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<ETS>
<TEMPHEAD>
<REVDESCR>
<CHANGE>
<DATE>2013-05-22</DATE>
<RESPSTMT>
<NAME>Mona Logarbo</NAME>
<RESP>MURP</RESP>
</RESPSTMT>
<ITEM>Proofed and reviewed as part of batch B120726.pdcc.</ITEM>
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<EEBO>
<IDG S="marc" R="UM" ID="B02682">
<STC T="W">D1368A</STC>
<STC T="C">R175947</STC>
<BIBNO T="oclc">53299045</BIBNO>
<VID>179815</VID>
</IDG>
<TEXT LANG="eng">
<FRONT>
<DIV1 TYPE="title page">
<PB REF="1" MS="y">
<P>A DIALOGUE OR DISCOVRSE betweene a Parliament-man And a Roman-Catholick, <HI>Touching</HI> The pre&s;ent &s;tate of Recu&s;ants in ENGLAND.</P>
<P>And &s;hewing how from time to time they have alwaies Maintained their Religion by Trea&s;on and Con&s;piracies.</P>
<P><FIGURE>
<FIGDESC>printer's or publisher's device</FIGDESC>
</FIGURE></P>
<P>Printed in the yeare 1641.</P>
</DIV1>
</FRONT>
<BODY>
<DIV1 TYPE="dialogue">
<PB REF="2">
<HEAD>A Dialogue or Di&s;cour&s;e be|tweene a Parliament-man and a Roman Catholick.</HEAD>
<SP>
<STAGE>Catholike.</STAGE>
<P>SIR, What are your Senators re&s;olved to ruine all Catho|lickes?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Pro&s;t.</SPEAKER>
<P>We &s;hall proceede again&s;t you according to the Lawes.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Cath.</SPEAKER>
<P>But the Lawes &s;ometimes may be &s;u&s;pended: for when the cau&s;e and motive of the Law doth univer&s;ally cea&s;e, the Law it &s;elfe may be anulled.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Prot.</SPEAKER>
<P>True: but not in our ca&s;e; for the motives, which heretofore induced our Parliaments to enact Statutes again&s;t Recufants, doe &s;till continue, neither are they as yet univer&s;al|ly cea&s;ed. Therefore the neglect of putting them in executi|on is both offencive to God, and dangerous to our State.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Cath.</SPEAKER>
<P>Yet I cannot &s;ee, why the &s;u&s;pention of a rigorous hand, and a charitable moderation of your illimited power over a &s;mall number of poore Catholickes can breede a &s;cruple in your Con&s;cience, on bee offencive to Almighty God, for al|though in your opinion the Religion of Catholicks be fal&s;e, and con&s;equently, that your zeale to the Truth doe urge you to &s;uffer no mi&s;creants among you: yet this zeale being onely grounded upon the literall text of the Scripture, interpreted by your &s;elves, how can you thinke that the explication of this &s;acred authority is &s;o evident, as that hee may ju&s;tly bee puni|&s;hed, who will not adheare to your opinion. But however, may you not in &s;ure charity without offence to God &s;uffer us to live among&s;t you, with intention to bring us to the knowledge of
<PB N="3" REF="2">you deeme to be truth, and &s;o with intention to make us of your Religion: This you &s;ee is the practi&s;e of other Nations, both Catholickes and Prote&s;tants to admitt and to lerate among them &s;uch as profe&s;&s;e a different beliefe from theirs: It is &s;o you know in France, Spaine, Germany, Swevia, Polonia, Mu&s;|covia, Turkey, Per&s;ia, &amp;c. will you onely be more &s;crupulous, then all the Chri&s;tians of Europe, and more &s;evere to your own Country men, then Turkes, and other Heathen Princes?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Prot</SPEAKER>
<P>Could I bee per&s;waded that &s;uch a connivence at Recu|&s;ants were not hurtfull to our pre&s;ent governement, and that the Roman Catholik could be true and loyall &s;ubjects to a Pro|te&s;tant King or Common wealth, I would never give my voyce to have them u&s;ed with rigour and &s;evertity, but you Papi&s;ts are much pemitious to our State. Therefore it is not your Re|ligion, but Trea&s;on that we puni&s;h.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Cath</SPEAKER>
<P>I confe&s;&s;e this &s;everity &s;prung not onely from the mo|tives of State, and Policie, but was much exa&s;perated by the rigorus proceedings of the Court of Rome, and by the factious combinations, and &s;editious plots of &s;ome few bu&s;ie bout feux of the Roman faith. Yet I am confident, that our Religion doth not teach us any thing contrary to the fidelity we owe to our King and Country, though Prote&s;tants, yea even though they per&s;ecute us.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Ptot.</SPEAKER>
