB N="34" REF="22">
<P><HI>Give the judgement to the King, O Lord; and they righteou&s;nes to the Kings Sonne.</HI> P&s;alm 72.1. <HI>Therefore the prelacy, prie&s;thood,</HI> &amp;c.</P>
<P>What is to make the Scripture a no&s;e of wax, if this be not, and to wring out of it what our &s;elves will? A man may indeed by this cour&s;e of dealing con|demne ea&s;ily any people per&s;on or profe&s;&s;ion, out of Scripture &s;o abu&s;ed, taking for granted, the truth of the crime or fault charged upon them, and producing &s;uch Scripture as &s;peaketh in generall of &s;uch crime or offence, and with all tel|ling them, that by &s;uch Scripture appeareth what they are, and what will be|come of them, or ought to be done to them. I in&s;i&s;t the rather upon this, that others may be admon<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;hed to heede well the&s;e mens quotations; which they heape up often for a flouri&s;h, to delude &s;illy &s;oules with, and make them believe, that they hold nothing, nor require nothing, but what the word of God it &s;elfe doth; and not to take the places quoted by them upon tru&s;t; but turne to them them&s;elves, and examine the fittnes and forciblenes of them to confirme that that they are produced for.</P>
<P>For, as for this mans vaine idle bible bable here following, that <HI>our entrance is popish, our &s;ervice Antichri&s;tian &amp; idolatrous, the manner of performance of it unlawfull,</HI> &amp;c. And that <HI>all this, many non-conformi&s;ts of greater note &amp; zeale then ever Mai&s;ter Bradshaw was, have by rea&s;on &s;oundly manife&s;ted;</HI> &amp; that <HI>he therefore hath shewed the more pride and ignorance in oppo&s;ing them,</HI> &amp;c. What is it indeed but a &s;hamefull begging of the maine matter, and a turning of us over to others for the proofe of that, that he is not able him&s;elfe to make good? Be&s;ides, that it is all nothing to the in&s;ufficiency of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons argument, nor to the ju&s;tification of this gros abu&s;ing charged on him, of the Scriptures alledged by him; which no more proove us to be papi&s;ts, then tho&s;e other doe them to be &s;chi&s;maticks; and which yet unles they doe, they &s;ay no|thing for Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons purpo&s;e, that any way concerneth us.</P>
<P>As for <HI>pride and ignorance (arrogance,</HI> I &s;uppo&s;e it &s;hould be: but it matte|reth not, whether it be, &s;ince that <HI>pride</HI> may well include this to) charged upon Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw for oppo&s;ing many non-conformi&s;ts, and if it be a point of &s;o much pride and arrogancy for one to oppo&s;e men of greater note and zeale then him&s;elfe, I will not &s;ay Mai&s;ter Can hath well merited his own cen&s;ure, by op|po&s;ing Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw e&s;pecially in &s;uch manner as he doth; but I dare be bolde to &s;ay, that Mai&s;ter Can and his a&s;&s;ociates may by his owne ground and grant be ju&s;tly concluded to be deepely tainted with exce&s;&s;e of pride and arro|gancy, in not oppo&s;ing onely, but condemning al&s;o as fal&s;e and Antichri&s;tian mini&s;ters, &s;o many famous worthys, as no age &s;ince the Apo&s;tles time, hath in
<PB N="35" REF="22"> likely hood, afforded theire equalls; and &s;o many godly martyrs, as have for gods cau&s;e con&s;tantly and cheerefully embraced fier and fagot; men that may ju&s;tly be pre&s;umed to be and have ben, of greater note and zeale, than either Mai&s;ter Can him&s;elfe, or any of his &s;chi&s;me. Or, if, to waive the imputation, they will bee &s;o confident, or impudent rather, as to avow them&s;elves of greater note &amp; zeale than any, or many, of the be&s;t of tho&s;e, whome they thus condemne, (unles of greater ill note and bitter zeale they &s;hall meane) &s;o far thereby &s;hall they be from &s;hifting of the cen&s;ure, that they &s;hall by &s;uch fond profe&s;&s;ion manife&s;tly bewray a far further degree of extreame &s;elfe conceite, the wor&s;t &s;ort of pride that may be. Let not therefore either Mai&s;ter Can him&s;elfe, or his complices hereafter blame us, if we take them for a company of exceeding proud arrogant per&s;ons, and accordingly &s;peake of them, when occa&s;ion requireth; Mai&s;ter Can theire pa&s;tor having given us good ground here &s;o to &s;peake, &amp; &s;o to thinke.</P>
<P>But pa&s;&s;e we to Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons third Argument.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The office of pa&s;tors and teachers ordained by Chri&s;t in his Te&s;tament, are &s;uch as did or could &s;tand with the offices of the Apo&s;tles, Prophets and Evan|geli&s;ts.</P>
<P>But the offices of the Prelates, Prie&s;ts and Deacons of the Church of England are not &s;uch, as did or could &s;tand with or under the offices of Apo&s;tles, Prophets and Evangeli&s;ts: which if any deny, let him &s;hew the contrary by the Scriptures.</P>
<P>Therefore they are not the pa&s;tors &amp; teachers ordained by Ghri&s;t in his new Te&s;tament.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Brads<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">aw.</HI></P>
<P>What a &s;hamele&s;&s;e man is this to affirme, That <HI>our ministery neither did nor could &s;tand with the offices of the Apo&s;tles,</HI> &amp;c. and for proofe thereof bid us, <HI>if we deny it, shew the contrary by Scriptures?</HI> Doth not the burden of prooving, by the very Law of common rea&s;on lie upon the accu&s;er? If I &s;hould in like manner reproach his mini&s;tery, and &s;ay, that <HI>it is a mini&s;tery that &s;tandeth upon forcery witchcraft and conjuration,</HI> and for proofe thereof, bid him, <HI>if he deny it, shew the contrary by Scripture,</HI> where I not worthy at lea&s;t to be laughed out of the Schooles? This is a &s;ufficient ju&s;tification of our mini&s;tery, that &s;uch mali|tious adver&s;arys thereof, who would &s;eeme &s;o expert in the Scriptures, are no better able by Scripture to proove theire unchri&s;tian accu&s;ation.</P>
<P>But this fond foppery of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on, Mai&s;ter Can taketh notice of;
<PB N="36" REF="23"> tho' it concerned him &s;o to have done; the rather, for that he exacteth the &s;ame of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw him&s;elfe, and taxeth him for not doeing that in his booke, tho' not belonging to his part, that Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on here requireth pag. 217, But let us &s;ee Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons proofes of his A&s;&s;umption.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. Light hath no fellow&s;hip with darknes; nor Chri&s;t with Antichri&s;t.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>It is true, that <HI>light hath no fellowship with darkenes, nor Chri&s;t with Anti|christ.</HI> Yet there is no light in men in this life, but it is mingled with &s;ome darknes; and the be&s;t Chri&s;tians that are, or ever have ben &s;ince the Apo&s;tles times, may be infected with &s;ome points of Antichri&s;tiani&s;me. Many of the late martyrs &s;ince the revealing of Antichri&s;t, were worthy lights, and renowned Chri&s;tians, and yet the light of many of them was mingled with more darknes, and theire Chri&s;tianity with more Antichri&s;tiani&s;me, then can be found in our mini&s;tery.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. Suppo&s;e the Apo&s;tles were alive in theire per&s;ons, and were in England, it were worth the knowing, whether they and the ordinances given by them, &s;hould give place to the Prelates and theire Canons; and whether they &s;hould be &s;uffered to preach, &amp;c. without &s;ub&s;cribing and conforming. Theire Ca|nons urge all upon paine of excommunication <HI>ip&s;o facto.</HI></P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. Our Bi&s;hops have as good rea&s;on to make the like &s;uppo&s;ition again&s;t him, &amp; as much worthy the inquiry that were, if the Apo&s;tles were alive now in the<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">re own per&s;ons where he liveth, and &s;hould profe&s;&s;e the Church-a&s;&s;emblies in England to be true Churches, and theire mini&s;tery in generall to be a Law|full mini&s;tery, and theire wor&s;hip for &s;ub&s;tance to be a true wor&s;hip, whether Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">n and his Cnurch would &s;uffer them to be &s;o much as private members of theire &s;ociety, much more to preach, &amp;c.</P>
<P N="2">2. Though our Bi&s;h<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ps &s;hould be herein &s;o impious, as to advance in &s;uch a manner, theire owne autority and ordinances above the Apo&s;tles: yet what is that to proove that the prie&s;thood &amp; deaconry of the mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;emblies, (who many of them in the&s;e points are meere patients, and e&s;teeme of the&s;e things as burdens) cannot &s;tand with the offices of Apo&s;tles, &amp;c. doth Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on think that none of our mini&s;ters in England, would &s;uffer the
<PB N="37" REF="23"> Apo&s;tles to preach in theire cures, without wearing a Surplice, if they might have theire owne wills? or &s;hould this any whit derogate from theire mini&s;te|ry, that the Bi&s;hops therein would not &s;uffer them to have theire will?</P>
<P N="3">3. It is be&s;ides the pre&s;ent que&s;tion, and a needle&s;&s;e thing to &s;pend time in ju&s;tifying the Canons herein. If the Bi&s;hops therein have gone too farre, it may &s;eeme to be the fault of the per&s;ons rather than of the prelacy it &s;elfe: &amp; there|fore to make and urge &s;uch Canons and traditions as are afore&s;aid, doth not proove, but that for all that the prelacy in and of it &s;elfe, might &s;tand well e|nough with the offices of the Apo&s;tles, &amp;c. for tho&s;e offices may of them&s;elves, (if there be no other impediment) &s;tand well one with an other, which in the actions thereof doe not (but by accident onely) one overthrow and oppugne the other.</P>
<P>Now to all this Mai&s;ter Can returneth us never a wi&s;e word, nay giveth us neither good nor bad, &s;ave to the very la&s;t alone: that <HI>he cannot thinke, that Mai&s;ter Bradshaw &s;peaketh in earne&s;t; That the prelacy in and of it &s;elfe may &s;tand well enough with the offices of the Apostles,</HI> &amp;c. (taking no notice with|all of his rea&s;on annexed thereunto) and that <HI>&s;ome other non-conformists are here|in of an other minde.</HI> And this he flouri&s;hes a little over with a &s;tory of <HI>Lycur|gus,</HI> reported in cutting down a vine to have killed his own Sonne, and cutt his own &s;hins: meane while little regarding to &s;ave the &s;hins and the &s;inews of his brother Iohn&s;ons argument, which he had undertaken to &s;helter and &s;ave|gard from &s;uch damage; not helping him with any one word to avoyd or ward of that maine exception; that all here &s;poken of the prelacy helps no whit to proove that which is principally to be prooved, to wit, that <HI>the prie&s;thood and deaconry of our Church-a&s;&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">mblys can not &s;tand under the offices of the Apo&s;tles,</HI> &amp;c. But &s;uffering it to be wholly thereby <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ewed down to the very ground.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Ihon&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The offices of true pa&s;tors and teachers are by the ordinance of Chri&s;t &s;et in the Church, and imployd in the mini&s;tery of the word, Sacraments and Church government, &s;o as they may not with their Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall functions receave ci|vill offices &amp; callings, nor take upon them princely titles &amp; dignitys. Eph. 4.11. 1. Pet. 5.1. Rom. 12.2, 4. Luke 12.14. and 22.25. 1. Cor. 12.5, 8. 1. Tim. 4.13, 15, 16. 2. Tim. 2.4.</P>
<P>But the offices of Prelates, Prie&s;ts and Deacons of the Church of England are not &s;o, but by theire own con&s;titution are &s;et in the Church, and imployd in the mini&s;tery, &s;o as they may all&s;o receave civill offices and callings, as to be ju|&s;tices of peace, &amp;c.</P>
<PB N="38" REF="24">
<P>Therefore they are not true pa&s;tors and teachers.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>There are 4. tearmes in this &s;yllogi&s;me: the gro&s;&s;e &s;ophi&s;try whereof may appeare by the explanation thereof in other words.</P>
<P><HI>True pa&s;t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">rs and teachers may not</HI> (vizt. by Gods Law) <HI>take upon them civ<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ll offices.</HI></P>
<P><HI>The mini&s;ters of England, may</HI> (to wit by mans Law <HI>take upon them civill offices.</HI></P>
<P><HI>Therefore they are not true pa&s;tors and teachers.</HI></P>
<P>This is the effect of this argument, and who is &s;o blinde, but he may &s;ee the fallacy thereof? And it is as though we &s;hould rea&s;on in the like manner again&s;t their m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ni&s;te<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">y thus:</P>
<P><HI>True p<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;tors and teachers may not be Drunkards, Anabapt &s;ts. Famili&s;ts.</HI></P>
<P><HI>The min<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ters of the Separat<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">on at Am&s;terdam may be Drunkards, Ana|bapti&s;ts, Famil<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">sts</HI></P>
<P><HI>Therefore they are not true p<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;tors and teachers.</HI></P>
<P>This A&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">umption is as true as the former. For the &s;ame kinde of autority that perm<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">tt<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">th our min &s;ters to be civill magi&s;trates, doth permit them to be drunkards, &amp;c. the gove<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">nt under which they live permitteth the one to more, then our State doth the other.</P>
<P>But I an&s;were more particularly</P>
<P N="1">1. That by the &s;ame Law, that our mini&s;ters may take upon them civill magi&s;tracy, any true pa&s;tors and teachers may take upon them the &s;ame auto|rity. And by the &s;ame Law that true pa&s;tors and teachers may not take civill autority upon them, our mini&s;ters may not take the &s;ame upon them.</P>
<P N="2">2. All our mini&s;ters may not (no, not by the Laws of our State) take upon the~ civill autority, but &s;uch onely as are called &s;pecially thereunto by the favour and grace of the civill magi&s;trate; not as they are prelates, prie&s;ts or deacons, or by vertue of tho&s;e functions; but in re&s;pect of other qualifications. Neither are they forced by any Law to adjoyne any &s;uch autority to theire mini&s;tery, but permitted onely. But what if by the Laws of men mini&s;ters might be murthe|res, adulteres, theeves, &amp;c. &s;hould theire Laws change theire nature of theire mini&s;tery? what? of theire mini&s;tery, that deny unto them&s;elves that licence? would it not rather the more ju&s;tify theire mini&s;tery, when in con&s;cience of Gods Law they &s;hall forbeare that, which fle&s;h and bloud, and humane Laws would permit unto them?</P>
<P N="3"><PB N="39" REF="24">3. Suppo&s;e not onely, that it is unlawfull for any true pa&s;tors and teachers to be civill magi&s;trates; but al&s;o, that by our Laws, all our mini&s;ters were fore+ced thereunto, and that by vertue of theire mini&s;tery; will it thence follow, that for this cau&s;e, they are not true pa&s;tors and teachers? may not true pa&s;tors and teachers, in theire weakenes, ignorance and infirmity, (the Laws of the State re|quiring the &s;ame,) admitt of &s;ome kinde of office or autority forbidden them; but they mu&s;t needes thereupon cea&s;e to be true pa&s;tors and teachers? doth the admitting of every unlawfull thing change the nature of the mini&s;tery, &amp; make it either no mini&s;tery, or a mini&s;tery of an other kinde?</P>
<P>To all this Mai&s;ter Can, who &s;aith that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw <HI>an&s;wers nothing, but with ifs, and ands, and I &s;ays,</HI> replieth nothing at all pertinent to the maine matter in hand, or to the ju&s;tification of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons argument but like the Aegyptian dogs, as they runne along by the banks of Nilus, taking here a &s;natch and there a &s;natch, as his owne fancy &s;erveth, or the toy taketh him in the head, as things lea&s;t pertinent letteth all that pa&s;&s;e, wherein the weight of the poynt lyeth; onely taketh up Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw after his wonted arrogant &s;traine, &amp; falling foule on the man, lets the matter &s;hift for it &s;elfe.</P>
<P N="1">1. He chargeth him with <HI>corrupt shifts,</HI> u&s;ed by him <HI>to ju&s;tify civill offices in Eccle&s;iasticall per&s;ons;</HI> whereas other <HI>non-conformi&s;ts affirm the thing to be ut|terly unlawfull.</HI> Which is nothing indeed but a gro&s;&s;e untruth, and more then a &s;ingle one. For neither doth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw ju&s;tify civill offices in &s;uch by ought that he here &s;aith; nor doth he u&s;e any corrupt &s;hifts, to ju&s;tify ought that he doth &s;ay.</P>
<P N="2">2 He chargeth him to &s;ay, that <HI>the &s;ame autority, that permitteth our mini|&s;ters to be civill magistrates, doth permitt them to be drunckards,</HI> &amp;c. And <HI>to &s;lander therein the &s;tate.</HI></P>
<P>A gros untruth, as plaine and evident, yer more palpable then the former. For Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;aith no &s;uch thing of our State, or our min<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ters, but of the mini&s;ters of the &s;eparation of Am&s;terdam, and of the State under which they live. That <HI>the &s;ame kinde of autority</HI> (to wit, the civill magi&s;tracy) <HI>that permit|teth our ministers to be civill magistrates, doth permit them</HI> (that is, the mini&s;ters of the Separation at Am&s;terdam before &s;poken of, as any eye may &s;oone &s;ee in the context before related) <HI>to be drunckards,</HI> &amp;c. (that is, <HI>Anabaptists and Fa|mili&s;ts,</HI> as before he had &s;aid) <HI>the government, under which they live, permitteth the one no more, then our State doth the other.</HI> Nor is this any untruth, nor any &s;lander to our State; which permitts not the&s;e enormitys in any either mini&s;ters or others, but by Laws to that purpo&s;e enacted inhibiteth them in all, how&s;oe|ver
<PB N="40" REF="25"> in matter of execution thereof default may be: whereas it is not &s;o with the State, where Mai&s;ter Can it &s;eemes, liveth. For Mai&s;ter Can may be, &amp; Mai|&s;ter Iohn&s;on might have ben as well a Drunckard, or a Famili&s;t, or an Anabap|ti&s;t, as a Separati&s;t, or a mini&s;ter to a &s;eparating congregation: the civill magi|&s;trate permitting as well the one as the other. Mai&s;ter Can therefore, either knoweth, not what he oppo&s;eth, which is the note of a brain&s;icke idiote, or regar|deth not, what untruth he &s;peaketh again&s;t his own knowledge, which is a far wor&s;e matter, a note of an un&s;ound and a cauterized con&s;cience.</P>
<P N="3">3. He chargeth him, to <HI>put the lye upon the writings of his brethren, in &s;ay|ing, that by the &s;ame Law, that theire min<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ters may take upon them civil magi|&s;tracy, any true pa&s;tors may take upon them the &s;ame autority.]</HI> To omit the ha|bituated broadenes of this foul-mouthed fellowes language, in &s;aying, <HI>he puttes the lye upon them,</HI> as if every one that manife&s;teth his opinion in any point to be contrary to the judgement of &s;ome other, mu&s;t needes in &s;o doeing put the lye upon him, from whome he &s;o manife&s;teth his di&s;&s;ent. To let this pa&s;&s;e, I &s;ay, had this blinde buzzard a right under&s;tood, as he might ea&s;ily have done, (if he had either his eyes in his head, or &s;o much witt in his brain) either by loo|king back to the A&s;&s;umption of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons Syllogi&s;me, as Mai&s;ter Brad|&s;haw had layd it open; <HI>The min<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ters of England may (to wit by mans Law) tak<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> upon them civill offices:</HI> or foreward to the very next en&s;uing words; <HI>And by the &s;ame Law that true pa&s;tors and teachers may not take upon th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">m civill au|tority, our mini&s;ters may not take the &s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">me upon them:</HI> He might &s;oone have &s;een that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;aith nothing at all contrary unto that which they &s;ay, whome he &s;aith that he giveth the lye unto. And I may well therefore re|tort and returne his owne words here upon him; <HI>what a shameles man is this</HI> to affirme &s;uch untruths? yea and more then that, to charge another with &s;hame|le&s;nes in this kinde there, where he &s;carce &s;peakes a true word him&s;elfe, but lyeth notoriou&s;ly and palpably, as the very booke it &s;elfe tolde him, that he had then before his eyes; in fathering tho&s;e untruths that he &s;peaketh of, upon him whome he &s;o cen&s;ureth?</P>
<P N="4">4 Having nothing to &s;peake to the point, he giveth a &s;natch at tho&s;e words, An&s;w. 2. <HI>By the favour and grace of the civill magi&s;trate. Whether they be,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>civill magi&s;trates by the favour and grace of Princes, as he &s;peakes, or any other way, it is nothing to the purpo&s;e, &s;eeing the thing it &s;elfe is every way and altoge|ther unlawfull.</HI></P>
<P>To let pa&s;&s;e his peremtory &s;entence, that may not be controled; and yet, I beleeve, would make him &s;weate &s;oundly, ere he could &s;ub&s;tantially proove it:
<PB N="41" REF="25"> It is little indeed to the purpo&s;e, to ought that he here &s;aith; who, as the manner of tho&s;e is that have undertaken an ill cau&s;e, loves to be dealing rather with any thing that comes in the way, than with the matter that he hath undertaken; yet it maketh to the purpo&s;e of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons argument; for it &s;heweth, that neither all our mini&s;ters either are, or may be &s;uch, as is here pretended: &amp; the exception therefore to lie, were it never &s;o &s;ound, in compari&s;ion but again&s;t few.</P>
<P N="5">5. He concludeth all with this, which is all returns to Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws la&s;t exception; <HI>When they have prooved them&s;elves to be true pa&s;tors and tea|chers, then there will be a fit place to shew whether the admitting of a civill office doe change the nature of a Church ministery, or no.</HI></P>
<P>Had any man, thinke we, ever to doe with a more &s;en&s;eles dolt then this is; that regards not what he &s;aith, &s;o he may &s;eeme to &s;ay &s;omewhat? Mai&s;ter Iohn|&s;on whome he undertakes to defend, would proove <HI>our mini&s;ters therefore to be no true pa&s;tors and teachers, becau&s;e they may by the Law of our Land be civill Magi&s;trates.</HI> To make this good, it mu&s;t of nece&s;&s;ity be avowed, that the ad|mitting of a civill magi&s;tracy doth change the nature of a Church mini&s;tery, yea doth overthrow the very truth and e&s;&s;ence of it. Yet this man biddeth his adver&s;arys, fir&s;t proove theire mini&s;ters to be true pa&s;tors and teachers, &amp; then they will come to di&s;pute that point, which is or &s;hould be the maine pith and heart of theire argument, and being pull'd out of it, leaveth it a &s;ory barke with|out body. Can we po&s;&s;ibly thinke we, make this man to &s;ee his own &s;en&s;ele&s;nes? we will a&s;&s;ay it, though it be over-tedious, a little for his owne &s;ake, if it may help him to &s;ee him&s;elfe. For as for others, if they have but common &s;ence, not fore&s;talled wholly with extreame prejudice, they will ea&s;ily apprehend it by what hath ben &s;aid. Suppo&s;e a man &s;hould rea&s;on again&s;t Mai&s;ter Can as M^r. Iohn&s;on doth again&s;t us. <HI>He that may by the Laws of the State he liveth under, be a Famili&s;t, is no true minister of Christ. But &s;o may Mai&s;ter Can be, by the Laws of the State he liveth under, Mai&s;ter Can therefore is no true mini&s;ter of Chri&s;t.</HI> If Mai&s;ter Can in defence of him&s;elfe &s;hould deny the propo&s;ition, and tell us, that <HI>a man may be a true mini&s;ter of Christ, notwith&s;tanding &s;uch permi&s;&s;ion of the State he liveth under, for that no &s;uch permi&s;&s;ion doth change the nature of a Church-ministery, nor overthrow the E&s;&s;ence of it.</HI> And an other in this ca&s;e, being to reply upon him, &s;hould bid him, <HI>fir&s;t proove him&s;elfe a true mini&s;ter of Chri&s;t; and then he will di&s;pute the que&s;tion afterward, whither it doe &s;o or no.</HI> Would not Mai&s;ter Can exclaime on &s;uch a one as a very dolt indeed, and one that under&s;tood not what belonged, I will not &s;ay, to Logick, the art of rea&s;o|ning,
<PB N="42" REF="26"> but even to rea&s;on and common &s;en&s;e it &s;elfe? which if he might in &s;uch ca&s;e well doe, as there is no doubt but he might, he may ea&s;ily under&s;tand, what might be &s;ayd of him&s;elfe, for his like-dealing in an argument of the very &s;elfe &s;ame mould.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of Chri&s;tian pa&s;tors and teachers &s;tandeth by the word and ordinance of Chri&s;t, &s;o as all Churches under heaven are bound to receave and &s;ubmitt thereunto.</P>
<P>But the prelacy, prie&s;thood and deaconry of the Church of England, &s;tandeth onely by the authority and Law of man; &s;o as other Churches el&s;where neither are, nor neede to be &s;ubject thereunto, which even them&s;elves of all &s;orts have acknowledged. For which &s;ee Whitgifts defence in the preface, the an&s;were to the Ab&s;tract. pag. 58. the admonition to the Parliamant; the defence of the Godly mini&s;ters; the demon&s;tration.</P>
<P>Therefore it is not the m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ni&s;tery of Chri&s;tian pa&s;tors and teachers.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>I deny the A&s;&s;umption, the mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England whether of Prelates, Prie&s;ts or Deacons, or by what other names &s;oever they be called, for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof, &s;tandeth by the word and ordinance of Chri&s;t; and not onely by the authority and Law of man. And all other true Churches are, and ought to be &s;ubject, to the &s;ame kinde of mini&s;tery, and to no other, that &s;hall in any e&s;&s;entiall point of mini&s;tery differ from ours.</P>
<P>If any particular per&s;ons among us have ben &s;o unadvi&s;ed as to grant the A&s;|&s;umption, let them an&s;were for them&s;elves. He hath no more rea&s;on to bind us to their opinions, then we to bind him unto what&s;oever his predece&s;&s;ors, Brown, Barow and Greenwood have held before him.</P>
<P>Concerning &s;ome of the particulars, D^r. Whitgifts words are the&s;e: <HI>The &s;ub&s;tance and nature of government mu&s;t indeed be taken out of the word of God &amp; con&s;isteth in the&s;e parts: that the word be truly taught, the Sacraments rightly administred vertue furthered, vice repre&s;&s;ed, and the Church kept in quietnes and order. The offices of the Church, whereby this government is wrought, be not namely and particularly expre&s;&s;ed in Scripture&punc; but in &s;ome points left to the di&s;cretion and li|berty of the Church, to be di&s;po&s;ed according to the State of times, per|&s;ons
<PB N="43" REF="26"> and places.</HI> The author of the A<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">were to the Ab&s;tract in the place alled|ged &s;aith; That <HI>it can not be prooved, that any &s;et and exact particular forme of di&s;cipline is recommended to us in the word of God.</HI> Now are either of the&s;e to affirme; That <HI>the mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys &s;tandeth onely by the Laws and authority of man?</HI> Hath Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on any &s;hame left in his face, that thus &s;hamefully abu&s;eth the names of learned and reverend men, &s;o directly contrary to theire words and meaning? Is there not cau&s;e to &s;u&s;pect, that the other authors are in like manner abu&s;ed; and that for the better hiding of his fraud, he forbeareth to quote any particular places? Being therefore convinced of depravatio~ in the places particularly quoted, we may pre&s;ume, that if the other places had been more pertinent, he would have given us &s;ome particular directi|ons al&s;o, for the finding of them. And the rather for that he can not be ignorant, that tho&s;e, whom &s;pecially he fighteth again&s;t in the&s;e arguments, doe rely upon the judgement of the Authors following, more then of the former.</P>
<P>Now to this Mai&s;ter Can affordeth nothing that may &s;oundly confirme the thing denyed, nor a&s;&s;ayeth to cleere Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons credite from abu&s;e of the Authors quoted by him for the ju&s;tification of his A&s;&s;umption; relying wholly on what &s;ome men may &s;ay: which if it were all true, as you &s;ee it in part evidently prooved fal&s;e, yet were no &s;ufficient proofe. Onely &s;aith, that <HI>Maister Bradshaw here casts his brethren of.</HI> pag. 224. 225.</P>
<P>But this is one of Mai&s;ter Cans la&s;t refuges and forlorne hopes, to tell us that others have <HI>&s;oundly prooved</HI> that before, that neither Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on hath proo|ved, nor Mai&s;ter Can him&s;elfe can ever make good. It &s;eemes the man gro|weth weary, and is almo&s;t tired out with his worke, when he is faine to fill up whole pages with &s;uch &s;tuff as this is.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The offices of pa&s;tors and teachers, which Chri&s;t hath appointed, are &s;uch, as they, which have them, mu&s;t be members of a true vi&s;ible Chu<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ch, and bound to one particular congregation for the mini&s;tery and government thereof.</P>
<P>But the offices of Prelates, Prie&s;ts and Deacons of the Church of England are &s;uch, as tho&s;e that have them, neede not be, neither in theire State can be, mem|bers of a true vi&s;ible Church, but of a fal&s;e; neither are bound to one particular congregation for the mini&s;tery and government thereof; but the Prelates are over whole Provinces and Dioce&s;&s;es; and other inferiour prie&s;ts may have in that State plurality of benefices and Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall cares, &amp;c. which none can deny.</P>
<PB N="44" REF="27">
<P>Therefore they are not the pa&s;tors &amp; teachers, which Chri&s;t hath appointed.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>Tho' &s;ome parts of the propo&s;ition be di&s;putable; yet becau&s;e others be&s;ides the Separation do holde the whole for truth; I will leave it in medio.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption is fal&s;e: E&s;pecially if it be under&s;tood (as it ought to be) of the offices of &s;uch Prelates, Prie&s;ts and Deacons, as are mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys. For mo&s;t of tho&s;e, which have &s;uch offices, are &amp; are bound to be members of true vi&s;ible Churches, and cannot in theire e&s;tate (they being in all points an&s;werable to the Laws) be members of a fal&s;e Church. They are all (&s;uch excepted, as have &s;peciall di&s;pen&s;ations) bound to one particular congre|gation: and may not by Law, have more cures then one; but admitting of a &s;econd the fir&s;t is void. Yea the Prelates them&s;elves, though in regard of theire Prelaticall office, they are Governeurs of whole Provinces and Dioce&s;&s;es; yet it is po&s;&s;ible for them notwith&s;tanding, to be members in theire e&s;tate, of a true vi&s;ible Church, and be bound (as are the Prelates of Scotland) to one particular congregation, for the &s;peciall mini&s;tery and government thereof.</P>
<P>But what man, except he were halfe frantick, would rea&s;on thus: <HI>Our mini|&s;ters may be Plurali&s;ts; therefore they neither are, nor can be true pastors and tea|chers?</HI> Is not this rather one of the honours, then blemi&s;hes of our mini&s;ters, that they may be Plurali&s;ts, and yet are not? If by our Laws theire own a&s;&s;em|blys were e&s;tabli&s;hed, if by the &s;ame Laws theire pa&s;tors and teachers might he non-re&s;idents, or plurali&s;ts, or wor&s;e, would they thinke them&s;elves ever the wor&s;e for this? would they not rather thinke them&s;elves the better, that they are not &s;o bad, as by mans Laws they might be?</P>
<P>Here M^r. Can flatly giveth over replying, leaving M^r. Iohn&s;on to &s;hift as well as he can for him&s;elfe; and falleth to mooving of many que&s;tions, which tho' they were all re&s;olved, yea and re&s;olved as he would have them, would not all helpe to make M^r. Iohn&s;ons halting argument &s;tand upright.</P>
<P N="1">1. Whereas Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, not &s;o peremptory as Mai&s;ter Can where doubt may well be of ought, leaveth the propo&s;ition, though que&s;tionable for &s;ome part of it, <HI>in medio;</HI> Mai&s;ter Can makes pag. 226. <HI>a quere, whether the mi|nistery of &s;uch Priests, as have no particular place to &s;erve in be unlawfull?</HI> &s;up|po&s;ing M^r. Brad&s;haw to imply as much, tho' there be nothing &s;poken by him that doth imply it; nor, were it granted, did it any whit help M. I^s. cau&s;e, which is to proove the mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, to be no true pa&s;tors and tea|chers; and that our Church-a&s;&s;emblys are generally to be &s;evered from.</P>
<P N="2"><PB N="45" REF="27">2. Becau&s;e Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw avoweth the <HI>a&s;&s;umption to be fal&s;e, being un|der&s;tood, as it ought, of &s;uch Prelates, Prie&s;ts and Deacons, as are min<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">rs <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 word"> Church-a&s;&s;emblys, &s;eeing that the most of &s;uch are, and are bound to be mem <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> of a true vi&s;ible Church:</HI> he mooveth thereupon a 2. quere: <HI>Whether &s;uch as <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 word"> not by Law bound to be &s;uch, be true pastors or no?</HI> Which againe whether it <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 word"> either &s;aid or denyed, Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons cau&s;e, and Mai&s;ter Cans likewi&s;e is <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> thereby &s;upported; &s;ince that it &s;tands them upon, to make good the generall. And this is therefore but to trifle and wa&s;t inke and paper to no purpo&s;e, in re|gard of that taske that the&s;e men have undertake~; the matter of the quere being by M^r. Can here mo&s;t fal&s;ly affirmed to be <HI>the main point in que&s;tion.</HI> Which yet if it were, it were either Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons or M^r. Cans part to determine, &amp; &s;o to argue upon it. But <HI>an A&s;&s;e,</HI> they &s;ay, <HI>when he groweth weary of his way,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">A&s;el<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters"> <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 span"> cum <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;u<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 word"> rit, <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 span"> verticu<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">. <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 word"> <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">|ron. ad Caet&agrave;.</NOTE> <HI>will be ready to turn in at every gate, or by land, that he meeteth with.</HI> Suppo&s;e &s;ome one of us, undertaking to proove M^r. Cans congregation to be (as they may ju&s;tly be deemed) a company of Schi&s;maticks; and having thus endeavou|red to evince it. <HI>Tho&s;e that have rent them&s;elves off from the Church-a&s;&s;emblys in England, are Schi&s;maticks. But Maister Cans congregation at Am&s;terdam con&s;i&s;ts of &s;uch as have rent them&s;elves off, from the vi&s;ible Churches of Chri&s;t in England,</HI> &amp;c. M^r. Can, or &s;ome other in defence of his congregation, &s;hould an&s;were, they deny the A&s;&s;umption: For that <HI>the mo&s;t of his congregation were never member of any vi&s;ible Church in England:</HI> Should the opponent here|upon reply nothing, but moove a quere to M^r. Can. <HI>What he thinks then of all tho&s;e that have been &s;ometime members of &s;ome Church-a&s;&s;embly in England;</HI> as if Mai&s;ter Can implyed by his an&s;were, that <HI>&s;uch indeed were Schi&s;maticks.</HI> Might he not be ju&s;tly laughed at for his labour? and yet ju&s;t &s;uch, and no other, is M^r. Cans manner of reply here.</P>
<P N="3">3. Whereas Mai&s;ter Bradshaw addeth, that <HI>&s;uch as were before &s;poken off, cannot in theire e&s;tate (they being in all points an&s;we|rable to the Laws<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> be members of a fae Church;</HI> he mooveth a 3. quere; <HI>VVhat if they be not in all points an&s;werable to the Law, are they then members of a fal&s;e Church? Indeed either his words cary &s;uch a meaning, or to me they &s;eeme non&s;en&s;e.</HI> A mo&s;t &s;en&s;eles inference.]</P>
<P>If a man had to deale with one that under&s;tood Schole-learning, he might tell him, that, <HI>A non po&s;&s;e in &s;ubjecto, ad e&s;&s;e in oppo&s;ito, non &s;equitur argu|mentum.</HI> But having to deale with Mai&s;ter Can, to whome every one &s;peakes non-&s;en&s;e, that &s;peaketh not &s;en&s;ele&s;ly like him&s;elfe, let us
<PB N="46" REF="28"> talke a little with him, though it be &s;omewhat tedious in his owne language. If a man then &s;hould &s;ay; <HI>None of tho&s;e that laugh at Mai&s;ter Cans ab&s;urditys, can be A&s;&s;es;</HI> becau&s;e <HI>A&s;inus non e&s;t animal ri&s;ible;</HI> his words mu&s;t needs ei|ther cary &s;uch a meaning, that <HI>all that doe not laugh at them, are A&s;&s;es:</HI> or el&s;e (to Mai&s;ter Cans &s;en&s;e) they &s;eeme to <HI>&s;peake non-&s;en&s;e.</HI> And this s ju&s;t Mai&s;ter Cans inference from Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws words, and his wi&s;e cen&s;ure pa&s;t upon them.</P>
<P N="4">4. Whereas Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;aith; That <HI>all ministers among us, &s;uch excepted, as have &s;peciall di&s;pen&s;ation, are bound</HI> (to wit, by the Laws of our land) <HI>to one particular congregation; and may not by Law have more cures then one;</HI> here Mai&s;ter Can comes in with an other quere; <HI>Have not &s;ome in the Church of Rome di&s;pen&s;ations to have more Cures then one? yes &s;urely. Now doe the&s;e &s;peciall di&s;pen&s;ations make the act Lawfull? &s;uch an inference M^r. Brad|shaws words have, or el&s;e the man talkes he knowes not what.]</HI> Did any man li|ving ever heare a man rave in this manner, unles he were utterly di&s;tracted? Sure if M^r. Can knew what he talked, he would never talke in this mad man|ner. The Lawfullnes of pluralitys, or the unlawfullnes of them is no point here in que&s;tion. Howbeit, that which Mai&s;ter Can would inferre from Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws words, doth all well follow from them, as if one &s;hould &s;ay: <HI>He that shall &s;ay, an English man can not without danger of the Law be a Schi&s;matick, unles he get him to Amsterdam doeth import that get|ting thither makes his action Lawfull or el&s;e the man talkes he knowes not what.</HI> Or thus; <HI>He that &s;aith, a man can not in England, with|out danger of Law, except he keepe him&s;elfe clo&s;e, be a Famili&s;t, or a Seperati&s;t; doth thereby import, that a man, if he keepe him&s;elfe clo&s;e, may Lawfully be either, or el&s;e he talkes he knowes not what.</HI> The&s;e are ju&s;t the &s;ame for frame and force of con&s;equence with Mai&s;ter Cans inference here: which if they be not mad ones, in any rea&s;onable mans judge|ment, let me be deemed a mad man.</P>
<P>The re&s;idue here adjoyn'd is all &s;tuff of the &s;ame making. He &s;aith. <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaw taketh it for granted, that theire Churches are true; but brings no proofe for it.</HI> As if Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw were to proove them true, and not M^r. Iohn&s;on rather to proove them fal&s;e; which till he hath done they are &s;o to be e&s;teemed. The pri&s;oner accu&s;ed is not to be condemned as guilty, till good evidence be given in again&s;t him: nor is he to proove him&s;elfe guiltles, but to an&s;were in his own defence again&s;t &s;uch evidence as his accu&s;ers &s;hall bring again&s;t him to proove him guilty.</P>
<PB N="47" REF="28">
<P>And thus you &s;ee how worthily Mai&s;ter Gan hath acquitted him&s;elfe for this &s;ixt Argument: Let us &s;ee if he have any better for the &s;eventh.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The offices, condition and government of Prelates, Prie&s;ts and Deacons, are &s;uch as doe many ways impaire the authority, &s;upremacy and dignity of Kings, and all other magi&s;trates, both in civill and Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall cau&s;es. For the Pre|lates will have theire pre&s;ence, voice and authority to be at Parliaments for ena|cting of Laws and Statutes for the common wealth: They are Rulers of whole Provinces and Dioce&s;&s;es in the Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall cau&s;es thereof. In civill State and dignity &s;ome of them are above all, and all of them above &s;ome of the nobles, ju&s;tices and other Magi&s;trates of the Land. Them&s;elves, theire Courts and of|ficers handle and determine &s;undry civill cau&s;es and affaires, appertaining to the magi&s;tracy. They inflict civill mulcts and puni&s;hments; in theire forbidden times they give licence to marry: the beneficed Prie&s;ts doe &s;weare canonicall obedience to the Prelates. All the Prie&s;ts and Deacons are exempt from the Magi&s;trates juri&s;diction in divers things appertaining unto them, &amp; an&s;werable onely or chiefly to the Prelates and theire officers.</P>
<P>Therefore they are not the onely pa&s;tors and teachers &s;poken of Ephe&s;. 4.11.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Brads<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">aw.</HI></P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption is fal&s;e: neither doe the in&s;tances proove the &s;ame</P>
<P N="1">1. The Prelates claime their voices in Parliaments, not as divine ordinan|ces appertaining to their Prelate&s;hip; but as an honour annexed to the &s;ame by the civill Magi&s;trate.</P>
<P N="2">2. Theire authority in cau&s;es Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall over Provinces, &amp;c. is either &s;uch as the civill magi&s;trate him&s;elfe may execute, and admini&s;ter in his owne per&s;on, if he plea&s;e; or &s;uch as is not for them, as they are magi&s;trates, to exe|cute. The fir&s;t &s;ort they admini&s;ter, onely by vertue of the Magi&s;trates own eommi&s;&s;ion, and therein they can not impaire either his dignity or &s;upremacy; much le&s;&s;e in the other part of theire authority, which belongeth not to the Ma|gi&s;trates them&s;elves to execute, e&s;pecially when they u&s;e it not neither without theire con&s;ent, licence and approbation.</P>
<P N="3">3. That all are above &s;ome, and &s;ome above all of the nobles, ju&s;tices, &amp;c. is a free and voluntary honour granted unto them by the civill Magi&s;trate, and held in tenure from him, and not claimed, as I thinke, as belonging to their Epi&s;|copall function, by divine right.</P>
<P N="4"><PB N="48" REF="29">4. Theire Courts determine no other civill cau&s;es, than the civill Magi|&s;trate and his Laws doe permitt, or if they doe, the fault is in the per&s;ons, and not in the Prelate&s;hip. Further, they inflict civill puni&s;hments, give licencys&punc; exact oaths, &amp;c. by authority from the Magi&s;trate, who&s;e Sub&s;titutes therein they are. And therefore the Prelates neither in this, nor in any of the former in&s;tances, can be &s;aid to impaire the dignity, authority, or &s;upremacy of the ci|vill Magi&s;trate; when herein they doe all things in and by the protection of his authority. Much le&s;&s;e can other inferiour mini&s;ters, who have no dealing in the afore&s;aid matters.</P>
<P>La&s;tly if all our mini&s;ters be exempt from the Magi&s;trates juri&s;diction, in &s;ome things appertaining unto them (but wherein I know not) this very exem|ption it &s;elfe, is an act of the Magi&s;trates juri&s;diction, and depends onely upon his plea&s;ure: and how can it then any wayes impaire the &s;ame?</P>
<P>The an&s;were to this Argument Mai&s;ter Can thus turns over; that <HI>the matter is not much, whether the government, which the Bishops exerci&s;e in ci|vill and Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall ca&s;es, doe impaire the dignity, autority, or &s;upre|macy of the civill Magi&s;trate, &s;eeing the &s;ame is unlawfull and Anti|chri&s;tian; as,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>we have before prooved.</HI> Onely flieth in the An&s;werers face, taxing him, with <HI>notorious boldnes, in denying that</HI> (though he give good rea&s;ons for it, unto which he retur|neth no<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> a word) <HI>that the non-conformi&s;ts confidently affirme;</HI> and with <HI>daubing up of vile things,</HI> as being <HI>a man, that cares not how he loo&s;e the peace of con&s;cience, &s;o he may gaine a &s;uppo&s;ed victory,</HI> and that <HI>he can have a &s;mall comfort in this writings.</HI></P>
<P>And this is the u&s;uall manner of Mai&s;ter Cans confutation; the very relation whereof is refutation &s;ufficient, and enough to &s;hew any indifferent and intel|ligent Reader, what a manner of di&s;putant this man is.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>Hitherto Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on hath dealt by Syllogi&s;mes, &s;uch as they are: now for a conclu&s;ion of this fir&s;t argument, he &s;hootes at rovers, as followeth.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>To this end divers other rea&s;ons might be alleadged. For example, if they &s;ay, that Arch-Bi&s;hops have the Pa&s;tors office, then they have but two, if Lord-Bi&s;hops, then but 26. &amp; what office then have the Arch-Bi&s;hops among them?
