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<DATE>2011-12-29</DATE>
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<NAME>Alexis Jakobson</NAME>
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<FRONT>
<DIV1 TYPE="title page">
<PB REF="1" MS="y">
<P>SOME OBSERVATIONS AND ANNOTATIONS Upon the <HI>Apologeticall Narration,</HI> Humbly &s;ubmitted to the Honour|able HOUSES of PARLIAMENT; The mo&s;t Reverend and Learned DIVINES OF THE ASSEMBLY, And all the <HI>Prote&s;tant Churches</HI> here in this I&s;land, and abroad.</P>
<P><HI>LONDON,</HI> Printed for <HI>Chri&s;topher Meredith,</HI> and are to be &s;old in <HI>Pauls</HI> Church-yard at the &s;ign of the Crane. 1643.</P>
</DIV1>
<DIV1 TYPE="dedication">
<PB REF="2">
<PB REF="2">
<HEAD>TO The Right Reverend, and Learned DIVINES, THE AUTHORS OF THE <HI>Apologeticall Narration.</HI></HEAD>
<OPENER><SALUTE>Right Reverend and dear Brethren,</SALUTE></OPENER>
<P>_THE high e&s;teem I have ever had of your Per&s;ons, and the great holine&s;&s;e of your lives (de&s;iring ever to be &s;uch my &s;elf, as I e&s;teem you to be, except onely in your particular opinions, wherein ye di&s;&s;ent from all Prote&s;tant, yea, all Chri&s;tian Churches in this World) had almo&s;t hindered me, from the publi&s;hing of the&s;e Con&s;iderations upon your <HI>Apologeticall Narra|tion;</HI> e&s;teeming, That it was not for any particular man, &s;uch as I am, to oppo&s;e him&s;elf to &s;uch a number of grave Divines, of &s;o great learning, and &s;o apparent Pietie: But on the other part, con&s;idering, that you, as my &s;elf, are but men, &s;ubject to humane frailtie, that ye know but in part, and con|&s;equently
<PB REF="3">may erre in part, I thought, that this, which is in que&s;tion betwixt you, and all the Churches in the Chri&s;tian World, might be a part of your aberration in part, and of that which we know in part; And upon this con&s;ideration, e&s;teemed it no le&s;&s;e a part of my dutie, and Chri&s;tian libertie, as a man, to oppo&s;e my &s;elf to five men, then for five men to oppo&s;e them&s;elves to the common opinion of five hundred thou&s;and, to &s;o many learned, &s;o many holy Divines, hun|dreds, and thou&s;ands for one of you, no wayes inferiour to the learned&s;t, and be&s;t among&s;t you; And not onely to particular men, and Divines, but to &s;o many, yea and tho&s;e the mo&s;t pure, and mo&s;t Reformed Churches of the World, among&s;t whom there have been found &s;o many thou&s;ands who have &s;ealed Chri&s;ts Truth with the lo&s;&s;e of their goods, impri&s;on|ment of their bodies, by the exile of their Per&s;ons, yea, with their deare&s;t blood, and lievs, who if they wrought not miracles, at the lea&s;t God declared his Almighty Power in working miracles about them, and upholding them; (Men of &s;o great worth, that the world was not worthy of them: And how&s;oever the&s;e Motives be great, yet wrought they not &s;o much upon me as this, That I am per&s;waded in my con&s;cience, that your opinion of Independency, <HI>&amp;c.</HI> if it were admitted (pardon my expre&s;sion till I be better in&s;truct|ed by you, or &s;ome others) could not but prove the root of all &s;ort of Schi&s;me, and Here&s;ie, and con&s;equently the utter overthrow of Chri&s;ts Univer&s;all Militant Church here upon Earth. Be&s;ides all the&s;e con&s;iderations, I had many more, and among&s;t the re&s;t, your hard expre&s;sions again&s;t them that love, and pity you, your apparent re&s;olution in de&s;iring a <HI>Toleration</HI> of your Religion, and con&s;equently of a Sepa|ration from our Churches, which how&s;oever they have power to hinder you, yet conde&s;cend to be &s;uppliants to you, that you will entertain union, and communion with them. I may adde
<PB REF="3">to all the&s;e your undervaluing of the Parliaments great Fa|vours towards you; for ye know, Brethren, how they (not|with&s;tanding all this, and your former Separation from all other Christian Churches) having taken to heart your hard u&s;age in tho&s;e evill times ye &s;peak of, (how&s;oever in re&s;pect of your number ye be very few, yea hardly the hundreth part, yea not &s;o much as one part of the Divines of this Kingdom, in re&s;pect of your Separation) invited you mo&s;t lovingly to be Members of this pre&s;ent A&s;&s;embly of the mo&s;t learned, holy, and reverend Divines of both Kingdoms; whereof, had not they given you the capacity, ye had been altogether incapable: And not onely that, but al&s;o having re&s;olved to &s;end two Divines from hence with their Commi&s;|&s;ioners to <HI>Scotland,</HI> they honoured one of you with this high favour (the greate&s;t they could confer upon you at that time) and &s;o in effect did honour you with the half of the honour, which belonged to all the Divines of the Kingdom; And yet notwith&s;tanding all the&s;e great te&s;tifications of &s;o great, and tender affections towards you, ye five men, five Members of the A&s;&s;embly, (by who&s;e Coun&s;ell, and In&s;tigation, or up|on what Motives we know not) joyned your &s;elves in a parti|cular <HI>Combination,</HI> without the knowledge of either Par|liament or A&s;&s;embly, to draw up and publi&s;h unto the World an <HI>Apologeticall Narration,</HI> as ye terme it, containing in effect, (how&s;oever ye name it) a &s;ingular de&s;ire of Separa|tion from them, that &s;o cheri&s;h you, with &s;ome unworthy Nick-names, ye put upon them, who &s;tile you by no wor&s;e names, then Brethren. By &s;uch proceedings, what el&s;e have ye done, but erected an A&s;&s;embly in the A&s;&s;embly, a parti|cular A&s;&s;embly in a publike A&s;&s;embly, by private Authority again&s;t publike Authority, taking private Re&s;olutions again&s;t all publike Re&s;olutions, what&s;oever might be concluded ei|ther in Parliament, or A&s;&s;embly; and in one word, an A&s;&s;em|bly