<P>But I can tell you, that the va&s;t ambition of the Court of Rome, their continuall practi&s;es &amp; endeavours to con&s;erve &amp; augment their greatne&s;&s;e, and the Popes primacy, &amp; preten|ded authority to create and depo&s;e Kings and, Emperours were able to make us Iealous of you, but I will onely &s;peake of the &s;peciall power, which you generally give him over Hereticall and Schi&s;maticall States and Princes, as our State and King is in your opinion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Cath.</SPEAKER>
<P>In this many wi&s;e and experienced Catholickes doe blame the ambition of the Court of Rome as well as you. And as for the Popes power of creating Kings, there is now no Prince will either expect or de&s;ire creation from him.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Prot.</SPEAKER>
<P>How ever you &s;ee, that our ca&s;e is different from the
<PB N="4" REF="3">ca&s;e of Catholicke Princes, for you &s;ay, that the Pope can de|po&s;e Kings for Here&s;ie, or Schi&s;me: (and this is a generall te|nent among&s;t you) or for joyning in league, and alliance with Prote&s;tant States, nay for notorious vices: and &s;ome of you adde even for in&s;ufficiency; and in all the&s;e ca&s;es the Pope him|&s;elfe mu&s;t be judge. And what Prote&s;tant Prince can be &s;ecure, &s;uppo&s;ing this doctrine be true, and that the Popes party, ei|ther forraigne, or dome&s;ticall, be &s;tronger, then &s;uch a Princes? Do you not hold that the Pope can ab&s;olve the &s;ubjects of &s;uch a King from their allegiance? and hath he not done it here in <HI>England?</HI> Did not his <HI>Nuncio</HI> in <HI>Spaine</HI> &s;olicite for many yeares together, to have an Armado &s;ent again&s;t this Kingdome. And was not this effected at the in&s;tance, and pur&s;uit of your Eng|li&s;h Ie&s;uites, did not <HI>Cardinall Allen</HI> write, and print a &s;editious letter by the Popes command, to &s;tirre up the Papi&s;ts of Eng|land to rebellion? Was not Queene <HI>Elizabeth</HI> excommunica|ted, and depo&s;ed by the Pope? Did not <HI>Dolman</HI> write a Book by the Popes order, to di&s;prove Queen <HI>Elizab.</HI> Title to the crown, and to transferre it upon <HI>Portugall?</HI> The&s;e are your tenents, and your practi&s;es mu&s;t needs follow upon all occa&s;ions; which if &s;ometimes they do not, it is not for want of Principles to make them good in your conceit, but for want of power to put them in execution: and therefore we conclude, that both the Pope and you, do but expect a fit oppertunity to blow up both our King and Parliament, and &s;et up your Religion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Cath.</SPEAKER>
<P>Tho&s;e authors, which you &s;eeme mo&s;t to point at, too too much favouring the Popes authority in temporall affaires, have beene de&s;ervedly condemned by our Catholicke Vniver|&s;ities, and their bookes publiquely burned by the order of Ca|tholicke Magi&s;trates. And for my part I &s;hall not thinke him innocent, or a worthy member of this Common-wealth, that will not acknowledge his faithfull loyalty, and con&s;tant allegi|ance to our King, and countrey, though Prote&s;tants; indepen|dent of all forraigne, or papall authority.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Prot.</SPEAKER>
<P>Why doe you not then at the lea&s;t take the Oath of al|legiance? Though perhaps for the oath of &s;upremacy, there may be &s;ome more difficultie in it.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="5" REF="3">
<SPEAKER>Cath.</SPEAKER>
<P>Sir, if you onely intend to be &s;ecured of our allegiance we &s;hall ea&s;ily agree, but to make us decide a que&s;tion di&s;pu|table in Schooles by &s;wearing an univer&s;all negative, to what effect I pray? For although in my opinion the Pope cannot de|po&s;e any ab&s;olute Prince, though an Hereticke, no not in any ca&s;e of his owne power, or by any authority inherent in his per|&s;on or dignity; nor doe I thinke, that any indifferent man will &s;ay, that the Pope can depo&s;e King <HI>Charles,</HI> that now raigneth, much le&s;&s;e that he can ab&s;olve his Catholike Subjects, from their allegiance due unto him. Wherefore as wi&s;e States-men you ought not to make us &s;weare to this, or that univer&s;all te|nent in points proble, matically di&s;puted by Divines: but to &s;e|cure your &s;elves of our particular allegiances and fidelity to our King, and Countrey, which you may ju&s;tly exact of us, and we as ju&s;tly performe. And for the Oath of Supremacy 'tis a meere folly to imagine, that any &s;ecular, or Lay-men can be &s;upreame of the Church: None of your &s;elves beleive it, nor any Chri&s;ti|an Religion, or &s;ect did ever before <HI>Henry</HI> 8. Profe&s;&s;e &s;uch a te|nent, and Ma&s;ter <HI>Calvin</HI> in his relation, <HI>de Valentiniano, Theodo|&s;io,</HI> and Saint <HI>Ambro&s;io,</HI> &s;trongly oppo&s;ing this fond a&s;&s;ection calls them, who fir&s;t gave this title to <HI>Henry</HI> 8. <HI>Homines incon&s;i|derati</HI> and concludes, <HI>erunt enim Bla&s;pemi, c&ugrave;m vocarent ip&s;um, &s;ummum Eccte&s;iae caput &s;ub Christo.</HI></P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Prot.</SPEAKER>