<PB N="49" REF="29"> if the other Prie&s;ts, then what office have the Arch-Bi&s;hops and Bi&s;hops? &s;ee|ing God hath ordained no higher ordinary Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall office; as &s;ome of them&s;elves acknowledge. If they &s;ay, the Deacons have the Pa&s;tors office, the &s;ame ab&s;urdity followeth, as in the former: be&s;ides that the workes of the Dea|cons office are oppo&s;ed to the worke of the mini&s;tery, Act. 6.2. with Eph. 4.11. Rom. 12.8. if they &s;hould &s;ay, they have the teachers office, it would be known, which of theire officers have it among them, and to whome they are adjoyned for the worke of the mini&s;tery, as teachers are to pa&s;tors; and what office the re&s;t have; whome they account to have the teachers office; and whether the teachers &s;poken of Eph. 4.11. mu&s;t fir&s;t be Deacons, and then Prie&s;ts and pro|mi&s;e obedience to the Prelates; and that al&s;o as to theire ordinaries, and be &s;i|lenced and depo&s;ed at theire plea&s;ures.</P>
<P><HI>W. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>Here he thinkes he hath knit &s;uch a Gordian knott, as cannot be untyed, without a &s;word or a bill. But the &s;implicity of the man is herein to be lau|ghed at.</P>
<P>For 1. Though &s;ome &s;hould &s;ay, that either our Arch-Bi&s;hops, or Bi&s;hops have the Pa&s;tors office, yet therein they doe not exclude the other mini&s;ters, from that which is the &s;ub&s;tance and effect of that office, though they &s;hould from the name: no nor from the name neither. But &s;hould therein, onely make degrees of Pa&s;tors: vizt. of Arch-Bi&s;hops over Bi&s;hops, and theire Dioce&s;&s;es, of Bi&s;hops over Mini&s;ters and theire Churches, and of mini&s;ters over their own congregations. Leaving unto them (notwith&s;tanding the &s;uperiority over the other Pa&s;tors) that main and &s;ub&s;tanciall office of the pa&s;tor, which is enough to define and denominate a Pa&s;tor. And therefore they may make &s;uch Pa&s;tors as are over whole Provinces, but two; and &s;uch as are over whole Dioce&s;&s;es but 26. And yet holde al&s;o without any ab&s;urdity; that there are al&s;o as many Pa|&s;tors be&s;ides, as there are mini&s;ters of particular congregations. And though it &s;hould be granted, that herein they were deceaved in making Provinciall and Dioce&s;&s;an Pa&s;tors; yet the &s;orting of unproper Pa&s;tors with true, or the &s;ubje|cting of true Pa&s;tors unto other &s;orts of Pa&s;tors, doth not nece&s;&s;arily make the true Pa&s;tors fal<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e; &s;o long as under them they performe the maine and &s;ub&s;tan|tiall dutys of true Pa&s;tors; which all the mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys doe, or by the Laws ought to doe.</P>
<P N="2">2. If any holde, that the mini&s;ters of particular congregations onely are Pa&s;tors, then they may, without any ab&s;urdity holde, that the Arch-Bi&s;hops &amp;
<PB N="50" REF="30"> Bi&s;hops are generall commi&s;&s;ioners under the King to &s;ee that the Pa&s;tors doe theire dutys; and in that regard, may al&s;o metaphorically, and in an other &s;en&s;e be called Pa&s;tors; as Princes them&s;elves are &s;o called in good and approoved Authors. And what ab&s;urdity can follow upon this? Or what if they, which h<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">lde the mini&s;ters of particular congregations to be Pa&s;tors, could not tell what to make of the office of Arch-Bi&s;hops and Bi&s;hops, what's that to the purpo&s;e? Are not our mini&s;ters and teachers therefore Pa&s;tors, becau&s;e they which &s;hall holde them to be &s;o, can not tell what to make of the calling of Arch-Bi&s;hops &amp; Bi&s;hops.</P>
<P N="2">2. Though this &s;hould be yeelded unto him, that all pa&s;tors are equall, &amp; that the pa&s;tors of particular congregations, are the highe&s;t ordinary Eccle&s;ia&s;ti|call officers: yet &s;hould this make nothing to the confirming of this conceit that our mini&s;ters are not therefore true pa&s;tors &amp; teachers, becau&s;e then Arch-Bi&s;hops and Bi&s;hops &s;hould be encluded. For this doth not exclude them, from being commi&s;&s;ioners, and vi&s;itors in cau&s;es Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall, under the King, over the Pa&s;tors and Churches of &s;uch and &s;uch Provinces and Dioce&s;&s;es; which is to give them theire principall honour and due.</P>
<P>For an&s;were to this, Mai&s;ter Can tells us, that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw <HI>in the&s;e pa|ges sheweth him&s;elfe a mi&s;erable informer and &s;etler of the con&s;cience: for his coun&s;ell is much to this effect. So a man holde &s;omething, it is no matter what it be, nor how ungroundedly taken up.</HI></P>
<P>But by his leave, here is no &s;uch matter; nor doth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw either avow or imply any &s;uch thing: tho' in &s;ome ca&s;es it is not nece&s;&s;ary, that a man bolde ought; the matter either not concerning him to know, or his weake brain being not able to apprehend grounds &s;ufficient to build a judgement on either way. And in &s;ome points againe, men may be of divers mindes; yea it cannot but &s;o be, while they know but in part: the matter controverred being not &s;o cleare. But Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;heweth onely hereby, the weakenes of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons &s;uppo<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ed indi&s;&s;oluble, dilemma, or his double-horned argument; that whether a man take it by the one horne or the other (as &s;ome may be herein of one minde, &s;ome of an other; and whether they be of this or that minde, they may put Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on to proove either) he may ea&s;ily overturn it. For that no &s;uch ab&s;urdity, as M^r. Iohn&s;on would inferre, doth en&s;ue nece&s;&s;arily, on the averring it of either part.</P>
<P>But hereupon M^r. Cans an&s;were to M^r. Brad&s;haws <HI>ifs</HI> and <HI>whats</HI> particu|larly, as he &s;aith.</P>
<P N="1"><PB N="51" REF="30">1. <HI>VVhat if &s;ome, &s;aith he, shall &s;ay that our Arch-Bishops and Bishops have the Pa&s;tors office? An&s;were. Then they shall &s;peake untruely or you your &s;elves beare fal&s;e witnes against them in affirming that they are not pastors and teachers, neither any true mini&s;ters at all in the Church of God.</HI></P>
<P>Yea but Ma<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ter Can remember your &s;elfe, that the que&s;tion is not, what ver|dict your &s;elfe, or I know not, who will pa&s;&s;e in this kinde: but whether this granted would inferre, that the whole land hath no more pa&s;tors th n they; and this &s;uppo&s;ed, exclude all other mini&s;ters among us, from that which is the ef|fect and &s;ub&s;tance of the office. So that Mai&s;ter Can, who &s;eemeth better ac|quainted with loo&s;e pratling, then with Scholarlike di&s;puting, may well &s;et him&s;elfe down, and &s;u&s;pend his &s;entence, till he be called to tell us his minde, that no man here asketh him in this matter: Or, if he will doe that which the per&s;on of a replier, which he hath undertaken, exacteth of him; an<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">were the que|&s;tion indeed by Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw propounded, whether that will hence follow, that his fellow: I affirms.</P>
<P>His an&s;weres to the other querys, being of the &s;ame &s;tamp, that this is, I wil|lingly could let p<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;&s;e, (for to what end &s;hould I further wa&s;t time and blot pa|per with matter wholly impertinent?) as that <HI>to h<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">l<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e the Bishops pa&s;tors meta|phorically &s;o tearmed, as commi&s;sioners and vi&s;itors of the mini&s;ters of particular congregations, in cau&s;es Eccle&s;iasticall under the King is contrary to theire Law, and directly again&s;t theire profe&s;sion a d pra|cti&s;e: and the magistrate hath no autority from God to &s;et up &s;uch of|ficers:</HI> and that <HI>to holde the mini&s;ters of our particular co<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">grega|tions to be Pastors&punc; there is no rea&s;on for it. Becau&s;e they have no true calling unto the office, nor doe perform the &s;ubstantiall dutys thereof.</HI> Whereas the que&s;tion here, is not, whither the&s;e be &s;o or no; but whether upon the &s;uppo&s;ition of them &s;o to be; &s;uch ab&s;urditys, as M^r. Iohn&s;on avoweth, will en&s;ue. Onely I relate them, that it may be &s;eene what they are, &amp; how imper|tinent to the point in que&s;tion at pre&s;ent.</P>
<P>After the&s;e an&s;weres of his thus given to que&s;tions not a&s;ked; he returneth to the wonted flowers of his railing Rhetorick, tearming all that Mai&s;ter Brad|&s;haw hath here &s;poken, <HI>ba&s;e &s;tuff, &s;illie and childish words, worthy to be laughed at, having neither rime nor good rea&s;on:</HI> in his peremptory manner againe cen&s;u|reth M^r. Brad&s;haw for one that <HI>&s;inned herein fearefully again&s;t his knowledge and con&s;cience:</HI> and demandeth, <HI>is not here wit to di&s;pute with ifs and thoes?</HI></P>
<PB N="52" REF="31">
<P>It is true indeed, a man that intends not to di&s;tingui&s;h things di&s;crepant, but to confound and jumble alltogether, and to patch together things that have no de|pendance one upon the other, may di&s;pute without <HI>ifs</HI> and <HI>thoes.</HI> But that it &s;hould be deemed a fault in di&s;pute, to u&s;e <HI>ifs,</HI> where the dependance of one thing upon an other is que&s;tioned; and <HI>thoes,</HI> where things di&s;crepant are to be &s;evered and di&s;tingui&s;hed, was a thing never heard in the art of rea&s;oning be|fore. And when Mai&s;ter Can therefore hath framed us a new Logick of his own, we &s;hall learne, it may be, if we like it at lea&s;t, to amend this fault. Meane while let him fa&s;ten the forng of his cen&s;ure herein upon his brother Iohn&s;on in the fir&s;t place, who di&s;putes all with <HI>ifs,</HI> before he turne it upon Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw who doth but follow him therein.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="4">4. Concerning the teachers office (not to contend needle&s;ly with him about the nature and quality thereof, but to &s;uppo&s;e a teacher in that &s;en&s;e, which he meaneth) This may rea&s;onably be held: That &s;ome of our mini&s;ters, whether Prie&s;ts or Deacons &s;o called, or whether par&s;ons, vicars, curates or &s;tipendarys, are pa&s;tors, and &s;ome teachers. That &s;o many of them as have and u&s;e the gift, not onely of doctrine and in&s;truction, but of Exhortation, are pa&s;tors; that tho&s;e which want the power of Exhortation, and yet have and u&s;e the gift of in&s;tru|ction and doctrine, are &s;uch teachers as he meaneth. And therefore, herein al&s;o, if it &s;hould be yeelded unto him, that it were fit that every congregation &s;hould have both the&s;e offices: and that the teacher &s;hould be the pa&s;tors A&s;&s;i&s;tant, yet it doth not follow, but that in want of &s;ufficient men, for both theire offices in every congregation, &s;ome may enjoy one and &s;ome an other. For if the Chur|ches of theire own way and con&s;titution, may be without both pa&s;tors &amp; tea|chers, &amp; that for a long time, till men may be cho&s;en unto that office; why may not a Church much more in the like nece&s;&s;ity, retaine a pa&s;tor without a tea|cher; or a teacher without a pa&s;tor? can he proove by any colour out of Gods word that one cannot be called unto, and execute the office of a pa&s;tor, untill he have a teacher to a&s;&s;i&s;t him? or that he cannot execute the office of a Doctor, except he doe it as an actuall a&s;&s;i&s;tant of &s;ome pa&s;tor? if not, then is this a mo&s;t frivolous demand; when he a&s;kes, to whome our teachers are adjoyned, for the worke of theire mini&s;tery: neither doe the places he quoteth (Eph. 4.11. Rom. 12.7.) proove any &s;uch matter.</P>
<P>To this is nothing replyed, but that <HI>Maister Bradshaw telleth us that &s;ome of the<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">re pri<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ts are pastors, and &s;ome teachers;</HI> but Mai&s;ter Can hath <HI>prooved
<PB N="53" REF="31"> the contrary;</HI> and therefore <HI>both now and hereafter doth purpo&s;e to let his idle re|petitions pa&s;&s;e.</HI> And is not this a Scholarlike kinde of confuting.</P>
<P>Onely he would be informed, <HI>whether dumb ministers be pa&s;tors or teachers:</HI> which he may be then an&s;wered, when he hath &s;hewed, what reference it hath to the argument, that we now have in hand. For it is as if one &s;hould &s;ay: <HI>Vnles you determine whether dumb mini&s;ters be pastors or teachers, you cannot an&s;were Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons argument, that meddles not with them.</HI> Yea adde I might, that it nothing availeth them, in the maine matter, at fir&s;t propounded. For though it were never determined, <HI>whether dumb mini&s;ters, are true pa&s;tors and teachers.</HI> or determined as he would have it, that they are neither of both; yet how could that ju&s;tify a generall &s;epararion even from &s;uch congregations, where none &s;uch are; but men able, &amp; con&s;cionable in u&s;ing theire abilitys for the benefit of their people?</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="5">5. As idle and impertinent is that demand, which followeth, whether the teachers &s;poken of Eph. 4.11. mu&s;t fir&s;t be Deacons, and then Prie&s;ts, and pro|mi&s;e obedience to Prelates and to be &s;ilenced, and depo&s;ed at theire plea&s;ures. For what if no &s;uch matters be required of teachers by Saint Paul, either in that or any other place, doth it thereupon follow, that theire &s;ubmi&s;&s;ion to &s;uch things, makes them no teachers? may not magi&s;trates and others al&s;o, require &s;ome things of teachers, not required by the Apo&s;tles, but they mu&s;t needes thereupon become no teachers? But what repugnancy is therein this matter, to the office of a teacher? to be a Deacon in the intent of our Laws, what is it, but (as him&s;elfe, out of our booke of ordination hath in effect publi&s;hed it) to reade the Scriptures, and to pray in the Church, to catechi&s;e the younger &s;ort, to bap|tize and to preach, if the Bi&s;hop &s;hall thinke him fitt? what is it to be a Prie&s;t or Pre&s;byter in our Law? hath not him&s;elfe al&s;o taught us? namely, to have au|tority to preach the word, and to mini&s;ter the holy Sacraments in the Congre|gation, where he &s;hall be appointed? what obedience doe they promi&s;e to the Prelates in the intent of the Law, but onely in things that they &s;hall judge ho|ne&s;t and Lawfull, and not repugnant to the word of God? what is it to be &s;ilen|ced and depo&s;ed, but to forbeare to mini&s;ter publikely upon the Magi&s;trates plea&s;ure: for the Bi&s;hops plea&s;ure, &s;o farre forth as they proceede according to the Laws is the Magi&s;trates plea&s;ure. Otherwi&s;e it is but a per&s;onall fault. And wherein, I marvei<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> doe any of the&s;e acts &s;o oppugne the office of a teacher,
<PB N="54" REF="32"> that they can not &s;tand together? where doth Paul forbid any of tho&s;e acts to the teacher? or if he &s;hould, doth every act forbidden to a teacher, make him no teacher?</P>
<P>Mai&s;ter Can. 1. To the quere, <HI>whether Magi&s;trates may not require &s;omething of teachers, not required by the Apo&s;tles:</HI> he an&s;wereth thus; <HI>yes for&s;ooth, But if they require before a man shall be a Teacher, that he enter into the mini&s;tery by an unlawfull and po|pish vocation, and shall execute afterwards the &s;ame in an idolatrous manner; if he al&s;o in this doe obey them, he mu&s;t needes thereupon be|come no true mini&s;ter: and &s;uch is theire cau&s;e by theire own confe&s;|&s;ion. And therefore the que&s;tion, as he propoundeth it, is deceitfull, &amp; impertinent.</HI></P>
<P>Nay rather, your whole rablement here is idle and impertinent. For what is all this to that, that Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on propoundeth, of <HI>being Deacons fir&s;t, and then Priests? to be a Deacon</HI> with us, being as Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on acknowledgeth, <HI>to reade the Scriptures, and to pray in the Church, to Catechi&s;e th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> younger &s;ort, to bapti&s;e and to preach, if the Bishop shall thinke him fit.</HI> For, as for that which he telleth us, of <HI>our own confe&s;&s;ion;</HI> Neither is Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw nor any other, bound to admitt ought avowed by others, be they <HI>non-conformists,</HI> or w<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">at they will; more then Mai&s;ter Can or Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on to admitt, what Mai&s;ter Smith and his abetters &s;ay of theire <HI>triformed presbytery;</HI> allbeit they be <HI>Separa|ti&s;ts</HI> as well as them&s;elves.</P>
<P N="2">2. To the&s;e words of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, (wherein Mai&s;ter Can tells us that <HI>he excu&s;eth the Prie&s;ts, which obey the Bishops) what obedience doe they promi&s;e to Prelates, but onely in things that they shall judge honest and Lawfull, and not repugnant to the word of God? If this manner of arguing,</HI> &s;aith he, (<HI>an&s;wering,</HI> he should &s;ay, if he under&s;tood but the very tearmes of di&s;pute) <HI>what corruptions &s;o abominable, but may get countenance? under &s;uch preten&s;e any hereticke may main|taine the gro&s;&s;e&s;t errors, which he holdes and practi&s;eth.</HI></P>
<P>A man may truely &s;ay here, in Mai&s;ter Cans own words, <HI>is this wit or &s;en&s;e either, in arguing with &s;uch an</HI> if <HI>as this is?</HI> For how doth, yea how can M^r. Can with all the wit he hath, (which I confe&s;&s;e is not over much) make good this inference? One would thinke, that &s;uch a gro&s;&s;e and abominable imputa|tion, &s;o peremptorily charged, &s;hould have been &s;trongly backed, and clearely
<PB N="55" REF="32"> made good, whereas here is never a title, that may helpe to give any colour at all unto it; much le&s;&s;e to &s;hew the nece&s;&s;ity of any &s;uch inference. And indeed, who is &s;o &s;en&s;eles or void of ordinary apprehen&s;io~, that will take this for a &s;ound con&s;equence; <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaw &s;aith, that the ministers of the Churches in England promi&s;e not obedience to the Prelates but in things onely that they shall judge hone&s;t and Lawfull, and not contrary to Gods word. Ergo any Arrian, or Familist, or Papist, may under the like preten&s;e maintaine, that Chri&s;t is not God, or tooke not flesh of the Virgin Mary, or is made of a peece of breade,</HI> &amp;c.</P>
<P>His office was to have di&s;prooved that which Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;aid, &amp; not to foame out his owne filth and folly in &s;uch froathy and un&s;avory &s;tuff as this is.</P>
<P>And here he falleth againe, as his wont is, into an invective again&s;t Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw as <HI>ju&s;tifying the&s;e practi&s;es</HI> in this worke of his&punc; <HI>that el&s;where he con|demnes,</HI> of which before hath been &s;poken, and which till Mai&s;ter Can &s;hall by &s;ound proofe make good, he is not therefore the more guilty of, then the man in the moone, but Mai&s;ter Can &s;tandeth ju&s;tly charged with a calumnie, worthily deem'd mo&s;t unju&s;t.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Whereas &s;ome alledge, that the people were to heare the Scribes and Phari|&s;eys &s;itting in Mo&s;es chaire. It is to be noted that they were Levites &amp; Prie&s;ts, and therefore had the true offices appointed by Mo&s;es. This therefore is no|thing for a fal&s;e mini&s;tery, &s;uch as theires is prooved to be. Further to be a Pha|ri&s;e, was not to have a new kinde of mini&s;tery, but to be of a &s;peciall &s;ect a|mong the Iews that pretended more &s;trict ob&s;ervances of the Law, and might be of any tribe. La&s;tly though they were corrupt yet did they holde, that every true mini&s;ter mu&s;t be from heaven: &amp; this have the forward preachers acknow|ledged as T. C. pag. 83.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>Here ab&s;urdly and childi&s;hly he goes about to an&s;were &s;uch an objection, as no body ever made, again&s;t any thing contained in the former Argument. This argument onely in generall is u&s;ed to &s;hew, that &s;ome corruptions in mini&s;ters and Churches, are not of that nature, that man &s;hould therefo e &s;eparate from all &s;pirituall communion with them. And where he &s;aith, that <HI>this is nothing for
<PB N="56" REF="33"> any fal&s;e mini&s;tery never ordained of the Lord, &s;uch as ours is prooved to be:</HI> No man ever brought it to proove any &s;uch matter; but onely to proove, that &s;uch corruptions as are in our mini&s;tery, ought no more to hinder communion with our mini&s;ters, then the corruption in the mini&s;tery of the Scribes and Phari&s;ees, did hinder the communion with theire mini&s;tery: and that the corruptions in our mini&s;tery doe no more argue our mini&s;ters to be fal&s;e mini&s;ters, then theire corruptions did argue them to be fal&s;e mini&s;ters. Neither hath he brought any argument, to proove our mini&s;ters fal&s;e mini&s;ters, but either &s;uch corruptions as the Scribes and Phari&s;ees were guilty of, in as high, if not a higher degree, or in re&s;pect of theire names, in that they are called Prie&s;ts and Deacons. So that if the Scribes and Phari&s;ees were true mini&s;ters, notwith&s;tanding theire names, &amp; other corruptions, our mini&s;ters cannot be fal&s;e, in regard of the like names and corruptions.</P>
<P>Further more if to be expounders of the Law, be &s;ufficient to argue theire mini&s;tery to be a true mini&s;tery, notwith&s;tanding theire names of Scribes and Phari&s;ees, with other vile and gro&s;&s;e corruptions, why may not preaching of the word, and admini&s;tration of the Sacraments, be &s;ufficient to argue our mini|&s;ters to be true pa&s;tors and teachers, notwith&s;tanding that in the mouth of the Law, they are &s;ometimes called Prie&s;ts and Deacons. For otherwi&s;e in the mouthes of men, even of the Bi&s;hops them&s;elves they are not &s;o called; except &s;ometimes by metaphoricall allu&s;ions to the Leviticall Prie&s;thood: but they are u&s;ually &s;o called onely by prophane Athei&s;ts, or ignorant people, with whome in this point the Separation goeth hand in hand.</P>
<P N="2">2. To be a Phari&s;ee, was not onely (as he minceth the matter) <HI>to be of a &s;peciall Sect amongst the Jews, that pretended more &s;trict ob&s;ervances of the Law then others;</HI> but all&s;o (which as it is to be feared, with a fraudulent minde he con|cealeth) to joine many humane Traditions, and will wor&s;hips to the wor&s;hip &amp; &s;ervice of God; (whereby they are &s;aid, by Chri&s;t him&s;elfe, <HI>in vaine to worship God,</HI> and <HI>to make the commandements of God of none effect,</HI>) Making more ac|count of, and urging with more &s;everity, the &s;aid traditions, then Gods owne Lawes. And in like manner we affirme, that to be a Prie&s;t and Deacon in the intent of the Laws (what&s;oever the words may ring to the contrary in &s;ome mens eares) is, at the wor&s;t, to be &s;uch a kinde of pa&s;tor and teacher, as is con|tent over &amp; be&s;ides tho&s;e dutys of the mini&s;tery, which Chri&s;t requires of them, to yeeld conformity all&s;o to humane traditions, of no wor&s;e nature and quality in them&s;elves, then tho&s;e which the Phari&s;ees u&s;ed in or about Gods &s;ervice: wherein to &s;uppo&s;e that they &s;in, yet cannot this theire &s;in be &s;o repugnant to
<PB N="57" REF="33"> the mini&s;tery of Chri&s;t, as that of the Scribes and Phari&s;ees (which they are for|ced to acknowledge to be a true mini&s;tery) in that they were the urgers of tra|ditions; whereas our mini&s;ters (for the mo&s;t part) onely yeeld unto them, either in obedience and love, or feare, of the Magi&s;trate that commands them.</P>
<P>La&s;tly whereas he argues them true mini&s;ters by this, that <HI>though they were very corrupt, yet they did &s;till holde that every mini&s;tery mu&s;t be from heaven, and not of men;</HI> it de&s;erveth rather to be laughed at, then an&s;wered. For may not, yea doe not the fal&s;e&s;t mini&s;ters that are, or ever have been, holde &s;o much, at lea&s;t in &s;uch a &s;en&s;e and meaning, as the Phari&s;ees might holde it? and can he name any among&s;t us, that holdes not as much?</P>
<P>As M^r. Can ended his la&s;t di&s;cour&s;e with a loud lie; &s;o he beginneth the next with the like. <HI>Heere Mai&s;ter Bradshaw,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>be&s;tirs him&s;elfe to proove their mini&s;terie good by the Scribes and Phari&s;ees.</HI> Whereas M^r. Brad&s;haw in plaine tearms affirmeth, that this argument from the Scribes and Phari&s;ees, is u&s;ed one|ly to &s;hew, that &s;ome corruptions in mini&s;ters or Churches, are not of that na|ture, that men &s;hould therefore &s;eparate from all &s;pirituall communion with them; &amp; that none of ours ever alledged it to &s;uch purpo&s;e, as Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on pretendeth.</P>
<P>To little purpo&s;e therefore is all that en&s;ueth, &s;ave that he &s;erveth in Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons more then twice &s;odden coleworts again. <HI>For first, how&s;oever,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>they had new names, and in many things were very corrupt, yet they &s;ate in Mo&s;es chaire, i. e. came rightly and Lawfully to the Leviticall and Prie&s;tly offices, which they executed in the Church of God, but theire mini&s;ters, as we have shewed it under their owne hands, doe want this true calling&punc; and therefore the compari&s;on holdes not.</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. If M^r. Iohn&s;on be plea&s;ed to make &s;uch objections as none of us ever made; or M^r. Can &s;uch compari&s;ons as we never dreamed of, are we bound to make good either M^r. Iohn&s;ons fictions, or Mai&s;ter Cans fancies?</P>
<P N="2">2. Can he &s;hew this that he &s;aith <HI>under Mai&s;ter Bradshaws hand,</HI> or un|der the hands of I know not what di&s;contented per&s;ons (&s;ome <HI>Non-conformi&s;ts,</HI> he meaneth) that may have &s;aid much more in theire heate then they are able to make good, is no binding argument to others; no more then Mai&s;ter Can will account it &s;uch to him&s;elfe, what we can &s;hew under the hands of them&s;elves, that is, of Schi&s;maticall Separati&s;ts like them&s;elves, concerning theire pre&s;byte|rie, and Church-con&s;titution. But &s;uch weapons as the&s;e mu&s;t &s;erve, where no better can be had.</P>
<P N="3"><PB N="58" REF="34">3. How doth he proove, this to be the meaning of tho&s;e words: <HI>They &s;it in Mo&s;es chaire, that is, they came rightly and Lawfullie to the Leviticall and Prie&s;tly offices.</HI> For&s;ooth he points us to <HI>Pareus.</HI> For in the margine, with a &s;tar in the context to guide us to it, <HI>See Pareus,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>on Math.</HI> 23.2. and that we may not mi&s;&s;e, but be &s;ure to finde it there ju&s;t &s;o as he &s;aith here, he giveth us the page too, <HI>page</HI> 578.</P>
<P>Now &s;uppo&s;e that Pareus had averred the very &s;ame that he here doth; yet were it but as if I &s;hould tell M^r. Can that <HI>the Democraticall exerci&s;e of Church-cen&s;ures in his congregation is unwarrantable, and ill grounded on Chri&s;ts words. Math.</HI> 18.17. And for proofe of it point him, as well I might doe, to <HI>Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on</HI> upon the place.</P>
<P>But as him&s;elfe &s;peaketh, (though mo&s;t unju&s;tly of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw in this very page) <HI>beholde the forehead of the man.</HI> Pareus in that very place, that he pointeth us unto, &s;ayeth the very direct contrary to that for which Mai&s;ter Can here produceth him; to wit, that <HI>the Scribes and Phari&s;ees are &s;aid to &s;it in Mo|&s;es chaire, becau&s;e they came rightly and Lawfully to the Leviticall and Prie&s;tly offices.</HI> For Pareus &s;aith expre&s;ly, that they were <HI>wrongfull invaders und entru|ders</HI> of them&s;elves into that power &amp; place that God had a&s;&s;igned to the Prie&s;ts and Levites, &amp; not to them. Let me give thee, good Reader, though it be &s;ome|what tedious, (that the hone&s;tie and con&s;cience of this man may the better ap|peare) Pareus his owne words at large.</P>
<P><HI>It is not ob&s;cure,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>that by the phra&s;e of &s;itting in Mo&s;es chaire is &s;ignifyed the office of teaching publickely, and delivering the doctrine or Law of Mo&s;es: he doth not derogate from them&punc; but attri|bute to them for the pre&s;ent the ordinary function of teaching: but withall he implieth, that this &s;ect had without regard of right or wrong inva|ded the chaire, at the fir&s;t originall, long &s;ince, given in charge by God to the Prie&s;ts and Levites. Hitherto &s;aith he they have &s;et, that is, in|throni&s;ed them&s;elves in Mo&s;es chaire, which they now holde.</HI> And a|gain; <HI>they have without any calling of God &s;ei&s;ed on that chaire, which they holde.</HI> And yet againe, (as if he mu&s;t needes more then once, though l<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ttle d<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="3 letters">ming thereof when he writ this, give Mai&s;ter Can here the lye.) <HI>Thus not o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ely the mi&s;&s;emba&s;sage of the Phari&s;ees exerci&s;ing other mens offices, but the perfidiou&s;nes and &s;loathfullne&s;&s;e of the Priests, in neglecting the du|ty enjoyned them by God, is taxed here by Christ. And yet &s;aith he, be|cau&s;e
<PB N="59" REF="34"> they have &s;at, and doe &s;it in Mo&s;es chaire, that is, this &s;ect doth &s;till holde the prime place in the government of the Church, and interpreta|tion of the Law, and there are no other ordinarie teachers; heare them.</HI> Yet, as he after &s;heweth not ab&s;olutely, but <HI>&s;o farre forth as they &s;it in Mo&s;es chaire, that is, teach Mo&s;es doctrine, doctrine agreable to his.</HI> Could any man have brought in a witne&s;&s;e to &s;peake more directly again&s;t him&s;elfe? I &s;ay no more, but let &s;imple ones take heed hereby how they tru&s;t Mai&s;ter Cans quo|tations hereafter: and let him learne to &s;ee and acknowledge, if he have any drop of grace in him, his own wicked folly to his &s;hame.</P>
<P N="4">4. It were an hard ta&s;ke to put Mai&s;ter Can to proove (that which Mai|&s;ter Iohn&s;on all&s;o averred before him, but in the very next words allmo&s;t againe contradicted him&s;elfe in) that <HI>all the Scribes and Phari&s;ees in tho&s;e times had ei|ther prie&s;tly or L<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">viticall offices.</HI> Saint Paul, I am &s;ure, was a Phari&s;ee before his conver&s;ion, though neither Levite nor Prie&s;t; being of the tribe of Benjamin. <HI>Phil</HI> p. 3. 5. and Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on granteth that <HI>they might be of any tribe:</HI> &amp; yet were &s;uch all&s;o permitted in their Synagogues to preach: as appeareth by that example of his. Act. 13.15. And if this had been &s;poken of them as Prie&s;ts Law|full or unlawfull, they &s;hould rather have beene &s;aid <HI>to &s;tand in Aarons roome,</HI> then <HI>to &s;itt in Mo&s;es chaire.</HI></P>
<P N="5">5. All this title tatle mixt, as you &s;ee, with gro&s;&s;e untruth, is nothing to the pre&s;ent point: which is this onely, <HI>whether the names of Scribes and phari&s;ees mad: them <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">o be fal&s;e ministers,</HI> as Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on would proove ours to be, be|cau&s;e they are &s;ometime tearmed <HI>priests</HI> and <HI>deacons.</HI> Or <HI>why</HI> (not matter of calling, which is not now the pre&s;ent que&s;tion, but) <HI>the title of prie&s;ts and dea|cons should p<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">oove us to be fal&s;e mini&s;ters, more then the title of <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">ribes and pha|ri&s;ees prooves them to be &s;uch.</HI> So that this is to tell us of a mattock, when we are talking of a &s;pade.</P>
<P N="2">2, <HI>He cannot thinke,</HI> he &s;aith, <HI>that Mai&s;ter Bradshaw should be &s;o ignorant as in this place he makes shew of; for his words impor<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">, that the ability which the Phari&s;ees had to expound the Law, argued them true ministers. But this is fal&s;e.</HI></P>
<P>This indeed is <HI>mo&s;t fal&s;e,</HI> that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws words import any &s;uch thing. He demandeth onely this; <HI>if to be expounders of the Law,</HI> (which, as Pa|reus, Mai&s;ter Cans Advocate, before him, he under&s;tandeth to be the meaning of <HI>&s;itting in Mo&s;es chaire,</HI> with better ground then Mai&s;ter Can maintaines his expo&s;ition, which by gro&s;&s;e fal&s;ehood and lyes, as you have heard, he &s;eeketh to
<PB N="60" REF="35"> &s;upport,) <HI>were &s;ufficient to argue theire ministerie to be a true ministery</HI> (as Mai|&s;ter Iohn&s;on acknowledgeth it to be) <HI>notwithstanding theire names and corrup|tions otherwi&s;e: then why may not the preaching of the word, and admini&s;tration of the Sacraments, doe the like with ours, notwithstanding the names excepted a|gain&s;t?</HI> For what Mai&s;ter Can addeth of the Scribes and Phari&s;ees, <HI>of which fam ly (to wit, of Levi) were the&s;e;</HI> which to proove he printeth us to <HI>Ioh.</HI> 1.19. <HI>w<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">h</HI> 24.) and then addeth, <HI>So many as were emploied in or about the &s;ervice of the Sanc<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">uarie.</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. It is fal&s;e, as was &s;hewed before, that all the Scribes and Phari&s;ees were &s;uch. And will you &s;ee how &s;oundly he prooves it by the place produced? <HI>The Pr e&s;ts and Levites that were &s;ent to Iohn Bapti&s;t, were of the Phari&s;ees. Ergo the Phari&s;ees were all Prie&s;ts or Levites.</HI> As if a man &s;hould rea&s;on thus, &s;uppo|&s;ing two or three coopers or coblers to have given theire voices, in calling Mai|&s;ter Can to be their Pa&s;tor. <HI>The coopers or coblers that at Am&s;terdam gave their vo<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ces for M^r. Can were of the Separation. Ergo, all the Separati&s;ts, either there or el&s;where, are coopers or coblers.</HI> The one argument is every ace of it, as good as the other. But thus the&s;e men cite Scripture: which this place excepted, he hath &s;carce done in this whole di&s;cour&s;e againe, for proofe of ought que&s;tioned, how&s;oever for &s;ome things, whereof there is no que&s;tion, &s;ometime he doth it,) &amp; you &s;ee how happily he doth it here.</P>
<P N="2">2. What he addeth, of <HI>&s;o many as were imploied in or about the Sanctua|rie;</HI> that cometh a great deale too &s;hort of that that is in que&s;tion, of <HI>&s;itting in Mo&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s cha<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">re, and expounding of the Law in the &s;ynagogues;</HI> which many did, that were not imploied in the temple at all.</P>
<P>All that he &s;ubjoines, either of <HI>Popish Prie&s;ts,</HI> or <HI>Jeroboams Prie&s;ts,</HI> what <HI>they might pleade for them&s;elves;</HI> &amp; of M^r. <HI>Bradshaws leaving the blinde Prie&s;ts in the ditch;</HI> &amp; of <HI>his shifting too &amp; froo, as one that &s;itteth unea&s; ly;</HI> is but du&s;t &amp; &s;moake, rai&s;ed to make a &s;moother withall, to hinder the Readers eyes, while he is taken up with impertinent pa&s;&s;ages, from ob&s;erving and di&s;cerning how M^r. Can &s;warveth from the pre&s;ent argument, &amp; pa&s;&s;eth by the principall &amp; maine matter of that, that he ought to have replied unto; to wit, <HI>that &s;uch appellations and corruptions as have be<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">n &s;poken of, though granted, doe not proove our mini|&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> r to be fal&s;e mini&s;ters; no more then t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e l ke did the Scribes and Phari&s;ees to be &s;uch:</HI> &amp; that their arguments for &s;eparation drawn from either of them, are un|&s;ound, that which he di&s;&s;emblingly pa&s;&s;eth by, &amp; an&s;wereth not a title unto.</P>
<P>And thus are we come to an end of M^r. Iohn&s;ons fir&s;t Rea&s;on, backed with 7. Arguments: no one whereof M^r. Can hath once indeavoured to make good
<PB N="61" REF="35"> by taking away the An&s;weres directly returned thereunto; &s;ave by repeating M^r. Iohn&s;ons words over againe, denying the An&s;were to be true, upon his own bare word, or the &s;ayings of &s;ome other body; &s;natching and &s;narling at by mat|ters; mi&s;relating M^r. Brad&s;haws words; gro&s;ely belying him; virulently taun|ting him; &amp; running out into tedious and un&s;avoury pa&s;&s;ages, impertinent, and &s;uch as nothing touch that that be ought to reply unto. Allbeit therefore there is little better to be looked for in the re&s;t of his di&s;cour&s;e; and to much inck &amp; paper, be&s;ides pretious time, hath been ca&s;t away allready in &s;urvey of the for|mer: yet, lea&s;t the wor&s;t &amp; weake&s;t part may &s;eeme to have been dealt with onely, the better &amp; more &s;ub&s;tantiall leaft untoucht, I &s;hall, intreating the Rea|ders patience, proceede on, though it be indeed a very tedious ta&s;ke, that I have here undertaken, to di&s;cover further the mans vanity, for all his peremtory lan|guage and carriage, in tho&s;e things that en&s;ue.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="2" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The &s;econd Rea&s;on.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>None may heare, or have any &s;pirituall communion with the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>Such is the mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblies of England.</P>
<P>Ergo none may heare, or have any Spirituall communion with the &s;ame.</P>
<P><HI>W. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>I grant the propo&s;ition, taking the words in the plain &amp; common &s;ence: to wit, under&s;tanding by <HI>the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y,</HI> the admini&s;tration &amp; di&s;pen&s;ation of the things of Antichri&s;t: otherwi&s;e to communicate &s;piritually with any mini&s;ters what&s;oever onely in the holy things of Chri&s;t, is not to com|municate with the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y, no though the mini&s;ters be mini&s;ters thereof. Neither doe his five rea&s;ons following, whereby he need|le&s;&s;ely prooves his propo&s;ition, proove it unlawfull to heare, or have any &s;piri|tuall communion with the mini&s;ters of Antichri&s;t then, when they mini&s;ter the things of Chri&s;t.</P>
<P>Here Mr. Can telleth us, that <HI>Mr. Bradshaw begins with a manife&s;t untruth. viz. that to communicate &s;piritually with the mini&s;ters of Antichrist in holy things, is not to communicate in his Apo&s;ta&s;y.</HI> And that this is an untruth, Mr. Can thus prooves: <HI>If this be true, then unlawfull ministers may lawfully be communicated with. But this,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>cannot be,</HI> &amp; that he prooveth, <HI>becau&s;e it was unlawfull to communicate with Corah, or with Vzziah, tho' they burnt true incen&s;e; or with Ieroboams Prie&s;ts, tho' they offered true &s;acrifices.</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. His propo&s;ition is denyed. For neither will it follow, that <HI>no unlawfull mini&s;ter may lawfully be communicated <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ith, all that communicate with any mini|&s;ter of Antichrists Aposta&s;y in any holy thing of God, doe communicate with him in his
<PB N="62" REF="36"> Antichristian Apo&s;ta&s;y,</HI> how&s;oever they were guilty therein of &s;inne other|wi&s;e. Nor yet againe; tho' it be granted, <HI>that &s;ome may communicate in &s;ome holy things with a mini&s;ter of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y, and yet not communicate with the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y,</HI> will it thence follow, that <HI>an un|lawfull mini&s;ter may Lawfully be communicated with.</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. His A&s;&s;umption is not prooved by the in&s;tances produced. It is no good con&s;equence. <HI>It was not Lawfull to communicate with Corah, Vzziah, &amp; Iero|boams priests in &s;ome things. Therefore with no unlawfull ministers in any thing.</HI></P>
<P>Be&s;ides, what he &s;aith of Ieroboams Prie&s;ts &amp; &s;acrifices, that <HI>they were true &s;acrifices;</HI> if by <HI>true</HI> he meane <HI>reall and e&s;&s;entiall &s;acrifices;</HI> &s;o were tho&s;e that the Iews offered to devills and all heathen theire idoles; and being &s;o under&s;tood the in&s;tant is idle. For that is not &s;ufficient to make them <HI>holy things.</HI> Or if by <HI>true</HI> he meane <HI>legall, and truely religious,</HI> it is fal&s;e that he affirmeth of them; they were in them&s;elves not <HI>holy things,</HI> but <HI>unholy</HI> and abominable <HI>&s;acrileges.</HI> And the ab&s;urdity of the inference will ea&s;ily appeare. <HI>It was unlawfull to com|municate with Ieroboams priests in their idolatrous &s;acrifices. Therefore it is un|lawfull to communicate with any fal&s;e mini&s;ter in the holy things of God.</HI></P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw&punc;</HI></P>
<P>For the proofe of the A&s;&s;umption he makes a terrible mu&s;ter of no le&s;&s;e then 7. Arguments. But let us pull up our Spirits, and &s;ee what is in them, one by one,</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of Prie&s;ts and Deacons ordained by Prelates thereunto, is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England is &s;uch a mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>Ergo. It is of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>He brought this very Argument to proove the fir&s;t rea&s;on, &amp; now he brings it againe for a proofe of his &s;econd rea&s;on: and is not this a learned kinde of rea&s;oning? when he will make a &s;hew of multitudes of rea&s;ons again&s;t us, and yet all of them come to one i&s;&s;ue, and lie upon one ground, and depend upon one proofe; &s;o that the overthrow of on<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> i<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter"> the overthrow of all: but his childi&s;h vanity herein, we &s;hall the better perceave, in that which followeth.</P>