<PB REF="4">to overthrow the A&s;&s;embly? The&s;e rea&s;ons joyned together with &s;undry others, made me to think more then I &s;ay, and to &s;u&s;pect that ye would &s;ay more then ye &s;ay. And therefore, laying all particular affections a&s;ide, I re&s;olved my &s;elf to publi&s;h the&s;e following <HI>Con&s;iderations,</HI> and <HI>Annotations</HI> upon this your <HI>Apologeticall Narration;</HI> which truely I do not out of any &s;pleen again&s;t you (God knows it) for never one of you, ever offended me; yea, I may &s;ay, that I love you all from my heart, and that in writing of this, my &s;oul is, as it were, rent in two parts, my under&s;tanding carrying it one way, and my will another; Chri&s;ts verity forcing the one, and your &s;ingular piety alluring the other: But I mu&s;t conclude, That it is better to follow God then man, what ever he be, or may appear to be; and that the will, that is but a blinde facultie, mu&s;t let it &s;elf be led by the light of the under&s;tanding, which is the eye of the &s;oul. And as I write not out of &s;pleen, &s;o may I atte&s;t him, who &s;eeth all things, that I do it not to gain any mans affection, or favour, much le&s;&s;e in hope of any other worldly ends; and that if I did it to gain any mans love, or friend&s;hip, I am as much de&s;irous of yours, as any others: No &s;uch ends moved me: But if I have any knowledge of my &s;elf at this pre&s;ent, at the writing of this An&s;wer (which yet I know is not &s;uch as it &s;hould be) I may &s;ay, That my main aym has been Gods glory, and the edification of weak Brethren, who may have been mi&s;led by your mo&s;t learned Di&s;cour&s;e; e&s;teeming, that during the re&s;t of my Pilgrimage, which cannot be long, having no other thing to do, I &s;hall do well to do this, and &s;o improve my Talent to his glory, the Edification of his Church, and the Salvation of my own Soul, and &s;o I remain</P>
<CLOSER><SIGNED>Your very loving Brother in Chri&s;t, <HI>A. S.</HI></SIGNED></CLOSER>
</DIV1>
</FRONT>
<BODY>
<DIV1 TYPE="text">
<PB N="1" REF="4">
<HEAD>Some Generall CONSIDERATIONS Upon the <HI>Apologeticall Narration.</HI></HEAD>
<DIV2 N="1" TYPE="consideration">
<HEAD>I.</HEAD>
<P>_WHether in any Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall or Politicall A&s;&s;embly of the Chri&s;tian World, where|in things are carried by plurality of voices, it be ordinary for any incon&s;ider|able number thereof, to joyn in a parti|cular combination among them&s;elves; and therein to take particular re&s;oluti|ons, to publi&s;h them unto the world; and &s;o to anticipate upon the re&s;olutions of the whole A&s;&s;embly.</P>
</DIV2>
<DIV2 N="2" TYPE="consideration">
<HEAD>II.</HEAD>
<P>Whether in taking &s;uch re&s;olutions, they &s;hould not con&s;equent|ly re&s;olve them&s;elves to quit the A&s;&s;embly, and to appear as Par|ties? And if any man or men &s;hould do &s;o, either in this Parlia|ment, or this A&s;&s;embly; if a connivence at &s;uch a matter &s;hould not be reputed for an act of great favour, love, and extraordinary tender affection towards them?</P>
</DIV2>
<DIV2 N="3" TYPE="consideration">
<PB N="2" REF="5">
<HEAD>III.</HEAD>
<P>Whether &s;uch an incon&s;iderable member, in &s;o doing, may not be refu&s;ed by the parties, as incompetent Judges.</P>
</DIV2>
<DIV2 N="4" TYPE="consideration">
<HEAD>IIII.</HEAD>
<P><HI>Whether this</HI> Apologeticall Narration <HI>was nece&s;&s;ary, when ye</HI> found the calumnies, mi&s;takes, mi&s;apprehen&s;ions of your opi|nions, and mi&s;ts, that had gathered about you, or were rather ca&s;t upon your per&s;ons, in your ab&s;ence, begin by your pre&s;ence again, and the ble&s;&s;ing of God upon you, to &s;catter and vani&s;h, without &s;peaking a word for your &s;elves or cau&s;e? <HI>And if the honour the Parliament &s;hewed you, in calling you to be Members of the A&s;&s;embly, was not &s;ufficient enough, to ju&s;tifie your per&s;ons from all &s;ort of asper&s;ions and calumnies, without any Apology? Whether after the di&s;&s;ipation of &s;uch Clouds, and &s;uch a ju&s;tification, this Apology was rather nece&s;&s;ary, then before, when ye were under the cloud, and not ju&s;tified?</HI></P>
</DIV2>
<DIV2 N="5" TYPE="consideration">
<HEAD>V.</HEAD>
<P>Whether this your <HI>Apologeticall Narration,</HI> wherein ye blame all Prote&s;tant Churshes, as not having <HI>the power of godline&s;&s;e, and the profe&s;&s;ion thereof, with difference from carnall and formall Chri&s;tians, advanced and held forth among them,</HI> as among you, be &s;ea&s;onable, when the Church of God and this Kingdom &s;tand in need of their Brotherly A&s;&s;i&s;tance; and par|ticularly of that of the Scots (again&s;t whom it is commonly thought to be particularly intended) who at this very time &s;o un|&s;ea&s;onable, according to their duty, hazard their Lives and E&s;tates for Gods Church, all this Kingdom, and you al&s;o?</P>
</DIV2>
<DIV2 N="6" TYPE="consideration">
<HEAD>VI.</HEAD>
<P>Whether (as it is ob&s;erved by &s;undry men of learning, and as ye have noted your &s;elves) ye &s;hould not have done better, to have &s;it down your opinions by way of The&s;es, and &s;o manife&s;ted unto us, wherein ye agree, or di&s;agree with us, or from us? the Browni&s;ts, Anabaptists, and the&s;e whom ye pretend to hold the &s;ame Tenets with you, in old and new <HI>England,</HI> and the Netherlands, then in a Rhetoricall and Oratorius way, endeavour in the mo&s;t part of your Book, to publi&s;h your great Sufferings, and extraordinary Piety, and &s;o to move us all to compa&s;&s;ion, and ravi&s;h us into admiration, as if ye meant rather to per&s;wade, then to prove them?</P>
</DIV2>
<DIV2 N="7" TYPE="consideration">
<PB N="3" REF="5">
<HEAD>VII.</HEAD>
<P>Many al&s;o are very de&s;irous to know, whether this <HI>Apologe|ticall Narration</HI> publi&s;hed by you five alone, be publi&s;hed in the name of you five alone, or of all tho&s;e al&s;o, or apart of tho&s;e, whom ye pretend to hold your Tenets? to the end we may know in what e&s;teem to have it. And if in the name of you five onely, the Pen|ners and Contrivers thereof; Whether ye five can arrogate a power unto your &s;elves, to maintain the&s;e Tenets, as the con&s;tant opinion of all your Churches, having no generall Confe&s;&s;ion of their Faith thereabout? If in the name of all the re&s;t, we de&s;ire ye would &s;hew your Commi&s;&s;ion from all your Churches, by what authoritie ye do it? Or if ye do it without Commi&s;&s;ion and Authoritie from them, if that be not to a&s;&s;ume unto your &s;elves a greater <HI>Authoritative power,</HI> then that ye call Presbyteriall? yea, then ever was the Epi&s;copall?</P>
</DIV2>
<DIV2 N="8" TYPE="consideration">
<HEAD>VIII.</HEAD>
<P>It were al&s;o not ami&s;&s;e ye &s;hould declare, Whether ye de&s;ire a Toleration for you five alone in your Religion, or for all the re&s;t? <HI>Item,</HI> If a Toleration in publike, in erecting of Churches apart? or to live quietly without troubling of the State? as for the last, appearingly, ye may have it un&s;ought; but for the re&s;t, the Parlia|ment is wi&s;e enough, and knoweth what is convenient for the Church of God and the State.</P>
</DIV2>
<DIV2 N="9" TYPE="consideration">
<HEAD>IX.</HEAD>