<P>I could wi&s;h all the papi&s;ts of <HI>England</HI> were of your o|pinion in the point of di&s;po&s;ition, it would then perhaps be bet|ter for them: but the contrary doctrine is more generall a|mong&s;t you, and thence doe follow mo&s;t dangerous &s;equels, and &s;ometimes mo&s;t enormous effects: your Divines tell you, that 'tis lawfull for any Catholicks Subject, to take armes a|gain&s;t his Prince, if he be either an Hereticke, or an open per&s;e|cutor of the Roman Church: nay, that it is no &s;inne to kill him either by private treachery, or publique a&s;&s;aults: and of this we have &s;eene in our age divers lamentable examples practi&s;ed a|broad, and &s;ome mo&s;t execrable attempts here at home.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Cath.</SPEAKER>
<P>Truly Sir, your Divines, as <HI>Luther, Calvin,</HI> and others are more foreward in this point, then any Catholicke I know:
<PB N="6" REF="4">and their practi&s;es have farre exceeded ours; except perhaps the Powder Trea&s;on: but that was Diabolicall beyond mea&s;ure.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Prot.</SPEAKER>
<P>Well, you will never wa&s;h off the infamy of that pow|der-plot; you know what proofes were brought in again&s;t your Ie&s;uites before the Lords Commi&s;&s;ioners at that time.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Cath.</SPEAKER>
<P>Sir, you know I am neither Prie&s;t, nor Ie&s;uite: and I thinke there is never a Catholicke Gentleman in <HI>England,</HI> but doth abhorre and dete&s;t that wicked con&s;piracy, as much as any Prote&s;tant of you all And &s;ure King <HI>Iames</HI> knew well, that this mon&s;ter was hatched in the brea&s;t of &s;ome particular Ca|tholickes; See his Proclamation <HI>November.</HI> 7. His wordes are the&s;e: We are by good experience &s;o well per&s;waded of the loy|altie of divers of our Subjects of the Roman religion, that they doe as much abhorre this dete&s;table con&s;piracy, as we our &s;elves.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Prot.</SPEAKER>
<P>But I could object more di&s;loyalties, if the time would permit, then you can an&s;were too: and the root thereof &s;pring from your &s;eminary Prie&s;ts, who by their power, and authority have a maine &s;way over your con&s;ciences, and under pretence of Religion can bend your pa&s;&s;ions to their owne endes, and de&s;ignes.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Cath.</SPEAKER>
<P>Sir, I confe&s;&s;e &s;ome thinges may be objected in that kind worthy the reflection of a good common-wealths man: but if you be plea&s;ed to u&s;e your clemency towards your poore Catholicke Subjects, and gracio&s;ly to conceive at their &s;ub&s;i|&s;tance: you &s;hall finde them ready to con&s;pire with none, nor aime at their owne temporall good, but by the advancement of your common-wealth, whereof if once you vouch&s;afe to admit them as worthy members, the Popes power &s;hall no way hin|der their obedience to his Maje&s;ty and you.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Prot.</SPEAKER>
<P>I could wi&s;h your Prie&s;ts would do &s;o too, but I &s;ee not how we can expect &s;uch loyalty at their hands, and therefore you &s;ee his Maje&s;ty hath proclaimed their bani&s;hment. And &s;urely if we had &s;uffered the Popes agent to continue here, he would have had a care of his Ma&s;ters intere&s;ts without doubt.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<PB N="7" REF="4">
<SPEAKER>Cath.</SPEAKER>
<P>Sir, how fit it may be to &s;uffer an Agent from the Pope in a State generally Prote&s;tant, intermixed with &s;ome Catholicks, I will not di&s;pute, but for the bani&s;hing of our Prie&s;ts, meerely for exer|ci&s;ing their function, tis in vaine; you may hang them at your plea|&s;ure, but as long as there remaines a Catholicke in <HI>England</HI> there will be Prie&s;ts, becau&s;e we beleeve, that we have an e&s;&s;entiall depen|dance, and nece&s;&s;ity of Prie&s;ts. And therefore Prie&s;ts will venture their lives for the &s;alvation of our Soules: 'Tis, and ever hath beene the &s;pirit of our Church and Religion, when all comes to all, you will finde that a moderate hand over us, is more Chri&s;tian, more hu|maine, and more politick.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Prot.</SPEAKER>