<P>Both the propo&s;ition and a&s;&s;umption are fal&s;e. For</P>
<P N="1"><PB N="63" REF="36">1. It is not nece&s;&s;ary, that the mini&s;tery of Prie&s;ts &amp; Deacons, though or|dained by Antichri&s;t him&s;elfe, &s;hould be the mini&s;tery of his Apo&s;ta&s;y: but not+with&s;tanding his ordination, their mini&s;tery may be the mini&s;tery of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t, as was the mini&s;tery of Luther, Hu&s;&s;e, Wickliff and others.</P>
<P N="2">2. The mini&s;tery of &s;uch manner, of Prie&s;ts &amp; Deacons, as the Prelates or|dain, (or by the Laws ought to ordain) is the tru mini&s;tery of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t, &amp; for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof, directly contrary to the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P N="3">3. The mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, is not (as I have &s;hewed before) the mini&s;tery of Prie&s;ts &amp; deacons properly &s;o called, but of pa&s;tors &amp; teachers.</P>
<P>The propo&s;ition he prooveth as followeth, by two Arguments.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of Deacons and Prie&s;ts which accounts it &s;elfe to be Chri&s;ts, and yet was not &s;et by Chri&s;t him&s;elfe in his Church, for the worke of the mini|&s;tery, is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>Such is the mini&s;tery of Deacons and Prie&s;ts, ordained by the Prelates there|unto.</P>
<P>Ergo it is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>This argument is that which he bringeth for the fir&s;t rea&s;on of all: and here he brings it to proove that which before was brought to proove it. For he prooves, that <HI>our mini&s;tery is not &s;et by Christ in his Church, by this, becau&s;e it is the mini&s;tery of prie&s;ts and Deacons,</HI> and &s;o by con&s;equent of Antichri&s;ts Apo|&s;ta&s;y: Here he prooves, that <HI>the mini&s;tery of prie&s;ts and Deacons is the mini&s;te|ry of Antichrists Apo&s;ta&s;y, becau&s;e it is a ministery, that was not &s;ett by Chri&s;t in his Church.</HI> Thus doth he mo&s;t gro&s;ly runne round in a circle; as if I &s;hould proove, that his mini&s;tery is unlawfull; becau&s;e he is a Schi&s;matick; and that he is a Schi&s;matick, becau&s;e his mini&s;tery is unlawfull.</P>
<P>The 2. rea&s;on, whereby he prooves his propo&s;ition, followeth.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. If the Prelates of the Church of England have &s;uch offices and govern|ment, as be &s;peciall parts of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y, then the mini&s;tery ordained by them thereunto, mu&s;t needs be the mini&s;tery of that Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>But the Prelates of the Church of England have &s;uch offices &amp; government, as be &s;peciall parts of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y. Ergo</P>
<PB N="64" REF="37">
<P>The mini&s;tery ordained by them, is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y&punc; The con&s;equent is manife&s;t, becau&s;e the fruit mu&s;t needes be as the tree is, Math. 7.16. and who can bring a cleare thing out of filthynes. Iob 14.4.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption is prooved.</P>
<P N="1">1. Who&s;oever (be&s;ides Chri&s;t) have &s;uch offices and government, where|by they claime to be &s;pirituall Lords, they have the offices and government which are &s;peciall parts of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y, and are indeed very Ant<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">chri&s;ts them&s;elves.</P>
<P>But &s;uch are the Prelates of the Church of England.</P>
<P>Therefore they have &s;uch offices and government, as are &s;peciall parts of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>The propo&s; t on is prooved by tho&s;e places of Scripture, which teach there is but one &s;pirituall Lord, the Lord Ie&s;us Chri&s;t.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption is prooved by the Laws and Statutes of the land, wherein they are called Lords &s;pirituall, and in theire Canons they take upon them to pre&s;cribe their own ordinances to the Church, for the wor&s;hip of God; &amp; binde the &s;pirite and con&s;cience to the acknowledgement and approbation thereof, &amp; to give the holy gho&s;t.</P>
<P N="2">2. The offices and government of &s;uch Bi&s;hops, as are over Dioce&s;&s;an &amp; Provinciall Churches, and exerci&s;e Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall juri&s;diction over all the mini|&s;ters and people therein, are &s;peciall parts of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>But &s;uch are the Prelates of the Church of England.</P>
<P>Therefore, they have &s;uch offices and government, as be &s;pecially parts of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. I deny the con&s;equence of the propo&s;ition of the fir&s;t Syllogi&s;me. The off<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">cers and governers of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y, may and have ordained &s;ome things that are Chr<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;tian. Neither doth the &s;aying of Chri&s;t or Iob proove the con&s;equence. For though it &s;hould be granted unto them, that the governers of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y have ordained this mini&s;tery, yet doth it not follow, that it is therefore a proper and meere fruit of Antichri&s;t, but may be an accidentall effect, as are many other things, which he ordaineth, agreeable to Chri&s;ts own ordinances. So that he mu t proove, that our mini&s;tery ordained by the Pope or Bi&s;hops, doth as properly flow from the nature of theire office and govern|ment, as figgs from a figg tree, or grapes from a vine, or filthy water from a f<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ule fountain: the contrary whereof is in this ca&s;e mo&s;t evident. For leave the
<PB N="65" REF="37"> bare names and titles, and con&s;ider our mini&s;tery in all the e&s;&s;entiall parts and offices thereof, and it is as po&s;&s;ible either for <HI>a presbytery,</HI> or for any particular Church, &s;uch in con&s;titution as theire own, to ordaine the like mini&s;tery in all points and re&s;pects, with all the defects and faults thereof.</P>
<P N="2">2. Concerning the proofe of the A&s;&s;umption, the propo&s;ition may be de|nyed: it being one thing <HI>to bee,</HI> and on other thing <HI>to claime to be;</HI> for every one is not that which he claimeth to be. The in&s;tances alledged to proove the a&s;|&s;umption, either are fal&s;e, or proove it not. The Laws may give tho&s;e titles to men which they doe not claime; neither doe either theire Canons or practi&s;e &s;hew, that they pre&s;cribe their own ordinances for <HI>worship,</HI> or propound to <HI>bind mens con&s;ciences to the acknowledgement of any &s;uch matter.</HI> They profe&s;&s;e the contrary, and urge theire own ordinances onely under the name of things indif|ferent. Though therefore in error of judgement, they may, and happily doe command &s;uch ordinances of their own, as are divine wor&s;hip, &amp; in &s;uch a man|ner, as it bindeth con&s;cience, (which Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons own Church in many ca|&s;es may doe, except they thinke them&s;elves priviledged from error) yet they pro|te&s;ting again&s;t any &s;uch power and autority, they cannot be &s;aid therein to arro|gate the office of Spirituall Lords; in that &s;en&s;e at lea&s;t, in which Chri&s;t is &s;aid to be the onely &s;pirituall Lord. And tho' in theire ordination of mini&s;ters, they u&s;e, as a ceremoniall &s;peech, to &s;ay, <HI>Receave the holy Gho&s;t;</HI> and therein peradventure offer &s;ome force to the Scripture, unto which they allude, yet they di&s;claime all actuall power and autority of giving the per&s;on, or gifts of the holy Gho&s;t, unto men.</P>
<P>It &s;hall be needles in this controver&s;y, to &s;pend time in the defence of the cal|ling of Bi&s;hops, any further then the nece&s;&s;ity of the argument requires: onely for the further clearing of the truth, in the differences of them of the Separation, not onely from the Bi&s;hops, but from the other &s;ort of mini&s;ters all&s;o, which doe not approove of their callings, I offer the&s;e points unto them, to con&s;ider of ad|vi&s;edly.</P>
<P N="1">1 Whether the Supreame Magi&s;trate have not power to over&s;ee and go|verne all the &s;everall Churches within his dominions; yea whether he be not bound &s;o to doe.</P>
<P N="2">2. Whether for his further help and a&s;&s;i&s;tance herein, he may not make choi&s;e of grave, learned be reverend men, to a&s;&s;i&s;t him in the &s;ame government.</P>
<P N="3">3 Whether by vertue of his power the&s;e per&s;ons, thus calld to a&s;&s;i&s;t the &s;u|preame Magi&s;trate, may not Lawfully try the gifts of all the &s;everall mini&s;ters within his Dominions, &amp; give publick approbation of the worthy, and inhibite
<PB N="66" REF="38"> tho&s;e, which they finde unworthy, from the execution of their mini&s;tery: and whether they may not vi&s;ite the &s;everall mini&s;ters and Churches, convent them before them, examine them, how they have behaved them&s;elves in theire places, &amp; pun<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;h the blame worthy.</P>
<P N="4">4. Whether for the more ea&s;y and orderly government of the &s;aid Chur|ches, &s;o far forth as appertaineth to him, he may not divide his Kingdome (as ou<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s is) into provinces, a&s;&s;igneing over each of them under him&s;elfe, &s;ome &s;pecial ma<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">&s;trate, f<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">t for learning &amp; experience, to over &s;ee &amp; governe all the generall &amp; particular chu<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ches there: &amp; whether he may not &s;ubdivide tho&s;e provinces into dioce&s;&s;es, a&s;&s;igneing all&s;o unto them, other more inferior officers, under him, &amp; his provinciall officers, to over&s;ee the &s;everall churches within &s;uch &amp; &s;uch a p<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ecinct.</P>
<P N="5">5. Whether it doe de&s;troy the nature of a mini&s;teriall or a particular tru vi|&s;ible church that many of them &s;hould appertain to one provinciall or dioce&s;&s;an government; tho' in that re&s;pect they &s;hould be held and reputed, but for one P<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ovinciall or Dioce&s;&s;an Church.</P>
<P N="6">6. Whether Antichri&s;t, having u&s;urped the Kings &s;upremacy and taken into his hands this authority, and corrupted the &s;ame, hath made it now un|lawfull for the Magi&s;trate to execute the &s;ame in manner and forme afore&s;aid: or whether the juri&s;diction afore&s;aid doe not directly and properly belong to the civill Magi&s;trate; and not to Antichri&s;t, but by u&s;urpation: and whether his u&s;urpation of this office, can make it a part of his apo&s;ta&s;y, in tho&s;e places, where it is re&s;tored againe to the &s;upreame Magi&s;trate.</P>
<P N="7">7. Whether the &s;upreame Magi&s;trate, recovering this his right from An|tichri&s;t, and together with it happily taking all&s;o to him&s;elfe, &s;omething that be|longs to the Kingdome of Ant<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">chri&s;t, and executing the &s;ame, either in his own per&s;on, or by others, together with his own Lawfull right, whether, I &s;ay, this doe de&s;troy his own Lawfull right: and whether the &s;ubject is ever the le&s;&s;e bound to &s;ubject them&s;elves, unto the &s;ame right either in his own per&s;on, or his &s;ub|&s;titute.</P>
<P>Hitherto he hath endeavoured to proove the propo&s;ition of the fir&s;t argu|ment, whereby he would confirm te A&s;&s;umption of the &s;econd rea&s;on: &amp; now he &s;etts upon the proofe of the A&s;&s;umption; namely: <HI>That the pre&s;ent mini&s;te|ry of the Church a&s;&s;emblies of England, is the mini&s;tery of Deacons and Prie&s;ts ordained by Prelates thereunto. This,</HI> he &s;aith, <HI>is prooved by the Canons, con&s;ti|tut<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ons and ob&s;ervation of our Church.</HI> And this he confirmeth fir&s;t with a long tedious and idle rehear&s;all of <HI>the forme of ordination of our mini&s;ters,</HI> be&s;towing
<PB N="67" REF="38"> co&s;t to print in a manner our whole <HI>booke of ordination.</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. By certain of the late <HI>Canons pre&s;&s;ing &s;ub&s;cription, conformity, and an ac|knowledgement of the Lawfullnes of the calling of Bishops and of theire ordina|tion.</HI></P>
<P N="3">3. By certain <HI>sharp &s;peeches of &s;ome martyrs,</HI> and of &s;ome others of <HI>our own nat<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">on again&s;t the Arch-Bishops, Bishops,</HI> and other of the <HI>Clergy</HI> of theire times: in the relation of which points he &s;pend &s;ome 5. leaves: wherein &s;till he runns in a circle, begging one of his arguments to proove an other: So that one of his arguments are as g<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> as all, and all no better then one.</P>
<P>This may &s;uffice for an&s;were.</P>
<P N="1">1. That if all particulars mentioned in the booke of ordination &s;hould be &s;trictly &amp; preci&s;ly practi&s;ed (as allways they are not) yet there is not one clau&s;e in the whole forme of ordination by him cited, that doth nece&s;&s;arily argue them which are &s;o ordained, to be true and proper Prie&s;ts and Deacons: but if there were, and if all&s;o the mini&s;ters ordained were annointed with oile, if theire crowns were &s;haven, and they had power given to offer the abominable idole of the Ma&s;&s;e, yet this is not &s;ufficient to argue, that theire mini&s;tery, is the mi|ni&s;tery of Prie&s;ts, &amp;c. except in theire mini&s;tery they &s;hould execute the &s;ame. If their own Church &s;hould ordaine one to the mini&s;tery of a Pa&s;tor, &amp; &s;hould in their ordination require him, onely to preach the word &s;incerely, and to ad|mini&s;ter the Sacraments according to Chri&s;ts in&s;titution; and yet in his practi&s;e and execution, he &s;hould doe nothing but &s;ing Ma&s;&s;e and Mattens, and they &s;hould accept of this mini&s;tery &amp; no other at his hands; would any that is in his witts &s;ay, that this mans mini&s;tery is the mini&s;tery of a Pa&s;tor, becau&s;e he was in formality of words and ceremonys ordained to that office? how much le&s;&s;e can any man &s;ay, that our mini&s;tery is the mini&s;tery of Prie&s;ts, when they doe not onely execute any &s;uch office, but the cleane contrary; and when in theire ordination not &s;o much as any part of a Prie&s;ts office (properly &s;o taken) is a&s;&s;ig|ned unto them, but onely the name; &amp; not &s;o much as their name in their orders written in Latine, which are to interpreate the meaning of the Engli&s;h word.</P>
<P N="2">2. Though the mini&s;ters &s;hould doe all things required by the Canons, &amp; &s;hould be every way an&s;werable unto them: and though the te&s;timonys of our martyrs and others were yeelded to be true, yet mu&s;t he &s;trive hard, that can from either or both argue, that our mini&s;ters are indeed Prie&s;ts, except in a me|taphoricall and borrowed &s;peech.</P>
<P>Out o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> all this whole piece, Mai&s;ter Can calleth and cutteth out onely two or three &s;hreds, to be &s;nipping and &s;natching at, after his manner.</P>
<P N="1"><PB N="68" REF="39">1. <HI>It is certaine</HI> (&s;aith he) <HI>that the mini&s;tery of Prie&s;ts &amp; Dea|cons ordained by Antichrist, is the mini&s;tery of his aposta&s;y, and not Chri&s;ts, as he prophanely affirmes, for he makes them not according to the in&s;titution pre&s;cribed of God; but wholly after a wicked and dive|lish device of hi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> own braine: &s;o that the &s;ame is a meere fruit of the bea&s;t and fal&s;e Prophet; and no accidentall effect, but a most cur&s;ed thing, which doth as properly flow from his defection, as figgs from the figg tree, or a childe from the &s;eed of the parents.</HI></P>
<P>B<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">t Mai&s;ter Ca<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s p<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">po&s;iti<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">n here, if <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">is argument be &s;yllogi&s;tically framed, is d<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">yed. For though Antichri&s;t &s;hould have ordained them after &s;o <HI>wicked and divelish a manner;</HI> yet it will not thence fo<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">low, but that &s;uch mini&s;tery as they, notwith&s;tanding &s;uch ordination, may execute and exerci&s;e, may be <HI>the mi|nistery of Christ,</HI> even of <HI>pa&s;tors and teachers,</HI> as hath ben before &s;aid. And M^r. Cans certaine avowchment will not be taken therefore upon his word, till he bring us &s;ome better proofe.</P>
<P N="2">2. <HI>As for Luther,</HI> (&s;aith he) <HI>Hu&s;&s;e, Wickliffe, &amp; others, whereof he &s;peakes; it is but an ab&s;urd and childish begging of the question: Seeing it cannot be proo|ved, that they receaved a lawfull &amp; ordinary mini&s;tery from the Church of Rome.</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. If this crackbraind fellow did but under&s;tand, either what his adver&s;ary an&s;wereth, or what him&s;elfe &s;aith, he would never in this &s;hamele&s;&s;e manner foame out his own folly, and abu&s;e both him&s;elfe and tho&s;e that reade him. He &s;aith that <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaw childishly beggs the question,</HI> who neither kee|peth him&s;elfe to the que&s;tion, nor under&s;tandeth what <HI>the begging of the que|&s;tion</HI> mean <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">. He <HI>beggeth the que&s;tion,</HI> that requireth that to be granted him that is in que&s;tion, for the proofe of that he &s;aith. Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw onely in way of an&s;were to Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons propo&s;ition affirmeth, that <HI>the mini&s;tery exerci&s;ed by &s;ome that have been ordained by Antichri&s;t;</HI> (for example, <HI>Luther, Wickl ffe, Hu&s;&s;e, &amp;c.) may be the mini&s;tery of Chri&s;t.</HI> Which without <HI>begging the que&s;tion</HI> mu&s;t &s;till &s;tand good, till Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on or Mai&s;ter Can have proo|ved the contrary.</P>
<P N="2">2. He &s;aith that therefore <HI>Ma<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ter Bradshaw begs the question, becau&s;e it cannot be prooved, that the&s;e men before mentioned receaved a Lawfull ordinary ministery from the Church of Rome:</HI> when as, neither is this the que&s;tion, whi|ther they did receave a Lawfull ordinary mini&s;tery from the Curch of Rome, or no; nor doth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;ay any &s;uch thing.</P>
<P N="3">3. To that of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw that <HI>the mini&s;tery of &s;uch Prie&s;ts &amp; Dea|cons
<PB N="69" REF="39"> as the Prelates ordaine, or by the Laws ought to ordaine is the true mini&s;tery of Ie&s;us Christ: and for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof directly con|trary to Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y.</HI></P>
<P>To this&punc; I &s;ay, Mai&s;ter Can thus replys.</P>
<P><HI>He &s;aith, hat the ministery of &s;uch Prie&s;ts and Deacons, which the Prelates ordaine, are the true mini&s;ters of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t. VV<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">at every dumb dog, &amp; all tho&s;e</HI> 60. 80. <HI>and</HI> 100. <HI>which are made at a clap, and &s;ent forth as rogues ad ma&s;terle&s;&s;e &s;ervants, to get benefices where they can, havi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">g no particular congregation, &amp;c. Yea, now all againe are justifyed, for he &s;peaks without exception or limitation.</HI></P>
<P>Where fi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;t, he clippeth away &s;ome o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws words: then to make him &s;ay, what he would have him &s;ay, he &s;peaketh <HI>non &s;en&s;e</HI> him&s;elfe: and maketh him likewi&s;e to doe the like, in &s;aying, as he &s;aith, that <HI>the mini&s;tery of &s;uch Prie&s;ts and Deacons, which the Prelates ordaine, are the mini&s;ters of Ie&s;us Christ:</HI> And &s;o after a parcell of his ba&s;e and &s;currilous language, taken up it &s;eemes, at &s;econd hand from &s;ome &s;ory broker like him&s;elfe; not free from ju&s;t &s;u&s;pition of gro&s;&s;e untruth, he concludeth with a loud lye, that <HI>Maister Brad|shaw &s;peaketh without exception or limitation:</HI> which is manife&s;tly fal&s;e. For he &s;aith expre&s;ly; <HI>that the Prelates ordaine, or by Law ought to ordaine.</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw doth not avouch <HI>all mini&s;ters made by the Prelates to be Lawfull mini&s;ters,</HI> but that <HI>the mini&s;tery of Prie&s;ts and Deacons &s;uch as our Law intendeth</HI> (which are in effect no other then pa&s;tors and teachers, nor have appeared to be any other&punc; by ought that hath hitherto been objected) <HI>can not therefore be d<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">nyed to be the mini&s;tery have ben ordained by the Pre<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ates.</HI> For, as for tho&s;e that have no particular congregation, we have in this controver&s;y no|thing to doe with them; &s;ince the &s;ame, (which we are inforced to minde Mai|&s;ter Can &s;o oft off, that we may keepe him from ranging; becau&s;e he &s;till for|gets him&s;elfe where he is, and what he is about) is concerning Separation from our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, and con&s;equently of the mini&s;ters of particular congre|gations; which they are not, which have none.</P>
<P>Nor doth this therefore any way cro&s;&s;e or contradict, either that which <HI>&s;ome other,</HI> he &s;aith, <HI>have &s;aid,</HI> that <HI>all Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall officers ought to be cho&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">n by the free choi&s;e of the people.</HI> (which yet would be hard for Mai&s;ter Can it may be, to proove) or that which Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw him&s;elfe &s;aith el<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">where; that <HI>&s;ome mi|nisters have ben permitted among us, that have not had ordination from the Pre|lates:</HI> for all Mai&s;ter Cans loud cry of <HI>daubing, rotten &s;tuff,</HI> &amp;c. And much le&s;&s;e
<PB N="70" REF="40"> doth it inferre, what he would hence &s;quize out; that <HI>if men will be Priests of our Churches, they may come in any way; and it is no matter how they be ordai|ned, nor who ordaine them, nor whether they be ordained or no: His words in|deed,</HI> &s;aith Mai&s;ter Can; <HI>implie no le&s;&s;e.</HI> Which being but a ba&s;e calumny of one, who by his cour&s;e con&s;tantly held here, evidently &s;heweth, that he litl<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e re|gards what he &s;aith, tho' never &s;o manife&s;tly fal&s;e; &s;o he may any way utter that, that may ca&s;t &s;ome a&s;per&s;ion upon his adver&s;ary: and having in the former pa&s;|&s;age, by explanation of his meaning, &s;ufficiently cleared it, I let it pa&s;&s;e, &amp; leave it with the re&s;t of the like kind, for Mai&s;ter Can to an&s;were, when all tho&s;e &s;hall be reckoned with, that <HI>either love or make lyes.</HI></P>
<P>To the &s;ame reckoning I referre that all&s;o which next followeth, well de&s;er|ving the whet&s;tone, where he &s;aith, that <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaw never brings either Scrip<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ures, examples, rea&s;ons or humane testimonys, to confirme any one thing, whereof he writes.</HI> Which allbeit he had not done, yet he might have done as much as could ju&s;tly be exacted of him, being in place of an an&s;werer to an o|the<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s arguments, who&s;e proper office is to an&s;were, either by di&s;tinction, or de|niall: yet whither he have <HI>never brought any of the&s;e, to confirme any one thing, that he writes of,</HI> let any Reader con&s;ider advi&s;edly; and if he finde it not to be a mo&s;t notorious untruth, let him return me the lye, and I will willingly under|goe it.</P>
<P N="4">4. Pa&s;&s;ing by <HI>certain froathy demands</HI> (as he tearmeth them) which yet to men of und<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">r&s;tanding will appeare to be &s;ub&s;tantiall, and very pertinent to the matter of Mai ter Iohn&s;o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s Arg<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ment and the proofe of his A&s;&s;umption; <HI>Th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">t the ministery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblies of England, is the mini&s;tery of Deacons and Priests, by the Bishops ordained thereto, &amp;c.</HI> He reply|eth onely this; that <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaw bewrayeth greate igno|rance, in not putting a difference between a mini&s;tery, and the execu|tion of it; which are distinct things.</HI> And <HI>if he had not wanted witt, he would not &s;o ab&s;urdly have confounded the one with the other: that it is po&s;sible, that one should be a tru Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall officer, and yet never doe the &s;ervices thereof: as a woman is really a wife immediately upon her mariage, before she performe any duty yea though she should never pe<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">forme any. And Mai&s;ter Bradshaw therefore was deceived to thinke if one be a fal&s;e mini&s;ter by ordination that the administration of Lawfull things, makes him true.</HI> Which he sheweth by an in|&s;tance
<PB N="71" REF="40"> of <HI>&s;ome other then of Aarons hou&s;e admitted to be Priests, ad|mini&s;tering without exception, and yet no Lawfull officers notwith|&s;tanding.</HI> And againe, that <HI>one ordained a Pa&s;tor according to Chri&s;ts in&s;tituiion, hath certainly a Lawfull mini&s;tery, how&s;oever things should fall out afterward, yea tho' he should &s;ing Ma&s;&s;e and Mattens&punc; as a per&s;on may be a &s;ervant, or &s;ubject truly and fully, and yet doe after|wards the actions of theeves, rebels, traiters,</HI> &amp;c.</P>
<P>But neither was Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;uch a &s;illy <HI>ignoramus,</HI> as Mai&s;ter Can would make of him, as not to be able to di&s;tingui&s;h betweene <HI>ordination</HI> and <HI>execution;</HI> nor &s;uch a loo&s;e and unlimitted di&s;putant, as to wander, as Mai&s;ter Cans wonted manner is, from the matter he hath in hand. The po<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">nt in pre&s;ent agitation is concerning <HI>the ministery of Priests and Deacons, &s;uch a<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">y our Prela es are ordained,</HI> what it is for the <HI>&s;ub&s;tance</HI> of it: which Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on t proove it to be <HI>the ministery of Pri<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ts and Deacons, properly &s;o tearmed,</HI> &amp; <HI>no<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> of pa&s;tors and teachers,</HI> alledgeth the <HI>booke</HI> of <HI>ordination</HI> and certain <HI>canons</HI> &amp; <HI>con&s;titutions,</HI> wherein conformity, and &s;ome other &s;uch things are enjoined. To wh<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ch Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw as you have heard, an&s;wereth, that <HI>neither any o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e clau&s;e in the whole forme of ordination argueth them, &s;o to be as he &s;aith; nor tho' there had been in theire ordination power given them to &s;ing and &s;ay Ma&s;&s;e and Mattens would it proove, therefore theire mini|&s;tery to be the mini&s;tery of Priests, properly &s;o tearmed, unles they did execute t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e &s;ame no more then the ministery of Maister Can would be deemed the ministery of a Pa&s;tor, though being ordained to that office he should doe nothing but &s;ing Ma&s;&s;e and Mattens.</HI></P>
<P>The difference therefore is here to be put, not betweene the <HI>mini&s;tery,</HI> and the <HI>execution</HI> of it, as Mai&s;ter Can &s;peakes; but betweene the <HI>en<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">rance</HI> into it, and the <HI>&s;ub&s;tance</HI> of it. The latter whereof is the main matter at <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">re<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ent in que|&s;tion between Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on and Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, as Mai&s;ter Can was admoni&s;hed, had he either wit or will to take notice of it, both at the very fir&s;t entrance, in an&s;were to the fir&s;t rea&s;on; and againe in an&s;were to the fir&s;t argu|ment, for the A&s;&s;umption of the &s;econd rea&s;on. 92.</P>
<PB N="70" REF="41">
<GAP DESC="duplicate" EXTENT="1 page">
<PB N="71" REF="41">
<GAP DESC="duplicate" EXTENT="1 page">
<PB N="72" REF="42" MS="y">
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw.</HI></P>
<P>The other A<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">guments, whereby he prooveth the maine A&s;&s;umption of the 2. rea&s;on. viz. that the mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England, is the mi|ni&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y follow.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of the prelacy profe&s;&s;ing it &s;elfe to be Chri&s;ts, &amp; yet &s;tanding in &s;uch an e&s;tate, as it doth not obey Ie&s;us Chri&s;t in his ordinance of mini&s;tery, wor&s;hip and government of the Church, as theire Prophet, Prie&s;t and King, is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>Such is the pre&s;ent mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England.</P>
<P>Ergo, it is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>To the propo&s;ition I an&s;were, that not onely <HI>the mini&s;tery of the Prelates,</HI> but of a presbytery, or any Church what&s;oever, that &s;tands in &s;uch an e&s;tate, is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y: and not onely <HI>the mini&s;tery of the Prelates,</HI> but any other mini&s;tery el<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e upon earth, may &s;tand in &s;uch an e&s;tate, as that it may in divers and &s;undry particulars, of ignorance or infirmity, di&s;obey Chri&s;t in his own ordinances of mini&s;tery, wor&s;hip and government of the Church, &amp; in that re&s;pect, and &s;o farre forth be the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y; &amp; yet be al&s;o the mini&s;tery of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t.</P>
<P>Hee prooves the propo&s;ition by 19. places of Scripture; to as much purpo&s;e as if by as many te&s;timonys he &s;hould proove that it is day light at high noone: Except he meane, that that is the mini&s;try of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y, which doth not in every particular obey Chri&s;t in his own ordinances of mini&s;tery. But his 19. proofes have no more force to proove it, then to proove that there is a man in the moone, as any man may &s;ee, that hath nothing el&s;e to doe, but examine them.</P>
<P N="2">2. I deny the A&s;&s;umption. The mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, though it he ordained by the Prelates, and be &s;ubiect unto them, yet it is not theire mi|ni&s;tery, but the mini&s;tery of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t; they preaching his word and admini|&s;tring his Sacraments: and it doth, if it be an&s;werable to the Law, obey Chri&s;t in all the maine e&s;&s;entiall parts of his own ordinances of mini&s;tery, &amp;c. And in all other points (for ought he can proove to the contrary) as far as the Lord hath revealed the truth unto them which exerci&s;e the &s;ame.</P>
<PB N="73" REF="42">
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption is evident by that which hath been &s;ayd in the 1. Rea&s;on, &amp; theire con&s;titution it &s;elfe &s;hews it: in that they are &s;o far from obeying Chri&s;t in his ordinances of mini&s;tery, and as that they execute the mini&s;tery and go|vernment of an other Arch-Bi&s;hop, and Lord-Bi&s;hop then Chri&s;t; of an Arch-Deacon, par&s;on, vicar, &amp;c. as al&s;o in their reading prayers out of a booke, &amp; ob|&s;erving other humane inventions, and in theire Church government according to Canons, Courts, &amp;c. which were never appointed by Chri&s;t.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>To omitt, that here againe he begs his fir&s;t rea&s;on to proove his &s;econd: if the a&s;&s;umption have no better evidence, the evidence is fal&s;e, as I have made it evident in the an&s;were to the fir&s;t rea&s;on.</P>
<P>Neither hath he there or el&s;where (in any of tho&s;e other of theire writings which he &s;ends us unto pag. 40.) prooved, that our mini&s;ters doe not obey Chri&s;t, in his ordinances of mini&s;tery, wor&s;hip and government: yea tho' it &s;hould be granted that they execute the mini&s;tery and government of other Arch-Bi&s;hops and Lord-Bi&s;hops be&s;ides Chri&s;t; and tho' they &s;hould be Arch-Deacons, par&s;ons, vicars, reading &s;tinted prayers, &amp;c. For all this may be done, yea and they may &s;inne &s;ome way in doing all this, &amp; yet they may obey Chri&s;t, in all the maine, e&s;&s;entiall and &s;ub&s;tantiall points, of his mini&s;tery, wor&s;hip and government.</P>
<P>To this Mai&s;ter Can thus replieth: <HI>Maister Bradshaw as one that pur|po&s;eth to deceive others, concealeth that that should give &s;peciall light to the mat|ter; and meerely to gull his reader hides from him what&s;oever should &s;erve for his mo&s;t true information about the point in di&s;pute; affirming, that</HI> mini&s;ters may in divers and &s;undry particulars, di&s;obey Chri&s;t in his ordinances of wor&s;hip and government: <HI>not expre&s;sing what tho&s;e diver&s;e and &s;undry particu|lars are:</HI> that which <HI>he is per&s;waded he dur&s;t not doe, becau&s;e they would then &s;oone have joyned i&s;&s;ue with him: and when he shall doe, till which time he leaveth him in the midst of his idle di&s;cour&s;e</HI> (as he tearmeth it) he telleth him <HI>he will return him an an&s;were.</HI></P>
<P>But thus Mai&s;ter Can, as el&s;where, &s;till forgetts him&s;elfe, and what part Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw holdeth in this di&s;pute with Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on, it is an an&s;werers part and per&s;on that he &s;u&s;taineth. And it is enough, that he denyeth
<PB N="74" REF="43"> Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons propo&s;ition. Which unles it be made good; That <HI>in no par|ticulars at all, a ministery may</HI> (not Lawfully, for that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;aith not, but that it may &s;o fall out that it &s;o doth) <HI>di&s;obey Chri&s;t in his own ordinance,</HI> &amp;c. <HI>And yet continue &s;till the mini&s;tery of Christ;</HI> Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons propo|&s;ition falleth to the ground.</P>
<P>And as he forgets Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws part, &s;o his own place too: he tells us, <HI>he w l an<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">ere, if we will tell him this and that;</HI> whereas he ought to replie, &amp; proove that that <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s denyed. But this is the manner of &s;ory di&s;putants, when they are at a <HI><GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">on plus,</HI> to give over their oppo&s;ition, and bid the an&s;werer, either tell what he meaneth, or take theire office upon him, proove that that he &s;aith, when they cannot proove what them&s;elves &s;ay.</P>
<P>For as for <HI>joyning of i&s;&s;ue</HI> (which Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw for&s;ooth had &s;o much cau&s;e to <HI>feare</HI>) it was joyned long &s;ince, between Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on as plaintiff &amp; Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw as defendant. Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw as you &s;ee here denying the truth of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons plea, as he hath layd it; and Mai&s;ter Can his pro|ctor refu&s;ing to make it good, and &s;o leaving his clients cau&s;e altogether unde|fended, while with other <HI>idle di&s;cour&s;e</HI> (to return him his own tearm) he trifleth out the time, and tireth his readers to no purpo&s;e.</P>
<P>The like an&s;were may be returned to that which followeth; where he requi|reth, that <HI>in the next reply, they will shew &s;ome good rea&s;on, for that which Mai|&s;ter Bradshaw writes, that mini&s;ters may execute the ministery and government of other Arch-Bishops,</HI> &amp;c. As if this were Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws reply, and not an an&s;were to Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons arguments; which if he will make good, he mu&s;t proove the thing here denyed; and not putt the other party by &s;ome proofe to make go<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">d his deniall.</P>
<P>Nor doth it thence follow, as he would have it, that all <HI>pleas again&s;t the prela|cy,</HI> mu&s;t needs be unju&s;t: &s;ince that ju&s;t complaint may be, both of irreptitious corruptions adhearing to a mini&s;tery, and oft injurious u&s;urpation exerci&s;ed on it, and &s;uite made for the reformation and remoovall of either; and yet the mi|ni&s;tery it &s;elfe not nece&s;&s;arily therefore, for the e&s;&s;ence and &s;ub&s;tance of it, de|nyed to be the mini&s;tery of Chri&s;t, nor obedience, by tho&s;e that execute fuch a mini&s;tery, denyed unto Chri&s;t in the maine and e&s;&s;entiall parts of his mini&s;tery, wor&s;hip and government.</P>
<P>For as for that he relates out of &s;ome intemperate &s;pirites, that <HI>our booke of Common praier was taken out of the vile Ma&s;&s;e booke, full of all bla&s;phemys, lyes and abominations; and our government taken wholly and every part from the Pope:</HI> we are no more tyed to acknowledge what &s;uch &s;ay, then they, what
<PB N="75" REF="43"> Mai&s;ter Smith and his followers, viz. that <HI>theire Church in re|gard of her Constitution is as very an Harlot, as either her Mother England, or her grandmother Rome is, out of who&s;e loines she came: and as her con&s;titution, &s;o her worship, ministery &amp; government fal&s;e.</HI> In his <HI>Epi&s;tle</HI> before <HI>the Character of the Bea&s;t;</HI> that <HI>Antichri&s;t is not utterly revealed or abolished, but in a very high degree is exalted in theire Churches;</HI> in his <HI>preface to the differences of the Churches of the Separation.</HI> And that <HI>theire Eldership is an invention of man, having an Antichri&s;tian mini&s;tery and government in it.</HI> And that therefore <HI>when the popish presbytery was &s;uppre&s;t, and their tr formed presbytery &s;ubstituted, one Antichri&s;t was putt down and an other &s;ett up in his place, or the bea&s;t was &s;uppre&s;t, and his image was advanced,</HI> &amp;c. vide p. 24.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of Chri&s;tian which is oppo&s;ed again&s;t, and exalted above the holy things, mini&s;tery and ordinances of Chri&s;t, is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;taly. 1. The&s;. 2.3.4. with 1. Ioh. &amp;c.</P>
<P>Such is the mini&s;tery of their Church-a&s;&s;emblys.</P>
<P>Ergo, It is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption is evident; 1. A man may peaceably receive or admini&s;ter theire holy things in theire manner, by vertue of their Deaconry or Prie&s;thood, received from theire Prelates.</P>
<P>But if any doe admini&s;ter or receive the holy things of God by the offices of pa&s;tors and teachers entred into and executed according to the te&s;tament of Chri&s;t, they are reviled and per&s;ecuted.</P>
<P N="1">1. Their prelacy, pr<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e&s;thood and deaconry is the very meanes of thru&s;ting away, and keeping out of the Church, the mini&s;tery and order which Chri&s;t hath appointed, which &s;ome of them&s;elves heretofore have acknowledged and written.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. The mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys being an&s;werable to the Laws, is not a mini&s;tery exalted in any thing above the mini&s;tery of Chri&s;t, but the ve|ry &s;ame in nature and quality, tho' in &s;ome accidents it may differre: in which
<PB N="76" REF="44"> difference, if here be any &s;inne, it is of ignorance or infirmity in the mini&s;ters; which may in as high or a higher degree befall unto the be&s;t mini&s;ters, that ever were &s;ince the Apo&s;tles times.</P>
<P N="2">2. The holy things, which they admini&s;ter, are the holy things of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t, and not of their own, and by vertue of that Prie&s;thood and Deaconry which they have received, they may not admini&s;ter any other holy things, but what Chri&s;t Ie&s;us requireth. The other things which they admini&s;ter, are jud|ged by them which admini&s;ter them, onely things indifferent, and matters of order, wherein if they which u&s;e them be deceived, it is but &s;uch an error, as worthy martyrs of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t, have been &s;ubject unto, &amp; not &s;ufficient to make theire mini&s;tery an Antichri&s;tian mini&s;tery.</P>
<P N="3">3. The Prelates doe not per&s;ecute any true Pa&s;tors and Teachers, &s;o much for mini&s;tering any of the holy things of Chri&s;t, as for refu&s;ing to conforme to &s;ome &s;peciall ordinances of their own; which they doe not holde to be holy things, but matters of order, and which by rea&s;ons they have indeavoured to proove to be &s;o? wherein the practi&s;e of Prelates is no more extreame then their own, who cen&s;ure as farre as they can, in all extreamity, all them who doe not in all points conforme and agree to theire own orders, ceremonys and Church politie.</P>