<P>And becau&s;e your whole draught of this Book tends evermore unto a <HI>Toleration,</HI> and con&s;equently unto &s;ome Separation; I would willingly know of you? What things are to be tolerated, or not tolerated in Religion? not in private per&s;ons, but in Con&s;e|ciations? And particularly, when the whole Kingdom is joyned in one Religion? What &s;ort of new Con&s;ociations of divers Reli|gions, it may in good con&s;cience tolerate and receive into it? <HI>Item,</HI> &V;pon what ground Churches may, in good con&s;cience, make Sepa|ration from other Churches, that de&s;ire &V;nion and Communion with them? Whether they that aym at a Toleration and Separa|tion, be not rather bound to tolerate &s;ome &s;mall pretended defects, not approved by tho&s;e from whom they de&s;ire to &s;eparate them&s;elves; (and especially, when they that are &s;o de&s;irous of Separation, are not pre&s;&s;ed to be Actors in any thing again&s;t their con&s;cience) then to
<PB N="4" REF="6">&s;eparate them&s;elves from a Church, that te&s;tifies a great de&s;ire to reforme the defects, pretended to be in it? Whether it were not better for them, that aym at Toleration and Separation, to &s;tay in the Church, and to joyn all their endeavours with their Brethren, to reforme abu&s;es, then by Separation to let the Church of God peri&s;h in abu&s;es? Whether they do not better, that &s;tay in the Church to reforme it, when it may be reformed, then who quit it, for fear to be deformed in it?</P>
</DIV2>
</DIV1>
<DIV1 TYPE="annotations">
<HEAD>ANNOTATIONS Upon the INSCRIPTION Of this BOOK</HEAD>
<HEAD TYPE="sub">[An Apologeticall Narration.]</HEAD>
<P>_ALL Apologies pre&s;uppo&s;e &s;ome Accu&s;ation, which here appears none; or if it be intended, as an Apo|logeticall an&s;wer to what hath been written a|gain&s;t your Opinions; it comes very &s;hort, weak, and &s;lender, and no way &s;atisfactory to their Arguments.</P>
<P>Neither is it a meer Apologeticall Narration, but al&s;o a grievous Accu&s;ation again&s;t all our Churches, as de&s;titute of the power of godline&s;&s;e, <HI>&amp;c.</HI> So it is a mi&s;take in the very Title of the Book, which is either untrue, or inadoequate to the &s;ubject whereof it treateth.</P>
<P><HI>[Humbly &s;ubmitted]</HI> So humbly &s;ubmitted <HI>to the honour|able Hou&s;es of Parliament,</HI> as if they &s;ubmit not them&s;elves to your de&s;ires, in granting you a Toleration (for any thing I can &s;ee) ye &s;eem no wayes minded to &s;ubmit your &s;elves to theirs. It &s;eems al&s;o very probable, That being Divines, ye &s;hould rather fir&s;t have con&s;ulted with the A&s;&s;embly of Divines, your Brethren, then &s;o <HI>ex abrupto,</HI> gone to the Civill Magi&s;trate,
<PB N="5" REF="6">that arrogates not to him&s;elf, any directive power in matters of Religion: This &s;hould have te&s;tified more Brotherly and Chri&s;tian Charitie, then here it does of politicall humilitie: And it is more convenient to the &s;pirit and power of godline&s;&s;e; that the &s;pirit of Prophets, in &s;uch matters, &s;hould be &s;ubject unto Prophets, then unto the &s;pirit of the Civill Magi&s;trate; who, for this effect, hath convocate an A&s;&s;embly of Prophets, and would not undertake it him&s;elf. So this is a &s;ubmi&s;&s;ion, That this <HI>mo&s;t ju&s;t and &s;evere Tribunall, and mo&s;t Sacred refuge, and A&s;ylum of mi&s;-judged innocence,</HI> requireth not of you.</P>
<P><HI>[By Thomas Goodwin, &amp;c.]</HI> We have hereupon already expre&s;&s;ed in the Epi&s;tle, and in our &s;eventh ob&s;ervation, what many Learned and good men de&s;ire, and what may be their judgement hereupon about you five.</P>
<P><HI>Pag.</HI> 1. <HI>Now Members of the A&s;&s;embly of Divines]</HI> and this al&s;o we have touched in our Epi&s;tle, and upon <HI>[humbly &s;ub|mitted.]</HI></P>
<DIV2 TYPE="notes">
<HEAD>Notes upon the fir&s;t Page.</HEAD>
<P>Sect. <HI>1.</HI></P>
<P><HI>O&V;r ears, &amp;c.</HI>] Here beginneth this Apologeticall Narra|tion; which, from this unto the ninth Section, Page the fifth, hath little or nothing materiall, touching the que&s;tions in controver&s;ie betwixt our Brethren and us: Onely it con|taineth a Narration of their godly wayes, whereupon they have never been challenged by their Brethren, that ever I could hear of.</P>
<P><HI>[filled with exclamations]</HI> What can be the&s;e exclamations or exclamators, we know not, and therefore an&s;wers not.</P>
<P><HI>Sect.</HI> 2. <HI>And now, &amp;c.</HI>] It may &s;eem very probable to rea|&s;onable men, 1. That it &s;hould have been more &s;ea&s;onable, <HI>To have made this appearance into publike light,</HI> before your entrance into the A&s;&s;embly, then &s;o many Moneths after. 2. Before your Brethren, in &s;ubmitting your &s;pirit of Prophets unto that of
<PB N="6" REF="7">the whole A&s;&s;embly, then in this extraordinary way, unpara|lelled by any like unto it in the world. 3. To have &s;ought of them a Te&s;timony, then after this way, to take it at your own hand, and give it unto your &s;elves.</P>
<P><HI>[lain under &s;o dark a cloud]</HI> Ye avow hereafter, that it is vani&s;hed away; &s;o ye lo&s;e your pains, in taking away a cloud, that is no more: See our fourth ob&s;ervation.</P>
<P><HI>[The Supreme Judicatory, &s;evere Tribunall, the mo&s;t Sacred Refuge, and A&s;ylum for mi&s;taken, and mi&s;-judged innocence.]</HI> The Parliament indeed is all this, in civill cau&s;es, but it pretends no <HI>directive power in matters of Religion, by teaching, or preaching, or judging of controver&s;ies of Religion;</HI> nor any <HI>executive power, that is intrin&s;ecall unto the Church,</HI> as in the Vocation, Depo&s;iti|on, and Su&s;pen&s;ion of Mini&s;ters, in Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Cen&s;ures, in Excommunication, <HI>&amp;c.</HI> which are meerly &s;pirituall; but onely an <HI>executive, coercitive, and externall power; which is not in, but about the Church, and for the Church,</HI> whereby it compelleth refractory men to obey the Church: And this authoritie belongs actually, and in effect, in <HI>actu exercito</HI> (as they &s;ay) <HI>&amp; jure in re,</HI> to true Chri&s;tian Magi&s;trates; but to others po|tentially, <HI>in actu &s;ignate,</HI> and <HI>jure in rem</HI> onely, till they become true Chri&s;tians. In vertue of this Authority, when Parties pre|tend to be offended by the Church, or if the Church judge any thing ami&s;&s;e, he may command the Church to revi&s;e and re|examine its judgement, and to reforme it, if it containeth any thing ami&s;&s;e. And in this &s;en&s;e, <HI>Con&s;tantine</HI> the Great, refu&s;ing an unju&s;t and exorbitant power, that the Coun&s;ell gave to him, &s;aid very wi&s;ely; <HI>Vos in Eccle&s;&s;a, ego extra Eccle&s;iam Epi&s;copus,</HI> For he was no Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Mini&s;ter, Over&s;eer, or Controller, but Gods Mini&s;ter in the State, for the weal of his Church in the State; which was not formally of the State, how&s;oever materially it was in the State: Wherefore if your meaning here be, That the Parliament &s;hould judge of the que&s;tions in debate, betwixt you and your Brethren; ye go a|gain&s;t the Parliaments intention, which e&s;teeming it &s;elf, to have no calling of God thereunto, very wi&s;ely did convocate an A&s;&s;embly of Divines to that effect: Neither beleeve I, that ye will grant unto it and the A&s;&s;embly both, &s;uch an authority;