<P>Sir, If you could finde a way how wee might bee &s;ecured of the fidelity of your Prie&s;ts, and that their dependance of Rome, and affection to forraigne &s;tates, were not obnoctious and liable to our ju&s;t &s;u&s;pitions, I could bee content Recu&s;ants lived amon&s;t us, in a civill intelligence, and ordinary friend&s;hip. But you &s;ee wee are &s;o zealous of them, that we have rather permitted &s;trangers &amp; forraign Prie&s;ts to re&s;ide in hir Maje&s;ties Chappell, though with no little danger; for 'tis a wonder, that the more zealous &s;ort of our people have not made &s;ome tummults, and uproares, &s;eeing the Chappell &s;o frequented, as it was: and you know we cannot bee &s;o &s;ecured of any &s;trangers fidelity to our Countrey, e&s;pecially if they be Prie&s;ts, and of a different Religion, and daily frequent both Court and Towne, being imbol<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">ned in that they are not liable to our Lawes; for be&s;ides their zeale to Religion, they are naturally inclined to give notice of what they heare, and favour in what they can, their owne Countries intere&s;ts.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Cath.</SPEAKER>
<P>Truly &s;ir I doubt not but I can clearely &s;how you, how you may be &s;ecured of the loyally of &s;ome of our Engl&s;h Prie&s;t, and how their dependance of Rome may bee of that nature, as &s;hall give you no ju&s;t occa&s;ion of &s;u&s;pition, and therefore might bee admit|ted upon tho&s;e termes and conditions, as would bani&s;h all &s;u&s;pition, and prevent all dangers. A<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter"> for her Maje&s;ties Chappell, trie the Ar|ticles of her marriage, agreed upon betwixe the two States, ratified under the broad Seale of each Kingdome, &amp; it would be again&s;t the law of Nations, and unworthy the fidelity of a Chri&s;tian Prince to
<PB N="8" REF="5">infringe, and violate &s;uch a publique contract, alas Sir, con&s;ider that now while&s;t you happily are &s;itting at the &s;terne of the Common-wealth, and piou&s;ly endeavouring to reforme the corruptions, and abu&s;es of our Courts, and government, as al&s;o re&s;pectively &s;eeking to vindicate the ancient liberty of our Countrey, &s;hall we only your poore Catholicke Subjects be excluded from this generall Iubilee; take then &s;ome moderate cour&s;e to &s;ecure your &s;elves of our allegi|ance: and let us all con&s;pire to make one Civill Body, that joyned, and united both in your dome&s;ticke intere&s;ts, and in your forraigne leagues and warres we may (as your Catholicke Allies doe) engage our &s;elves as willingly, and as farre as you, Did not King <HI>Iames</HI> &s;ay well; a too &s;evere per&s;ecution makes men de&s;perate? <HI>Non coercet, &s;ed provocat violentia.</HI> Clemency begets love, love breeds loyalty.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Prot.</SPEAKER>
<P>If the&s;e your tenents were common to all Papi&s;ts, I conceive you would finde us more indulgent. Therefore me thinkes it were worthy your labour to draw &s;uch a Proclamation of your fidelity, as you thinke Papi&s;ts might lawfully take, and as would perhaps con|tent our Parliament.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Cath.</SPEAKER>
<P>Sir, I framed the la&s;t Winter p ivately to my &s;elfe a &s;hort petition in the behalfe of Catholickes, and have &s;ince added there|unto &s;uch a Prote&s;tation as you &s;peake of; here they are peru&s;e them I pray, and if you thinke fit, make your mederate friends pertakers of them, whom if they &s;atisfie, I &s;hall be heartily glad, if nothing will &s;erve but our totall ruine, Gods will be done, at lea&s;t it will be a com|fort to have given this te&s;timony of our allegiance, and fidelity; &s;o that if we peri&s;h, it mu&s;t needs be for our religion, &s;ince the pa&s;t crimes of &s;ome few, and the di&s;putable opinions of others can ne|ver be a legall warrant to condemne the innocent: the next time we meete, you will tell me more, in the interim God be with you.</P>
</SP>
<TRAILER>FINIS.</TRAILER>
<PB REF="5">
</DIV1>
</BODY>
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