<P N="4">4. It can never be prooved, that the admittance of this mini&s;tery, is a hinderance of a better, but rather it is a meanes to keep out a wor&s;e, and a way in time to bring in a better, if a better be to be brought in. For by yeelding to &s;ome things that may be bettered, and is &s;o wi&s;hed and indeavoured, a doare is opened to mini&s;ter many holy things, which otherwi&s;e &s;hould be &s;hut. And if it be as Lawfull, for us to conjecture, as for him, theire generall Schi&s;me and rent from this mini&s;tery, hath been one maine and principall meanes to uphold it as it is.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The mini&s;tery which is &s;uch as in the nature and condition thereof it pertai|neth not to any body or State either civill or eccle&s;ia&s;ticall, but onely to the bo|dy or Kingdome of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y, is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo|&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>Such is the mini&s;tery of their Church-a&s;&s;emblys.</P>
<P>Ergo, It is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption is cleare, in as much as their Prelacy, Prie&s;thood and Dea|conry, is &s;uch, that the civill State may be perfect without them, and the Church
<PB N="77" REF="44"> of Chri&s;t may be compleate without them; onely the body and Kingdome of the Romi&s;h Antichri&s;t, can not be full and furni&s;hed in all the offices thereof without them.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>For an&s;were to the A&s;&s;umption.</P>
<P N="1">1. Concerning the Prelacy (though it be not any mini&s;tery of any of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, and therefore idely urged, in this &amp; all the other arguments) this may be &s;aid.</P>
<P N="1">1. That the principall, and mo&s;t honourable parts thereof are onely u&s;ur|ped by Antichri&s;t, and doe not appertain to him, but to the juri&s;diction of the &s;upreame Magi&s;trates and States.</P>
<P N="2">2. That the State of a Chri&s;tian common-wealth cannot be perfect, with|out &s;ome generall vi&s;itors and over&s;eers of Churches.</P>
<P N="3">3. That though a particular Church or congregation may be compleate without them, yet for the nece&s;&s;ary union and agreement of the &s;everall Chur|ches in Chri&s;tian Provinces and Kingdomes, it is fitt and agreeable to rea&s;on, &amp; no ways repugnant to Gods word, that under the &s;upreame Magi&s;trate there &s;hould be other governers to protect and incourage tho&s;e mini&s;ters and Chur|ches which doe their duty; and to puni&s;h tho&s;e which &s;hall offend. Wherein if either through warrant of humane Laws, or &s;ome per&s;onall corruption, they &s;hall in &s;ome things pa&s;&s;e their bounds, they doe no more than any other offi|cers, either civill or Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall, through frailty and infirmity, may doe.</P>
<P N="4">4. That the Kingdome of Antichri&s;t can not be furni&s;hed, in all the offi|ces thereof without the autority of civill Magi&s;trates: and therefore this &s;eems to make as much again&s;t the calling of civill Magi&s;trates as Bi&s;hops.</P>
<P N="2">2. Concerning the mini&s;tery of our Prie&s;ts and Deacons, &s;uch as it is, or by Law ought to be, in our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, the Church of Chri&s;t can not be compleate without it. Yea it is no Church without it. Neither can the Kingdome of Antichri&s;t &s;tand before it. Neither will he ever proove the con|trary.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The mini&s;tery which is &s;uch, as the body of Antichri&s;t, the man of &s;inne can not without it be compleate in all the members and canonicall functions there|of, is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<PB N="78" REF="45">
<P>Such is the mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England.</P>
<P>Ergo, It is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>This argument is but the taile of the former; and therefore needs no further an&s;were, it being cut off in the an&s;were to the former, the canons pont<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ficall &amp; State of the Romi&s;h Antichri&s;t doe manife&s;t the contrary, which have and doe per&s;ecute with &s;word and fire &s;uch a mini&s;tery as is the mini&s;tery of our Church a&s;&s;emblys: if it be in all points, to the intent of the Law.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of Deacons, Prie&s;ts and Prelates, which accounts it &s;elfe to be Chri&s;ts, and yet indeed is &s;uch, as the Kings &amp; rulers of the earth may &amp; ought to &s;uppre&s;&s;e and roote out of their Dominions, is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts a|po&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>Such is theire mini&s;tery. Ergo,</P>
<P>It is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption is prooved in the former rea&s;on, and in other treati&s;es, and by &s;ome of them&s;elves in their &s;uites to the Parliament: and if the Prelates, &amp; their conforming Clergy denie it, they are by theire own Canons excommuni|cated <HI>ip&s;o facto.</HI></P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>This &s;ixt argument is borowed from the fir&s;t rea&s;on, where it is brought to proove, that <HI>our ministery is not the mini&s;tery of pa&s;tors and teachers:</HI> as here it is brought againe to proove, that <HI>it is the ministery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</HI></P>
<P>But how doth he proove that the King ought to &s;uppre&s;&s;e this mini&s;tery? he refers us for the proofe thereof, e&s;pecially to the former rea&s;on, how doth he proove it there? thus: <HI>it is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y, therefore the King ought to &s;uppre&s;&s;e it.</HI> Is not this learned &s;tuffe?</P>
<P>Concerning his other treati&s;es which he &s;o often &s;end us unto, as if they were in every &s;treete and marketplace of the land; we have not &s;o much idle time to &s;eeke after them: and we pre&s;ume we &s;hall finde no better &s;tuffe in them, then in this.</P>
<P>If any among us have putt up any &s;uch &s;uite to the Parliament, for the aboli|&s;hing of our mini&s;tery in generall, let them an&s;were for them&s;elves. But the Prelates may well laugh at his &s;implicity and &s;illine&s;&s;e of witt, that thinkes to
<PB N="79" REF="45"> fright them with &s;uch a buggbeare as this, in making them beleeve, that they are by theire own Canons excommunicated <HI>ip&s;o facto;</HI> if they deny that the King may and ought to aboli&s;h our mini&s;tery.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>If it be &s;uch as &s;hall be aboli&s;hed by the Lord through the power and light of his go&s;pell, then it is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts Apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>The Fir&s;t is true. Ergo</P>
<P>The Latter is true all&s;o.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Brads<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">aw.</HI></P>
<P>The &s;ame an&s;were will &s;erve for this argument, that was given to the for|mer. For the A&s;&s;umption is fal&s;e, the light of the go&s;pell &s;hall more and more confirme, e&s;tabli&s;h and perfect it; and remoove all the defects and blemi&s;hes in it. his proofe is as ridiculous and &s;ophi&s;ticall, as is the former, for he prooves it by the &s;ame que&s;tion, that here it is brought to proove. For &s;o in effect pro|ceeds his di&s;putation.</P>
<P><HI>That which shall be abolished is Antichri&s;tian.</HI></P>
<P><HI>Our mini&s;tery shall be abolished.</HI> Ergo</P>
<P><HI>It is Antichri&s;tian.</HI></P>
<P>But how doth he, for our learning proove, that our mini&s;tery &s;hall be aboli|&s;hed? very learnedly and profoundly thus.</P>
<P><HI>That which is Antichri&s;tian shall be abolished.</HI></P>
<P><HI>Our mini&s;tery is Antichri&s;tian.</HI></P>
<P><HI>Therefore. It shall be abolished.</HI></P>
<P>For this is the effect of that idle di&s;cour&s;e of 2. or 3. leaves. to wit, pag. 46. 51. tending to proove, that <HI>Antichri&s;t &amp; all his offices shall be abolished.</HI></P>
<P>In defence of the&s;e 3. arguments Mai&s;ter Can gives not a word, good or bad; but leaveth them and their Author, to &s;hift as they may for them&s;elves. Onely he is plea&s;ed, after his woonted manner, when he wanteth other matter, to minde his reader, how <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaw againe rejecteth and relinquisheth the principles</HI> (as he tearms them) <HI>of &s;ome Non-conformi&s;ts:</HI> As I hope Mai&s;ter Can will in like manner of &s;ome Separati&s;ts, unle&s;&s;e he mean to condemne his own Churches con&s;titution, as Antichri&s;tian in a high degree.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="3" TYPE="reason">
<PB N="80" REF="46">
<HEAD>The third Rea&s;on.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>What&s;oever mini&s;tery is &s;uch, as none can heare or have any &s;pirituall com|munion with it, but in &s;o doeing he &s;hall wor&s;hip the image of the bea&s;t, &amp; re|ceive his marke in his forehead or hand; that mini&s;tery may none heare, or have any &s;pirituall communion withall.</P>
<P>But the pre&s;ent mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England is &s;uch, as none can have any &s;pirituall communion therewith; but in &s;o doeing, he &s;hall wor|&s;hip the bea&s;ts image, and receive his marke in his forehead or hand. Ergo,</P>
<P>None may heare or have any &s;pirituall communion therewith.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>This rea&s;on for the effect and &s;ub&s;tance thereof differeth not from the &s;e|cond. For what is it (by his own interpretation) to wor&s;hip the bea&s;ts image, but to &s;ubject him&s;elfe to the mini&s;tery and wor&s;hip of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y? &amp; how is it po&s;&s;ible for him to proove this without running to the former rea&s;ons, for their help therein?</P>
<P>For the proofe of the a&s;&s;umption, he &s;etts us downe a tedious di&s;cour&s;e of &s;ome &s;ixe leaves of paper, teaching what is meant by the bea&s;t, and his image, and by receiving the marke in the forehead or hand. The &s;umme and effect whereof is this.</P>
<P>That <HI>by bea&s;t we are to under&s;tand the Romane dominion, and An|tichri&s;ts hierarchy, with all the offices, Laws and autority appertaining thereunto.</HI> That <HI>by worshiping the beasts image, may be under &s;tood the yeelding of &s;pirituall &s;ubjection to that Antichri&s;tian Kingdome, in the Laws office &amp; juri&s;diction thereof.</HI> That <HI>by receiving the marke in the forehead or hand, is ment publickely to profe&s;&s;e and ob&s;erve them; not being ashamed of the bea&s;ts ways, And this doe all they who &s;ubmi t to the government of Prelates, Prie&s;ts, Par&s;ons, Vicars, book-worship,</HI> &amp;c.</P>
<P>Not to c<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ntend about this interpretation; but to &s;uppo&s;e it true; there is nothing in &s;ub&s;tance here brought to confirm the 3. Rea&s;on, but that which is in the 2. Rea&s;on. Namely: that therefore we wor&s;hip the bea&s;t, in commu|nicating
<PB N="81" REF="46"> with our mini&s;tery, becau&s;e it is the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y: and therefore it needs no other an&s;were then that which hath been given all|ready.</P>
<P>Onely thus much further; That for men &s;o far forth to &s;ubmitt to the go|vernment of &s;uch Prelates, &amp;c. as our Laws doe require, is not <HI>to yeeld &s;piri|tuall &s;ubjection to the Kingdome of Antichri&s;t;</HI> nor without &s;hame to profe&s;&s;e the bea&s;ts ways. For they may notwith&s;tanding that, be &s;ubject to Chri&s;t and his Laws, and to fight again&s;t the bea&s;t: Yea though it &s;hould be granted, that in&s;undry particulars they yeeld to &s;ome things, in theire u&s;e Antichri&s;tian, and unlawfull: which the be&s;t reformed Churches and mini&s;ters &s;ometimes of ig|norance or infirmity may doe, and yet remaine the Churches and mini&s;tery of Chri&s;t.</P>
<P>This al&s;o Mai&s;ter Can pa&s;&s;eth by, &s;uppo&s;ing it &s;eemes, Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws verdict true of it, as an idle repetition of rea&s;ons, formerly delivered; &amp; for want of better &s;tore, to make &s;hew of more variety, new di&s;hed, &amp; with &s;ome other garni&s;hment now &s;erved in againe.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="4" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The fourth Rea&s;on.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>None may heare or joyn in any &s;pirituall communion with that mini&s;tery, which deriveth not their power and function of mini&s;tery from Chri&s;t, which is the head for the Edification of his Church, which is his body.</P>
<P>Such is the mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England.</P>
<P>Therefore none may heare, or joyn in &s;pirituall communion therewith.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>This Rea&s;on is the &s;ame with the fir&s;t: For it is all one to be derived from Chri&s;t; and to be &s;ett by Chri&s;t in his Church. The other words which here he addeth, doe not more vary the force of the argument, then a new garment put upon the &s;ame witne&s;&s;e, would make him a new witne&s;&s;e, and indifferent from him&s;elfe.</P>
<P>In the proofe of the A&s;&s;umption he daubs &s;ixe pages, bringing therein nothing but his olde brokery: the &s;ub&s;tance whereof is as fol|loweth.</P>
<P N="1"><PB N="82" REF="47">1: That <HI>our mini&s;ters have not tho&s;e offices which Chri&s;t hath given to his Church, for the worke of his mini&s;tery.</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. That <HI>it is the mini&s;tery of Deacons and Prie&s;ts made by the Prelates.</HI></P>
<P N="3">3. That <HI>they were left in England by the Pope, and are &s;till in the Kingdome of Antichrist, where they first ro&s;e; and therefore it is dive|lish; and by con&s;equent, the more gifts and truth, the mini&s;ters bring with them the more they upholde the mystery of iniquity, and intice un|to theire &s;tolne waters, and hid bread.</HI></P>
<P N="4">4. That <HI>our Church-a&s;&s;emblys are not true vi&s;ible Churches of Chri&s;t, un&s;eparated from the world, not joined together in commu|nion of the Go&s;pell by voluntary profe&s;sion of the faith and &s;ubmi&s;sion to the government of Chri&s;t, but &s;tanding in bondage unto Antichri&s;t.</HI></P>
<P>The very rehear&s;all of which Rea&s;ons, is an&s;were &s;ufficient; he being not able to proove any of the&s;e a&s;&s;ertions, but either by the A&s;&s;umption it &s;elfe, that they are braught to proove, or one by another circularly.</P>
<P>Contrarily I affirm:</P>
<P N="1">1. That there is no ordinary mini&s;teriall office, that Chri&s;t hath given to his Church, for the worke of his mini&s;tery, but our mini&s;ters either have, or by the Laws ought to have the &s;ame.</P>
<P N="2">2. That it is a mini&s;tery as oppo&s;ite, for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof, to the mini|&s;tery of popi&s;h Prie&s;ts and Deacons, as light is oppo&s;ite to darkne&s;&s;e.</P>
<P N="3">3. That the Pope left not &s;uch Prie&s;ts and Deacons as ours are, nor hath any &s;uch in his Kingdome: but that our Prie&s;ts and Deacons have been under God and the Prince, the principall per&s;ons that have driven the Pope and his Prie&s;ts and Deacons out of the Realm. that it is divili&s;h, for any to &s;ay that they are divili&s;&s;i, except they can proove it by better Rea&s;ons. That they that have the be&s;t gifts doe not intice any to &s;tolne waters, or hidden bread, or to upholde any my&s;tery of iniquity; Except the Go&s;pell of Je&s;us Chri&s;t, and the true and onely meanes of &s;alvation, be the my&s;tery of iniquity.</P>
<P N="4">4. That our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, being &s;uch as by the Laws of the Land they ought to be are &s;o far forth &s;eparated from the world, joyned together in the communion of the Go&s;pell by the voluntary profe&s;&s;ion of faith, and freed from Antichri&s;t, &amp;c. as is &s;ufficient to make them true vi&s;ible Churches of Chri&s;t; notwith&s;tanding that many things may be wanting to the full and de&s;i|red
<PB N="83" REF="47"> perfection of them. And I doubt not, but we &s;hall be far more able at any time, by rea&s;ons out of Gods word to proove the&s;e points; then ever Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on will be to proove the contrary. And yet, it were ea&s;ie to proove any thing by &s;uch a jugling methode of Rea&s;oning, as Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on hath gotten. For he can proove you the 1. rea&s;on by the 2. the 2. by the 1. the 3. by the 1. &amp; 2. the 1. and 2. by the 3. the 4. hy the 1. 2. and 3. and every of them by the 4. and all foure by that que&s;tion, which here they are brought to proove.</P>
<P>To this in defence of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on as ju&s;tly liable to the forenamed Ex|ception, Mai&s;ter Can &s;aith as litle almo&s;t, as to the former; onely gives a &s;natch or a &s;narle rather, at that which Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;aith; That <HI>there is no or|dinary mini&s;teriall office, which Christ hath given to his Church, but theire mini&s;ters either have, or by the Laws ought to have the &s;ame:</HI> and telleth his Reader, that <HI>he hath before</HI> (but we know not where) <HI>prooved that this is not true.</HI> And that <HI>Maister Bradshaw u&s;eth a juggling methode of Rea&s;oning: theire mini&s;ters have &s;uch; becau&s;e by Law they ought to have them:</HI> and that <HI>a man, by the &s;ame manner of arguing, may proove, that there be no theeves, trai|ters, whore mongers, &amp;c. within the Kings dominions; becau&s;e by the Laws every one should be true, loyall, chast; which would be laughed at of all; and yet the former is to the &s;ame effect, or el&s;e it &s;erveth to no u&s;e at all, but to shew that the man had more will to doe mi&s;chiefe, then he had either witt or skill to accomplish the &s;ame.</HI></P>
<P>But this is indeed not <HI>a juggling,</HI> but a meere cavilling and calumniating me|thode and manner of replying. For Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw doth not &s;o rea&s;on, that <HI>therefore our mini&s;ters have them; becau&s;e by Law they ought to have them,</HI> but that <HI>our mini&s;ters either have them,</HI> (as implying, that they doe ordinarily enjoy them and execute them,) <HI>or</HI> (whether they doe enjoy them &amp; execute them, or no) <HI>by our Laws they ought to have them.</HI> The very con&s;titution of our Church, as appeares by the bookes them&s;elves objected by M^r. Iohn&s;on to the contra|rie, enjoyning and requiring the &s;ame of them.</P>
<P>Nor is the clau&s;e here therefore <HI>unu&s;efull:</HI> becau&s;e it meeteth with &s;uch ob|jections as Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on el&s;where bringeth from our Church-canons &amp; con|&s;titutions. The&s;e &s;ory and &s;en&s;le&s;&s;e cavills therefore, be&s;eeming &s;uch as defend an ill cau&s;e, and want &s;ound matter to &s;upport it, doe evidently &s;hew indeed (as he &s;aith of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw) that Mai&s;ter Can hath more malice, than might,
<PB N="84" REF="48"> more will, than witt or skill to doe mi&s;cheif; and more ability to calumniate, then to maintaine an orderly di&s;pute.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="5" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The fifth Rea&s;on.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>None may heare, or have any &s;pirituall communion with tho&s;e mini&s;ters, which mini&s;ter the holy things of God, and worke upon the con&s;ciences of men, by vertue of a fal&s;e &s;pirituall calling.</P>
<P>Such are the mini&s;ters of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England. Ergo</P>
<P>None may heare, or have any &s;pirituall communion with them.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>This argument, which here he brings again&s;t our mini&s;tery, is the very &s;ame with the 2. For by <HI>a fal&s;e &s;pirituall calling,</HI> he meanes <HI>a calling proceeding from the Apo&s;ta&s;y of Antichri&s;t.</HI></P>
<P>The propo&s;ition he prooves for brevity &s;ake by five and thirty places of Scripture. And yet who&s;oever &s;hall be plea&s;ed to take the pains to examine them, &s;hall finde that neither &s;everally, nor joyntly they proove the &s;ame.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption, where on the whole weight of the controver&s;ie leaneth, he prooveth onely by the fir&s;t argument, whereby be prooved the A&s;&s;umption of the 2. Rea&s;on, viz.</P>
<P><HI>Becau&s;e they doe it by vertue of theire mini&s;tery received of theire Prelates, from theire &s;pirituall autority, which is u&s;urped and Antichri&s;tian.</HI> And this is all this witne&s;&s;e hath to &s;ay; and all the an&s;were it needeth: onely he wande|reth into certaine objections and queries, grounded upon &s;ome &s;uppo&s;ed de|fences of &s;ome of our mini&s;ters, unto which I will (though I need not) give a briefe an&s;were from point to point.</P>
<P>Here Mai&s;ter Can lets all goe as it will: onely chargeth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw with <HI>idle &s;coffing at Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on for quotation of many Scriptures.</HI> Where|as he taxeth Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on (and it &s;eemeth not unju&s;tly; for Mai&s;ter Can his Proctor &s;tands mute here in his defence) for alledging a multitude of Scriptures, for that, which <HI>they neither &s;everally, nor jointly proove.</HI> That which is indeed a foule abu&s;e of Scripture, though with them overu&s;uall. And Mai&s;ter Cans office had been, (if he could at lea&s;t) to have cleared his client of wrong therein offered to Gods &s;acred Worde, by prooving his proofes pertinent. For as for
<PB N="85" REF="48"> his twitting Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw for <HI>not quoting Scipture,</HI> his place required it not; his office being not to proove, but to an&s;were by de&s;tinction or deniall.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Some &s;ay, they preach, not by vertue of theire mini&s;tery taken from the Prelates; but by vertue of &s;ome other calling and authority.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>I know none, having received ordination from the Prelates, that need de|nie that they preach partly by vertue of the mini&s;tery which they have taken from them: no though they holde the calling of Prelates unlawfull. For what is the mini&s;tery which they have taken from them, for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof; but (after a triall of theire gifts) a liberty and leave granted unto them to preach the word of God; and admini&s;ter the Sacraments, in &s;uch congregations as they &s;hall be called unto.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Why will &s;uch &s;eeme to renounce that calling received of the Prelates, and yet blame us for doeing the like?</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>They may acknowledge a further calling, then that of the Prelates, and yet not therein renounce the calling received from the Prelates, but rather ratify the &s;ame. For the Prelates, being learned Divines, and having approoved of their gifts, and by words and letters te&s;timoniall given liberty, to execute the mini&s;|tery of the Go&s;pell, they doe not thereby thru&s;t them into a mini&s;tery, but they leave them to be further called or cho&s;en, either by the people or tho&s;e Patrones, unro who&s;e fidelity the people have committed this charge.</P>
<P>And therefore this acknowledging of a further calling, maketh nothing to the ju&s;tification of the proud and ignorant &s;ci&s;me of the&s;e per&s;ons.</P>
<P N="1">1, <HI>In this invective</HI> (for &s;o he is plea&s;ed to &s;tile it) Mai&s;ter Can telleth us,
<PB N="86" REF="49"> <HI>there are many grievious errors bound up; but one that for lying &s;urmounts the<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="right margin cropped or obscured" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1+ letters"> all.</HI> And what is that, thinke we? Surely this; <HI>that the Prelates doe not thru&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="right margin cropped or obscured" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1+ letters"> them into a mini&s;tery, but leave them to be called by the people, or patrones,</HI> &amp;c. This he &s;aith he hath, prooved el&s;ewhere to be very fal&s;e; and <HI>it is &s;trange to him, that they should dare to affirm &s;o known and apparent an untruth.</HI></P>
<P>But this is a &s;ory cavill, &s;ince that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws meaning is manife&s;t, that the mini&s;ters are not upon the Prelates ordaining them, nece&s;&s;arily thereby putt into any pa&s;torall charge or mini&s;teriall imployment. Nor doth Mai&s;ter Can proove any &s;uch thing in that place of this his rambling rap&s;odie, that he turneth us over to, for the ju&s;tification of this his charge.</P>
<P>As for the other <HI>many grievious errors</HI> in this invective of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, &s;ince Mai&s;ter Can hath not vouch&s;afed to tell us what they are, we have nothing to &s;ay to them, till he be plea&s;ed to detect them: and till then therefore we let him with the re&s;t of his lavi&s;h language here, containing no new charge, but de&s;canting and dilating in his tragicall outcries after his u&s;uall gui&s;e upon the former, pa&s;&s;e for the pre&s;ent.</P>
<P N="2">2. Hee demandeth <HI>&s;ome good proofe for the things, th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">t this bolde man</HI> (re|member you mu&s;t, who &s;peaks it) <HI>here affirmeth. Fir&s;t that the people have com|mitted this charge unto the fidelitie of patrones. 2. If they have, whither the thing be Lawfull or no?</HI></P>
<P>Now what be the <HI>things</HI> that <HI>this bolde man here affirmeth?</HI> for Mai&s;ter Can relateth but one; and that one might ea&s;ily (if need were) be confirmed out of tho&s;e Authors that have written, either modern of ancient, of the grounds of &s;uch right of patronage, ari&s;ing from the foundation of Parochiall Churches or the endowment of them, confirmed by our Laws, to which the whole body of the realme are parties: not to adde that, which is well enough known; that ma|ny of them are no other then <HI>Feoffees</HI> in tru&s;t for the body of the Pari&s;h or con|gregation, being by their joinct act therein infeoffed. But Mai&s;ter Cans of|fice was to have di&s;prooved it, if he could. For as for his other quere of the <HI>Law|fulne&s;&s;e</HI> of the thing; Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;peakes onely <HI>de facto:</HI> nor doth he de|liver any one word in way of approbation of it; much le&s;&s;e <HI>laboureth,</HI> (as Mai|&s;ter Can here chargeth him) <HI>what he can,</HI> (which is utterly untrue) <HI>to maintaine &s;o vile and wicked a thing,</HI> as he tearmeth it.</P>
<P>Nor, on the other &s;ide, if any other doe (as he &s;aith) condemne all <HI>Patrones as Latrones,</HI> or any patrones by theire abu&s;e of the tru&s;t repo&s;ed in them, have de&s;ervedly been &s;o &s;tiled, is that ought to Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, who hath nothing here to an&s;were for, but what he him&s;elfe hath here avowed?</P>
<PB N="87" REF="49">
<P>But what is all this to the &s;trengthning of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons objection, &amp; his demand, <HI>why &s;uch, as them&s;elves renounce the calling received from the Prelates, blame him and his for the like?</HI> or to the taking away of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws direct an&s;were thereunto; that <HI>&s;uch men doe not wholly re<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ounce it, though they acknowledge a further calling; nor doe blame them &s;o much for renouncing of it, as for their &s;editious and arrogant &s;chi&s;me, and their unchri&s;tian and uncharitable cen&s;ure of others?</HI></P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>If they preach by vertue of an other calling, how then &s;tand they mini&s;ters of that Church, where no other is allowed? and how impo&s;e they them&s;elves upon any of their pari&s;h a&s;&s;emblys, &s;eeing the Lawes of the Land allow onely the Prelacy, Prie&s;thood and Deaconry afore&s;aid?</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>Though this &s;hould be granted, which he in his ignorant &s;implicity doth &s;uppo&s;e, that &s;ome among&s;t us, having been ordained by the Prelates, did exer|ci&s;e our mini&s;tery by vertue of an other calling; and though the Law of the Land allow no other, yet (e&s;pecially &s;o long as they are permitted to execute theire mini&s;tery by tho&s;e in Authoritie, though it be by vertue of an other cal|ling) they are to be reputed mini&s;ters of that Church, that hath u&s;e of theire mi|ni&s;tery.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on</HI></P>
<P>How all&s;o herein can they avoid, to be both intruders and hypocrites? intru|ders, in taking upon them&s;elves a publicke office in that Church again&s;t the publick Laws and con&s;titutions thereof; hypocrites, becau&s;e they pretend in &s;hew one thing to the Prince and State, and yet perform an other indeed?</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>All the&s;e inferences are upon a fal&s;e &s;uppo&s;ition, yet if there were any &s;uch per&s;ons, they could no more therein be &s;aid to be intruders and hypocrites, then they of the Separation are. For though the publick Laws &s;hould be again&s;t any other calling, yet &s;o long as they take an office by a good calling, they cannot be &s;aid to intrude them&s;elves. Neither doe any &s;uch among&s;t us (if there be any &s;uch) pretend in &s;hew any more, than they doe indeed perform. For &s;o far forth as any differ in judgment from the publick Laws of the State, they are ready to profe&s;&s;e it, being called thereunto; and they practi&s;e onely that, which they
<PB N="88" REF="50"> judge Lawfull; being as ready as any of the &s;eparation, to &s;uffer rather then pra|cti&s;e, approove, or a&s;&s;ent unto any thing, which they judge unlawfull and un|warrantable.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>But &s;uppo&s;e they had &s;ome other Lawfull calling; yet they al&s;o retaining this unlawfull calling of the Prelates, this were but to halt betweene two opinions, and to &s;et theire thre&s;holdes by Gods thre&s;holdes, and theire po&s;ts by Gods po&s;ts.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>How can &s;uch be &s;aid to retain the unlawfull calling of the Prelates, which prote&s;t again&s;t the &s;ame, and profe&s;&s;e that they preach not by that, but by an o|ther calling? But if there be any &s;uch, that exerci&s;e their mini&s;tery by an other calling, be&s;ides that of the Prelates, they therein refu&s;e obedience and confor|mitie to what&s;oever in the Prelates calling they judge unlawfull; and &s;o doe not joyn an unlawfull and a Lawfull calling together: but reject the corruptions, retain the good, and &s;upply the defect with an other calling. And this is the wor&s;t that can be made of it, but this is not to joine mans thre&s;holdes to Gods, &amp;c. but cleane contrarie to &s;eparate them as much as may be. And how can they be &s;aid to halt between two opinions, when &s;o far one lie, as the trueth (in theire judgment and opinion) is e&s;tabli&s;hed by publick Laws, they imbrace it, acknowledging theire &s;ubjection to the &s;ame Laws: and contrarily, where they judge that the Law &s;werves from the trueth, they take an other cour&s;e. But &s;till he beggs this (which is the maine controver&s;y) that our mini&s;ters have received an unlawfull calling from the Prelates.</P>
<P>In the next place he labours to proove by rea&s;ons, that <HI>how&s;oever &s;ome pretend an other calling, yet it is evident that they execute all the dutys of theire ministe|ries, by vertue of their calling taken from theire Prelates.</HI> But what of that? this will &s;tand him in no &s;tead, unle&s;&s;e it be given him of almes; That <HI>every mini|&s;tery executed by vertue of a calling taken from the Prelates, is an unlawfull, and an Antichri&s;tian mini&s;tery.</HI> For proove it he can not: And if we &s;hould, ex|cept this al&s;o be given him: That <HI>our mini&s;terie is executed</HI> ONELY <HI>by vertue of a calling taken from the Prelates;</HI> and not by any other power or ver|tue be&s;ides, taken either from God or man. But let us &s;ee his Rea&s;ons.</P>
<PB N="89" REF="50">
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. They can not &s;tand publick mini&s;ters, except they receive of the Pre|lates the Prie&s;thood and Deaconrie afore&s;aid.</P>
<P N="2">2. They are excommunicated <HI>ip&s;o facto,</HI> if they affirm, that they who are made Bi&s;hops, Deacons &amp; Prie&s;ts, are not Lawfully made, untill they have &s;ome other calling.</P>
<P N="3">3. The people have not the liberty of the Churches of Chri&s;t, nor power in this theire e&s;tate to choo&s;e and &s;ubmitt unto the true and Lawfull mini&s;tery appointed by Chri&s;t.</P>
<P N="4">4. Without and again&s;t the peoples con&s;ent, they are by the Prelates alone &s;ilenced, deprived and degraded from exerci&s;ing any mini&s;tety in tho&s;e a&s;&s;em|blys.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>The&s;e Rea&s;ons doe not proove that they exerci&s;e their mini&s;terie ONELY by vertue of a calling received from the Prelates: and therefore whether true or fal&s;e are nothing to the purpo&s;e; and unworthy any further an&s;were.</P>
<P>After this he fetcheth an other rode out, and laboureth to proove; that <HI>our mini&s;ters ought not to &s;uffer them&s;elves to be &s;ilenced, and depo&s;ed from their pub|lick mini&s;tery, no not by Lawfull Magi&s;trates:</HI> which is not onely fal&s;e and &s;edi|tious, as &s;hall appeare afterwards; but al&s;o idle and impertinent to the pre&s;ent controver&s;y: for if it were true, that mini&s;ters ought not to doe in this ca&s;e, as ours doe; yet this doth not argue, any corruption in the calling of their mini&s;te|ry, but a weakene&s;&s;e onely i<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> the per&s;ons that execute it; in yeelding further from their own right, then they need to doe. But let us con&s;ider the particu|lars, that he objecteth again&s;t our mini&s;ters in this re&s;pect.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>The Apo&s;tles, being true mini&s;ters of Chri&s;t, would not at the commande|ment of Lawfull Magi&s;trates, leave to preach: much le&s;&s;e &s;hould true mini&s;ters at the appointment of u&s;urping Prelates. Neither did the Apo&s;tles make their immediate calling from God, the ground of their refu&s;all; but this, that they ought to obey God rather then man; which is a duty required of all mini&s;ters &amp; Chri&s;tians.</P>
<PB N="90" REF="51">
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw.</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. Where he di&s;tingui&s;heth between &s;ilencing and depriving by <HI>Prelates,</HI> and <HI>Lawfull Magi&s;trates;</HI> it is in our cau&s;e, where the Prelates doe it by auto|rity and commi&s;&s;ion from Lawfull Magi&s;trates, a di&s;tinction without a diffe|rence.</P>
<P N="2">2. Though the Apo&s;tles did not a&s;&s;igne theire immediate calling from God, as the ground of theire refu&s;all in &s;o many letters and &s;yllables, yet that which they doe a&s;&s;igne, is by implication, and in effect the &s;ame with it: for it is as much as if they had &s;aid; <HI>God him&s;elfe hath impo&s;ed this calling upon us, &amp; not man; and therefore except we should rather obey man, than God, we may not forbeare this office, which he hath impo&s;ed upon us.</HI> For oppo&s;ing the obedience of God to the obedience of man, he therein pleades a calling from God, &amp; not from man: otherwi&s;e, if they had received a calling from man, there had been incongruity in the an&s;were: con&s;idering, that in common &s;en&s;e and rea&s;on, they ought &s;o far forth to obey men, forbidding them to exerci&s;e a calling, as they exerci&s;e the &s;ame by vertue of that calling. El&s;e by this rea&s;on a mini&s;ter &s;hould not cea&s;e to preach, upon the commandement of the Church, that hath cho&s;en him; but &s;hould be bound, to give them all&s;o the &s;ame an&s;were, which the Apo|&s;tles gave; which were ab&s;urd. So that by this gro&s;&s;e conceite of Mai&s;ter Iohn|&s;on, there &s;hould be no power in any &s;ort of men whom&s;oever, to depo&s;e a mi|ni&s;ter from his mini&s;tery; but that notwith&s;tanding any commandement of Church or State, the mini&s;ter is to continue in his mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>But for the further an&s;were of this his ignorant conceite, plainly tending to &s;edition, we are to know: that though the Apo&s;tles, Prophets and Evangeli&s;ts preached publickly where they were not hindered by open violence; and did not, nor might not leave their mini&s;terie upon any humane authoritie &amp; com|mandement what&s;oever, becau&s;e they did not enter into, or exerci&s;e the &s;ame upon the will and plea&s;ure of any man what&s;oever; yet they never erected and planted publick Churches and mini&s;terys in the face of the Magi&s;trate, whi|ther they would or no, or in de&s;pite of them. But &s;uch, in re&s;pect of the eye of the Magi&s;trate, were as private and invi&s;ible as might be.</P>
<P>Neither weere &s;ome of the Apo&s;tles onely forbidden, &s;o as others &s;hould be &s;uffered to preach the &s;ame Go&s;pell in their places; but the utter aboli&s;hing of Chri&s;tian religion, was manife&s;tly intended in &s;ilencing of them. But our Chur|ches, whereof we are mini&s;ters, are no private and &s;ecret a&s;&s;emblys, &s;uch as hide them&s;elves from the face of a per&s;ecuting Magi&s;trate and State, but are pub|lick,
<PB N="91" REF="51"> profe&s;&s;ing their wor&s;hip and doeing their religion, in the face of the Magi|&s;trate and State, yea and by his countenance autority and protection: and we are &s;et over tho&s;e Churches, not onely by a calling of our people, but all&s;o by the authoritie of the Magi&s;trate, who hath an armed power to hinder any &s;uch publick action; who is willing all&s;o to permitt and maintaine other true mini|&s;ters of the Go&s;pell in tho&s;e places where he forbiddeth &s;ome. If therefore after our publick calling, to mini&s;ter to &s;uch a known and publick Church, not by the Church onely, but by the Magi&s;trate all&s;o, the Magi&s;trate &s;hall have matter a|gain&s;t us (whither ju&s;t or unju&s;t, it skilleth not) and &s;hall in that regard forbid us to mini&s;ter to our Church: I &s;ee not by what warrant in Gods word, we &s;hould thinke ovr &s;elves bound notwith&s;tanding to exerci&s;e our mini&s;tery &s;till: Except we &s;hould think &s;uch a Law of mini&s;tery to lie upon us, that we &s;hould judge our &s;elves bound to runne upon the &s;wordes point of the Magi&s;trate, or to op|po&s;e &s;worde to &s;worde: It being not the u&s;e of the higher powers, in &s;uch ca&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s nakedly to forbid, but to &s;et a &s;worde to the brea&s;t; thereby to force them which &s;hall refu&s;e. And &s;uppo&s;e the Magi&s;trate &s;hould doe it unju&s;tly, &amp; again&s;t the will of the Church, and &s;hould therein &s;inne; yet doth not the Church in that re|gard cea&s;e to be a Church, nor ought &s;he therein to re&s;i&s;t the will of the Magi|&s;trate: Neither doth &s;he &s;tand bound, in regard of her affection to her mini&s;ter (how greate and de&s;erved &s;oever) to deprive her &s;elfe of the protection of the Magi&s;trate, by leaving her publick &s;tanding, to follow her mini&s;tery in private and the dark; refu&s;ing the benefit of all other publick mini&s;terie, which with the leave and liking of the Magi&s;trate, &s;he may enjoy.</P>
<P>Neither doe I know what warrant any ordinarie mini&s;ter hath by Gods wo<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">d in &s;uch a ca&s;e, &s;o to draw any &s;uch Church or people to his private mini|&s;tery, that thereby they &s;hould hazzard their outward State and quieth in the commonwealth where they live; when in &s;ome competent mea&s;ure they may publickly, with the grace and favours of the Magi&s;trate, enjoy the ordina<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">y meanes of their Salvation, by an other: and (except he have a call<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ng to m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="3 letters">|&s;ter to &s;ome other Church) he is to be content to live as a private member, till it &s;hall plea&s;e God to reconcile the Magi&s;trate unto him, and to call him aga<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ne to his own Church; labouring meane while privately upon particular occa&s;io<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s offered, to &s;trengthen and confirme in the ways of God, tho&s;e people that are deprived of his publick labours. And I take it, to be the duty of the people, in &s;uch a ca&s;e, if they will approove them&s;elves faithfull Chri&s;tians, and go<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">d &s;ub|jects, &s;o to &s;ubmitt to the mini&s;tery of an other, as that by praier, and all other good, dutifull, and loyall meanes, they may doe their be&s;t indeavour to obtaine
<PB N="92" REF="52"> him, of whom again&s;t their will they have been deprived, and &s;till to effect and love him as their Pa&s;tor: now if the people doe thus, then is that mini&s;ter called to be &s;ilent, not onely by the Magi&s;trate, but by them al&s;o, though with much grief.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>It is the duty of all mini&s;ters &amp; Chri&s;tians, as well as Apo&s;tles, to obey God and not man, when man forbiddeth that which God commandeth, or comman|deth, that which God forbiddeth.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>True, but God no where; that I can finde, commandeth, either a mini&s;ter to mini<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">er publickly in a publick Church maintained by the Magi&s;trate, again&s;t the will and in de<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">pite of the Magi&s;trate; no more then again&s;t the will and in de<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">pite of the Church it &s;el<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Uriah at the commandement of the King made an Altar after the fa&s;hion of that of Dama&s;cus; but therein &s;inned, though he offered thereon <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">uch burnt of|ferings as God had appointed, much le&s;&s;e may the mini&s;terie under the Go&s;pell be framed after any new manner devi&s;ed by man; lea&s;t of all after Antichri&s;t; though in that mini&s;tery many doctrines of the Go&s;pell be taught, &amp; &s;uch Sa|craments admini&s;tred as God hath ordained.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Brads<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">aw.</HI></P>