<PB N="7" REF="7">or if ye grant it, I doubt, if ye will &s;ubmit your &s;elves unto it: And indeed, to grant them &s;uch a power, were nothing el&s;e, but to joyn your &s;elves with the Arminians, who granted it to the Civill Magi&s;trate, when they thought to have had him for them; and afterwards repented them&s;elves, when they found him again&s;t them.</P>
<P><HI>Sect.</HI> 3. <HI>Pag.</HI> 2. <HI>[The mo&s;t, &amp;c.]</HI> To this Paragraph I have nothing to &s;ay, but that it is the judgement of many very judi|cious and godly Divines, That a Pa&s;tour is bound to &s;tay with his Flock, &s;o long as he is not pre&s;&s;ed to be an Actor in any thing again&s;t his con&s;cience; which many good men have done in this Kingdom, and in &s;o doing upheld many others.</P>
<P><HI>Sect.</HI> 4. <HI>Pag.</HI> 2. <HI>[Neither, &amp;c.]</HI> Here I note two things. 1. Ye call other Churches, your Neighbour Churches; if &s;o, they are your &s;i&s;ter Churches; And then how is it, That ye will not admit all the Members of their Churches, unto your Communion, at the Table of the Lord? Will ye, or dare ye, communicate with them, or not? If ye dare, how dare ye not admit them all unto your Communion? If ye dare not, how can ye hold them for Brethren, with whom ye dare not eat or drink, at that &s;pirituall Fea&s;t of Brotherly Love and Charity? 2. Ye tell us, That for fear of violence and per&s;ecution, ye made choice of a voluntary exile. If this be &s;aid to excu&s;e your departure, I have nothing to &s;ay; But if it be to blame them, that notwith&s;tanding all per&s;ecution, remained in their &s;tations, I remit the Reader to the third Section: onely I adde this, That they, who notwith&s;tanding their per&s;onall per&s;ecutions re|mained in their Stations, in confirming others, are no le&s;&s;e to be commended then ye: Neither is the Souldier le&s;&s;e valourous, that &s;tandeth by his Colours, fighting con&s;tantly, and courage|ou&s;ly to death, then he that leaveth them, flying away, upon any imminent danger what&s;oever, whatever his affection be unto the cau&s;e: And if they all had fled away, what might have become of the poor Church of God in this Kingdom? it might been, that ere now, <HI>Impius haec tam culta novalia miles haberet, Barbarus has &s;egetes.</HI> Prai&s;ed be God, that it plea|&s;ed him in his mercy to uphold tho&s;e men in the&s;e dangers, that they might be a means of upholding the Members of his Church
<PB N="8" REF="8">here. Yea, who knoweth, if in &s;uch corrupt times, many things were not rather to have been tolerated, which then could not be amended, then their Stations to have been de&s;erted, &s;o they had not been Actors in ill doing? Neither was the <HI>watchful|ne&s;&s;e</HI> of tho&s;e <HI>times</HI> &s;o great, but that many good men might enjoy, and enjoyed in effect the Ordinances of Chri&s;t. And howbeit it had been &s;o; yet was it not nece&s;&s;ary therefore to make a Schi&s;me, in quiting the Communion of all other Churches abroad. Many Divines hold al&s;o, That the Mini&s;ter of Chri&s;t ought not to fly away for his <HI>per&s;onall per&s;ecution,</HI> but for that onely <HI>of his flock.</HI></P>
<P><HI>Sect.</HI> 5. <HI>pag.</HI> 3. <HI>[This being, &amp;c.]</HI> In this and the next Secti|on, ye &s;eem to come to the que&s;tion in controver&s;ie, <HI>viz.</HI> Unto Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Government; but it containeth nothing pro|bative of your opinion, but onely narrative of your <HI>enquiry,</HI> and holy proceedings therein; which ye willingly de&s;ire to per|&s;wade, that it has been the mo&s;t holy that could be found by <HI>fle&s;h and blood, in any juncture of time that may fall out,</HI> as want|ing no helps that could further it, and having no impediments that could hinder it. Your helps were fir&s;t, Gods Word; Se|condly, The Di&s;cipline of the Reformed Churches; Thirdly, That of the Non-Conformi&s;ts; Fourthly, That of <HI>New-Eng|land;</HI> Fifthly, The example and pre&s;ident of the Shipwrack of the Browni&s;ts; Sixthly, The rea&s;on ye had to be true to your con&s;ciences. The impediments or hinderances ye could have, were, fir&s;t worldly temptations; &s;econdly, aymes; third|ly, education; fourthly, engagement to other Churches, from which all ye were free. But this Enumeration is imperfect; for the grace of God which is the principall help, without which we can do nothing, is here omitted. But let us examine them all according to the order that ye have &s;et them down.</P>
<P><HI>[We lookt upon the Word of Chri&s;t, as impartially, and unpre|judicedly, as men made of fle&s;h and blood are like to do in any jun|cture of time, that may fall out.]</HI> This is much: As for us Brethren, being but men made of fle&s;h and blood; we know that we know but in part; that we do but in part the good, we have power to do; for we have power to do more good
<PB N="9" REF="8">then we do, that we may omit much evill, that we do; that of both we know very little, in re&s;pect of that we know not, <HI>For the heart of man is deceitfull, and who can know it:</HI> And as for others, we know much le&s;&s;e then of our &s;elves, not know|ing their hearts, temptations, ayms, intentions, or their &s;ins, repentance, back&s;lidings, their falls, or upri&s;ing; but lea&s;t of all of men po&s;&s;ible in <HI>junctures of time to come, that God can create;</HI> for what know ye or we, Brethren, what may be? And therefore, we dare not be &s;o bold, as to compare our &s;elves with others in time pre&s;ent; much le&s;&s;e with tho&s;e that be po&s;|&s;ible <HI>in junctures of time to come,</HI> in e&s;teeming our &s;elves as good, or better, then they may be: And therefore, I e&s;teem that your compari&s;on proceedeth rather of fle&s;h and blood, then of the &s;pirit of God. We wi&s;h indeed, we were the be&s;t of all men, but we e&s;teem not our &s;elves the be&s;t; Oh, that we might be but in the number of good men. We wi&s;h, we could &s;ay as much as ye; but again, we dare not, being con&s;cious of our own infirmitie, that we are but fle&s;h and blood.</P>
<P>But ye &s;eem to prove it, by removing of hinderances, as fir&s;t, <HI>Of Temptations of the place ye went unto, your condition and company, which left you as freely to be guided by Gods Word, as the Needle toucht with the Loadstone is in the compa&s;&s;e.</HI></P>