<P>This Example of Uriah the Prie&s;t is altogether impertinent, unto that which goeth before. It being one thing upon the commandement of the Magi&s;trate to forbeare the publick exerci&s;e of a true mini&s;tery: an other thing upon his commandement to frame a new mini&s;terie, after a new manner devi&s;ed by man, or Antichri&s;t.</P>
<P>After this, he runns out of his way again to &s;atisfy an objection that he had propounded &amp; indeavoured (as far as his learning would give him leave) to an&s;|were before.</P>
<P>And which doth nothing at all depend upon any thing that goeth before in this argument: wherein he re&s;embles &s;ome wanton currs, that take delight to runne round about to catch their own tailes: but let us &s;ee what it is he &s;aith.</P>
<PB N="93" REF="52">
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Here againe concerning &s;uch as pleade, that they teach the truth, and manie excellent points of Doctrine; It is to be ob&s;erved, that none may therefore heare their mini&s;terie under colour of learning the truth; becau&s;e in yeelding to heare and receive it from Antichri&s;ts mini&s;terie, they defile the temple of God, &amp; be|come the &s;ubjects of Antichri&s;t.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>Where he againe taketh it as a matter, that mu&s;t, whether we will or no, be granted unto him; that <HI>our mini&s;tery is Antichri&s;ts mini&s;tery;</HI> which needs no other an&s;were then before. Yet thus much further,</P>
<P N="1">1. That no mini&s;tery what&s;oever, (&s;o far forth as it teacheth the trueth of Chri&s;t, e&s;pecially a trueth oppo&s;ite to the Doctrine of An<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">chri&s;t,) is the m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ni&s;te|rie of Antichri&s;t. And tho&s;e which &s;hall &s;ubmitt and &s;ubject them e<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ves unto any mini&s;tery what&s;oever, onely &s;o farr forth as they mini&s;ter and teach &s;uch trueth, cannot therein be &s;aid to defile the temple of God; or to be &s;ubjects of Antichri&s;t, but be obedient to Ie&s;us <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">hri&s;t.</P>
<P N="2">2. Our mini&s;tery, in divers Congregations of the Land at lea&s;t, teach not onely <HI>many excellent points of Doctrine:</HI> but &s;o much Doctrine, as <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s &s;ufficient to the Salvation of him that beleeveth the &s;ame. Even all the main fundamen|tall points of Salvation clearely &s;et down in Gods word. Yea, and for ought any can proove to the contrarie, all other le&s;&s;e nece&s;&s;ary points, &s;o far forth as God hath revealed, and convinced theire con&s;ciences of the trueth of them.</P>
<P N="3">3. Tho&s;e among&s;t us, who make con&s;cience of hearing our mini&s;terie, doe not heare them under a colour of learning the trueth; but onely to th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s very end and pu<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">po&s;e, that they might learn the trueth, and therein the true way of &s;er|ving and wor&s;hiping God accordin<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> to his own will.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>And not to &s;peake of the many errors and fal&s;ehoods, which they al&s;o teach; it is no new thing that the mini&s;ters of Ant<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">chri&s;t, &s;hould in divers things teach and bring the trueth with them: for when Satan can not by fal<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ehood utter his wares, ordinances, mini&s;tery, wor&s;hip, he will be glad to utter the &s;ame by tea|ching the truth.</P>
<PB N="94" REF="53">
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw.</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. Our Errors, whither for weight, or number, or qualitie, are not &s;uch, &s;o great, &s;o m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ny, but they may befall unto true Chri&s;tians, whether mini&s;ters or people. Yea, (as Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on well knoweth) many of the martyrs of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t have lived and died, in more and greater errors of the <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ame kinde. And therefore well may he pa&s;&s;e by this point.</P>
<P>Th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s is but a piece of his &s;imple Rhetorick, carele&s;ly to &s;eeme to pa&s;&s;e by that which he can not proove. For how many errors can he name or number, that he is able to ju&s;tifie to be taught in the mini&s;terie of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys? What one truth of Religion can he name, that is not, or hath not been (when ju&s;t occa&s;ion hath been offered) taught by &s;ome of our mini&s;ters? I am not igno<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ant, that in his treati&s;es again&s;t M. A. H. and M. H. I. he mu&s;te|reth a whole troope of pretended Errors: but &s;uppo&s;e them to be &s;o many di|&s;t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">nct Errors, how doth he proove they are taught in our mini&s;terie, or that they are required by Law to be taught?</P>
<P>There is <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">deed a conformity and &s;ub&s;cription required to &s;ome of them, &amp; a Canon that requires, that the late Canons be read in Churches, &s;ome times in the yeare: as all<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">o, that the booke of Articles be read, at the fir&s;t entrance upon an Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall charge, with a te&s;tification of A&s;&s;ent unto it. But is this mini|&s;terially to teach the Errors contained in the &s;aid bookes? may not a man in the weakne&s;&s;e of his judgement, and in infirmity, at his fir&s;t entrance into a calling, conforme and &s;ub&s;cribe unto &s;ome things, not &s;o warrantable and true, &amp; yet not teach them for trueths? yea may he not for all that, teach doctrine in it &s;e<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">fe d<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">rectly contrary to tho&s;e untruthes? yea and yet &s;atisfy al&s;o the minde of the Law, which being humane, and therefore not allways perfect, may command that very truth to be taught, wh<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ch being thorowly followed, will de&s;troy &s;ome untruths;, which the &s;ame Law all o requires?</P>
<P>Further, it is one thing to reade the Canons to the people, the<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">eby to de|clare unto them, what is required at their hands by their governers; an other th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ng, to teach and ju&s;tify the errors contained in them: and to te&s;tify an a&s;|&s;ent unto &s;ome errors, is not mini&s;terially to in&s;truct the people in tho&s;e errors.</P>
<P N="2">2. Though it be <HI>no new thing that the ministers of Antichrist, should in divers things bring the trueth with them;</HI> Yet this is a new thing, and never heard off before, that the mini&s;ters of Antichri&s;t &s;hould teach the whole trueth of Ie<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">us Chri&s;t, for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof: that they &s;hould oppo&s;e directly and
<PB N="95" REF="53"> zealou&s;ly, again&s;t the maine and fundamentall doctrines of Antichri&s;t; that they &s;hould profe&s;&s;e him to be Antichri&s;t, and that man of &s;inne; &amp; to the &s;hedding of their bloud &s;hould exerci&s;e their mini&s;tery again&s;t Antichri&s;t and his King|dome, prote&s;ting again&s;t him and his &s;ervice. Were it not new and &s;trange, that a man &s;hould be counted a true &s;ubject unto a Prince then, when he doth openly prote&s;t again&s;t him; counting him an u&s;urping tyrant, and imploying all the wit, power and &s;trength he hath again&s;t him? Such &s;ubjects of Anti|chri&s;t are our mini&s;ters, or by the Laws &s;uch they ought to be. Could he be &s;aid to be a mini&s;ter of Chri&s;t, that yeelding to &s;ome externall rites, and profe&s;|&s;ing &s;ome doctrines of Chri&s;tian faith, doth notwith&s;tanding directly, openly &amp; profe&s;&s;edly renounce Chri&s;t and his &s;ervice, and profe&s;&s;e h m&s;elfe to be an ene|my to him, and his Kingdome? if it holde not in the one, is it not both a new and &s;trange thing, that it &s;hould holde in the other?</P>
<P N="3">3. Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on out of his knowledge mu&s;t teach us, how Satan can be &s;aid by teaching the truth, to utter his own mini&s;tery or wor&s;hip: or how a Sa|tanicall mini&s;tery can be uttered, when in and by the mini&s;tery, nothing but the truth of Chri&s;t is admini&s;tred. What is the mini&s;terie of Sata<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">, but the mini&s;te|ry of error? &amp; how can the mini&s;tery of error be uttered by teaching the truth? or how can a mini&s;tery be &s;aid to be uttered by a truth, when it is the mini&s;terie it &s;elfe that uttered the truth? Surely no more then a marchandize can be &s;aid to be uttered by &s;elling of wares. And were it not a wonder, if a man &s;hould utter his bad merchandize by &s;elling good and &s;ound wares? Satan and Anti|chri&s;t indeed together with &s;ome truths, &s;eeke to utter much fal&s;ehood, which otherwi&s;e (they know) would not be received. And many of our mini&s;ters are content to yeeld to &s;ome things, which they judge not &s;o convenient (if it did otherwi&s;e &s;eeme good to the State) to the end they may utter the truth. But that like Antichri&s;t and Satan, our mini&s;ters &s;hould propound this unto them|&s;elves, to teach &s;ome trueths to this end, that they might thereby utter fal&s;ehood and lies, fal&s;e mini&s;teries and wor&s;hips, is a malitious imputation, and can ne|ver be ju&s;tifyed..</P>
<P>Here Mai&s;ter Can having all this while been &s;ilent, like hounds at a lo&s;&s;e, &amp; having let Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons fond objections, &amp; as frivolous rea&s;ons pa&s;&s;e, as &s;uf|ficiently by Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw an&s;wered; begins at length again to open and bark after his wonted manner; but, as Currs unmanaged, that run after a wrong game, and by theire yelping, indeavour to draw the re&s;t of the pack after them.</P>
<P N="1">1. <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaw</HI> (&s;aith he) <HI>asketh what errors we can proove in theire Church, &amp; is &s;o audacious to affirme, that tho&s;e &s;et downe by Mai&s;ter John|&s;on
<PB N="96" REF="54"> are pretended.</HI> And hereupon he reckoneth up no le&s;&s;e then 70. taking up well neere 2 whole pages, which he &s;aith, <HI>have been published under our own hands, and profe&s;&s;ed to be poi&s;onfull leaven of Antichri&s;t.</HI> As among the re&s;t. 1. <HI>The Popish names and offices of Arch-Bishops.</HI> 2. <HI>Lord-Bishops.</HI> 3. <HI>Their titles of primacy and Lords grace.</HI> 4. <HI>Their vi&s;itations,</HI> &amp;c. 5. <HI>Their dominions, revenues and retinue.</HI> 6. <HI>Their black Chimer, white rotchet, and other popish ap|parrel.</HI> 6. <HI>Chancellors.</HI> 8. <HI>Deanes.</HI> 9. <HI>Subdeanes,</HI> and &s;o forward, to <HI>Par&s;ons, Vicars, Parish Prie&s;ts, Chaplens, Clarks, Sextines,</HI> &amp;c. For he will be &s;ure to bring in the &s;ame per&s;ons, more then once, under divers names, rather then mi&s;&s;e of his account. Though he &s;aith, <HI>he could to the&s;e adde many a &s;tore of vile errors more.</HI> It is marvell, when the poore <HI>Sextine</HI> could not e&s;cape him, how the rin|ging of bells, and making of graves, and &s;weeping the Church, and &s;hutting the dores, came not in among the re&s;t, as <HI>vile,</HI> (not abu&s;es but) <HI>errors</HI> in his beaderoll, but they are, it may be, among tho&s;e that he &s;aith <HI>he could,</HI> but doth not <HI>adde.</HI></P>
<P>Whereas Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw neither demandeth <HI>what errors can be prooved to be in our Church</HI> (which he denieth not &s;ome to be) but <HI>how many errors he can name or number, to be taught in the mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys.</HI> And all that Mai&s;ter Can therefore here prates, is but meere &s;moake, unles he can proove his whole <HI>beaderoll of vile errors,</HI> (as he tearmeth them) <HI>the black chimer, the white rochet,</HI> &amp; <HI>the Sexlines office,</HI> among the re&s;t, to be <HI>taught,</HI> yea and generally taught, <HI>in all our Church-a&s;&s;emblys:</HI> and againe proove them to be <HI>errors</HI> &s;o <HI>vile,</HI> that they make the Church-a&s;&s;emblys, where they are taught, to be no Chur|ches of Chri&s;t. For without this pre&s;umed, no &s;uch &s;eparation from our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, as they maintaine, and Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on undertakes to demon&s;trate, allbeit the&s;e were granted all to be <HI>errors,</HI> can be nece&s;&s;arily thence inferred.</P>
<P>As for his calling them <HI>a whole troope of pretended errors,</HI> which Mai&s;ter Can al&s;o taketh exception to, and calleth <HI>unrea&s;onable daubing</HI>) he might well &s;o doe for divers cau&s;es.</P>
<P N="1">1. Becau&s;e, it &s;eemeth, M^r. Iohn&s;on had done there, as M^r. Can here, made di&s;tinctions without difference, to make his li&s;t of them the longer; &amp; &s;et down as di&s;tinct errors, points in &s;ub&s;tance the &s;ame.</P>
<P N="2">2. Becau&s;e he might deeme &s;ome of them at lea&s;t, &s;uch as can not be proo|ved &s;o to be. For what others have &s;aid, is nothing to him; nor is he bound to an&s;were to it, or to make good what &s;uch have &s;aid.</P>
<P N="3">3. Becau&s;e M^r. Iohn&s;on it is likely relateth them there onely, as M^r. Can doth here; &amp; they might well be tearmed, what ever they were in them&s;elves, in regard of him, <HI>pretended,</HI> untill they be prooved by him &s;o to be.</P>
<PB N="97" REF="54">
<P>And La&s;tly, the que&s;tion is, not &s;o much here what they are, but it being ta|ken for granted, that they are &s;uch as they are pretended to be, whither they be generally taught in our Church-a&s;&s;emblies or no.</P>
<P>As litle therefore to the purpoe is all that that followeth, that <HI>the errors</HI> above named are <HI>by autority commanded, and constantly practi&s;ed</HI> (in every Church-a&s;&s;embly, think we, <HI>a black Chimer, a white rotchet, a Lord-Bishop, di&s;pen&s;ation for boyes and dolts to have benefices?</HI> Yea or <HI>reading of homilies,</HI> or <HI>a dumb mi|ni&s;tery?) and upon all occa&s;ions defended in publike and private;</HI> and there are <HI>terrible Canons</HI> again&s;t tho&s;e that &s;peakes again&s;t our Liturgie, Ceremonies, Church-government and ordination. All this nothing touching (though never &s;o true, as part of it is nothing le&s;&s;e then true) the point in pre&s;ent agitation.</P>
<P N="2">2. To Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws demand of the contrarie, <HI>what one truth of reli|gion is not taught by &s;ome of our mini&s;ters.</HI> M^r. Can an&s;weres.</P>
<P N="1">1. That <HI>this is not materiall to the point in controver&s;ie; &s;eeing that none of them teach true Doctrine, but in a fal&s;e and Antichri&s;tian calling;</HI> taking that for granted &s;till, that remains &s;till to be prooved: and yet is that <HI>materiall,</HI> that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw here &s;aith to Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons charge, and the an&s;were to his objection.</P>
<P N="1">1. That <HI>if we will beleeve the Non-conformists, Mai&s;ter Brad|shaw hath &s;mall cau&s;e to brag thus of our preaching, &s;ince that our mi|ni&s;ters are for the most part ignorant a&s;&s;es, that either can not, or doe not preach; &amp; a number of tho&s;e that doe, prophane &amp; heathenish Ora|tors, the grace of who&s;e preaching lyeth in affected eloquence, fond fa|bles,</HI> &amp;c.</P>
<P>For Mai&s;ter Can, or who ever el&s;e he be, that &s;hall pa&s;&s;e &s;uch opprobrious tearmes upon the mo&s;t part of our mini&s;tery, (how e&s;teemed of in the reformed Churches of Chri&s;t abroade, the te&s;timonies given in the writings of the prin|cipall men of note among them for learning and piety there unto; and theire &s;ending over of theire young Students to learn a methode of preaching from the mini&s;ters in the&s;e parts, doth evidently &s;hew) I will &s;ay no more; but as the angel &s;ometime to the Prince of detracters and calumniaters, in who&s;e traine Mai&s;ter Can may well claime a prime place, <HI>The Lord rebuke thee, Satan.</HI></P>
<P>But neither doth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw here <HI>brag of our preaching;</HI> wherein yet I &s;uppo&s;e we may truely &s;ay; that our Churches are not inferior for number of able men, yea and painfull mini&s;ters, to any of the Reformed Churches of Chri&s;t in foraine parts: Nor, though <HI>a number,</HI> yea <HI>the mo&s;t part of our mini|&s;ters</HI>
<PB N="98" REF="55"> were &s;uch as is here &s;aid, yet either would that any whit contradict ought that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw here implieth; to wit, that <HI>the generall body of nece&s;&s;arie &s;aving trueth, is entirely taught by &s;ome or other of our mini&s;ters;</HI> or ju&s;tifie the nece&s;&s;ary &s;eparation that the&s;e arrogant Schi&s;matikes undertake to defend, from the mini&s;terie or Church-a&s;&s;emblys of tho&s;e that are not &s;uch.</P>
<P N="3">3. That, <HI>though &s;ome of them deliver many &s;ound trueths; yet they lay not the axe to the roote of the tree; they &s;eeke not to &s;uppre&s;&s;e the evils that raign mo&s;t among&s;t them.</HI> And what are tho&s;e? <HI>devi&s;ed &s;ervice, fal&s;e mini&s;terie, Antichri|&s;tian government,</HI> &amp;c.</P>
<P>But 1. here is the que&s;tion pittyfullie begged: that taken for good &amp; gran|ted, that all the controver&s;ie is about; that <HI>our mini&s;terie is fal&s;e, and our &s;ervice devi&s;ed;</HI> in &s;uch &s;en&s;e as they intend: which neither he nor M^r. Iohn&s;on have been able hitherto to proove.</P>
<P N="2">2. Admitt the government e&s;tabli&s;hed with us were &s;uch as he &s;aith, (but neither doth attempt here, nor is able to proove) yet neither is that <HI>an evill rai|gning in our Church-a&s;&s;emblys;</HI> nor would the di&s;cu&s;&s;ing of &s;uch controver&s;ys <HI>profite the people much more</HI> (though Mai&s;ter Can &s;o inform us) <HI>then our loud &amp; long crying out of judgement, judgement onely against &s;wearers, drunckards, u&s;u|rers, whoremongers,</HI> &amp;c. (as if this were all the &s;ubject matter of our preaching in the&s;e parts:) &amp; much le&s;&s;e then the opening and pre&s;&s;ing of the maine points of Chri&s;tian faith and piety: which it is to be feared many of M^r. Cans faction are too raw in; though they can prate and pratle at large, more by roate than by rea&s;on, of a Churches calling and con&s;titution.</P>
<P N="3">3. To that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;aith concerning, not <HI>the defence of reading,</HI> (as Mai&s;ter Can fal<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ely relateth him, but) <HI>the reading of the booke of Articles &amp; Canons in the Church:</HI> that <HI>the reading of them is not ministerially to teach the errors (if any be) in the &s;aid bookes:</HI> Not approoving the &s;ame, but di&s;approo|ving it rather, as a weakenes in tho&s;e, that &s;uppo&s;ing &s;ome errors therein con|tained, yet te&s;tify their a&s;&s;ent thereunto; di&s;tingui&s;hing between <HI>reading them as things required by theire governers, and justifying the things contained in them.</HI></P>
<P>To this I &s;ay Mai&s;ter Can replieth.</P>
<P N="1">1. That <HI>if that which Maister Bradshaw &s;aith be true, yet the fault is not the les.</HI> Which is nothing at all to the purpo&s;e.</P>
<P N="2">2. That <HI>he &s;peaketh fal&s;ely herein: for it is enjoyned them as a part of theire office, and none may by Law doe it but they.</HI> Which though it were granted to be as M^r. Can affirmeth; yet would it not proove that <HI>the reading of it &s;o enjoy|ned,
<PB N="99" REF="55"> were mini&s;terially to teach the things in the &s;aid booke contained;</HI> nor that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw therefore &s;peaketh untrue therein. Though mini&s;ters be enjoined to publi&s;h in the congregation his Maje&s;tys letters patents, in behalfe of &s;uch as have &s;u&s;tained great and grievous pretended lo&s;&s;es, by ca&s;ualty of fire or wrack at &s;ea, &amp;c. and none may by autoritie publi&s;h the &s;ame but they: yet it followeth not therefore, that they doe <HI>m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ni&s;terial<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">y teach</HI> the relations therein contained.</P>
<P N="3">3. <HI>If they doe not teach them for trueths, then it mu&s;t be for lies and errors.</HI></P>
<P>But it followeth not, if (as M. Brad&s;haw &s;aith, and &s;o he &s;aith, nor doth M^r. Can d<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> proove him there<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">n) they teach them not at all.</P>
<P N="4">4. <HI>His an&s;were here,</HI> he &s;aith, <HI><GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s quite be&s;i<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">es the point;</HI> &amp; that <HI>he &s;eeks me<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">rely to cozen his Reader.</HI> And why &s;o? For&s;ooth, <HI>M^r, Ioh<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;on &s;pe<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter">k<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter">s of Arti<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">les an<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> Canons, v<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">le and wicked things,</HI> (though neither he nor M^r. Iohn&s;on &s;hew them to be &s;uch,) <HI>and to this he replieth,</HI> (an&s;wereth he &s;hould &s;ay) <HI>may not a man in the weaknes of his judgement and infirmity, at his fi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;t entrance into a calling, conform and &s;ub&s;c<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ibe to &s;ome things not &s;o warrantable &amp; true,</HI> &amp;c. <HI>Ergo he may conform to the damna<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">le Articles and Canons, reade them to the people. By the &s;ame rea&s;on of argu<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ng, he may be a Iew, a Turk, a Heathen, any thing.</HI></P>
<P>What a &s;hameles either bea&s;t or bedlam is this? for I know not whither a man &s;hould tearm him. Where doth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;ay any &s;uch thing, or frame any &s;uch argument? that which he &s;aith onely is this; that <HI>a man may at his fir&s;t entrance <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">nto a calling conforme and &s;ub&s;cribe to &s;ome th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ngs <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ot &s;o warrant|able and true, either ou<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter"> of weakenes of judgement</HI> (&s;uppo&s;ing them to be war|rantable and true, when indeed they are not) <HI>or out of infirmity</HI> (yeelding there unto contrary to his own judgement concerning them) <HI>and yet</HI> (<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">n his mini&s;tery afterward) <HI>not teach them fo trueth</HI> Now how this agreeth what M^r. Can here chargeth upon him, or how by ought that is here &s;aid, liberty is given for any man <HI>to be Tu<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">k, Iew o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter"> H<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">a<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">hen, or any thing,</HI> let any indifferent per&s;on judge.</P>
<P>For as for M^r. Cans raving clamours of <HI>vile, wicked, damnable Canons and A<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ticl<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s,</HI> and his appeale for &s;uch outcr<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">es to I know not what othe<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s, for di|&s;temper, it may be, not wholly unlike him&s;elfe; we are now <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">o enured to them, that we regard them no more, than the neighbouring borderers d<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e the none of the roaring downfalls of Nilus.</P>
<P N="5">5. Running back again, as in a wilde goo&s;e race, &amp; &s;u&s;pecting, it &s;eemeth, that he had not &s;ufficiently taken away &s;ome of M^r. B^s. an&s;weres to &s;ome of M^r. I^s. former rea&s;ons, under colour of di&s;covering &s;ome of M^r. B^s. <HI>&s;en&s;eles shif<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s,</HI> he taketh occa&s;ion to make an Almond leape backward, &amp; very &s;olemny relateth.</P>
<PB N="100" REF="56">
<P>That <HI>whereas Maister Iohn&s;on prooveth our mini&s;tery to be un|lawfull and Antichri&s;tian, becau&s;e neither theire offices, calling nor ad|ministration is according to Gods word; but all taken from Antichri&s;t; Mai&s;ter Bradshaw childishly tells us, that true pa&s;tors and <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">eachers may want &s;ome acce&s;&s;ory parts of theire offices, <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 word">. wh<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ch an&s;wereth no|thing to the point, nor is more to any purpo&s;e, then if a convicted trai|tor would &s;eeke to proove his cau&s;e to be otherwi&s;e for that he wants &s;ome acce&s;&s;ory parts of a true fuhject.</HI></P>
<P>Thus this man of a bra<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">en brow, &amp; (it is to be feared) of a &s;eared con&s;cience, not <HI>childishly,</HI> but malitiou&s;ly, as one de&s;perately bent to forge and vent any thing, though never &s;o untrue, tending to the di&s;grace of his adver&s;ary, e&s;peci|ally, if at the very in&s;tant it might not be di&s;erned. For he points us to no place, where either Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on &s;o argueth, or Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;o an&s;wereth. Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons &s;econd rea&s;on runnes mainly upon this, that <HI>our ministery is the mini&s;tery of Antichrists apo&s;ta&s;y.</HI> But in all Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws di&s;cour&s;e in way of an&s;were thereunto, there is not a title of <HI>our ministers wanting of &s;ome acce&s;&s;o y parts of their offices:</HI> much le&s;&s;e any &s;uch an&s;were as is here related to any &s;uch axiome or po&s;ition of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons, as it is here &s;aid to be retur|ned unto. Or, if he had an eye to Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons fir&s;t argument, for the proofe of the A&s;&s;umption of his fir&s;t rea&s;on, (for his arguments too oft interfere) <HI>the A&s;&s;umpt<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">on whereof,</HI> he &s;aith, <HI>is averred by this; that the offices, calling, entrance choi&s;e, mini&s;trat on and maintainance of our mini&s;ters wer<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> never ordained by Chri&s;t; but are derived from Antichri&s;t and his apo&s;ta&s;y:</HI> Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw as the booke it &s;elfe &s;heweth you, and did then &s;hew him, not in <HI>an&s;were</HI> to the A&s;&s;umption, much le&s;&s;e in <HI>an&s;were</HI> to this related for the proofe of it, which he an&s;wereth to other wi&s;e at large, but in an&s;were to the propo&s;ition (which is th s: <HI>The pa&s;tors and teachers &s;poken of Eph.</HI> 4.11. <HI>have t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">eire offices, cal|lings admini&s;tration, and maintainance ordained by Christ in his Te|&s;tament&punc;</HI> a<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">d of which he di&s;tinguisheth) &s;aith, <HI>it is not true, un|les by offices, callings and admini&s;tration he understand the &s;ub&s;tantiall or e&s;&s;e tiall parts thereof otherwi&s;e it is fal&s;e: for that tho&s;e very pa|&s;to<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s and teachers, there &s;poken of, may</HI> (not <HI>want,</HI> as Mai&s;ter Can he <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> late<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">h him, <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">u<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">) <HI>have divers acce&s;&s;ory parts of their offices, callings, and admini&s;tration, not ordained by Chri&s;t in the new Te&s;ta|ment.</HI>
<PB N="101" REF="56"> Thus you &s;ee how &s;hamele&s;ly he twi&s;e in one breath, belyeth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw affirming him 1. to &s;ay; <HI>They may want;</HI> when he &s;aith, <HI>they may have,</HI> And 2. to return this as an <HI>an&s;were</HI> to that a&s;&s;ertion of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on: both which the booke it &s;elfe before him gave him directly the lie in. It is <HI>chil|dish</HI> indeed, to lay this as an imputat<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">on upon Ma<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ter Brad&s;haw that he doth not relate in particular, <HI>what acce&s;sory parts, &s;uch may have;</HI> when it is his own part, if he will reply, to take away his di&s;tinction, by prooving that no &s;uch can be had. But it is not <HI>ch<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ldish</HI> but <HI>knavish,</HI> thus wickedly and maliciou&s;ly, out of his own mi&s;cheivous brain-pan, to forge and frame &s;uch ab&s;urd and &s;en&s;le&s;&s;e an&s;wers, and then to father them upon others. In &s;teed <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">herefore of that he ad|deth; that <HI>th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s is a<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> if a conv<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">cted traitor, would proove his cau&s;e to be otherwi&s;e, for that he wants &s;ome acce&s;&s;ory parts of a true &s;ubje<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">,</HI> (a doughty plea indeed, &amp; well worthy &s;uch a patrone, as here enters it,) I may much better &s;ubjoine, that a convicted Liar, (&s;uch as Mai&s;ter Can both here and el&s;where &s;heweth him&s;elfe to be) wants not &s;ome acce&s;&s;arie parts, but &s;ome e&s;&s;entiall, of an hone&s;t man.</P>
<P N="6">6. At la&s;t, remembring him&s;elfe, and returning out of his late raving fitts, to his right witts again; he begins at length to take notice of what he was in|deed to replie to; but having no great minde to be doeing with it, he is willing to part with it againe as &s;oone as he cometh at it.</P>
<P><HI>Touching the di&s;tinction,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>betweene reading the Canons to the people, and not teaching the Errors contained in them I shall leave it as another demand how they can proove that t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e&s;e fal&s;ehoods and lies may be read, in the manner that they are, and yet be neither taught nor ju&s;tified.</HI></P>
<P>You &s;ee how &s;oone the man hath done di&s;patched all in a trice: and h<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">w &s;oundly he replyeth, and in replying refuteth (for &s;o he &s;hould doe) what his an&s;werer hath averred; by demanding of him how he can proove that, that he &s;aith. Though indeed he cutteth the An&s;werers words of by the halves, and leaveth out that clau&s;e, that giveth a full an&s;were to his demand, (his broad lan|guage &s;ett a&s;ide,) to witt, <HI>as declaring what is by their governers required, not as teaching or ju&s;tifying any errors therein contained.</HI></P>
<P><HI>Fr Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Beza &s;aith, though Antichri&s;t teach the trueth, (which &s;ometimes he doeth) to the end he may m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">re ea&s;ily &s;educe to beleeve his lies, yet we are to &s;top our eares again&s;t him; le&s;t under this pretence we be deceived by him.</P>
<PB N="102" REF="57">
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw.</HI></P>
<P>Well, but it is yet to proove, that our min<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ters are Antichri&s;ts, and that they teach the trueth to any &s;uch wicked intent: the contrarie is manife&s;t; when many of them in regard of the times are content to yeeld to &s;ome colourable untrueths, that they may thereby purcha e liberty unto them<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">elves, to advance the trueth of Chri&s;t. They yeeld to &s;ome th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ngs in appearance Antichri&s;t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">an, that they might with more l<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">bert<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e fight a a<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">n&s;t Antichri&s;t.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Who knoweth not that Antichri&s;t and his mini&s;ters are hypocriticall friends to Chri&s;t, under the name of C<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ri&s;t fighting again&s;t h<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">m?</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>But who knoweth not that our min<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ters, if they be &s;uch as our Laws require them to be, are <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">worne Enemys to Antichri&s;t: and in the name of Chri&s;t, and under &s;ome of Antichri&s;ts own rites, doe fight again&s;t him, and re&s;i&s;t him unto blood? and who knoweth not, that many of them have died for Chri&s;t at the foote of Antichri&s;t.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="6" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The &s;ixth R<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">a&s;on.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>If the pre&s;ent mini&s;terie of the Church of En land be a &s;trange mini&s;tery then is it not Lawfull in the wor<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">ip o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> God, to heare it, or have any <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">pirituall communion therewith.</P>
<P>But &s;uch is the mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England.</P>
<P>Therefore it is not Lawfull in the wor<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="3 letters">p o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> God to heare it, or have any &s;pirituall communion there with.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption is manife&s;t; for a &s;trange mini&s;tery is that which is not by the Law ordained and given for that worke <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s them<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ves heretofore have pub|li&s;hed; and as is prooved in the fir&s;t Rea<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">on.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>This rea&s;on differeth not in &s;ub&s;tance from divers of the former: for what is it to be a &s;trange mini&s;terie, but to be a mini&s;terie that is not let by Chri&s;t in his
<PB N="103" REF="57"> Church? which is his fir&s;t rea&s;on: but to be a mini&s;tery, which deriveth not the power and function from Chri&s;t? which is his 4. rea&s;on: but to be a mini&s;tery that worketh upon mens con&s;ciences by vertue of a fal&s;e &s;pirituall calling? which is his 5. Rea&s;on. Might he not with a great facility, out of this methode of rea&s;oning have brought forth 7000. rea&s;ons, as the&s;e 7? But how doth he proove the A&s;&s;umption of his rea&s;on? by &s;ending us back again, as you may &s;ee to the 1. rea&s;on. So that all the rea&s;on of this rea&s;on is borrowed from the fir&s;t rea&s;on; and is an&s;wered allready in the an&s;were thereof.</P>
<P>But before he pa&s;&s;eth to the next rea&s;on, he runs out after the wonted fa&s;hio~, into an idle di&s;cour&s;e, nothing at all appertaining to the argument in hand; brin|ging in &s;ome idle ob&s;ervations upon the &s;tory of Corah, Dathan and Abiram, &amp; all&s;o of Naaman, fal&s;ely mi&s;applyed unto our Church-a&s;&s;emblys and mini&s;tery. For he taking it as granted, or as a thing that could not be denyed him; that <HI>our mini&s;tery is Antichri&s;tian,</HI> and that <HI>our worship is idolatry,</HI> he makes our mi|ni&s;ters and people, oven the be&s;t of them, wors than Corah, Dathan and Abi|ram, and them which were of theire con&s;piracy, &amp; our a&s;&s;emblys and wor&s;hip as bad as the temple of Rimmon, &amp; the idolatrie therein performed. And where he brings the example of Naaman, as brought by &s;ome of us to ju&s;tify our joi|ning with our Church-a&s;&s;emblys; I per&s;wade my &s;elf he doeth again&s;t the know|ledge and light of his own con&s;cience belye us: &amp; that there cannot be one of us brought forth, that ever made this plea. We holde it as unlawfull (as them&s;elves) outwardly &amp; but in appearance to joine with idolaters, in their idolatry; &amp; yet wee &s;ee not warrant why every particular act, that in a large &s;en&s;e is idolatrous, adjoyned to Gods true wor&s;hip, we &s;hould forbeare our pre&s;ence, as the true wor&s;hip it &s;elfe: Or that our pre&s;ence for the true wor&s;hips &s;ake alone, &s;hould in re&s;pect of &s;ome point of fal&s;e wor&s;hip thereunto annexed be, (as he &s;peaketh) <HI>the &s;ubmitting our bodies to a &s;trange worship:</HI> E&s;pecially when we are not par|ticular Actors in it, but onely pre&s;ent, beholding it with griefe, and &s;uffering it in others for the true wor&s;hips &s;ake, unto which it is adjoynd. If this &s;hould be held unlawfull; then can no man pre&s;ent him&s;elfe with a good con&s;cience, at any publick wor&s;hip of God where&s;oever; becau&s;e (except it &s;hould be &s;tinted and pre&s;cribed, which Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on holds to be a fal&s;e wor&s;hip,) he can have no a&s;&s;urance, but that &s;ome errors in matter or forme will be committed: yea if he bee a man of under&s;tanding and learning, he may pre&s;ume in a man|ner, that in the publick wor&s;hip &s;ome error or other, in matter or forme, grea|ter or le&s;&s;er will be committed, before which he mu&s;t pre&s;ent him&s;elfe. But what? were the Iewi&s;h Synagogues in Chri&s;ts time free from all parts
<PB N="104" REF="58"> of fal&s;e wor&s;hip? the Scripture witne&s;&s;eth the contrarie. Did they, when Chri&s;t came into their a&s;&s;emblys, forbeare them? the Scripture confirmes the contra|ry. Was Chri&s;ts pre&s;ence then, (as here he &s;aith our pre&s;ence is) <HI>a very bowing down unto them?</HI> was he al&s;o therein <HI>an uncon&s;cinable di&s;&s;embler?</HI> did he therein <HI>imbrace the bo&s;ome of &s;trangers, breake his covenant, goe a whooring with the in|ventions of man?</HI> for &s;uch fire as this he &s;pitts at us if not, why &s;hould it be &s;uch a &s;in in us, who have not &s;uch eyes to peirce into the impietie of mans tra|ditions, as our Saviour had?</P>
<P N="1">1. To this Mai&s;ter Can replieth, that <HI>if it be unlawfull, as Maister Brad|shaw &s;aith, outwardlie, and but in appearance, to joyne with idolaters in theire ido|latry, then Mai&s;ter Bradshaw sheweth him&s;elfe an unrea&s;onable man, in per|&s;uading them to return to return to our &s;ervice; for that it were by our own grounds to joine with idolaters in their idolatry.</HI></P>
<P>A peremptorie reply, you &s;ee, but without proofe; unles you will take I know not what grounds, of I know not whome, (for none are named, nor &s;o much as once pointed to) for currant paiment in a point of &s;uch importance.</P>
<P N="2">2. He demandeth <HI>what Scriptures witnes, that there was fal&s;e worship in the Iewish Synagogues, and of what kinde it was;</HI> And requireth of this proofe, that <HI>Chri&s;t was pre&s;ent where and when the &s;ame was pra<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">i&s;ed.</HI></P>
<P>Which &s;o farforth as it is by Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw affirmed, is no hard matter to proove: for taking <HI>fal&s;e worship in a large &s;en&s;e,</HI> as he there &s;aith it may be, (in way of an&s;were to mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons indi&s;tinct and indefinite &s;peech of it,) <HI>for any error either in matter or manner of performance,</HI> it is apparent by our Sa|viours own refuting of them, that the Scribes and Phari&s;ees, the chiefe &amp; com|mon teachers of tho&s;e times, were very faulty in either. And it is as apparent, that our Saviour notwith&s;tanding the &s;ame, did u&s;ually frequent theire a&s;&s;em|blys: nor is it likely, that for his pre&s;ence they forbore their u&s;uall manner either of preaching or practi&s;e.</P>
<P>And this is all that he affoordeth us in defence of mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons &s;ixt Rea|&s;on. For of the next, as indeed it well de&s;erved, he hath not a word.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="7" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The &s;eventh Rea&s;on.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>If the pre&s;ent mini&s;terie of the Church of England be not from heaven, but of men, then it is not Lawfull in the wor&s;hip of God, to heare, or have any &s;pi|rituall communion therewith.</P>
<PB N="105" REF="58">
<P>Such is the mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England.</P>
<P>Ergo, It is not Lawfull in the wor&s;hip of God, to have any &s;pirituall com|munion there with.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption is evident: becau&s;e God hath not appointed the mini&s;terie of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys, but man; as appeares by theire booke of ordination: and if they will &s;ay the contrarie, let them &s;hew their calling out of the word of God.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>This Rea&s;on is the very &s;ame with the 4. 5. and 6. and hath no ground or proofe, but from them: and therefore is an&s;wered al&s;o in the an&s;were of them. And this may be &s;ufficient to &s;hew that our mini&s;tery is from heaven, when &s;o malitious and exerci&s;ed an adver&s;ary, who&s;e whole religion &s;eemes to lie in op|po&s;ing to our mini&s;tery, can &s;ay no more again&s;t it.</P>
</DIV3>
</DIV2>
<DIV2 TYPE="part">
<HEAD>The &s;econd &s;ort of Rea&s;ons taken, as is pretended, forth of our own writers.</HEAD>
<DIV3 N="1" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The fir&s;t rea&s;on taken from the 12. Arguments.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>All will wor&s;hip is &s;inne.</P>
<P>To heare or communicate with the pre&s;ent mini&s;terie of the Church-a&s;&s;em|blys of England in Church &s;ervice, in manner and forme pre&s;cribed, is a will wor&s;hip.</P>
<P>There fore to heare or communicate with that mini&s;trie is &s;inne.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>This Syllogi&s;me is Sophi&s;ticall, con&s;i&s;ting plainlie of foure terms, Except, he make his conclu&s;ion this; <HI>therefore to heare or communicate with that ministerie in manner and forme pre&s;cribed, is a &s;in.</HI> For the third argument being <HI>will worship;</HI> all the other termes they being no parts there of, mu&s;t be in the con|clu&s;ion, if &s;o be the Syllogi&s;me be true, as every Sophoming boy in the univer|&s;itie knoweth: and therefore he mu&s;t either exclude them out of the A&s;&s;ump|tion, or include them in the conclu&s;ion, which he cannot doe; it being his in|tent by the&s;e arguments to proove <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">t a &s;in, to communicate therewith, not onely <HI>in manner and forme pre&s;cribed,</HI> but any other way. And therefore he Sophi&s;ti|cally, or rather in ignorant and witles &s;implicity, concludes a generall from a &s;pe|ciall, thus.</P>
<PB N="106" REF="59">
<P><HI>It is will-worship to communicate with our ministery in manner and forme pre|&s;cribed,</HI></P>
<P><HI>Therefore it is a &s;in to communicate therewith, whether in manner and forme pre&s;cribed, or any other way.</HI></P>
<P>Whereas a childe may know this; that an action done in &s;ome manner and forme pre&s;cribed may be a will-wor&s;hip and a &s;in, which done otherwi&s;e may be true wor&s;hip. A man may therefore (if need be) grant both his premi&s;&s;es &amp; denie his conclu&s;ion. Neither will it help him; that the Author of the twelve Arguments concluded again&s;t the Ceremonys, in the &s;ame forme of words, that he doth here again&s;t the mini&s;terie: it being plaine by the &s;cope of his whole di&s;putation, that though he doe not expre&s;&s;e the&s;e words <HI>in manner and forme pre&s;cribed</HI> in the conclu&s;ion; that yet he under&s;tandeth them: it being not his purpo&s;e to di&s;pute ab&s;olutely again&s;t all u&s;e of them, but again&s;t the u&s;e of them in that manner and forme that they are pre&s;cribed.</P>
<P>But what&s;oever his conclu&s;ion is, the a&s;&s;umption is fal&s;e, yea though it &s;hould be granted, that in our mini&s;terie there is &s;ome <HI>will-worship</HI> performed. Yet let us &s;ee how he prooves the a&s;&s;umption.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>All parts of divine wor&s;hip and &s;ervice impo&s;ed onely by the will and plea|&s;ure of man upon the communicants in divine &s;ervice, &amp; that of nece&s;&s;ity to be done, is will-wor&s;hip.</P>
<P>But to heare and communicate with the pre&s;ent mini&s;terie of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England, in Church &s;ervice, in manner and forme pre&s;cribed, are &s;uch parts of divine wor&s;hip as is afore&s;aid. Ergo,</P>
<P>To heare and communicate with the pre&s;ent mini&s;terie of the Church-a&s;|&s;emblys of England, in manner and forme pre&s;cribed, is a will-wor&s;hip.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>The propo&s;ition is taken forth of the twelve arguments, and there fore needs no an&s;were. The A&s;&s;umption is fal&s;e; but he prooveth it thus.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. Man impo&s;eth this mini&s;tery upon man, and God in his word hath not appointed the&s;e offices and callings: neither required any to communicate with them in Church &s;ervice in manner and forme pre&s;cribed.</P>
<P N="2"><PB N="107" REF="59">2. The people &s;tand bound to heare and communicate with them upon pain of &s;u&s;pen&s;ion, deprivation, &amp;c. and God mu&s;t have no &s;olemne wor&s;hip in England, except it be with communion to the &s;ame. Ergo,</P>
<P>To heare and communicate with the pre&s;ent mini&s;tery, &amp;c. is a part of di|vine wor&s;hip impo&s;ed as afore&s;aid.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>The fir&s;t part of the antecedent is fal&s;e, &amp; is not prooved by any ground ta|ken from the twelve arguments. For not man onely, but God all&s;o, hath impo|&s;ed this mini&s;tery: and hath appointed, for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof, the offices and callings of the mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys: &amp; hath required us to com|municate with them in Chnrch-&s;ervice, in that forme &amp; manner, which the Law in the true meaning thereof, pre&s;cribes; and which many at the lea&s;t doe pra|cti&s;e.</P>
<P>Neither doth the con&s;equent follow upon the &s;econd part of the antecedent; for though humane Lawe under never &s;o greate puni&s;hments, &s;hould binde us to never &s;o great corruptions in Gods &s;ervice; yet &s;o long as we doe not actual|ly communicate in tho&s;e corruptions, but onely in the true parts of Gods wor|&s;hip, our communicating is never the wor&s;e for the &s;aid Laws of men, but ra|ther the better. Neither doe we herein &s;tand more bound, then Mai&s;ter Iohn|&s;on and his people doe, when they are in theire Dominions. So that it makes as much again&s;t communicating with their mini&s;tery, as ours. Though there|fore (as the author of the 12. arguments hath indeavoured to proove,) the ce|remonys in controver&s;ie &s;hould be held to be a will-wor&s;hip; and therefore a &s;in to u&s;e them in Gods wor&s;hip; yet it followeth not by the &s;ame argument, that it is a &s;in to communicate with the mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, no though it &s;hould u&s;e the &s;aid ceremonys; much le&s;&s;e where and when it u&s;eth them not, as in &s;ome places, or at &s;ome times, it doth not, neither is it by Law required &s;o to doe.</P>
<P>Here M^r. Can forbearing to vindicate his brother Iohn&s;ons Logick, which this his whole di&s;cour&s;e throughout &s;heweth him never to have had much ac|quaintance with, or to ju&s;tify either of the axiomes denied, in which the proofe of his a&s;&s;umption wholly con&s;i&s;ts, doth after his olde wont.</P>
<P N="1">1. Renew his former cavill concerning the <HI>Law</HI> mentioned by Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, <HI>what Law he meanes;</HI> and <HI>what the true intent and meaning of that Law is;</HI> as if who were <HI>true mini&s;ters,</HI> could not be known without it; (which is a &s;illy and &s;en&s;eles inference) For an&s;were whereunto we &s;hall require him
<PB N="108" REF="60"> to the place where the que&s;tion was fir&s;t mooved, or the cavill rather fir&s;t made: withall adding, that, <HI>if Mai&s;ter Bradshaw had a good cau&s;e in hand, he would have referred his readers to the Prophets, Chri&s;t and his Apostles, &amp; not u&s;ed &s;uch carnall and idle talke.</HI> Belike he would have Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw doe as his bro|ther Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on alledge Scripture for matter of fact, to &s;hew what our mini&s;ters doe, or are, or what the government they live under requires of them, or intendeth they &s;hould be and doe, and &s;o both abu&s;e Scriptures, and make him&s;elfe ridiculous, as his brother Iohn&s;on therein hath done.</P>
<P N="2">2. He telleth us, <HI>he can not beleeve Mai&s;ter Bradshaw in that</HI> (which com|meth in on the by, <HI>ex abundante;</HI> for the an&s;were takes away Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons argument without it) <HI>that it is Lawfull to communicate in that worship where the ceremonys are u&s;ed;</HI> And hereupon breaketh out in his wonted manner, like the &s;heering of Swine, with much cry, and litle wooll; charging <HI>this incon&s;ide|rate man</HI> (as he plea&s;eth to &s;tile him) with <HI>rashnes and folly, that dur&s;t without any rea&s;on more than boldene&s;&s;e, ju&s;tify that that his brethren have by many &s;ound ar|guments, manifested to be evill and unlawfull:</HI> and accordingly &s;erveth us in a long Me&s;&s;e, not very &s;avourie, out of a nameles author, (no country-man of ours what ever he be; his language bewrayeth him,) who taking for granted, that <HI>kneeling u&s;ed in communicating of the Lords table is idolatrous:</HI> &amp; that <HI>tho&s;e that joine in communion with &s;uch as &s;o doe, though them|&s;elves &s;it, doe communicate with them, when they are committing the very act of idolatry,</HI> doth thence inferre the unlawfullne&s;&s;e thereof: and with this Authors di&s;cours, and his own de&s;cant there upon to rai&s;e the bulk of his booke, he filleth 3. whole pages.</P>
<P>But neither is it materiall what Mai&s;ter Can believeth in this ca&s;e, nor what his nameles author &s;aith, till he bring better proofe for what he &s;peaketh; &s;ince that we are neither tied to &s;ub&s;cribe, either to the beliefe of the one, or to the &s;entence of the other.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="2" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The &s;econd Rea&s;on taken from the twelve Arguments.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>It is a &s;in again&s;t God, for Chri&s;tians to partake with the mini&s;tery of &s;uch, as accounting them&s;elves to be &s;ervants of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t, yet doe in the execu|tion of their mini&s;terie give &s;peciall honour to Antichri&s;t and his officers.</P>
<PB N="109" REF="60">
<P>But the mini&s;tery of the Church of England is &s;uch. Ergo,</P>
<P>It is a &s;inne for Chri&s;tians to partake therewith.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>Fir&s;t I deny the propo&s;ition: the true and be&s;t mini&s;ters of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t, that ever were or &s;hall be, &s;ince the Apo&s;tles, may in theire ignorance or weakne&s;&s;e doe &s;ome act in theire mini&s;tery, that may bring &s;ome &s;peciall honour to Anti|chri&s;t, and yet Chri&s;tians may Lawfully, and without &s;inne, partake with &s;uch in their mini&s;tery. It being not nece&s;&s;ary, that who&s;oever partaketh with a mi|ni&s;terie, &s;hould partake al&s;o with the accidentall corruptions thereof.</P>
<P>He tels us, like a bolde and blinde baiard; that <HI>the propo&s;ition is manife&s;t and cleare to any, that have an eye of rea&s;on, and any light of divinitie shining in it;</HI> And yet it hath not &s;o much as any colour of trueth; but in the eyes of &s;uch owles and bats as him&s;elfe is. The propo&s;ition in the twelve arguments, unto which he would equall and paralell his, is this: <HI>It is a &s;in again&s;t God, for him that is by way of excellency a &s;ervant of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t, (without a preci&s;e and di|rect warrant from him, at any time, e&s;pecially in the &s;olemne worship of God) to give &s;peciall honour to Antichrist and his members:</HI> What? mu&s;t it needes fol|low from this; that <HI>it is a &s;in to partake any manner of way, with &s;uch a ones mi|ni&s;tery, as shall in any mea&s;ure commit &s;uch a &s;in?</HI> mu&s;t the joyning with them in any other parts of their mini&s;tery, needs be a communicating with them in this &s;in? he bidds us <HI>&s;ee for this</HI> 2. <HI>Cor.</HI> 6.14, 17. <HI>Rev.</HI> 18.4. But what is this to the 12. arguments, from whence he &s;aith this rea&s;on is taken? and to what end &s;hould we &s;ee tho&s;e places? except he had fir&s;t made us to &s;ee, that our mini|&s;ters in their mini&s;tery are infidels and Belials; that their mini&s;tery for the &s;ub|&s;tance thereof is <HI>unrighteou&s;nes</HI> and <HI>darkne&s;&s;e;</HI> that the God we &s;erve in our mini&s;tery is <HI>an idole;</HI> that our a&s;&s;emblys are <HI>Babylon:</HI> and all this becau&s;e &s;ome thing happily is done by our mini&s;ters, which (and yet contrary to their intent) is &s;ome honour to Antichri&s;t. For except all this be granted unto him, the&s;e texts are of no force to confirme the propo&s;ition.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption is as fal&s;e as the propo&s;ition. Neither doth it follow from the a&s;&s;umption of that argument of the 12. from which he would ground it. For though it &s;hould be granted; that <HI>to u&s;e the ceremonys in controver&s;y in manner and fcrme pre&s;cribed, were to give &s;peciall honour to Antichri&s;t, and his officers;</HI> yet it doth not follow, that <HI>the mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;em|blys are &s;uch, that in the execution of theire ministery give &s;peciall honour to
<PB N="110" REF="61"> Antichri&s;t, and his officers.</HI> For &s;ome of our mini&s;ters, from whome he &s;epara|teth, doe not in the execution of their mini&s;tery u&s;e the &s;aid Ceremonys at any time: neither doe any of our mini&s;ters at all times in the execution thereof, u&s;e them, neither are required &s;o to doe.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption notwith&s;tanding he proceedeth to proove thus.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Such a conformity to Antichri&s;t and his officers, as is not onely be&s;ides the word of God, but in a &s;peciall manner derogatory to all Reformed Churches, that have departed from the Synagogue of Rome, is a &s;peciall honour to Anti|chri&s;t and his officers.</P>
<P>But the execution of the mini&s;tery of the Church of England is &s;uch. Ergo,</P>
<P>The execution of that mini&s;tery in manner afore&s;aid, is to give &s;peciall ho|nour to Antichri&s;t and his officers.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>The propo&s;ition is word for word in a manner taken out of the 12. argu|ments, and therefore for this controver&s;y not to be &s;tood upon, whether it be true or fal&s;e.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption is fal&s;e, and hath no ground at all from the 12. arguments. For though it &s;hould be granted; that <HI>to u&s;e the Ceremonys in controver&s;y in divine worship, is &s;uch a conformity to Antichri&s;t and his members,</HI> as is &s;peci|fyed in the propo&s;ition: yet no man, except he have &s;ome crack in his braine, can from thence inferre, that <HI>the execution of our ministery, is &s;uch a conformity;</HI> e&s;pecially then when in the execution thereof they doe not u&s;e the &s;aid Cere|monys; whice none doe at all times, and &s;ome doe never.</P>
<P>He proceeds to proove the a&s;&s;umption not by any ground taken from the 12. <HI>Arguments,</HI> but by &s;ome of the fragments of his own former rea&s;onle&s;&s;e Rea&s;ons: and therefore the maine i&s;&s;ue of the argument, lying not upon any thing in the &s;aid arguments; this &s;econd rea&s;on of his can not be &s;aid to be taked from the 12. Arguments. And therefore they are no wi&s;e guilty of his &s;chi&s;me, nor doe any ways here in this place patronize the &s;ame.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="3" TYPE="reason">
<PB N="111" REF="61">
<HEAD>The third Rea&s;on taken out of the twelve Arguments, the London mini&s;ters Exceptions, and the Abridgment, &amp;c.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>If &s;uch be the State of the mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England, as they are bound in their mini&s;tration unto &s;uch things, as the u&s;ing of them in Church &s;ervice, in manner and forme pre&s;cribed, is a will-wor&s;hip; a giving of &s;peciall honour to Antichri&s;t and his members, a performing of honours more than civill, even religious, onely to a humane power; a warranting of the like u&s;e of Iewi&s;h, Turki&s;h, Pagani&s;h or Popi&s;h ob&s;ervations, a doeing of Schi&s;ma|ticall actions; an having of Spirituall communion with Papi&s;ts, in the my&s;terys of theire idolatry and &s;uper&s;tition; a mingling of prophane things with divine, an u&s;ing of unlawfull things in divine wor&s;hip; an admini&s;tring of Sacraments that are not of divine in&s;titution; a &s;olemne acknowledging of &s;peciall homage to the &s;pirituall u&s;urped authority of Lo<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">d-Bi&s;hops; an u&s;ing of humane Tra|ditions in Gods wor&s;hip, as nece&s;&s;ary to &s;alvation; an apparent meanes of dam|ning of many Soules; an ob&s;erving of a Liturgy, which in the whole matter &amp; forme thereof is too like unto the Ma&s;&s;e-booke, &amp;c. then it is not Lawfull to communicate with the mini&s;ters in their mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>But &s;uch is the e&s;tate of the mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of Eng|land.</P>
<P>Therefore it is not Lawfull to communicate with them therein.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on thinks &s;urely, that in this argument he hath out of our owne writings for ever di&s;graced our mini&s;tery, but whether here or in the argu|ments following he deale faithfully with our writers, I know not, his bad dea|ling in this kinde, we <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ave di&s;covered in part before, and doth mo&s;t evidently appeare in one particular following, wherein he mo&s;t &s;hamefully and loudly, as a man void of all common hone&s;ty and grace, maketh the mini&s;ters of Lyncolne to affirme, that <HI>the Prelat<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s are revealed to be great Antichri&s;ts, and theire mi|ni&s;tery and con&s;titution to be great troublers of the Church in this day, and that it can not but be very &s;infull and hurtfull to retain or communicate with them.</HI> The Devill him&s;elfe would have beene a&s;hamed in this open manner to have tolde
<PB N="112" REF="62"> &s;uch a lie: and therefore he is to be tru&s;ted no further then he is &s;eene, and here in his loudne&s;&s;e is the more to be &s;u&s;pected, that where he rehear&s;eth manie har&s;h, bitter and un&s;avoury &s;peeches again&s;t our mini&s;tery and wor&s;hip, as writ|ten by &s;ome of our &s;elves, that retaine communion with the mini&s;tery and wor|&s;hip of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys; he doth not quote the particular places, but one|ly referrs us to the Autors in generall, as though we had nothing el&s;e to doe, but to reade over whole bookes to finde out his allegations; or that we mu&s;t take them upon his word to be faithfully reported: but let us &s;uppo&s;e, that our men have &s;o written; yet there is no con&s;equence in the propo&s;ition. For what if our mini&s;ters were bound to &s;ay Ma&s;&s;e, to &s;ing Mattens, to wor&s;hip the Virgin Mary, to acknowledge the Popes Supremacy, &amp;c. yet it might be Lawfull to communicate with our mini&s;ters in theire mini&s;try; except that in the execution of their mini&s;tery they &s;ubmitted unto that which they were bound unto: it being one thing to be bound, and an other thing to fulfill the bond. He might contrarily with as much wit and under&s;tanding have rea&s;oned thus: <HI>If this be the e&s;tate of the ministerie of the Church a&s;&s;emblys of Rome, that they are bound in their admini&s;tration to the renouncing of Antichrist, and all his idolatry, offices &amp; will-worship, to conforme onely in their mini&s;tery to the Go&s;pell of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t, and to &s;uch ordinances, as are agreeable to the &s;ame; then it is Lawfull to commu|nicate with them in their ministery and worship.</HI> Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on would quick|ly di&s;cerne the incon&s;equence of this propo&s;ition. And why? becau&s;e in the ex|ecution of theire mini&s;tery, they fulfill not this bond: and yet he cannot deny, but that they are by a &s;tronger bond, even a divine bond, bound unto this, than our mini&s;ters to the contrary.</P>
<P>The con&s;equent he &s;aith is prooved by <HI>the ministers of Lincolne-shire, abrid|gement, pag.</HI> 17. but to pa&s;&s;e by his depraving of them before touched, no &s;uch matter can be concluded from the words which he here citeth; yea though <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e had dealt faithfully in the citation of them. For though it &s;hould be granted, that <HI>&s;ome act of &s;pirituall fornication should be done in our mini&s;te|ry;</HI> that <HI>we are to &s;eparate from idolaters &amp; Antichri&s;tians, and to be as unlike them as may be, in theire religious ob&s;ervations;</HI> though <HI>God doe beare a detestation to idolatry, &amp; all the inticements thereof, as unto &s;pirituall whoredome:</HI> though <HI>we ought to be ashamed of the mo|numents of idolatry, and ca&s;t them away with dete&s;tation;</HI> though <HI>we should be in &s;ome danger by them to be corrupted in religion, by confor|ming unto idolaters in theire mini&s;tery and worship;</HI> though <HI>keeping communion
<PB N="113" REF="62"> with &s;uch mini&s;ters should be a &s;peciall meanes to harden them in theire &s;ins;</HI> though <HI>the Prelates were revealed to be great Antichrists;</HI> though <HI>the godly learned have con&s;tantly taught, that Christians are bound to for&s;ake and ca&s;t of the mini&s;tration; ceremonys and religious cu&s;tomes of Paganes, Iews, Antichristian idolaters and hereticks, and carefully to shun all conformity with them therein;</HI> yet it doth not there upon follow, that <HI>if the mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys be bound as afore&s;aid, that then it is not Lawfull to communicate with them in theire mini&s;terie.</HI></P>
<P>Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on therefore mu&s;t be put to this pains, to proove his con&s;e|quent.</P>
<P>For further proofe of the former con&s;equent, he brings &s;ix rea&s;ons more out of his own olde and fu&s;ty horne of &s;tore, which proove the con&s;equent ju&s;t <HI>&agrave; baculo ad angulum:</HI> to which it &s;hall be needles to give an&s;were, they being proofes cleane be&s;ides the purpo&s;e of the&s;e rea&s;ons; which is to ju&s;tify theire &s;chi&s;me by grounds taken from our own writings.</P>
<P>The con&s;equent then of the propo&s;ition being evidently fal&s;e, the a&s;&s;umptio~, though it &s;hould have never &s;o much ground from our own writings, will &s;tand him in no &s;teede.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="4" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The fourth Rea&s;on taken out of the Admonitions to the Parlament.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>If the offices of Arch-Bi&s;hops, Arch-Deacons, Lord-Bi&s;hops, Suffraganes, Par&s;ons, Vicars, &amp;c. be Antichri&s;tian and contrary to the Scriptures, then the people of God may not communicate with them in their mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>But the fir&s;t is true.</P>
<P>Ergo the latter al&s;o.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>The con&s;equent is fal&s;e, and he goeth not about to proove it, by any thing taken out of our own writings, but by a &s;tale proofe that hath been an&s;wered before: and therefore it requires no an&s;were. Onely thus much of free boun|ty: That the offices of Arch-Bi&s;hops, &amp;c. quatenus tales, are not of the e&s;&s;ence
<PB N="114" REF="63"> of the mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, but meere accidents.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption therefore will &s;tand him in no &s;teede, whether it be true or fal&s;e; &amp; therefore I leave it to their maintainance, from whome he &s;aith he bor|roweth it.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="5" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The fifth Rea&s;on taken out of the offer of conference.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>If the propo&s;itions propounded to be maintained, in the Offer of conference be true, then is it not Lawfull to heare or have any &s;pirituall communion with the pre&s;ent mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England,</P>
<P>But tho&s;e propo&s;itions are true. Ergo,</P>
<P>It is not Lawfull to have any &s;pirituall communion with the &s;ame.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>The con&s;equence is fal&s;e, and doth not follow from the &s;aid propo&s;itions.</P>
<P N="1">1. Though it &s;hould be granted, that <HI>all matters meerely eccle&s;ia&s;ticall, Law|fully impo&s;ed upon any Church, are &s;uch, as may be concluded nece&s;&s;arily from the written word of God:</HI> yet in a true con&s;tituted Church, &s;ome matters meere|ly eccle&s;ia&s;ticall may be impo&s;ed through humane frailty, that cannot be &s;o concluded.</P>
<P N="2">2. Though <HI>all humane ordinances u&s;ed onely or &s;pecially in Gods worship, whereunto they are not nece&s;&s;ary of them&s;elves, were &s;imply unlawfull;</HI> yet is not every &s;uch humane ordinance of that nature, that it maketh the Church and mi|ni&s;tery where it is u&s;ed, to be a fal&s;e Church and mini&s;tery much le&s;&s;e tho&s;e Churches and mini&s;tery wherein it is not u&s;ed, but enjoyned onely.</P>
<P N="3">3. Though it were generally granted of all, that <HI>every true vi&s;ible Church of Christ is &s;uch a &s;pirituall body politick as is &s;pecially in&s;tituted by Chri&s;t, or his Apostles, in the new te&s;tament:</HI> yet it will not thence follow, that tho&s;e Chur|ches and mini&s;ters are not to be communicated withall, that have any thing in or appertaining to the con&s;titution thereof not in&s;tituted by Chri&s;t; or that &s;uch Churches are not true vi&s;ible Churches.</P>
<P N="4">4. Though <HI>every true vi&s;ible Church of Christ, or ordinary a&s;|&s;embly of the faithfull, hath by Chri&s;ts ordinance, power in it &s;elfe im|mediately under Christ, to elect and ordain, deprive and depo&s;e theire
<PB N="115" REF="63"> mini&s;ters, and to execute all other Eccle&s;iastica<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">l cen&s;ures:</HI> yet will it not follow from thence, that all they are fal&s;e Churches, &amp; not to be communicated with|all, that doe not, or by the Laws of man are not &s;uffered to u&s;e that power; nei|ther is it &s;ure the meaning of them who offer the conference, to maintain that they are no true vi&s;ible Churches of Chri&s;t, that cannot u&s;e that power, but are therein &s;ubject to others: for one may by Chri&s;ts ordinance have a power to doe that, which yet, in regard of man, he hath no power to doe.</P>
<P N="5">5. Though <HI>the Pa&s;tor of a particular congregation should be yeelded to be the highe&s;t ordinary Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall officer in any true con|&s;tituted vi&s;ible Church of Chri&s;t;</HI> yet can it not thence be concluded, that tho&s;e Pa&s;tors are fal&s;e Pa&s;tors, who are outwardly by mans Laws &s;ubjected to a &s;upe|rior eccle&s;ia&s;ticall officer. The father ordinarily is the highe&s;t officer in the fa|mily; yet if the Magi&s;trate &s;ubject the father in &s;ome matters appertaining to the family to an other, though therein, it may be, he may doe the father &s;ome wrong; yet doth not the father thereby become a fal&s;e father, or the family a fal&s;e family. Admit then that this prerogative is due to Pa&s;tors, to have no &s;pi|rituall officers &s;uperior unto them; yet is it not &s;o e&s;&s;entiall unto them, that without the actuall u&s;e and po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ion of it, he cannot be a true Pa&s;tor. And yet take a true vi&s;ible Church in that &s;en&s;e, which the officers of the conference doe, viz. for a particular ordinary a&s;&s;embly or congregation, and then in our own Churches, the Pa&s;tor is the highe&s;t; there being no eccle&s;ia&s;ticall officer in any &s;uch Churches above him.</P>
<P N="6">6. Grant this, that <HI>it is the office of every true Pa&s;tor, to teach and governe &s;piritually one congregation immediately under Chri&s;t:</HI> can it from hence be concluded, that they are no true Pa&s;tors, which governe more congregations then one; or which are &s;ubject, in &s;ome outward things, to &s;ome others be&s;ides Chri&s;t?</P>
<P N="7">7. Admit, that <HI>the offices of Provinciall and D<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">oce&s;&s;an Bishops were con|trary to the word of God:</HI> mu&s;t it needs there upon follow, that tho&s;e mini&s;ters and Churches, which are under them by the Laws of man, are fal&s;e? &s;uch e&s;pe|cially who obey them onely in things which they judge hone&s;t and Lawfull, &amp; who under this &s;ubjection doe no more, than they would doe, if they were not &s;ubject at all, unto Bi&s;hops?</P>
<P>A man mu&s;t therefore bring a better head and witt with him then Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons, that by <HI>the propo&s;itions of the offer of conference</HI> (how har&s;h &s;oever they may &s;eeme to be) can conclude it unlawfull to joine and communicate with our Church-a&s;&s;emblys.</P>
<PB N="116" REF="64">
<P>For the proofe of his con&s;equent, he brings nothing out of our own writ ings but onely to give his Reader thereby a vomit, &s;ome of his own Cole-wortes, not twi&s;e, but twi&s;e twenty times &s;odden, to which we give him leave to looke an an&s;were from &s;ome as idle-headed as him&s;elfe.</P>
<P>Mai&s;ter Can having lien &s;till a long time, as one fa&s;t a &s;leeps, nor regarding either his brothers Iohn&s;ons credite, very &s;hrewdly appeached, or his &s;ory Rea|&s;ons &s;o &s;hattered, that it would require a very skilfull Surgian indeed, either throughly to &s;alve the one, or make any limme almo&s;t of the other &s;tand up|right; yea di&s;pairing, it may &s;eeme, of any good cure likely to be done upon either; yet now beginneth againe to rou&s;e up him&s;elfe, and &s;et up his bri&s;tles, as if he meant to d<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e &s;omething. And</P>
<P N="1">1. To Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw an&s;weres to the &s;everall propo&s;itions he &s;ubjoy|neth &s;ome one or other, &s;uch as they are, frivolous and impertinent exceptions.</P>
<P>To the fir&s;t, <HI>That though it should be granted, that in a true con|&s;tituded Church, &s;ome matters meerely Eccle&s;iasticall may be impo&s;ed through humane frailty: yet this helpeth theire cau&s;e nothing at all, in regard that a fal&s;e worship an Antichristian hierarchy, an unlawfull mini&s;tery there from, is impo&s;ed upon, and hy the people &s;lavishly &s;ub|mitted unto.</HI></P>
<P>But 1, how is all this prooved; unles Mai&s;ter Cans word &s;hamefully ever and anone begging the main points in controver&s;y, goe for good?</P>
<P N="2">2. How doth this any way confirme Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons con&s;equence, which is this, or el&s;e none, from this fir&s;t propo&s;ition; <HI>All matters meerely Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Lawfully impo&s;ed upon any Church, are &s;uch as may be concluded from the written word of God. Ergo, it is not Law|full to have any &s;pirituall communion with the pre&s;ent ministery of the Church-a&s;semblys of England.</HI></P>
<P>For neither is Mai&s;ter Cans rablement any part of this Antecedent, nor doth the propo&s;ition, though granted, inferre; that where&s;oever ought &s;warving from that rule is impo&s;ed, there enfueth pre&s;ently a nullity of a true Church.</P>
<P>To the 2. That <HI>though every humane ordinance be not of that nature, as to make the Church and ministery fal&s;e, where it is u&s;ed: yet &s;ome are, and &s;uch are in their parish a&s;&s;emblys, as by theire owne principles</HI> (&s;aith he) <HI>we have shewed.</HI></P>
<P>But what is this again, (to pa&s;&s;e by his naked a&s;&s;ertion of our <HI>pa|rish-a&s;&s;em|blies,</HI>
<PB N="117" REF="64"> and his concealed <HI>principles</HI> of I know not whome, of as much weight with us, as his own word) what is this, I &s;ay, to proove M^r. I^s. co~&s;equence? <HI>All &s;uch humane ordinances are unlawfull. Ergo the Churches where any &s;uch are u&s;ed are no Churches, or the Churches where they are one|ly enjoyned, and not u&s;ed.</HI></P>
<P>To the 3. <HI>Though it were generally granted of all, that tho&s;e Churches and mini&s;terys are to be communicated with, that hav<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter"> &s;ome thing in or appertaining to the con&s;titution thereof, not in&s;tituted by Christ; yet it will not thence follow that we may with &s;uch, as in their con&s;titution were wholly fal&s;e, but &s;uch are theirs.</HI></P>
<P>You &s;ee &s;till Mai&s;ter Cans word mu&s;t goe for an Oracle: which if it may doe, all the controver&s;y will be &s;oone at an end.</P>
<P>To the 4. <HI>Grant this, that all are not fal&s;e Churches, which doe not, or by the Law of man are not &s;uffered to u&s;e their power.</HI></P>
<P>If you grant it, then your brother Iohn&s;ons con&s;equence is un&s;ound. Yea but &s;aith Mai&s;ter Can, <HI>your congregations doe altogether this power; &amp; &s;tand under that which was taken every part from the Devill &amp; Antichri&s;t, if &s;ome of yours &s;peake true them&s;elves.</HI></P>
<P>Yea, but good Mai&s;ter Can, if any &s;o &s;ay, what ever they be, be plea&s;ed to tell them, that we believe neither you nor them, nor are bound &s;o to doe; till better proofe be brought then either your brother Iohn&s;on or you here bring.</P>
<P>To the 5. <HI>admit, that tho&s;e may be true pa&s;tors, who are outwardly by mans Laws &s;ubjected to &s;uperiour eccle&s;ia&s;ticall officers.</HI> Though <HI>for this,</HI> in the mar|gine he &s;aith, <HI>he shall expect to &s;ee &s;ome proofe;</HI> whereas he ought rather, if the a&s;&s;ertion be un&s;ound, to have di&s;prooved it. And yet is it not true of al pa&s;tors of any Separati&s;ts living in this land? as I pre&s;ume there be, are, or have been &s;uch.</P>
<P>But if it be admitted, Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons con&s;equence is rejected as incon&s;e|quent; who from this would inferre, that <HI>our Churches are no true Churches,</HI> be|cau&s;e <HI>the pa&s;tor ought to be the highest officer in the Church:</HI> the vanity of which inference Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw by &s;trong rea&s;ons, (though this &s;hameles bea&s;t &s;ay, <HI>he never u&s;eth any one rea&s;on to confirme any one thing that he &s;aith</HI>) hath evident|ly di&s;covered; but he deigneth not to take notice of it. Yea, but <HI>yet,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>it can not hence be concluded, that theire mini&s;ters are true; &s;eeing neither theire offi|ces, callings, administrations,</HI> &amp;c. <HI>are agreeable to the word of God. Yet it can not hence,</HI> &amp;c. Whence meaneth the man, think we? <HI>becau&s;e a true pa&s;tor may
<PB N="118" REF="65"> yet by mans Laws be outwardly &s;ubjected to &s;ome &s;uperior eccle&s;ia&s;ticall officer?</HI> who goeth about, or is &s;o void of &s;en&s;e as to conclude in this manner: <HI>A true Pa&s;tor is the principall officer in his parish,</HI> (for that is the propo&s;ition that Mai|&s;ter Iohn&s;on here propoundeth.) <HI>Ergo, The mini&s;ters of the Parish-Churches in England are true mini&s;ters?</HI> Or on this wi&s;e. <HI>True Pa&s;tors may yet outwardly be &s;ubjected by mans Laws to a &s;uperiour Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall power. Ergo, The mini|&s;ters of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys in England are true ministers?</HI> But the&s;e are frames of Mai&s;ter Cans own contriving; who wanting better worke, it &s;ee|meth, or having nothing to doe, rather then he will be idle, &amp; yet he were bet|ter be idle and doe nothing, then be &s;o idely employd, bu&s;ieth him&s;elfe about knitting of knotts, (but very loo&s;e ones, you &s;ee) that he may &s;hew his skill at fa&s;t and loo&s;e in unknitting of them againe.</P>
<P>To the 7. (for the &s;ixt happily e&s;caped his hand) that <HI>if the offices of provin|ciall and dioce&s;an Bishops be contrary to the Scripture, then nece&s;&s;arily that mini|&s;tery, which is derived from it,</HI> (what <HI>it?</HI> from <HI>the Scripture,</HI> think we? for there is nothing el&s;e to referre this <HI>it</HI> to. But belike he forgat him&s;elfe, as he oft doth, and would &s;ay, <HI>them:) must needs be &s;o al&s;o, and that the Papists from the wri|tings of the conformi&s;t have drawn this conclu&s;ion.</HI> And I hope then it mu&s;t needs be Authentick.</P>
<P>But this is one of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons Colewortes Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;pe<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ks of, oft &s;erved in before, and hath been &s;ufficiently pi&s;cu&s;&s;ed in his proper place, in an&s;were to the &s;econd Rea&s;on of the fir&s;t &s;ort.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="6" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The &s;ixt Rea&s;on taken out of divers treati&s;es.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>If the&s;e A&s;&s;ertions be true, that that <HI>Church calling for which the Scripture gives no expres warrant, is meerely u&s;urped, and utterly unlawfull;</HI> that <HI>as it is not Lawfull to bring in any &s;trange doctrine, &s;o it is not Lawfull to teach the true doctrine under the name of any other function then is instituted by God,</HI> &amp;c.</P>
<P>But the afore&s;aid A&s;&s;ertions are true. Therefore</P>
<P>It is unlawfull to have communion with that mini&s;tery.</P>
<PB N="119" REF="65">
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw.</HI></P>
<P>This argument, being a collection out of our writers, doth not differ from the former, as him&s;elfe granteth: and therefore needes no further an&s;were.</P>
<P>The con&s;equent is fal&s;e, and he prooves it not by any of our own writers, as he ought to doe: but &s;till brings us proofes of his owne mu&s;ty aum|bry.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption therefore, borowed out of our own writers, will doe him no plea&s;ure.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="7" TYPE="reason">
<HEAD>The &s;eventh Rea&s;on taken out of the tenth of the 12. Arguments.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>It is a &s;in again&s;t Chri&s;t, the &s;ole head of the Church, to have &s;pirituall com|munion with tho&s;e mini&s;ters, which in theire mini&s;tration of divine things doe either by word or deed &s;olemnly profe&s;&s;e and yeeld a &s;pirituall homage to an u&s;urped &s;pirituall autority in the Church.</P>
<P>But &s;o doe the mini&s;ters of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England.</P>
<P>Ergo, It is a &s;inne to have communion with the &s;ame.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>The propo&s;ition is fal&s;e, and hath no ground from that propo&s;ition in the 12. Arguments, unto which he would match, and forth of which he would draw it. The propo&s;ition there is this:</P>
<P><HI>It is a &s;in against Chri&s;t the &s;ole head of the Church, for any one of his mini&s;ters, e&s;pecially in the admini&s;tration of divine things, either by words or &s;ignes &s;olemnly to profe&s;se and acknowledge, a &s;pirituall homage, to an u&s;urped &s;pirituall autority in the Church.</HI> Can he conclude his propo&s;ition from this? doth it hence follow, that becau&s;e our mi|ni&s;ters in their mini&s;tery, if they conforme, doe in &s;ome mea&s;ure, in infirmity or ignorance, commit &s;ome &s;uch &s;in; that therefore it is a &s;in to communicate with them in other divine things, wherein they doe not commit the &s;ame &s;in?</P>
<P>Hee tells us, that <HI>the propo&s;ition may not be gain&s;ayd,</HI> and why doth he tell us &s;o? becau&s;e the Author of the twelve Arguments &s;aith; <HI>his propo&s;ition may not be denied.</HI> As though there were ju&s;t the &s;ame Rea&s;on for the one as
<PB N="120" REF="66"> there is for the other. But why may not the propo&s;ition? <HI>Becau&s;e all &s;pirituall power u&s;urped over the Churches of God, is an Antichristian authori|ty; and to communicate with tho&s;e mini&s;ters, which profe&s;&s;e &s;pirituall homage to Antichri&s;t; which mu&s;t needes be a &s;in again&s;t Chri&s;t, the head of the Church.</HI> A deepe and learned rea&s;on! It can be no &s;in again&s;t Chri&s;t to communicate with them, which in &s;ome action profe&s;&s;e &s;pirituall homage to Antichri&s;t; except in their communion they al&s;o profe&s;&s;e the &s;ame homage, which like an ignorant di&s;putant, he maketh no mention of. As though to joine with one that doth evill, in that which is good, is allways to joine with him in the evill; as though to joine with a glutton in eating nece&s;&s;ary food, were to joine with him in his gluttony, or to joyn with a bla&s;phemer in the act of his bla&s;pheming in re&s;cuing an innocent out o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> the hands of robbers, were to com|municate with him in his bla&s;phemy. But herein he propounds onely to play the Ape, imitating the Author of the 12. arguments, who &s;aith, <HI>his propo&s;i|tion may not be gain&s;aid; becau&s;e all &s;pirituall power u&s;urped over the Churches of God, is an Antichri&s;tian autority; and to profe&s;&s;e &s;pirituall homage there unto, is to profe&s;&s;e &s;pirituall homage unto Antichri&s;t, which must needes be a &s;in.</HI> But what? is there no more rea&s;on in that rea&s;on, then in his? if this be a good argument to proove that propo&s;ition for which it is brought; mu&s;t his argument needes be as good to proove his propo&s;ition? what, becau&s;e it is a &s;in <HI>to profe&s;&s;e &s;peciall homage unto Antichri&s;t,</HI> mu&s;t it needes be a &s;in al&s;o <HI>to communicate with them, who doe profe&s;&s;e &s;ome homage unto Antichri&s;t?</HI> what? to communicate with them in other matters?</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption is fal&s;e as the propo&s;ition; and hath no ground from the 12. <HI>Arguments.</HI> For though it were granted; that <HI>to u&s;e the controverted Ceremonys in manner and forme pre&s;cribed, were even in the &s;olemne worship of Chri&s;t by &s;o|lemne &s;ignes to acknowledge a Spirituall homage to a &s;p rituall u&s;urped Autority of Arch-Bishops and Bishops;</HI> yet doth it not there from follow, that our mi|ni&s;ters in the admini&s;tration of divine things, doe the &s;ame. For none of our mini&s;ters doe <HI>always</HI> in the admini&s;tration of divine things profe&s;&s;e any &s;uch h mage; and &s;ome doe never profe&s;&s;e it; and tho&s;e who profe&s;&s;e it, when they doe profe&s;&s;e it, propound and intend no &s;uch matter.</P>
<P>He prooves the A&s;&s;umption thus.</P>
<P><HI>They preach the word, and administer the Sacraments by ver|tue of theire calling received from the Arch-Bishops &amp; Bishops,</HI> &amp;c.</P>