<P>But this is an imperfect Enumeration of Temptations: It containeth onely &s;ome externall, and yet not all, as tho&s;e, that proceed from the Divell, and omit internall Temptati|ons, whereof ye purge not your &s;elves &s;ufficiently: But left that company you in &s;uch a condition? Medied it &s;elf no more in a bu&s;ine&s;&s;e of &s;o great con&s;equence, in e&s;tabli&s;hing a new Government, to which it was to &s;ubmit it &s;elf? Did it &s;o let it &s;elf be led by the no&s;e? Had it no more intere&s;t in the bu&s;i|ne&s;&s;e? It is too much: Onely I adde, it is one of the greate&s;t Temptations, that a man can fall into, to e&s;teem him&s;elf without Temptations; and that &s;uch a man, in &s;uch a ca&s;e, &s;hould not need to &s;ay, <HI>Lead us not into Temptation:</HI> And was this no Temptation, that ye went out of your Countrey with &s;ome mi&s;contentment in it; that ye found your &s;elves &s;o con&s;ocia|ted, that ye might frame your Government to your pre&s;ent e&s;tate and condition, as was requi&s;ite in &s;uch a company; that
<PB N="10" REF="9">&s;huning too much one extremitie, becau&s;e of your &s;ufferings, ye &s;hould pre&s;ently run into the other. Neither was this extravagant power a &s;mall temptation, <HI>Nunquam &s;atis fida potentia, ubi uimia e&s;t.</HI></P>
<P>[<HI>We had</HI> (&s;ay ye) <HI>of all men, the greate&s;t rea&s;on to be true to our own con&s;ciences in what we &s;hould embrace.</HI>]</P>
<P>This Brethren cannot be &s;aid, without a high e&s;teem of your &s;elves, and great undervaluing of others: Have not other men as good rea&s;on as ye, to be true unto their con&s;ciences, &s;ince they are all bound under the pain of eternall condemnation to that duty? What greater rea&s;on then this, can ye have? Have not the&s;e (whom ye call Presbyterians) who were condemned to death, for that Di&s;cipline, ready to be executed, who after|ward were exiled into forraign Countreys, wherein they ended their lives; who were men of no le&s;&s;e learning, abilities, and holine&s;&s;e of life, then any of your profe&s;&s;ion, had they not (I &s;ay) as great rea&s;on to be true to their con&s;ciences, as ye can have?</P>
<P>Afterward in this Paragraph ye remove all ayms and ends, that might make you byas. [<HI>We had</HI> (&s;ay ye) <HI>no new Common-Wealths to rear, &amp;c.</HI>] As much may all Schi&s;maticks &s;ay; Neither can every man have new Common-wealths to rear; neither can the&s;e of <HI>New-England</HI> &s;ay &s;o: And as for you five, your number was too &s;mall; and how&s;oever, ye had not King|doms in your eye, yet had every one of you, one in his heart, to &s;ubdue: <HI>Tunc omnia jura renebis, cum poteris Rex e&s;&s;e tui: Hoc regnum &s;ibi qui&s;que dat:</HI> This is a Kingdom, which every man by Gods grace, may take and give to him&s;elf, without any materiall Arms, or Armies: And howbeit, ye have no State ends, neverthele&s;&s;e, as ye have very many good men, &s;o have ye very many good States-men among you, yea, more then tho&s;e that maintain Presbyterian Di&s;cipline in regard of your num|ber: But what Republikes had the Prote&s;tants in <HI>France</HI> or <HI>Scotland,</HI> to rear, or worldly Kingdoms to &s;ubdue more then ye?</P>
<P>Your <HI>mould</HI> (of Church Government) <HI>will be coexi&s;tent</HI> (&s;ay ye) <HI>with the peace of any form of civill Government on earth</HI>] that may be true of yours; but not of ours; for it cannot comply with that of the Turks; and we confe&s;&s;e ingenuou&s;ly,
<PB N="11" REF="9">that for any thing we know, yours will comply a great deal more with State, and State ayms, then ever S. <HI>Peter,</HI> S. <HI>Paul,</HI> or we could do; how&s;oever, ours &s;ubmitteth it &s;elf willingly to all &s;ort of ju&s;t Government, that is of God. Neither re|quireth the Parliament any thing more of the Church of GOD.</P>
<P>Howbeit, ye had <HI>No preferment or worldly re&s;pects to &s;hape your opinions for</HI>]; yet prai&s;ed be God, your Mini&s;ters have no want, but as great abundance of worldly means, as any of your Brethren that &s;tand for Presbyteriall Government. But what preferment or worldly re&s;pects, could <HI>Calvin</HI> or <HI>Beza</HI> have had, who for the puritie of Doctrine, and of Di&s;cipline, introduced this Presbyteriall Government, whereby both them|&s;elves, and all they that &s;hould thereafter profe&s;&s;e the Go&s;pel, were deprived of all hopes of future preferment, and worldly re&s;pects? What preferment or worldly re&s;pects could they have, that refu&s;ed them, when they were offered unto them, and prefer'd death and perpetuall exile, before good fat Bi&s;hop|ricks? We know King <HI>James</HI> his round an&s;wer, when &s;ome asked him, wherefore he preferred not good men to Bi&s;hopricks in <HI>Scotland? The Divell an hone&s;t man</HI> (&s;ayes he) <HI>will accept them.</HI> And what greater preferment have they, who at this pre|&s;ent travell to bring in Presbyteriall Government? Are they richer then before they were? Are they to be in greater places, then Mini&s;ters of the Word? Truely I may &s;ay &s;omething that I have &s;een: Some of them &s;undry times, &s;o exhau&s;ted their &s;ickly bodies, with pains in this Cau&s;e, that &s;undry times they lo&s;t their health, and fell &s;ick; but for worldly profit and pre|ferment, I never heard of it.</P>
<P>How great a fortune made <HI>Calvin</HI> with it? Who as it is known, and faithfully related by tho&s;e who did write his life, &s;undry times refu&s;ed worldly means, in a very fair and honourable way offered unto him; and who&s;e Inventory after his death, hardly could amount to 40 pounds?</P>
<P><HI>We had</HI> (&s;ay ye) <HI>nothing el&s;e to do but &s;imply and &s;ingly to con|&s;ider how to wor&s;hip God acceptably. An&s;w.</HI> So much may many others &s;ay. But mo&s;t truely, may as much be &s;aid of our fir&s;t Parents in Paradi&s;e, yet they gave them&s;elves &s;ome other thing
<PB N="12" REF="10">to do: Be&s;ides all this, ye are too peremptorious, ye five, to &s;peak in the name of all the re&s;t; for how&s;oever, every one of you, may an&s;wer for one, <HI>viz.</HI> for him&s;elf; yet can none of you, nor ye all; an&s;wer for all tho&s;e of your profe&s;&s;ion, &s;ince their hearts are unknown to you, and ye have no warrant from them.</P>
<P><HI>Sect.</HI> 6. <HI>pag.</HI> 4. <HI>We were not engaged by Education, &amp;c.</HI>] And yet it is a ble&s;&s;ing of God, by Education to be engaged to good, and bred in a true Doctrine and Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Di&s;ci|pline: Neither e&s;teem I, that it was a cur&s;e to the People of God, to have been bred in his Covenant: Neither think ye it, a cur&s;e to yours, to have been bred among&s;t you.</P>
<P><HI>Ye &s;uppo&s;e that other Reformed Churches, might not &s;ee in all things:</HI> So &s;uppo&s;e we of you, and that with greater rea&s;on, being but five men, not comparable with &s;o many lights of the World, of whom ye make your &s;elves judges.</P>
<P>And yet ye e&s;teem wrong <HI>in e&s;teeming, that their intention was mo&s;t &s;pent in the Reformation of Doctrine.</HI> 1. For that is in|directly to accu&s;e them of negligence, in reforming of Di&s;ci|pline. 2. Becau&s;e their Con&s;ultations, and Epi&s;tles, &s;ent to &s;undry Churches abroad, te&s;tifies the contrary. 3. Becau&s;e the French tia vell very much about their Di&s;cipline, and have reformed &s;undry things therein. 4 And have a great many more helps, then ye to frame it, to Gods Word; for it is expre&s;ly in|joyned, every Church Ruler, to read it diligently: Once every three moneths it is read in their Con&s;i&s;tory; and what ever any man findeth defectuous in it, is repre&s;ented to the Synod wherein there are &s;o many of the learned&s;t, mo&s;t judici|ous, and holy Divines of the whole Kingdom; by whom after due Examination, by Common-advice, in the fear of the Lord, at may much better be reformed, then by the advice of one In|dependent Mini&s;ter, and two or three Ruling Elders in their particular Congregation: And to think that one of you, can &s;ee more, then &s;o many learned and Godly men, gathered in the fear of the Lord, cannot be thought without too good opinion of your &s;elves. 5. Be&s;ides all this, a good Di&s;cipline, may very well be e&s;tabli&s;hed, by men of le&s;&s;e holine&s;&s;e of life, &s;o be it, they have greater abilities, for the gift of con&s;tituting a good Di&s;ci|pline,
<PB N="13" REF="10">is not a gift proper to a good man, but to a good Church Officer it is not <HI>Gratia grarum faciens, &s;ed gratis data;</HI> not a &s;aving gift or grace that maketh us gracious or acceptable to God, but graciou&s;ly given or be&s;towed upon us; not to &s;ave our &s;elves, but other men, as the gift of Prophe&s;ie; for a man in preaching and ruling, may &s;ave others, and damn him|&s;elf. And a man may be a very good Prophet or Ruler in the Church, if he have the abilities thereunto, and exerci&s;e them well; and an ill man, if he let not him&s;elf be taught and ruled: So we may &s;ay, a man may be a good Citizen, a good King, a good Souldier, or a good Cobler, but an ill man.</P>
<P>Ye grant, that <HI>In Doctrine they had a mo&s;t happy hand:</HI> but wherefore may ye not judge them, as well to have had an happy hand in Di&s;cipline? Was Gods hand more deficient to them in the one, then in the other? Or had they le&s;&s;e abilities? Or u&s;ed they not their abilities? What rea&s;on rather for the one, then for the other? Had they more Kingdoms to &s;ubdue then ye? Or any other politicall ayms? Or greater temptations then ye?</P>
<P>In the &s;ame Paragraph, ye propound your Obtervations: <HI>viz. That that Government, viz. Presbyteriall hath been accom|panied with more peace then yours;</HI> and it is very true, for who can tell, how many Schi&s;mes and Here&s;ies your Government is &s;ubject unto? What Divi&s;ions and immortall hatreds it hath bred in <HI>New-England? &amp;c.</HI> 2. If it hath more peace, then it is &s;uch, as it &s;hould be, and obtaineth its adequate end, which is the externall peace of the Church.</P>
<P>Ye adde, <HI>That the power of godline&s;s had not bin advanced among&s;t the~, at in this I&s;land.</HI> From whence ye &s;eem to infer, that it is not &s;o good as yours. <HI>An&s;.</HI> 1. As for your Antecedent; it is too bold to make your &s;elves Judges of the power of godline&s;&s;e in other Churches, and to judge your &s;elves the holie&s;t of all others.</P>
<P>But ye prove it by their own Confe&s;&s;ion: <HI>An&s;w.</HI> Brethren ye do not well to take advantage upon other mens Humilitie for to depre&s;&s;e them, and extoll your &s;elves; They do well to think &s;oberly of them&s;elves: So do not ye in e&s;teeming &s;o high|ly of your &s;elves, and &s;o meanly of them. 2. And the French are very courteous and civill, but the more courteous and civill they be, the more di&s;courteous, and uncivill be ye, that take
<PB N="14" REF="11">advantage by their courteou&s;ne&s;&s;e and civilitie, to depre&s;&s;e them under your &s;elves. 3. They have al&s;o this defect, that they have too many complements: But they &s;ay al&s;o, <HI>Let compliments ne doibvent point e&s;tre pris au pied de la lettre,</HI> Com|plements mu&s;t not be taken literally. It &s;eems ye have not much travelled among&s;t them, or remarked well the fa&s;hion of the Countrey.</P>
<P>But put the ca&s;e, your Antecedent were as true as it is fal&s;e: yet your Con&s;equence is naught, becau&s;e of many captions and &s;ophi&s;tications it containeth; onely I will touch two, the fir&s;t is <HI>fallacia non cau&s;ae, ut cau&s;ae,</HI> a fallacious argumentation which bringeth a fal&s;e and apparent cau&s;e, for the true cau&s;e of the effect, or a fal&s;e effect for the true effect of the cau&s;e; for if there were a greater power of godline&s;&s;e among&s;t you, then in other Churches, the cau&s;e thereof, &s;hould not be the fault of the Government, but of the Divell, of tho&s;e that govern, or are governed; not becau&s;e your Di&s;cipline is better then ours, or ours wor&s;e then yours; But 1. becau&s;e the Divell evermore a&s;&s;aults more the true Church, the true Doctrine, and true Di|&s;cipline, then the corrupted Church, her corrupted Doctrine or Di&s;cipline; to the end, that thereby he may calumniate them all, imputing craftily to the Church of God, to the true Do|ctrine and Di&s;cipline, that which &s;hould be imputed to him&s;elf. Or 2. Becau&s;e that the Governours or Rulers of the Church, put not the Di&s;cipline duly in execution: Or 3. Becau&s;e they that &s;hould be governed, will not obey the trueth.</P>
<P N="3">3. Put the ca&s;e the Antecedent were true, and there were no &s;uch captious argumentation: Yet from hence, &s;hould it not follow that Independent, but that Epi&s;copall Govern|ment &s;hould be better then the Presbyterian; becau&s;e the power of godline&s;&s;e acknowledged by &s;trangers, to be greater here, then with them, was not in <HI>Holland,</HI> or in <HI>New-England,</HI> under Independency; but in old <HI>England,</HI> not under Indepen|dent (which hath never here been received) but dependent, <HI>viz.</HI> Epi&s;copall Government, that could not endure Indepen|cy, but per&s;ecuted it: So Brethren, here according to your fa&s;hion, you prove that which ye intend lea&s;t to prove, wherein ordinarily ye are very unfortunate: And if this ye prove, it is