<P>The vanity whereof hath beene &s;ufficiently &s;hewed allready; hee therein
<PB N="121" REF="66"> begging one of the &s;tale rea&s;ons, and not borowing any thing from the 12. ar|guments.</P>
<P>That which followeth, whereby he would proove, that <HI>the authority of L. Arch-Bishops and Bishops is u&s;urped;</HI> which he makes the &s;econd part of his a&s;&s;umption; is alltogether idle, and to no purpo&s;e, and done onely of malice to the Author of the 12. Arguments. For otherwi&s;e had he herein intended the convincing of the &s;aid Author, and of them which are of his minde, (which is the onely u&s;e of his latter &s;ort of Rea&s;ons, and which can &s;erve for no other u&s;e, it had been &s;ufficient to have produced his a&s;&s;ertion without his proofes. For) that had been enough to declare the Authors conceit.</P>
<P>He concludes, crowing as if he were &s;ome Cock of the game, that had pic|ked out the eyes, and broken the neck, of all that have been &s;et again&s;t him. <HI>And thus,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>the cau&s;e is yeelded by them&s;elves.</HI> And is it not (think we) finely yeelded? is it not a field &s;toutly wonne? is it any marveile, that hee makes &s;uch outcries again&s;t the whole Chri&s;tian world, that will not follow &s;uch a leader?</P>
<P>But I leave him to his vain conceits of his own cau&s;e; tru&s;ting that any &s;ober and judicious Chri&s;tian will be able to di&s;cerne therein his fond and ignorant vanity. And whereas in the An&s;were of his Rea&s;ons, I have omitted to an&s;were to many particular pa&s;&s;ages; All things con&s;idered, I &s;hall not need to a&s;ke him pardon: I &s;hould rather have cau&s;e to expect thanks, if I had to deale with a rea&s;onable and good natured adve<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ary.</P>
<P>Here Mai&s;ter Can weary of his worke, and willing to end his reply, but not weary of his wicked woont of lend and palpable lying, having repeated &s;ome of M^r. Brad&s;haws concluding words, and returning him them again; to di&s;|play and traduce M^r. Brad&s;haws manner of an&s;wering, canteth on this wi&s;e.</P>
<P><HI>The propo&s;ition, &s;aith he,</HI> (Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw he meaneth) <HI>is fal&s;e; the a&s;&s;um|ption is fal&s;e: But for proofe, a man may finde as &s;oone a needle in a botle of hay, as any for the things he boldely denies.</HI></P>
<P>But to this froath and fal&s;ehood, I an&s;were,</P>
<P N="1">1. Suppo&s;e all were true that Mai&s;ter Can here &s;aith; though it may be, he &s;carce knoweth what he &s;aith, when he requireth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw <HI>to proove the things that he denies.</HI> For is any man bound <HI>to proove the things that him|&s;elfe denies?</HI> or is there any, I lay not rea&s;on for it, but &s;en<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e in it, to require any man &s;o to doe? M^r. Brad&s;haw might as well require Mai&s;ter Can to proove our Churches to be true Churches, and our mini&s;ters true mini&s;ters; for tho&s;e be the things, to u&s;e his own words, that <HI>he boldly denies.</HI></P>
<PB N="122" REF="67">
<P>But we will &s;uppo&s;e his meaning to be, if he knew at lea&s;t what he meant; that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw hath brought <HI>no proofe,</HI> that is rendered no rea&s;on of <HI>his deniall.</HI> It was not needfull he &s;hould. It is &s;ufficient for the an&s;werer, as for the defendant, to deny, and require proofe of the adver&s;e party, the accu&s;er or plaintiffe, who<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e part it is to make what he &s;aith good. Let us make our ca&s;e Mai&s;ter Cans a while. Suppo&s;e one writing a Libell again&s;t Mai&s;ter Can &s;hould thus argue in it Syllogi&s;tically.</P>
<P><HI>No ba&s;tard ought to be a mini&s;ter of the Go&s;pell.</HI></P>
<P><HI>But Ma<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ster Can is a ba&s;tard&punc; was not begotten in Lawfull mari|age, but his mother had him by an other man then her <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">u&s;band.</HI></P>
<P><HI>Ergo, Maister Can ought not to be a mini&s;ter of the Go&s;pell.</HI></P>
<P>Or Enthymematically thus:</P>
<P><HI>Mai&s;ter Can had ba&s;tards by divers women, when he was &s;ometime in England, hath inticed women to folly, that have repaired to him for conference in private hath caried the&s;e things &s;o clo&s;ely that they could not hitherto be di&s;covered, hath related to &s;ome, what others have &s;po|<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter">en in great &s;ecrecy.</HI></P>
<P><HI>And is therefore a Negromancer, and workes by the Devill.</HI></P>
<P>Put ca&s;e now Mai&s;ter Can were to an&s;were hereunto; would he not &s;peake as he &s;aith Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;peakes, if he were at lea&s;t to an&s;were Logically, according to the rules, and in tearms of Art, (which yet &s;eldome he doth:) <HI>The propo&s;ition is fal&s;e; the a&s;&s;umption is fal&s;e, the antecedent is fal&s;e: the con&s;equence is fal&s;e; all is fal&s;e, every jot of it.</HI> Or could any man ju&s;tly blame Mai&s;ter Can for &s;o doeing? telling him, that <HI>he denyeth things boldly, but bringeth no proofe for the things he denied?</HI> or would Mai&s;ter Can him&s;elfe, thinke we, acknow|ledge any equity in it; for his adver&s;ary to require of him, to di&s;proove the things charged upon him, to proove all that is &s;aid by him to be fal&s;e? and yet ju&s;t &s;uch is Mai&s;ter Cans dealing with us. He &s;aith, <HI>the Church of England our mother, is no true Spou&s;e of Chri&s;t, but an harlot; our mini&s;ters are idolaters,</HI> that is, <HI>&s;pirituall adulterers: our people all ba&s;tards, begotten out of Lawfull wed|lo<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">k: our government Antichristian: our di&s;cipline devillish: our worship flat idolatry;</HI> with many other the like outcrys again&s;t us. And when we deny there things, he either biddeth us proove the contrarie; or telleth us onely at the be&s;t, that &s;ome &s;ay &s;o.</P>
<P N="2">2. I an&s;were, That though this were &s;ufficient for Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw to an&s;were by bare deniall of tho&s;e things, that Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on objecteth, and
<PB N="123" REF="67"> Mai&s;ter Cans part were, if he will reply, to take away &s;uch his an&s;were, by con|firming and making good Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons a&s;&s;ertions; yet in an&s;were to this very argument now in hand, as al&s;o very frequently el&s;where, he rendreth rea|&s;on of his deniall, both of propo&s;ition and a&s;&s;umption: which being a trueth &s;o evident and obvious to every ones eye, that doth but reade over Mai&s;ter Brad|&s;haws an&s;were here; had Mai&s;ter Can had either any &s;hame in his forehead, or wit in his head-piece, he would never have adventured in &s;o &s;hamefull, or &s;ha|meles rather, a manner, to vent &s;o evident an untrueth, again&s;t his owne eye|&s;ight and the open view of all men, and thereby to cra&s;e &amp; crack, yea to wrack, not his con&s;cience onely, but his credite too.</P>
<P>But this is not either the fir&s;tly Mai&s;ter Can hath here tolde, nor the fir&s;t time that he tolde this lye. For we have had it more than once before: and as they &s;ay of &s;ome addicted to that vice, that they tell &s;ome lyes &s;ometimes &s;o often to others, that at length they come to believe them them&s;elves; &s;o it may be it is befalln Mai&s;ter Can in this ca&s;e, that he hath tolde his Reader this un|true tale &s;o oft, that his own eyes now can hardly per&s;uade him, though it be ne|ver &s;o evidently fal&s;e, not to yeeld credit thereunto. Or it may be it is with Mai&s;ter Can, as &s;ome &s;ay of the E&s;trich, that when &s;he hath hidden her head in a bu&s;h, &s;he thincketh no body can &s;ee her. He is one peradventure of tho&s;e, of whome the Greeke hi&s;torian &s;aith, that when they winke them&s;elves, they thinke others &s;ee not them. Sure either he hoped, that his Readers wanting Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws booke, being not every where to be had, to &s;ee his words, would beleeve him upon his word; ot el&s;e, that his confident and con&s;tant a|vowing of it, would beare men down, and make them not believe theire owne eyes; and his wilfull wincking cau&s;e them not to &s;ee what they &s;aw. I &s;ay no more for the pre&s;ent, but God amend him, and give him grace to &s;ee his &s;in.</P>
<P>Howbeit, that we may &s;ee, that the man hath yet &s;ome metall leaft in him, as well for matter of replying as lying; (though for this latter he is much better of the twain) be maketh way hereunto, by telling us, that <HI>moreover the points in con|trover&s;y, which are of greate&s;t weight and moment, he either puts quite of by a fine trick, they need no an&s;were,</HI> (but of this Mai&s;ter Can gives no in&s;tance, &amp; it may well goe with the re&s;t to make his fardell of fittons the fuller) <HI>or el&s;e an&s;wereth to them be&s;ides the matter.</HI></P>
<P>Now for an in&s;tance of this latter, as having forgot to di&s;cover it when time was, and yet &s;aying <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ow the very &s;ame in effect he &s;aid then, &s;ave that he leaves out <HI>the Divell &amp; Antichri&s;t,</HI> here, (the u&s;uall flowers of his raving rhetorick,) and it was but the very next page before that he &s;aid it; but mildoubting belike
<PB N="124" REF="68"> his Readers &s;hort memory, and loath that, what but even now he &s;ayd, and would now &s;ay over again, &s;hould be lo&s;t, he fetcheth us a jump backward to the fourth propo&s;it<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">on of the fift Rea&s;on of the &s;econd &s;ort: there, &s;aith he, <HI>the propo&s;ition being, that every true vi&s;ible Church hath power,</HI> &amp;c. <HI>his reply</HI> (you mu&s;t remember Mai&s;ter Can &s;peakes it, with whom to an&s;were is to reply) <HI>out is, that All are no f<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">l&s;e Churches, that doe not u&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> this power,</HI> &amp;c. And thus ha|ving taken Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw tardy, (as he &s;uppo&s;eth) he followeth him hard at the heels, and layeth on loade, to be even with him for alltogether at parting; for this is the la&s;t bl<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">w he reacheth at his whole an&s;were. <HI>And is not this, &s;aith he thinke we wittily an&s;wered? we &s;ay, from theire principles, that a true Church can not be without power; but theire Churches are wholly without it. For an&s;were he tells us, a true Church may wa<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">t the u&s;e of it. VVe &s;ay &s;o too But doth it follow, becau&s;e a man in a &s;ound hath not the u&s;e, for the time, of that life which is in him therefore one may be quite without life, and yet not dead? To this effect he rea|&s;oneth or el&s;e, as Paul &s;aid of &s;ome, he under&s;tood not what he &s;aid, nor whereof he affirmed, but &s;pake evill of the things which he knew not.</HI></P>
<P>Thus &s;illy &s;oule, or &s;ot rather, he thinketh he hath hit M^r. Brad&s;haw home, and paid him to the purpo&s;e, for attempting in this manner to <HI>reply,</HI> (as he &s;peakes) on his brother John&s;on.</P>
<P>And &s;urely were this his la&s;t charge on Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw true, that <HI>he &s;pake evill of t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ings he knew not,</HI> yet were not Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;o bad as Mai&s;ter Can that <HI>&s;peaketh evi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">l</HI> (if lyes and untruths be evill) &s;o oft and &s;o notoriou&s;ly again&s;t his own con&s;cience of tho&s;e things, that &s;eeing evident before his eyes, he knoweth to be otherwi&s;e.</P>
<P>But for the thing it &s;elfe, Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws an&s;were is &s;ufficient, yea com|pleate. For</P>
<P N="1">1. To Mai&s;ter John&s;ons maine hypotheticall propo&s;ition, con&s;i&s;ting of 7. &s;everall &s;ingle propo&s;itions taken out of <HI>the offer,</HI> &amp; making up its antecedent, he an&s;wereth directly by denying the con&s;equence in generall.</P>
<P N="2">2. He proceedeth in particular to render rea&s;ons, (which yet Mai&s;ter Can mo&s;t fal&s;ely affirmeth that he never doth) di&s;tinctly, of his former deniall of the con&s;equence in generall, in regard of the &s;everall &s;ingle propo&s;itions or axi|omes there<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">n contained. And to the &s;ame, as it taketh in this fourth propo&s;ition or &s;ingle axiome, and &s;o maketh up a &s;yllogi&s;me thus conceived:</P>
<PB N="125" REF="68">
<P><HI>If every true vi&s;ible Church of Chri&s;t, or ordinary a&s;&s;embly of the faithfull, hath by Chri&s;ts ordinance power in it &s;elfe, immediately un|der Chr st, to elect and ordain, deprive and depo&s;e theire mini&s;ters, &amp; to execute all other eccle&s;iasticall offices; then it is not Lawfull to heare or have any &s;pirituall communion, with the pre&s;ent mini&s;tery of the Church a&s;&s;emblys of England.</HI></P>
<P><HI>But every <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ue vi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">b<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e Church hath &s;uch power, &amp;c. Ergo.</HI> he &s;ubjoyneth this rea&s;on, why he denieth the con&s;equence of the propo&s;ition, &s;o made up; be|cau&s;e that, <HI>allbeit eve<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">y true Church had &s;uch power, as is here mentioned by the ordinance of Christ; yet it would not foll w that our Churches either not u&s;ing, or restrained by humane Laws f<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">om the exerci&s;e of &s;uch power</HI> (which were all at mo&s;t that could be prooved) <HI>were the efore no true Churches</HI></P>
<P>And this was a full and &s;ufficient an&s;were to Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons argument, as it is there framed. For that every true Church hath &s;uch power Mai&s;ter Iohn|&s;on prooves ndeed by the <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ayings of &s;uch &amp; &s;uch; but that our Churches have it not, he prooveth not at all, Being propounded in Mai&s;ter Cans forme as now it is, a man might well demurre on both parts of it. For as for the propo|&s;ition, &s;etting mens &s;ayings a&s;ide, Mai&s;ter Can I &s;uppo&s;e, will hardly be able to produce any one direct place of Scripture, where &s;uch an ab&s;olute power is gi|ven by Chri&s;t to every particular Church-a&s;&s;embly, as is here related; or to pro|duce out of Scripture any one evident example of the exerci&s;e of the &s;ame. And for the A&s;&s;umption, which he, &s;illy man, thinking cock &s;ure, never once lookes af|ter: &s;uppo&s;ing &s;uch a power by Chri&s;ts ordinance conferred, upon every par|ticular Church-a&s;&s;embly, he w<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ll never be able to proove, that our par|ticular Church-a&s;&s;emblys have it not, to wit, by Chri&s;ts ordinance; unles he will, after his brother Iohn&s;ons wi&s;e manner, run round in a circle, and proove that therefore they have it not, becau&s;e they are no true Churches. For all that he will be able to produce, is but matter of &s;act, to wit, that either they u&s;e it not, or are by humane Laws re&s;trained from the u&s;e of it. And as &s;oundly by the &s;ame rea&s;on he may proove, that Paul had no &s;uch power, as the other Apo|&s;tles had, or was not therefore a true Apo&s;tle, becau&s;e he u&s;ed it not. 1. Cor. 9.4, 5, 6, 15. Or, that tho&s;e whome the Jewi&s;h governers excommunicated, for the profe&s;&s;ion of Chri&s;t Joh. 9.22, 34. had not power by Gods Law of acce&s;&s;e to Gods hou&s;e, and to the a&s;&s;emblys of his &s;ervants.</P>
<P>Thus at length after a tedious winding and turning and making forward
<PB N="126" REF="69"> and backward, as the bla&s;t of Mai&s;ter Cans breath hath blown with us, we are arrived at the end of his roving reply.</P>
<P>Hence forward he hath taken on him the office of an an&s;werer, wherein how he hath acquit him&s;elfe, the &s;equele will &s;hew.</P>
</DIV3>
</DIV2>
<DIV2 TYPE="part">
<HEAD><HI>VV. Bradshaws</HI> Rea&s;ons or Arguments, tending to proove, that it is a &s;inne to &s;eparate from the publicke mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;|&s;emblys of England: Directly contrarie to Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons own Rea&s;ons, and u&s;ually in that regard, made in the &s;ame moode and figure.</HEAD>
<DIV3 N="1" TYPE="argument">
<HEAD>The fir&s;t Argument.</HEAD>
<P>It is a &s;in to &s;eparate from that mini&s;tery, which is &s;et by Chri&s;t in his Church, for the worke of his mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>But &s;uch is the mini&s;tery of the Churcha&s;&s;emblys of England.</P>
<P>Therefore it is a &s;in to &s;eparate from it.</P>
<P>The proofes which he bringeth to confirme the maine propo&s;ition of his fir&s;t Rea&s;on, will &s;erve to proove this.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption may be prooved thus:</P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of true pa&s;tors and teachers is the mini&s;tery which is &s;et by Chri&s;t in his Church.</P>
<P>The mini&s;tery afore&s;aid is the mini&s;tery of true pa&s;tors and teachers. There|fore,</P>
<P>It is a mini&s;tery &s;et by Chri&s;t in his Church.</P>
<P>The propo&s;ition is his own.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption I proove thus:</P>
<P>The mini&s;tery which hath in it all things e&s;&s;entiall to the office and calling of true pa&s;tors and teachers, is the mini&s;tery of true pa&s;tors and teachers.</P>
<P>But &s;uch is our mini&s;tery, therefore</P>
<P>It is the true mini&s;tery of true pa&s;tors and teachers. I think he is not &s;o &s;imple as to denie the propo&s;ition. The a&s;&s;umption is prooved thus.</P>
<P>To have &s;uch gifts as Chri&s;t a&s;cended up into heaven to give for the worke of his mini&s;tery; to be outwardly called to that worke by &s;uch a Church, as profe&s;&s;eth the fundamentall points of the Go&s;pell; to in&s;truct the people com|mitted
<PB N="127" REF="69"> to theire charge in the doctrine of the Law and Go&s;pell, to admini&s;ter unto them the holy Sacraments of Chri&s;t, and to be their mouth in prayer unto God, are all things e&s;&s;entially appertaining to the office of true pa&s;tors and teachers.</P>
<P>Such is the mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys.</P>
<P>Therefore it is the true mini&s;tery of pa&s;tors &amp; teachers.</P>
<P>If he deny the propo&s;ition, he mu&s;t &s;hew what other matters doe e&s;&s;entially appertaine unto their call<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ng, which yet he hath not done.</P>
<P>For confirmation of the A&s;&s;umption, it &s;hal be &s;ufficient, that we can &s;et forth unto him &s;uch a mini&s;terie in&s;undry of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, of which all the&s;e points may be truely verifyed, their conformity to the State, and theire &s;in therein (if any be) notwith&s;tanding.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="2" TYPE="argument">
<HEAD>The &s;econd Argument.</HEAD>
<P>The mini&s;terie of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys is not the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>Therefore it is a &s;in to &s;eparate from the &s;ame.</P>
<P>The con&s;equent mu&s;t be true, untill he can bring forth any other excepti|ons again&s;t our mini&s;tery, then &s;uch as appertain to the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>The A&s;&s;umption is prooved thus.</P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of Antichri&s;t is of Prie&s;ts and Deacons.</P>
<P>But the mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys is not the mini&s;tery of Prie&s;ts &amp; Deacons.</P>
<P>Therefore it is not the mini&s;tery of Antichri&s;ts apo&s;ta&s;y.</P>
<P>The propo&s;ition is his owne.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption, if I &s;hould follow his learning, I might proove thus:</P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of true pa&s;tors and teachers is not the mini&s;tery of Prie&s;ts &amp; Deacons.</P>
<P>But &s;uch is the mini&s;tery of our a&s;&s;emblys. Ergo, &amp;c. And for the proofe of the a&s;&s;umption, I might &s;end him back again to my fir&s;t argument; but I will leave &s;uch a kinde of di&s;puting to him&s;elfe, as his owne peculiar, and proove it otherwi&s;e thus:</P>
<P>That mini&s;tery, which in the main &amp; e&s;&s;entiall facultys and offices thereof,
<PB N="128" REF="70"> is oppo&s;ite to the maine and e&s;&s;entiall facultys, functions and offices of Prie&s;ts &amp; Deacons, is not the mini&s;tery of Prie&s;ts and Deacons.</P>
<P>But &s;uch is our mini&s;terie.</P>
<P>Therefore it is not the mini&s;tery of Prie&s;ts and Deacons.</P>
<P>The propo&s;ition is undeniable.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption may be prooved thus.</P>
<P>That mini&s;terie which is oppo&s;ite to the Sacrifice of the Ma&s;&s;e, is oppo&s;ite to the maine and e&s;&s;entiall facultys, functions, and offices of Prie&s;ts and Dea|cons.</P>
<P>Such is our mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>Therefore it is oppo&s;ite to the main and e&s;&s;entiall facultys of Prie&s;ts &amp; Dea|cons.</P>
<P>I doe not &s;ee which of the&s;e premi&s;&s;es he can with any colourable rea&s;on denie. I will therefore for beare to proceede further in this argument, untill I can &s;ee what he can &s;ay again&s;t it.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="3" TYPE="argument">
<HEAD>The third Argument.</HEAD>
<P>That mini&s;terie, which profe&s;&s;ing Chri&s;t by maintaining his covenant with the &s;eales of it, doth directly and profe&s;&s;edly warre again&s;t the bea&s;t, &amp; again&s;t all that wor&s;hip his image, and receave his marke in their forehead and hand, can not without &s;in be &s;eparated from.</P>
<P>Such is our mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>Therefore it can not without &s;in be &s;eparated from,</P>
<P>The propo&s;ition is true: for no mini&s;tery &s;o profe&s;&s;ing Chri&s;t, but the true mini&s;tery of Ie&s;us Chri&s;t, doth directly and profe&s;&s;edly warre in manner and forme afore&s;aid.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption I proove thus.</P>
<P>That mini&s;tery which &s;o profe&s;&s;ing, oppo&s;eth it &s;elfe profe&s;&s;edly to the Pope of Rome, as that great Antichri&s;t; which directly and expre&s;ly renoun|ceth all Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall homage unto him, or any of his profe&s;&s;ed cleargie; that denyeth and di&s;puteth again&s;t (mo&s;t effectually) all the main and fundamentall points of Popery; which oppo&s;eth it &s;elfe, to the uttermo&s;t of the &s;trength and power thereof, to all the profe&s;&s;ed friends of the Pope and Church of Rome, that holdeth and maintaineth all the members thereof to be Hereticks, and idolaters, and in the State of condemnation, and &s;uch as no good Chri|&s;tian
<PB N="129" REF="70"> ought to communicate &s;piritually withall, that mini&s;tery, I &s;ay, doth dire|ctly warre again&s;t the bea&s;t, and again&s;t all that wor&s;hip his image, &amp;c.</P>
<P>But all this is done in and by our mini&s;terie.</P>
<P>Therefore it doth directly and profe&s;&s;edly warre again&s;t the bea&s;t, &amp;c.</P>
<P>I know not which of the&s;e propo&s;itions he can with any face, deny. But de|ny either when he will, I &s;hall be ready to proove them.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="4" TYPE="argument">
<HEAD>The fourth Argument.</HEAD>
<P>That mini&s;tery, which deriveth the power and functions thereof from Chri&s;t can not without &s;in be &s;eparated from.</P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys deriveth the power and functions thereof from Chri&s;t.</P>
<P>Therefore it can not without &s;in be &s;eparated from.</P>
<P>The proofes of the main propo&s;ition of his fourth argument will &s;erve to proove this propo&s;ition.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption is as &s;ufficiently prooved by my fir&s;t and third Arguments, as his contrary is by his third and fir&s;t.</P>
<P>But I further proove it thus.</P>
<P>If the power and functions of our mini&s;tery for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof, be the very &s;ame, for which Chri&s;t a&s;cended up into heaven, to procure for the edifica|tion of his body the Church, then doth it for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof derive the power and functions thereof from Chri&s;t.</P>
<P>But the fir&s;t is true.</P>
<P>Therefore the latter is true al&s;o.</P>
<P>The con&s;equent of the propo&s;ition is undeniable.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption is as undeniable, except he can &s;hew any &s;ub&s;tantiall diffe|rence betweene the one and the other.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="5" TYPE="argument">
<HEAD>The fift Argument.</HEAD>
<P>That mini&s;tery which worketh upon the con&s;ciences of men by a &s;pirituall calling, can not without &s;in be &s;eparated from.</P>
<P>Such is our mini&s;terie.</P>
<P>Therefore it can not without &s;in be &s;eparated from.</P>
<P>The propo&s;ition can not be gain-&s;aid.</P>
<PB N="130" REF="71">
<P>The a&s;&s;umption is prooved by my &s;econd argument, but I further proove it in this manner.</P>
<P>That mini&s;tery which worketh upon the con&s;ciences of men, onely by a &s;pirituall gift and grace given by Chri&s;t, and directed by the word of God, doth worke upon the con&s;ciences of men by a true &s;pirituall calling.</P>
<P>Thus doth the mini&s;terie of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys.</P>
<P>Therefore it worketh upon the con&s;ciences of men by a true &s;pirituall cal|ling.</P>
<P>The trueth of either of the&s;e propo&s;itions I &s;hall ea&s;ily proove, if they be denyed.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="6" TYPE="argument">
<HEAD>The &s;ixt Argument.</HEAD>
<P>The mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys is no &s;trange mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>Therefore it is a &s;in to &s;eparate from it.</P>
<P>This antecedent is better prooved by my fir&s;t argument, then his contrary a&s;&s;umption is by the fir&s;t argument.</P>
<P>I proove it notwith&s;tanding thus:</P>
<P>That mini&s;tery, which for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof was practi&s;ed by Chri&s;t, the Apo&s;tles, many worthie an<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> famous martyrs and witne&s;&s;es of Je&s;us Chri&s;t in Church-a&s;&s;emblys, is no &s;trange mini&s;t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ry.</P>
<P>Such is our mini&s;tery for the &s;ub&s;tance thereof.</P>
<P>Therefore it is no &s;trange mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>Surely he will never deny the propo&s;ition.</P>
<P>Neither can he deny the a&s;&s;umption, except he can &s;hew a &s;ub&s;tantiall dif|ference betweene the mini&s;terys afore&s;aid.</P>
</DIV3>
<DIV3 N="7" TYPE="argument">
<HEAD>The &s;eventh Argument.</HEAD>
<P>That mini&s;tery which is from heaven can not without &s;in be &s;eparated from.</P>
<P>The mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys is from heaven.</P>
<P>Therefore it can not without &s;in be &s;eparated from.</P>
<P>The propo&s;ition is plain.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption is prooved by all the former arguments, which in his Lo|gick Schooles, in his owne cau&s;e, is proofe good enough. But I adde a fur|ther proofe.</P>
<PB N="131" REF="71">
<P>That mini&s;tery which in all the parts and powers thereof is principally ex|erci&s;ed and directed to bring men to heaven, is a mini&s;tery from heaven.</P>
<P>Such is our mini&s;tery afore&s;aid.</P>
<P>Therefore it is from heaven.</P>
<P>The propo&s;ition is firme: it being not po&s;&s;ible, that that mini&s;tery which is from earth or hell, &s;hould be principally directed and exerci&s;ed in all the parts and powers thereof to bring men to heaven.</P>
<P>The a&s;&s;umption may not be denied, except he can &s;hew in what other thing it is more principally exerci&s;ed, and to what other end directed; which he can never doe.</P>
<P>To the&s;e Rea&s;ons Mai&s;ter Can giveth us a very quick and &s;hort an&s;were, that <HI>he hath neither time nor minde to follow Mai&s;ter Bradshaw in his va|garys, and idle repetitions:</HI> thereby wounding through Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws &s;ides his own fellow, Mai&s;ter John&s;on as the Per&s;ian did through his fellows &s;ides the Magitian. For Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw in the&s;e rea&s;ons preci&s;ely followeth Mai|&s;ter Iohn&s;on, as Mai&s;ter Can him&s;elfe al&s;o, (though he tearme it <HI>a mocking imi|tation of him</HI>) acknowledgeth. But <HI>he will in few words,</HI> he &s;aith, <HI>&s;et down the &s;um of his long talke:</HI> (though nothing &s;o long as his brother Iohn&s;ons was) <HI>&amp; give an&s;were to it briefly.</HI></P>
<P>So having &s;et down the la&s;t &s;yllogi&s;me of the fir&s;t rea&s;on.</P>
<P N="1">1 He &s;aith, <HI>for the propo&s;ition he will not much contend with him, though it be lame to the ground:</HI> and withall telleth him, how <HI>it might have heen framed more briefly and much better.</HI> A fit man indeed to reade Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw a Logick lecture; if theire writings be both well weighed.</P>
<P>But for the <HI>lamenes</HI> of it, Mai&s;ter Can might have con&s;idered, what Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw minded him at the fir&s;t propo&s;ition for the proofe of it, that it hath all tho&s;e Scripture crutches to &s;upport it and keepe it up from falling to the ground, that Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons parallell propo&s;ition of his fir&s;t argument, for the a&s;&s;umption of his fir&s;t rea&s;on had; and mentioneth <HI>all the e&s;&s;entialls,</HI> that Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on there doth, and con&s;equently they mu&s;t both either &s;tand or fall together.</P>
<P N="2">2. <HI>The a&s;&s;umption,</HI> he &s;aith, <HI>is fal&s;e.</HI></P>
<P><HI>For</HI> 1. <HI>Our ministers have not the gifts, he &s;peaketh of; as he hath manife|&s;ted from our own writings.</HI></P>
<P>But to affirme, that none of the mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys have, yea or that the greater part of them have not, tho&s;e gifts in a competent
<PB N="132" REF="72"> mea&s;ure, yea very many of them in an eminent degree, who&s;oever &s;hall &s;ay it, is &s;o notorious an untruth, as the evidence of the thing it &s;elfe doth aloud cry out the contrarie.</P>
<P N="2">2. <HI>The Bishops from whome they take theire mini&s;tery, are not in any &s;en&s;e a Church, &s;ave a malignant one. And this alone is enough to overthrow all.</HI></P>
<P>To this Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw hath fully and largely an&s;wered on Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons fift rea&s;on of the fir&s;t &s;ort, and the obj<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ctions by him there propoun|ded. Neither hath M^r. Can yet made any &s;ound replie th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">reunto.</P>
<P N="3">3. <HI>T<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ough they in&s;truct the people in &s;ome doctrines of the Law and Go&s;pell, as doe Papists and other Hereticks, yet the reading of the Service-booke in forme an manner; the celebrating of mariage; bury|ing of the dead; conformity &amp; &s;ub&s;cription; are more e&s;sentiall to their ministery, and more nece&s;&s;arily required by the Laws of theire Church, then is preaching either of Law, and Go&s;pell.</HI> And this he proo|veth by the te&s;timony of Mai&s;ter Bradshaw, affirming (as he relateth him) that, <HI>t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">o&s;e that yeeld to the Ceremonys, need not preach at all except they will; nor doe any part of divine Service, if they will keepe a Curate conformable to &s;ay Service.</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. For Mai&s;ter Cans coupling our mini&s;ters with <HI>Papi&s;ts</HI> and <HI>Hereticks</HI> in <HI>teaching &s;ome Doctrines of the Law and Go&s;pell,</HI> I will &s;ay no more, but ap|peale for the ju&s;tification of the entire body of &s;aving doctrine both in Law &amp; Go&s;pell commonlie taught by our mini&s;ters, to the pious and learned labours of a numberle&s;&s;e multitude of them, fir&s;t preached to their people, and after publi&s;hed in print, &s;ufficient to &s;atisfie any rea&s;onable per&s;on in this point; &amp; though, not to &s;top the mouthes of &s;uch barking carrs, as this Mai&s;ter Can is, yet to evince evidently his malitious and virulent vanity, in yoaking them with <HI>he|reticks</HI> and <HI>papists</HI> herein.</P>
<P N="2">2. To omit, that &s;omethings here mentioned by him, as <HI>Sub&s;cription,</HI> are no <HI>ministeriall offices</HI> or <HI>employments:</HI> Allbeit, it &s;hould be granted, that the&s;e things mentioned, were <HI>more nece&s;&s;arily required by the Laws of our Church, then preaching of Law and Go&s;pell:</HI> And againe, that (as Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw is &s;ayd to &s;ay) <HI>&s;ome mini&s;ters neede not preach them&s;elves</HI> (the Law not compelling them thereunto) <HI>if they will maintaine a Curate,</HI> &amp;c. yet it followeth not
<PB N="133" REF="72"> hence, either that the mini&s;ters of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys, doe not in&s;truct the people committed to theire charge in the doctrine of the Law and Go&s;pell, (which is all Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw &s;aith, in his a&s;&s;umption, of this branch,) for &s;up|po&s;e that &s;ome need not, or doe not, what is that to them, and tho&s;e &s;o many, that con&s;tantly doe? or that the&s;e things are therefore, as Mai&s;ter Can &s;aith, <HI>m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">re e&s;&s;entiall to their ministery, then the preaching of Law or Go&s;pell are.</HI> Mat|ters of order, in politick re&s;pects, are many times in all States, pre&s;&s;ed more &s;trictly, then matters in them&s;elves of more imp<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">rtance.</P>
<P N="4">4. <HI>The Sacraments, as &s;ome of our owne &s;ay are by them wicked|ly mingled and prophaned, and wickedly admini&s;tred. And if Mai|&s;ter Bradshaw may be beleeved, divers Sacraments not of divine in&s;ti|tution admini&s;tred; as cros, ring, &s;urplice, &amp;c.</HI></P>
<P>For the former, to omit that though &s;ome fa<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">l<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ng in the admini&s;tration of Sacraments were granted, yet that, which Ma<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ter Brad&s;haw here &s;aith, may &s;till &s;tand firme: the charge is too generall; as if one &s;hould charge Mai&s;ter Can with living wickedly and prophanely, but not &s;hewing wherein: &amp; mu&s;t pa&s;&s;e therefore as a fond and frivolous charge, untill the action be more par|ticularly laid, that a ju&s;t i&s;&s;ue may be joined.</P>
<P>For the latter likewi&s;e, though it contradict not Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws a&s;&s;er|tion, who &s;aith, that <HI>they admini&s;ter the holy Sacraments of Chri&s;t;</HI> (which ap|peareth to be a trueth undeniable, when Mai&s;ter Can him&s;elfe can not deny it, an yet denyeth the a&s;&s;umption, whereof this is one b<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">anch,) whether Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw or any other (for I know not who his Author is, nor dare I take ought on Mai&s;ter Cans word) may &s;o tearm the ceremonys here mentioned, taking the word <HI>Sacrament</HI> in a very large &s;en&s;e, for any outward act, ge&s;ture or orna|ment u&s;ed in the performance of Gods wor&s;hip, (and yet neither can that well be &s;aid of the ring) it is not true, nor doth it appeare by any con&s;titution of our Church, or part of our Liturgie, that any of the&s;e are either enjoyned, or u&s;ed as <HI>Sacraments</HI> truely and properlie &s;o tearmed; to wit, as <HI>Seales, of Gods covenant of grace;</HI> or, <HI>of ju&s;tification by faith in Christ.</HI></P>
<P N="5">5. <HI>The Prayers our mini&s;ters are to make to God, when they reade theire Service-booke, mu&s;t of ab&s;olute nece&s;sitie, without partiall di|&s;pen&s;ation, or manifest violation of oath, be foolish, fal&s;e and &s;u|per&s;titious.</HI></P>
<P>To let pa&s;&s;e, what further exceptions might ju&s;tly be taken to this, as well
<PB N="134" REF="73"> as to the former (for who can endure to di&s;cour&s;e more than needs mu&s;t, with &s;uch a foulemouthed frantick?) his charge is too wilde to be reduced to any due i&s;&s;ue; nor doth it, though it were in &s;ome particulars acknowledged, cro&s;&s;e the branch intended of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws a&s;&s;umption.</P>
<P>But let us yet &s;traine to heare a litle more of his ravings: he will not trouble us long: he is taking his farwell; and like him whome herein he imitates, he is the more furious, it may be, becau&s;e he is neere at an end.</P>
<P><HI>I de&s;ire the Reader,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>to ob&s;erve how wittilie he confirmeth the a&s;&s;umption.</HI> It shall be &s;ufficient, <HI>&s;aith he,</HI> that we can &s;et forth to him &s;uch a mini&s;tery in &s;undry of our Church a&s;|&s;emblys, of which all tho&s;e points may be truly verifyed. <HI>VVho would have thought, that Mai&s;ter Bradshaw having blotted &s;o many leaves of his booke with meere &s;coffing at Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on about his Logick, should &s;o gro&s;ly overshoot him&s;elfe in tearms of rea&s;oning. For what wi&s;e man but he, would have laid down a po&s;ition, that compre|hended indefinitely and generally all the ministers of their a&s;&s;emblys: &amp; to proove it, &s;aith:</HI> We can shew &s;ome &s;uch. <HI>It &s;eemeth then that tho&s;e</HI> &s;ome &s;uch <HI>mu&s;t make all the re&s;t true. In trueth he &s;o inferres, or el&s;e his Argument is crackbrained, and lacks not truth onely but &s;en&s;e al&s;o.</HI> And hereupon he runneth out further in this like &s;traine; comparing Mai&s;ter Bradshaw to <HI>&s;uch crafty merchants, who to put of the fal&s;e wares that lie on theire hands, will shew the buyer a litle of the be&s;t, by that meanes cunningly to shift all the re&s;t upon him.</HI> And telleth us, that <HI>he mentioneth the oftner the&s;e his de|ceavable shifts, that they may have more honest dealing hereafter, that if they will justify all theire mini&s;ters and Churches, they will &s;ay &s;o di|rectly; or if but &s;ome few, they &s;peake it out plainlie, &amp; not make folke believe they meane all, when them&s;elves are per&s;waded that the greate&s;t number are fal&s;e and Antichri&s;tian.</HI></P>
<P>And I &s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">all de&s;ire the Reader likewi&s;e to ob&s;erve, how witle&s;ly and &s;en&s;le&s;ly, not unrea&s;onably alone, Mai&s;ter Can carieth him&s;elfe in this his ram|bling and &s;cambling di&s;cour&s;e; not knowing, or taking notice, at lea&s;t, of the ground and matter of the di&s;pute; and talking loo&s;ely withall at randome, as one
<PB N="135" REF="73"> very &s;orille acquainted with the rules, either of right rea&s;oning, or right &s;pea|king.</P>
<P N="1">1. <HI>It shall be &s;ufficient,</HI> &s;aith Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, <HI>to &s;et him forth &s;undry &s;uch.</HI> And it is &s;ufficient &s;ay I, (what&s;oever Mai&s;ter Can prate to the contrary) &s;o to doe, for the proofe of his a&s;&s;umption, and the evincing of the trueth in que&s;tion. The controver&s;y between Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw and Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on is whether &s;uch a Separation, as Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on and his faction maintaine, from the Church-a&s;&s;emblys of England, be &s;infull or no. This &s;eparation thus contro|verted is generall, &s;o practi&s;ed, &s;o profe&s;&s;ed, and &s;o pro&s;ecuted in the whole di&s;|cour&s;e, and di&s;pute. Now there is not onely no punie, or Fre&s;hman in the Schooles, but no man who&s;oever, that is not wholly void, I &s;ay not, of the art of rea&s;oning, but even of Rea&s;on it &s;elfe, or that hath not <HI>lae&s;a principia,</HI> but is able to acquaint Mai&s;ter Can with this common ground of rea&s;on; that <HI>any one par|ticular</HI> (and much more <HI>manie) affirmed is &s;ufficient to overthrow a generall de|nyed.</HI> It is one of the fir&s;t grounds in rea&s;on, that <HI>Contradi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">tories can not both be true:</HI> but if one be true, the other mu&s;t needs be fal&s;e, And an other nece&s;&s;ari|ly thence flowing, that <HI>a particular negative is &s;ufficient to take away a generall affirmative; and a particular affirmative to beare down a generall negative.</HI> If Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw therefore had &s;aid, that he could &s;et forth but <HI>&s;ome one</HI> onely &s;uch Church-a&s;&s;embly among us, it were &s;ufficient to evince the Separa|tion here que&s;tioned, as it is generally layd, &s;infull; and to proove Mai&s;ter Iohn|&s;on in avowing the &s;aid Separation, not Lawfull onely but nece&s;&s;ary, to defend an untruth: and how much more then, when he &s;aith he can &s;et him out &s;undry &s;uch?</P>
<P>And now whether Brad&s;haw or Mai&s;ter Can have in matter of rea&s;oning gro&s;&s;ely over&s;hot him&s;elfe, let any rea&s;onable man decide.</P>
<P N="2">2. To let pa&s;&s;e that notorious untruth; that <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaw hath blot|ted many leaves of his booke with meere &s;coffing at Maister Iohn&s;on about his Lo|gick;</HI> that childi&s;h charge, that he hath <HI>gro&s;&s;ely overshot him&s;elfe in terms of rea|&s;oning;</HI> (for what <HI>termes</HI> doth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw here u&s;e, other then u&s;uall and authenticall?) and that incongruous coherence; <HI>What wi&s;e man, but he, would have layd down a po&s;ition,</HI> &amp;c. <HI>and to proove it, &s;aith</HI> &amp;c?</P>
<P>Surely wi&s;e men and in their wits doe not u&s;ually &s;peake, much le&s;&s;e write, thus. But we mu&s;t beare with Mai&s;ter Can, as well for Grammer as Logick. His heate and fury makes him forget oft the rules and ground of either of them.