<PB N="15" REF="11">another Sophi&s;tication, commonly called <HI>fallacia ignorationis elenchi,</HI> and <GAP DESC="foreign">, when ye prove one que&s;tion or con|clu&s;ion for another.</P>
<P><HI>Ye had</HI> (&s;aid ye) <HI>the light of old Non-conformi&s;ts, and their draughts of Di&s;cipline:</HI> But ye condemned all, as Soveraign Judges, <HI>And that much more commended to us, becau&s;e</HI> (&s;ay ye) <HI>they were our own:</HI> Here ye manife&s;t a temptation, which ye concealed before.</P>
<P><HI>Ye had the fatall mi&s;carriages and &s;hipwrack of tho&s;e of the Separation,</HI> whom ye &s;ay, we <HI>call Browni&s;ts:</HI> But &s;o call not ye them, becau&s;e ye &s;ymbolize more with them, and had rather call us Calvinians, with the Papi&s;t, then them Browni&s;ts, with us, as they merit; becau&s;e of the Author of their Sect.</P>
<P>Afterwards, in the la&s;t part of this Paragraph, ye come to the examples of <HI>New-England, improved</HI> (as ye &s;ay) <HI>to a better Edition, and greater refinement;</HI> whom ye extoll very highly, in comparing them with <HI>our father Abraham,</HI> and <HI>yet ye &s;tood</HI> (&s;ay ye) <HI>as unengaged Spectators.</HI> So then your Religion in this point was in <HI>ab&s;tractione praeci&s;ionis,</HI> ab&s;tracted and &s;eparated from all Religion, without all Religion, and to live as Specta|tors: This your Religion in this point, was very &s;peculative, and if it were in any other matter then that of Religion, we might ju&s;tly &s;ay, <HI>Spectatum admi&s;&s;i ri&s;um teneatis amici.</HI></P>
<P><HI>We re&s;olved not</HI> (&s;ay ye) <HI>to take up our Religion, by, or from any part.</HI> Neither could ye, being &s;o ab&s;tract from all parties, for ye di&s;&s;ented from all the World; ye held all the World for parties, and made your &s;elves Judges of all the World, till ye had made choice of your new Religion: If this Method in making choice of Religion, be good and hone&s;t, then all tho&s;e that are bred in your Religion, &s;hould do &s;o; which as I be|leeve, ye will no wayes grant.</P>
<P>Upon this Section, wherein ye &s;o much extoll your <HI>New-England</HI>-men, I mu&s;t &s;ay &s;omething of tho&s;e that &s;tood for Presbyterian Government: And not to in&s;i&s;t upon this, how &s;ome of them, as the Hi&s;tories relate, had the gift of Pro|phe&s;ie? What miracles, or at lea&s;t, marvellous things, were done by, or about them, in the time of their Impri&s;onment, and afterwards, in their Exile for that Cau&s;e: How God ex|traordinarily
<PB N="16" REF="12">poured forth his Judgements upon tho&s;e that were in&s;truments of their vexation; and afterward, extraor|dinarily delivered them, upon their repentance: How &s;ome of them, in &s;trange Countries, extraordinarily got the Lan|guage of the Countrey in three moneths, &s;o as to be able to Preach: How the people flockt about them in their hou&s;es: How powerfully they preached twice a day; which was thought in&s;upportable to humane nature, in re&s;pect of <HI>the vio|lence of their action;</HI> and that not for one day, but all the dayes of their lives, to the admiration of many thou&s;ands: How the Papi&s;ts them&s;elves (how&s;oever ordinarily in their &s;peeches they condemned all <HI>Huguenots</HI> to hell) yet excepted them, becau&s;e of the holine&s;&s;e of their lives: How they were never out of Prayers, Meditation or Preaching, as &s;undry eye wit|ne&s;&s;es here can te&s;tifie: How all the Prie&s;ts and Doctors, even the learned&s;t of them, that were &s;ent to the place where they were, to hinder the conver&s;ion of the Papi&s;ts, were converted them&s;elves: Onely I will &s;ay one word of &s;ome, who, not above four or five years ago, undertook a Voyage for a new Planta|tion in <HI>America,</HI> in as great a Wilderne&s;&s;e, as any of your <HI>New-England</HI>-men, and that with far le&s;&s;e worldly means, onely for Gods Service; The&s;e men, I &s;ay, being about the number of one hundred and twenty in one Bottom, and &s;ome thou&s;ands of miles on their way, it plea&s;ed God that a Tempe&s;t &s;o vio|lent &s;eized them, as in it they lo&s;t their Rudder, &s;pent all their Ma&s;ts &s;ave one, and &s;prung three Leaks, whereby the water came in in &s;uch aboundance, that, notwith&s;tanding their ex|traordinary diligence at the Pumps, as al&s;o their indefatigable pains in lading it out by Buckets, hardly could they &s;ave the Ship from &s;inking under them: And yet in this ca&s;e, ever ho|ping again&s;t hope, the Tempe&s;t continuing, it plea&s;ed him, who commands the Windes and Tempe&s;ts, by the &s;ame Tem|pe&s;t to bring them back to the very Port they &s;et out of, and after wards made them Judges of tho&s;e that had unju&s;tly judged them; and in&s;truments, with the re&s;t of the Kingdom, for the e&s;tabli&s;hing of the Presbyteriall Government in greater purity there, from whence it was almo&s;t ca&s;t out. What the&s;e mens lives were, the world can with no le&s;&s;e admiration wonder at,
<PB N="17" REF="12">then at their wondrous deliverance. And yet for all this, will I not compare <HI>the&s;e men with any men in the World, in any jun|cture of time, that may fall out.</HI> As I honour their gifts, &s;o do I other mens al&s;o; but which of them all, be the be&s;t men, or mo&s;t impartiall Judges, he knoweth be&s;t, who knows the hearts of all men.</P>
<P><HI>Sect.</HI> 7. In this Section, ye give out your judgement of other Churches; and in the next, <HI>viz.</HI> 8^o. other Churches judgement of you: I beleeve ye under&s;tand tho&s;e of the <HI>Nether|lands.</HI></P>
<P>Ye acknowledge the Churches under Epi&s;copall Govern|ment in <HI>England,</HI> and under Presbyteriall in <HI>France, Holland,</HI> and <HI>Scotland,</HI> for true Churches, and their Mini&s;tery, for a true Mini&s;tery.</P>
<P>But here I de&s;ire, with many others, to know what ye un|der&s;tand by true Churches, and a true Mini&s;tery? Whether a <HI>Metaphy&s;icall, Logicall, or a Morall veritie?</HI></P>
<P>If ye under&s;tand that they be true Churches, <HI>Veritate Meta|phy&s;ica Entis &amp; Tran&s;cendentali,</HI> &s;uch as <HI>D&uacute; Ple&s;&s;is,</HI> and many of our Divines grant unto the Romi&s;h Church; <HI>viz.</HI> That &s;he is a true Church, (as a Pocky whore, is a true Woman) how|&s;oever her fle&s;h be &s;o con&s;umed with corruption, that &s;he can|not live, but mu&s;t die of it, and that none can touch her, without danger of being infected with her &s;ickne&s;&s;e; for &s;he is an Harlot and a Whore, how&s;oever clothed with Scarlet: We thank you for your favour: Ye hold us in the &s;ame Categorie with <HI>Rome.</HI></P>