<PB N="136" REF="74"> Con&s;ider we onely the main matter. The crime charged upon Mai&s;ter Brad|&s;haw, and that &s;uch as <HI>no wi&s;e man</HI> would ever have been overtaken with, is that <HI>having layd a po&s;ition comprehending indefinitely and generally all the mini|&s;ters of their a&s;&s;emblys, to proove it, he &s;aith, he can shew &s;ome &s;uch.</HI></P>
<P>But 1. Mai&s;ter Can here &s;heweth us a trick or two of leger demaine. For he abates mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws tearmes in the one branch; <HI>&s;undry,</HI> &s;aith mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, <HI>&s;ome</HI> &s;aith mai&s;ter Can, belike &s;uppo&s;ing that mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw had <HI>failed</HI> there, as he telleth him, in his <HI>Logick termes.</HI> Then rai&s;eth them on the other &s;ide, in the latter branch, as high. <HI>The mini&s;terie of the Church-a&s;&s;em|blys,</HI> &s;aith mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw. <HI>All the mini&s;ters of the Church-a&s;semblys,</HI> &s;aith mai&s;ter Can, and writes the words withall in a different Character, as mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws owne expres tearms, which is mo&s;t fal&s;e. Neither doth Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw as by his own words appeareth, &s;o &s;peake; nor was it needfull, as hath been before &s;hewed, that he &s;hould. Yea mai&s;ter Cans own words containing a manife&s;t contradiction, doe evidently evince the fal&s;ehood of his charge, and convince him of untruth. He &s;aith mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw <HI>&s;peaketh indifinitely:</HI> and yet addeth, that, <HI>he &s;aith, All,</HI> &amp;c. Now if he <HI>&s;peake indifinitely,</HI> how doth he <HI>&s;ay, All.</HI> Or if he <HI>&s;ay, All:</HI> expre&s;&s;ely, how &s;peaketh he <HI>indefinitely?</HI> &s;ince that, then a propo&s;ition is &s;ayd to be <HI>indefinite,</HI> when the note or tearme of quantitie is not expre&s;&s;ed.</P>
<P>For as for that which he &s;peaketh, after his blending and blundering man|ner, of <HI>comprehending indefinitely and genera<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">lie:</HI> as if <HI>indefinitely and general|ly</HI> were in &s;en&s;e and &s;ub&s;tance all one, it is ju&s;t indeed according to the re&s;t of his Logick, &amp; if a man therefore &s;hall &s;ay, <HI>There are Schi&s;maticks at Amster|dam;</HI> becau&s;e he &s;peaketh <HI>indefinitely,</HI> he mu&s;t needs be under&s;tood generally; that <HI>All the Schi&s;maticks that are in the world harbour there.</HI> Or if he &s;hall &s;ay; that <HI>Fooles and Doltes write bookes;</HI> he mu&s;t needs be conceived to compre|hend <HI>all writers,</HI> (becau&s;e his &s;peech is <HI>indefinite</HI>) and mai&s;ter Can among the re&s;t. But were mai&s;ter Can &s;o wi&s;e, as he would &s;eeme to be, he might know; or had he not been over&s;lightly ver&s;ed in the art of rea&s;oning, he might have learned; That <HI>an Indefinite either tearme or axiome may be taken, &amp; &s;o is to be, either generally or particularlie, according to the nature and tenour of the &s;ubject matter in hand:</HI> and is therefore in mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons argument to be taken uni|ver&s;ally; becau&s;e a generall default enforcing a generall &s;eparation is to be proo|ved: whereas in mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws argument it need not be &s;o taken; becau&s;e the particular being made good, is enough to inferre a conclu&s;ion directly con|tradictory
<PB N="137" REF="74"> unto that of mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on. And you &s;ee now, how wi&s;ely mai&s;te Can hath made this his wi&s;e charge good again&s;t mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw.</P>
<P N="3">3. But let us wade yet a litle further in this mire &amp; mud. <HI>It &s;eemeth</HI> (yet at lea&s;t, &s;aith mai&s;ter Can.) <HI>that tho&s;e</HI> (Some Such) <HI>mu&s;t make all the re&s;t true. In trueth, &s;o he inferrs, or els his argument is crack-brained, &amp; lacks not trueth onely, but &s;en&s;e all&s;o.</HI></P>
<P>I, might wel demande, why tho&s;e <HI>Some Such</HI> might not as wel make the re&s;t true; as tho&s;e <HI>ignorant a&s;&s;es &amp; idlebellyed Epicures,</HI> that mai&s;ter Can &s;o oft ca&s;ts in our di&s;h, &s;hould make all the re&s;t fal&s;e, &amp; worthy to be &s;evered from: for the rea|&s;on may pa&s;&s;e as wel for the one as for the other. But I, let that pas, &amp; come a litle neerer home to mai&s;ter Can.</P>
<P>It is a que&s;tion among &s;ome, whither <HI>in truth</HI> be an oath, or no. if it be, I &s;hal hardly ever here after beleeve mai&s;ter Can upon his oath, if not I &s;hal yet hardly beleeve him delivering ought upon his trueth: when binding it &s;o &s;olemnly &amp; &s;eriou&s;y with an <HI>in trueth,</HI> he telleth his reader here &s;uch a palpable untrueth. For where, or how, or in what tearmes either expre&s;&s;e or equivalent there unto. doth mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw inferre, that tho&s;e <HI>Some Such,</HI> yea or <HI>Sundry Such</HI> (for &s;o his words are) either do, or <HI>mu&s;t make all the re&s;t true;</HI> when of the re&s;t he neither &s;pake, nor had need to &s;peake ought? as hath formerly been &s;hewn.</P>
<P>Yea but <HI>his argument els is crack-braind, as he &s;aith of Mai&s;ter John&s;on &amp; lacks not trueth onely, but &s;en&s;e all&s;o.</HI></P>
<P>Nay rather, he that &s;o &s;aith, therein &s;heweth him&s;elfe either to be <HI>crack-braind,</HI> or to have his <HI>braines crow,</HI> and to want as wel trueth as wit. As for his tale ther|efore of <HI>crafty merchants fals wares &amp; deceivable &s;hifts,</HI> he may do wel to Keepe them in &s;tore, for &s;uch fal&s;e forgers &amp; &s;orie &s;hifters, as he here &s;heweth him&s;elfe to be. And yet &s;uch &s;hameles and truthles companions, as make no con&s;cience of coyning fal&s;hoods at plea&s;ure, nor of fa&s;tning groundles calumnys upon others, have the face to cry &amp; call for <HI>more hone&s;t dealing,</HI> even then, when thay deale mo&s;t di&s;hone&s;tly them&s;elves.</P>
<P N="4">4. Yea but mai&s;ter Can <HI>would have maister Bradshaw and the rest of us deale plainly, and tel directly, whether, when we &s;peake indefinitely, we meane &s;ome few, or all.</HI> This is, as if &s;ome pe<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">emptorie &s;hameles per&s;on like himi&s;elfe &s;hould affirme confidently &amp; &s;tand in defence of it, That <HI>All the merchants in England. are men &s;o lewd &amp; vile, that no civill commerce can &s;afely be had with any of them</HI></P>
<PB N="146" REF="75">
<P>And when he &s;hall, to controoll his groundles and &s;landerous cen&s;ures b<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> tolde, by &s;ome friend to the nation and profe&s;&s;ion <HI>(We can &s;et you forth &s;undry of them, again&s;t whome you can take no &s;uch exception, but that they be men of ho|ne&s;t life and carriage, and &s;uch as you &s;ay they all are.</HI> Were it not now idle and impertinent, for &s;uch a &s;hameles bea&s;t, to require the party <HI>to &s;peake plainlie,</HI> &amp; <HI>to &s;ay direct<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">y, whether he meane to ju&s;tify tho&s;e &s;ome few, or all in generall; and to a&s;ke wither tho&s;e few must make all the rest honest?</HI> might he not well be an&s;|wered; <HI>Sir, what is that to the purpo&s;e? So much as hath been &s;aid, is enough to make you a Liar,</HI> and &s;o much being enough to make Mai&s;ter Can the like, we &s;o leave him, and let him go as he is.</P>
<P>And yet we mu&s;t not doe &s;o neither. For he will have one fling more at the cock, for his money, ere he goe; &amp; that he hopeth will hit him fall on the head: and he hath re&s;erved it therefore, like enough, for the la&s;t ca&s;t.</P>
<P>Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw following Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons precedent, frameth his third Rea&s;on for the trueth of our Churches, from our oppo&s;ition to Antichri&s;t, and renunciation of him. To this Mai&s;ter Can an&s;wereth, not by denying any part of the Argument; but by affirming, that <HI>we retain &s;t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">l the &s;elfe &s;ame mini&s;tery</HI> (of <HI>Ma&s;&s;ing prie&s;ts</HI> belike; which had been fitter for him to have oppo&s;ed to the 2. Rea&s;on, if he had been plea&s;ed to return ought to it) <HI>Church government,</HI> (a <HI>Pope</HI> &s;ure, and Cardinals at lea&s;t) <HI>Service,</HI> (the Ma&s;&s;e then que&s;tionles) <HI>Ca|nons,</HI> &amp;c. and &s;o <HI>are like one that calles a woman whore, and yet lies in bed with her, for all that, and committs folly with her.</HI> And if we a&s;ke how he prooveth this; becau&s;e it is no deniall of any part of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws argument, but a fre&s;h charge; he telleth us that &s;ome <HI>papi&s;ts</HI> and <HI>conformists</HI> &s;ay &s;o.</P>
<P>And this is his la&s;t throw, that hath not yet, I hope, come neere the cocks head; though it be no great matter, if notwith&s;tanding that he be &s;uffered to go away with the comb. That which the rather he de&s;erveth, for that, that next follo|weth. For whereas in&s;teed of an&s;were to the rea&s;ons en&s;uing, he &s;aith, <HI>there is nothing &s;aid in them, that the former things again repeated;</HI> therein if he meant to throw at Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw, he mi&s;tooke his marke, but he hitteth his bro|ther Iohn&s;on, whome he &s;hould fight for, full on the hand. For Mai&s;ter Brad|&s;haw doth thus onely, that he may preci&s;ely follow Mai&s;ter John&s;on, and trea|deth exactly in his &s;teps.</P>
<P>Howbeit, one bout more we mu&s;t have with him, concerning &s;ome De|mands of his brother Iohn&s;on; the deciding whereof the &s;aid Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on faith will end the controver&s;ies between them and us.</P>
</DIV3>
</DIV2>
<DIV2 TYPE="part">
<PB N="139" REF="75">
<HEAD>Mai&s;ter Francis Iohn&s;ons Demands.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Whether the Lord Ie&s;us Chri&s;t have by his la&s;t will and te&s;tament given un|to, and &s;et in his Church, &s;ufficient ordinary officers, with their calling, worke, &amp; maintainance, for the admini&s;tration of his holy things, and for the &s;ufficient or|dinar<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e in&s;truction, guidance and &s;ervice of his Church, to the end of the world.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. I an&s;were directly (under&s;tanding by <HI>officers,</HI> &s;pirituall officers) that he hath: and that it is a &s;in herein to breake his will and te&s;tament, e<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ther by depriving the Church of any of tho&s;e officers; or by bringing into it any other kinde, with any other kinde of calling or worke, then he hath appointed in the &s;ame.</P>
<P N="2">2. That notwith&s;tanding this, the civill Magi&s;trate hath power to &s;et over the Churches of Chri&s;t in his dominions commi&s;&s;ioners and over&s;eers, which are not &s;pecially appointed by Chri&s;t in his te&s;tament, civilly to guide and go|verne the Churches, and to maintaine tho&s;e priviledges, libertys, offices and or|ders, that Chri&s;t hath endowed them withall, again&s;t all the Enemys both with|out and within the &s;ame.</P>
<P N="3">3. Concerning the maintainance of the mini&s;ters, Chri&s;t hath &s;et down no more in his te&s;tament, then this in effect; that <HI>the Labourer is worthy of his hire;</HI> And that for their mini&s;tration of &s;pirituall things, the Churches that en|joy their Labours, ought to mini&s;ter to them of theire temporalls. But after what &s;peciall manner they &s;hall be maintained; he hath (for ought appeareth yet to the contrary) either left it to the di&s;cretion of the Churches, if they have the free di&s;po&s;ition of their temporall goods in their own hand; or of the Chri|&s;tian Magi&s;trate; who in &s;uch ca&s;es may &s;ee what is fitter then the Churches them&s;elves.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Whether the offices of Pa&s;tors, Teachers, Elders, Deacons and Helpers be tho&s;e offices appointed by Chri&s;t in his te&s;tament before &s;aid? Or whether the
<PB N="140" REF="76"> pre&s;ent Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall offices of Arch-bi&s;hops, Lord-bi&s;hops, Suffraganes, deane<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">, prebendarys, canons, petty canons, prie&s;ts, deacons, Arch-deacons, doctours of divinity, chaplins, or hou<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e-prie&s;ts, commi&s;&s;arys, officials, proctors, apparitors par&s;ons, vicars, curates, vagrant or mercenary preachers, church-wardens, Side|men, Clarks, &s;extons, &amp; the re&s;t now had in the cathedrall &amp; pari&s;honall a&s;&s;em|blys, be tho&s;e officers appointed by Chri&s;t in his Te&s;tament, as is afore&s;aid, or no?</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. I grant that the offices in the fir&s;t place mentioned are tho&s;e verie offices, wich Chri&s;t hath appointed and there is no Church of Chri&s;t, but hath u&s;e &amp; need of them: and that &s;uch are &s;ome way defective, that want anie one of them.</P>
<P N="2">2. That yet notwith&s;tanding, they may be true Churches, that want &s;ome of them, yea &amp; the chife&s;t of them; as tho&s;e a&s;&s;emblys of your owne profe&s;&s;ion in England have for many yeares been without either all, or the cheife&s;t of them: and yet they judge them&s;elves true Churches; yea though they have not &s;o much as the Sacraments admini&s;tred among them.</P>
<P N="3">3. Where the civil magi&s;trate doth his duty as he ought, &amp; where the Churches have the benefit of his help, for the &s;uppre&s;&s;ing of &s;in, &amp; the relieving of the poore, &amp; tho&s;e that are in any di&s;tres (which the Apo&s;tolical Churches wanted) there the want of &s;ome of the&s;e offices may be the better borne with all &amp; the Church les defective that doth want them, e&s;pecially the two latter.</P>
<P N="4">4. I grant that none of tho&s;e offices here mentioned in the latter part (excep|ting that of Deacons) are in name tho&s;e offices which Chri&s;t hath appointed: &s;ome of them neither in name, nor in deed: &s;ome in deed though not in name: &s;ome have the name of that which indeed they are not: &s;ome, though they be &s;et over the Churches; yet are not indeed any proper offices of the Church, &s;ome offices here named neither indeed nor name, as they are &s;uch, are Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall offices, but onely Schoole titles &amp; dignitys given to men Eminent in Learning, for encouragement to others to &s;tudy good letters, e&s;pecially divinity.</P>
<P N="5"><PB N="141" REF="76">5. All the offices appointed by Chri&s;t to be in his Church, to the end of the world, in effect &amp; &s;ub&s;tance may be found contained under &s;ome of the&s;e; though &s;ome what di&s;gui&s;ed with &s;trange names, borrowed from the Church of Rome. And the principall &amp; mo&s;t nece&s;&s;ary are under &s;ome of the&s;e. For many of the&s;e which you de&s;pitefully call me cenary preachers, hou&s;e-prie&s;ts, yea par&s;ons, vicars, curates, are in very deed &amp; truth, in office and practi&s;e (what&s;oever they are in name) the very pa&s;tors &amp; teachers, that Chri&s;t hath ordained, mini&s;tring in his Churches (according to theire places &amp; callings, &amp; tho&s;e gifts which Chri&s;t hath be&s;towed upon them) all the ordinary means, of Salvation. As for the&s;e variety of names, mo&s;t of them ari&s;e from that variety of maintainance that is in our Churches, and not of their &s;pirituall offices. So that in this manner to di&s;pute again&s;t our Churches; becau<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e the mini&s;ters there|of have &s;uch &amp; &s;uch names, is, as though one &s;hould di&s;pute again&s;t the Church of the Iews in Chri&s;t time, &amp; have denied communion with it, asking whether prie&s;ts, Levites, &amp; prophets, were not tho&s;e officers which God hath appointed, to governe the Church of the Iews with all; or whether Scribes, Phari&s;ees, Sa|duces, Captains of the temple, Rulers of the Synagogues, Doctors of the Law, Centurions, Souldiers, the high prie&s;ts Servants, &amp;c. were tho&s;e officers: Or as if one di&s;puting again&s;t your owne Churches, or tho&s;e which have, (though <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ot &s;o fully, as you would have them) entertained the &s;ame di&s;cipline with you, &s;hould to warrant theire Separation from you, &amp; their condemnation of you as fal&s;e Churches, moove the very &s;ame que&s;tion, in nature, unto you asking <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ou whether pa&s;tors, teachers, Elders, Deacons, &amp; helpers, be not tho&s;e offices which Chri&s;t hath appointed in his Te&s;tament; or whether Schi&s;maticks, refracta<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ys, Lay-aldermen, pari&s;h bi&s;hops, Con&s;i&s;torians, pari&s;h popes, proctors of Spi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">le hau&s;es, dawbers, thackers taylers, tinkers, &amp;c. be tho&s;e officers? for thus it hath plea&s;ed &s;ome to put the&s;e odious names upon tho&s;e, which beare &amp; exerci&s;e the offices of pa&s;tors, teachers, Elders, &amp;c.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Whether the callings &amp; entrance into the Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall offices afore&s;aid, their admini&s;tration &amp; maintainance now had &amp; retained in England, be the
<PB N="142" REF="77"> manner of calling, admini&s;tration and maintenance, which Chri&s;t hath appoin|ted for the offices of the Church above named, or no.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>Not to &s;tand (for the avoyding of multiplicity of unnece&s;&s;arie que&s;tions) upon defence of the calling, entrance, admini&s;tration, and maintenance of all; I an&s;were directly and plainly; That the calling, entrance, admini&s;tra|tion, and maintenance of many (at the lea&s;t) that are called into Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall offices, is in very effect &amp; &s;ub&s;tance, the &s;ame that Chri&s;t hath appointed. They are men in&s;tructed in the knowledge of good letters, e&s;pecially in divinity: They have a gift in &s;ome good mea&s;ure, to divide the word of God, according to the nece&s;&s;itys of their people, over whome they are &s;et. They have a de&s;ire to doe Chri&s;t and his Church &s;ervice in his mini&s;tery, and a purpo&s;e to give them&s;elves over unto that worke. They have in &s;ome good mea&s;ure (for none hath them in perfection) all tho&s;e graces &amp; gifts, that Paul to Timothy requires to be in Bi&s;hops and Elders. They are &s;o judged and e&s;teemed to be of other mini&s;ters, and well grounded Chri&s;tians, and of tho&s;e people which &s;ubmit un|to their mini&s;tery; who accepting of them and theire mini&s;tery as &s;ent of God, de&s;iring and yeelding them&s;elves to live under them, as is fitting for Chri&s;tians; and they re&s;olving to guide and governe them, as becometh &s;pirituall leades &amp; guids.</P>
<P>Such calling and entrance as this, have many of our Church officers: more than this in &s;ub&s;tance and effect is not appointed by Chri&s;t. Tho&s;e defects and errors, which over and be&s;ides, many times they yeeld unto in their calling, en|trance and admini&s;tration, are not of that nature and quality, that they make a nullity thereof, or make it a fal&s;e, and Antichri&s;tian calling, entrance, or admini|&s;tration. The maintainance they live by, as it is no where in generall or &s;peciall forbidden; in the yeelding whereof unto the mini&s;ters, they fulfill the te&s;ta|ment of Chri&s;t, in giving of their temporall things, for &s;pirituall, in giving hire to the Labourers, &amp;c. and doe not therein breake any parts el&s;e thereof; he ha|ving no where forbidden any &s;uch manner of maintainance, but left it indiffe|rent, to give money, or fruits, in fruits to give the twentith, the twelfth, the tenth, the eighth of the encrea&s;e, according either to theire e&s;tate, or the nece&s;&s;i|ty of the mini&s;ters; wherein the Magi&s;trate hath autority to rule &amp; define, who hath in his hand the power of mens temporall e&s;tates; or the Church, if the ma|gi&s;trate
<PB N="143" REF="77"> leave unto them the free u&s;e of their own temporalitys.</P>
<P>Neither is the tenth required to be given by the Magi&s;trate, or yeelded to be given by the Church to the maintainance of mini&s;ters, any more ceremoniall or judiciall in regard of the number, then in regard of the matter.</P>
<P>Neither did there any my&s;tery lie &s;o much in the quantitie of the thing gi|ven, as in the very gift and offering it &s;elfe. So that by the &s;ame rea&s;on, that you make it unlawfull for mini&s;ters to be maintained by Tithes, you make it unlawfull for them to haue any kinde of maintainance from the Church; there having bin a ceremony in the very matter it &s;elfe as much as in the quantity or number. For not onely their giving the tithe of their encrea&s;e, but al&s;o the ve|ry giving of theire encrea&s;e it &s;elfe, out of that con&s;ideration, was ceremo|niall.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Whether every true vi&s;ible Church of Chri&s;t be not a company of people called and &s;eparated out from the world, and the fal&s;e wor&s;hip and ways there|of, by the word of God; and joyned together in fellow&s;hip of the Go&s;pell by voluntary profe&s;&s;ion of the faith and obedience of Je&s;us Chri&s;t.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P>I an&s;were, 1. That every true vi&s;ible Church of Chri&s;t, is &s;uch a people.</P>
<P N="2">2. That yet, notwith&s;tanding they be &s;uch, they may in theire infirmity &amp; ignorance, walke in &s;ome of the ways, and practi&s;e &s;ome parts of the fal<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e wor|&s;hip of the world, notwith&s;tanding theire &s;aid &s;eparation, conjunction and pro|fe&s;&s;ion.</P>
<P N="3">3. They may in time become the true vi&s;ible Churches of Chri&s;t, which at the fir&s;t were not in the &s;aid manner and forme, called, &s;eparated and joyned to|gether; but forced and con&s;trained again&s;t theire will by the &s;wo<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">d of the Ma|gi&s;trate.</P>
<P N="4">4. Many of tho&s;e Churches in our Kingdome, from which you &s;eparate, as they now &s;tand, are &s;uch a company of people, &s;o called, &s;eparated, and joyned together: tho' in all three there may be &s;ome kinde of defects and wants.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Whether the Sacraments, being the Seales of righteou&s;nes which is by faith, may be admini&s;tred unto any other but to the faithfull, and their &s;eed: or in
<PB N="144" REF="78"> any other mini&s;tery, or m<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">nner than is appointed by Ie&s;us Chri&s;t, the apo&s;tle &amp; high-prie&s;t of our profe&s;&s;ion. And whether they be no otherwi&s;e admini&s;tred in our Cathedrall &amp; pari&s;hionall Curches in England.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. I grant that ihe Sacraments ought to be admi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">i&s;t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ed onely to the faithful in outward p<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ofe&s;&s;ion, and theire &s;eed; and in no other mini&s;tery or manner, then is appointed by Chri&s;t.</P>
<P N="2">2. In many of our Church<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s (at the lea&s;t) they are adm<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ni&s;tred in no other manner, from &amp; by no other mini&s;t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">y then Chri&s;t hath appointed; nor to no other per&s;ons.</P>
<P N="3">3. Everie error &amp; defect in &s;ome part of the matter &amp; forme, and mini&s;try, ari&s;ing from ignorance or infirmity, maketh not the Churches fal&s;e Churches: Except you holde; That no true particular Church can erre; which is a more gro&s;&s;e opinion, than that of the Papi&s;ts.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Whether the booke of Common Prayer, with the Fea&s;ts, fa&s;ts, holie dayes, &s;tinted prayers, &amp; Liturgy pre&s;cribed therein, and u&s;ed in the&s;e A&s;&s;emblys, be the true wor&s;hip of God commanded in his word; or the devi&s;e &amp; invention of man, for Gods wo&s;hip &amp; &s;ervice.</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. Tho' it &s;hould be granted, that the b<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">oke of c<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">mmon prayer, in all the parts &amp; parcels thereof, is n<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">t the true wor&s;hip of G<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">d; but containeth in it &s;ome devi&s;es &amp; inventions of man; yet the true wor&s;hip of God not with &s;tan|ding is pre&s;cribed in it.</P>
<P N="2">2. So much of it as is u&s;ed in manie of our Churches, is the true wor&s;hip of God, and in effect commanded in his word.</P>
<P N="3">3. Tho&s;e devi&s;es and inventions of men, with the Fea&s;ts, fa&s;ts, and holy daies therein p<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e&s;cribed, though they &s;hould be granted to be &s;ins &amp; corruptions in our Chu<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ches, and &s;uch as ought not to be conformed unto: and &s;uch as we ought rather to &s;eparate from our Churches, than either by Sub&s;cription, conformity, or
<PB N="145" REF="78"> any other meanes, to approove; yet are they not of that nature, that the &s;imple u&s;e of any or all of them, doth de&s;troy the very being of tho&s;e Churches, which u&s;e them; making them fal&s;e Churches, and &s;uch as we may have no &s;pirituall communion withall, no not in the be&s;t things.</P>
<P><HI>Fr. Iohn&s;on.</HI></P>
<P>Whether all people and Churches, without exception, be not bound in Re|ligion, onely to receive and &s;ubmit unto that min<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;tery, wor&s;hip &amp; order, which Chri&s;t as Lord and King hath given and appointed to his Church. Or whe|ther any may receive and joine unto another devi&s;ed by man for the &s;ervice of God, And con&s;equently, whether they that joyn to the pre&s;ent Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall mini&s;tery, wor&s;hip and order of the Cathedrall and pari&s;hionall a&s;&s;emblys, can be a&s;&s;ured by the word of God, that they joine to the former ordained by Chri&s;t, and not to the latter devi&s;ed by man, even the man of &s;inne, for the wor|&s;hip and &s;ervice of God?</P>
<P><HI>VV. Bradshaw</HI></P>
<P N="1">1. I grant that we are bound in Religion, to doe that which is &s;pecifyed in the fir&s;t part of your que&s;tion.</P>
<P N="2">2. To joyn with our Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall mini&s;tery, wor&s;hip and orders (at lea&s;t in tho&s;e a&s;&s;emblys, whether Cathedrall or other, when and where all things are not performed according to the rigour of our Laws,) is not to joyn with a mini|&s;tery and wor&s;hip devi&s;ed by that man of &s;in; but (though not in all the &s;pecia|litys and formalitys thereof) with &s;uch a mini&s;tery and wor&s;hip, as is required and in&s;tituted of God.</P>
<P N="3">3. They which joyn to the pre&s;ent Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall mini&s;tery, wor&s;hip and order of the Cathedrall or Pari&s;hionall a&s;&s;emblys, in tho&s;e things which are per|formed therein according to the true intent and meaning of our Laws, though &s;ome things be done not warrantable by the word; yet they may be a&s;&s;ured by the word of God, that they joine to the &s;ub&s;tance of that mini&s;tery, wor&s;hip &amp; order, which Chri&s;t as Lord and King hath given and appointed to his Church. At lea&s;t they may be as well a&s;&s;ured thereof by Gods word, as any that join with the pre&s;ent Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall mini&s;terie, wor&s;hip &amp; order of the a&s;&s;emblys of tho&s;e of the Separation, can be a&s;&s;ured by the &s;ame word, that they join to that forme which is ordained by Chri&s;t.</P>
<PB N="146" REF="79">
<P>Now as concerning the&s;e demands, Mai&s;ter Can telleth us, that <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaw undertooke indeed to an&s;were them but he kept him&s;elfe of &s;o covertly from the point, that he hath left them far more ob&s;cure and dark than they were before:</HI> and in &s;teed of them therefore he propoundeth 13. other <HI>que&s;tions</HI> of his owne, <HI>gathered</HI> (as he &s;aith) <HI>from Maister Bradshaws shifting An&s;weres &amp; idle put-ofs.</HI></P>
<P>A pritty <HI>shift</HI> and <HI>put-of</HI> indeed, to &s;ave him&s;elfe labour of taking away Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws An&s;weres; which he knew not well how to turne his hand unto. It &s;eemeth that either hee is not of his brother John&s;ons minde, that <HI>the&s;e demands decided, will,</HI> as he &s;aith, <HI>end the controver&s;ys between us and them;</HI> or he is not over-willing to have them at an end; lea&s;t his &s;chi&s;maticall function end, and expire with them: or la&s;tly he conceiveth, that Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haw hath in h<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s an&s;weres &s;o decided th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">m, that the &s;entence of deci&s;ion goeth on our &s;ide. Now this though hee like not well of, yet is he loath to take the pains to take them away, wh<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ch indeed <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">e <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">either is nor ever wi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">l be able well to performe.</P>
<P>As for h<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s own bakers do&s;en of que&s;tions, let them deale that li&s;t with him. For this is no Scholerly cour&s;e, but boys-plaie, when Demands have been made, and an&s;weres returned to them, not to reply upon the an&s;weres returned there|unto, nor to examine a<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">d &s;can what they &s;ay; but to tell the An&s;werer, that <HI>his An&s;weres are &s;o covert, that they leave things more ob&s;cure and dark, than they were,</HI> and propound other queres in roome of the former, letting the di&s;pute, propounded and &s;o far pro&s;ecuted, fall to the ground.</P>
<P>Thus having run over and examined in defence of Mai&s;ter Brad&s;haws An&s;|were to Mai&s;ter John&s;on, what&s;oever hath by Mai&s;ter Can here been oppo&s;ed thereunto; I conclude at length, as I finde, <HI>Mai&s;ter Cans whole di&s;cour&s;e,</HI> in re|gard of his fond and frivolous manner of rea&s;oning, to be nothing el&s;e but <HI>a Can full of froath;</HI> in regard of his lying and un&s;avoury language, to be not <HI>a Can full of froath</HI> onely, but <HI>of filth</HI> too.</P>
<P>Now if upon view hereof, if it ever be &s;o happy, as to come to Mai&s;ter Cans hand, his fingers &s;hall be itching, as peradventure they will, to be &s;cribling and blotting of paper again, thereby to a&s;&s;ay, what he can, to lick his credits whole again, which by his fond and foule dealing therein de&s;cried and di&s;covered, he may ju&s;tly deeme much impeached and impaired: Let him in the fir&s;t place recant his notorious fal&s;ehoods &amp; forgerys, to every eye obvious; the&s;e by name among the re&s;t.</P>
<P N="1"><PB N="147" REF="79">1. That <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaw doth in this booke &s;tand to maintaine the vil<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;t abominations in our Churches, having formerly made shew to be a great enemy thereunto,</HI> pag. 217.</P>
<P N="2">2. That <HI>&s;uch corruptions as the Non-conformi&s;tes generally have condemned, he ba&s;ely therein justifyeth,</HI> ibi.</P>
<P N="3">3. That <HI>pleadeth for dumb dogs, cater-pillers, and idle-bellys, and is &s;uch a proctour for them as they never had a better.</HI> pag. 221.</P>
<P N="4">4. That <HI>he ju&s;tifieth all &s;uch Priests and Deacons, as the Bishops make, wi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">hout limitation or exception.</HI> pag. 234.</P>
<P N="5">5. That <HI>he &s;aith generally, All the ministers of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys.</HI> pag. 260.</P>
<P N="6">6. That <HI>he inferres, that tho&s;e (&s;ome &s;uch) must make all the re&s;t true.</HI> ibid.</P>
<P N="7">7. That <HI>he &s;clandereth our State, affirming, that it permits our mini&s;ters to be drunckards.</HI> pag. 224.</P>
<P N="8">8. That <HI>he hath from time to time earne&s;tly craved the aid of Princes, to have the ordinary mini&s;tery of our Church-a&s;&s;emblys quite rooted out and aboli|shed.</HI> pag. 221.</P>
<P N="9">9. That <HI>he u&s;eth corrupt shifts to ju&s;tify civill offices in Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall per&s;ons.</HI> pag. 224.</P>
<P N="10">10. That <HI>he labours, what he can, to ju&s;tify the peoples practi&s;e, in commit|ting the charge of a&s;&s;igning them Mini&s;ters to Patrones.</HI> pag. 242.</P>
<P N="11">11. That <HI>he defendeth the reading of the Articles and Canons.</HI> pag. 249.</P>
<P N="12">12. That <HI>he justifieth the practi&s;e of Popish Ceremonys by him&s;elfe con|demned.</HI> pag. 230.</P>
<P N="13">13. That <HI>his Coun&s;ell is much to this effect, &s;o a man holde &s;omething, it is no matter what it be, nor how ungroundedly taken up.</HI> pag. 227.</P>
<P N="14">14. That <HI>by his arguing any heretick may maintaine the gro&s;&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;t errors, that he holdes and practi&s;eth,</HI> pag. 230.</P>
<P N="15">15. That <HI>by this manner of arguing a man may be a Iew, a Turke, a Hea|then, any thing.</HI> pag. 750.</P>
<P N="16">16. That <HI>he be&s;tirs him&s;elfe to proove our mini&s;tery good, by the Scribes &amp; Phari&s;ees.</HI> pag. 231.</P>
<P N="17">17. That <HI>Paraeus on Math.</HI> 23.2. <HI>affirmeth the Scribes and Phari&s;ees to have come rightly and lawfully to the offices they executed.</HI> Ibid.</P>
<P N="18">18. That <HI>Mai&s;ter Bradshaws words import, that the ahility, which the Phari&s;ees had to expound the Law, argued them true mini&s;ters.</HI> pag. 232.</P>
<P N="19"><PB N="148" REF="80">19. That <HI>to that of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;on affirming our mini&s;tery to be unlawfull and Antichri&s;tian, becau&s;e neither theire offices, calling, nor administration is according to Gods word, but all taken from Antichri&s;t; he childishly an&s;wereth, that true pa&s;tors and teachers may want &s;ome acce&s;sory parts of theire offices.</HI> pag. 250.</P>
<P N="20">20. That <HI>he askes, what errors they can proove to be in our Church.</HI> pag. 423.</P>
<P N="21">21. That <HI>he &s;aith, our mini&s;ters have &s;uch and &s;uch offices, becau&s;e by Law th<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">y ou<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ht to have them.</HI> pag. 240.</P>
<P N="22">22. That <HI>he delivereth his yea and nay allwayes upon his owne bare word.</HI> pag. 141.</P>
<P N="23">23. That <HI>he &s;ays the propo&s;ition is fal&s;e, the a&s;&s;umption is fal&s;e, the con&s;e|quent is fal&s;e: but for proofe, a man may as &s;oone finde a needle in a botle of hay, as any, for the things which he boldly denies.</HI> pag. 257.</P>
<P N="24">24. That <HI>he never brings either Scriptures, Examples, Rea&s;ons, or humane Te&s;timoni<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">s, to confirme any one thing whereof he writes.</HI> pag. 235.</P>
<P>The&s;e, I &s;ay, and other the like evident untrueths, let him in the fir&s;t place agnize and revoake, whereby his repentance for them may appeare; and then, (if he think good) in the next place, let him enter his <HI>Surre<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">o<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">nder</HI> in defence of his <HI>reply,</HI> leaving his idle vagarys into points in pertinent to the pre&s;ent bu&s;ines, and applying his di&s;cour&s;e punctually to the Subject matter fi<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;t <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">nten|ded; to wit, <HI>the justification of Mai&s;ter Iohn&s;ons booke again&s;t Maister Brad|shaws An&s;were,</HI> and he &s;hall not want an <HI>An&s;were</HI> to what&s;oever he &s;hall &s;urrejoine to this my <HI>Rejoinder.</HI> Otherwi&s;e, let him for my part, looke to be an&s;wered as Salomon willeth, &s;uch as he &s;heweth him&s;elfe here to be, <HI>Prov.</HI> 26.4. with &s;ilence. For who will endure to maintaine di&s;cour&s;e with one, that by per|&s;i&s;ting in manife&s;t and palpable untrueth, thereby manife&s;tly &s;heweth, that he cares not what he &s;ayes, &s;o it may &s;eeme any way to &s;erve his turne? Or who can have the patience to holde di&s;pute with him, that will by no meanes be kept to the point in pre&s;ent agitation; but run backward and forward, and ramble up and down, without li&s;t or limite, into what he likes or li&s;tes him|&s;elfe?</P>
<P>It is a hard taske, I well know, that I now put Mai&s;ter Can to; and yet no more than equity and rea&s;on requireth. And if the propo&s;itions therefore plea&s;e him not, nor he like to accept of them, let him prate at plea&s;ure, &amp; bawl as loud as he li&s;t, and rave ad raile, as he doth allmo&s;t throughout his whole booke; and
<PB N="149" REF="80"> fa&s;ten as many forged untrueths on this Rejoinder, as he hath done here on Mai|&s;ter Brad&s;haws An&s;were; and crow when he hath &s;o done, as if he had made a faire full and finall conque&s;t, becau&s;e he is not againe an&s;wered; all his cla|mours and calumnys, urgings and darings &s;hall never induce me to &s;et pen to paper againe, and to enter the li&s;ts with &s;uch an one as he is, &s;o per&s;i&s;ting in his folly, untill I &s;hall deeme it fit to vie broade and ba&s;e language with &s;ome com|mon &s;cold, or to contend with a man be&s;ide him&s;elfe.</P>
<P>I pitty onely his poore people, that in Schi&s;maticall Separation are led on by &s;uch a guide, as this very worke of his &s;hews him to be; which beginning with mention of <HI>grace,</HI> and ending with prayer for <HI>&s;incere walking,</HI> he &s;heweth litle <HI>grace</HI> or <HI>&s;incerity</HI> in the whole body and bulk of it. And wi&s;hing them more wi&s;edome to di&s;cerne things that differre, and him more grace and &s;incerity, than here he hath manife&s;ted, I end; having, I hope, &s;ufficiently vindicated in any indifferent &amp; intelligent mans judgement, the credite of my worthy friend, and Gods faithfull &s;ervant, from this mans unju&s;t a&s;per&s;ions; and the &s;oundnes of his An&s;were, from his undue oppo&s;itions; or whether I have &s;o done or no, referring my &s;elfe to the doome and &s;entence of any per&s;on not extreamely partiall.</P>
</DIV2>
<TRAILER>FINIS.</TRAILER>
</DIV1>
</BODY>
</TEXT>
</EEBO>
</ETS>