<P>If ye hold us a true Church, <HI>veritate logica, and morally,</HI> for a pure Church; wherefore de&s;ire ye a Toleration? Where|fore will ye not joyn with us, and communicate, as Brethren, with us?</P>
<P>But ye adde a little after the middle part of this Section, <HI>That ye both did, and would hold, a Communion, with all tho&s;e Churches, as with the Churches of Chri&s;t.</HI></P>
<P>But what communion is this, ye hold with the&s;e, rather then with Papi&s;ts, Browni&s;ts, Anabapti&s;ts in <HI>England,</HI> and the Lutherans?</P>
<P>If ye &s;ay in Doctrine; that Union is not externall, &s;ince ye
<PB N="18" REF="13">te&s;tifie it not, by your externall Communion in the Sacraments with us; for ye will not admit all tho&s;e to your Communion, that we admit to ours: 2. Neither will tho&s;e of <HI>New-England,</HI> whom ye cry up, and extoll &s;o highly, admit tho&s;e of our Church to their Communion, or to be Members of their Churches, unle&s;&s;e of late, they have changed their opini|on; and ye, and they temporize in conforming your opinions to the times, and commen&s;urate them to Politicall ayms for Toleration. 3. Neither know we, whether they will com|municate with us; at lea&s;t their Writings and Letters, from <HI>New-England,</HI> which heretofore we have &s;een, te&s;tifie no &s;uch thing; &s;o that in this ye di&s;&s;ent from them, unle&s;&s;e they within this yeer, di&s;&s;ent from them&s;elves. 4. By the &s;ame rea&s;on, ye may communicate with Schi&s;maticks, and men that are ex|communicated among&s;t your &s;elves for their ill life, <HI>viz.</HI> drunkards, bla&s;phemous per&s;ons, <HI>&amp;c.</HI> 5. By the &s;ame rea&s;on ye communicate with &s;ome Papi&s;ts in profe&s;&s;ion, that beleeve all that we beleeve in Doctrine; 6. And with them all, and all Hereticks in part, becau&s;e they agree in part, in the Doctrine, with us.</P>
<P>If it be replied, That they with whom they communicate, mu&s;t al&s;o be of good life; I duply, then it is not a meer <HI>Com|munion in Doctrine,</HI> but in &s;ome other thing be&s;ide, <HI>viz.</HI> In <HI>good life.</HI> And then 2. If they have both &s;ound Doctrine, and be of a good life; or have Faith, which cau&s;es good Doctrine, and Charitie the cau&s;e of a good life: Wherefore de&s;ire ye a Toleration, to make a Sect apart, or what de&s;ire ye more, to make up one Church with them?</P>
<P>But how&s;oever ye pretend this reall Profe&s;&s;ion of Com|munion with us, yet ye overthrow it by your re&s;triction after|wards, <HI>viz. To &s;uch as ye know to be Godly, that came to vi&s;it you in your exile:</HI> But ye will not admit all the Members of our Churches, but &s;uch as ye onely judge, not we, to be Mem|bers of our Church.</P>
<P>Ye &s;ay in the &s;ame Section, <HI>That ye Baptize your Children in our Pari&s;hionell Congregations:</HI> Wherefore then will ye not as well communicate at the Lords Table with us all? And if &s;o, Wherefore will ye not likewi&s;e admit us all to your Com|munion?</P>
<PB N="19" REF="13">
<P>In the 8. &sect;. <HI>[And as we alwayes, &amp;c.]</HI> In this Paragraph, or Section, ye &s;hew the judgement of forraign Churches con|cerning you, how <HI>ye both mutually gave, and received the right <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="3 letters">ds of fellow&s;hip:</HI> How they gave you Churches to Preach in, &s;ome Priviledges, <HI>a maintenance annually for your Mini&s;ters, &amp;c.</HI>] So here in <HI>England</HI> hitherto ye have had libertie to Preach in our Churches, and may have, if ye will, and &s;ome of you have &s;ome Benefices: But if ye go on, ayming at a Tolera|tion, and con&s;equentlie, at &s;ome Separation, as we have &s;hewed, I doubt if ye &s;hall, or &s;hould have any annuall allowance at all, or Churches to Preach in, as before you had. Moreover, we know not, upon what grounds ye were tolerated in the <HI>Nether|lands;</HI> whether it was not in con&s;ideration of your precedent afflictions, hoping that ye might &s;ubmit your &s;elves to Presby|teriall Government in your own Countrey, if it were well e&s;tabli&s;ht; or in favour of &s;ome Merchants; by publike or pri|vate authoritie, Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall or Civill, or other wayes. Onely we &s;ay, That many Sects are tolerated there: Neither how|beit ye were tolerated in the <HI>Netherlands, Polonia</HI> or <HI>Germany.</HI> where many Religions are tolerated and permitted out of Ci|vill re&s;pects, Is it equitable, ye &s;hould be tolerated here, where there is one onely Religion profe&s;&s;ed, and one Goverment, as we &s;hall &s;ee hereafter.</P>
<P>In the 9.10.11.12.13.14. ye give account of your Practices in publike Wor&s;hip, Church Officers, matter of Government and Cen&s;ures, and your directive principles in all this: Hence in the 15.16.17.18.19.20.21. ye infer your Conclu&s;ion of Independencie of every particular Congregation. As for the parts of your publike wor&s;hip, we con&s;ent with you.</P>
<P>In your Church Officers, ye acknowledge with us four; <HI>viz. Pa&s;tours, Teachers, Ruling Elders, and Deacons.</HI> But ye la&s;h us a little with your Parenthe&s;is about our Ruling El|ders. <HI>[With us not Lay, but Eccle&s;ia&s;tique per&s;ons, &s;eparated to that &s;ervice.]</HI> Here ye &s;eem to accu&s;e the Reformed Churches in <HI>France,</HI> the <HI>Netherlands, Scotland, &amp;c.</HI> as if they all e&s;teemed them Lay, and not Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Per&s;ons. If this be your minde, it is a great mi&s;take in you; and we can produce their writings to the contrarie; if not, we know not, to what
<PB N="20" REF="14">end, ye in&s;erted this particular Parenthe&s;is. As ye therefore in&s;erted yours, &s;o do we ours <HI>[but not Preachers, or Teachers of the Word:]</HI> And therefore we de&s;ire to know of you, if Ru|ling Elders have power to teach; as it is maintained by other Independents; and if they Preach or Teach, how they can be di&s;tingui&s;hed from Preachers, and Teachers? For all Charges receive their unitie, and di&s;tinction from their Acts, and Ends: Wherefore, if the Ruling Elder Preach, or Teach, which is the Act, and End of the Preacher, and Teacher, he mu&s;t have the &s;ame Office with Preachers, and Teachers. 2. The Apo&s;tle al&s;o di&s;tingui&s;hes them, 1 <HI>Cor.</HI> 12. Wherefore then confound ye them?</P>
<P>Ye adde in this 9. Section concerning <HI>Excommunication upon ob&s;tinacy and impenitency,</HI> this Parenthe&s;is, as worthy of &s;ome particular ob&s;ervation, <HI>[which we ble&s;&s;e God we never u&s;ed]</HI> as if your Churches were &s;o pure, that not one man &s;hould de|&s;erve it: We cannot &s;ay &s;o much of our Churches: Neither can your Brethren of <HI>New-England</HI> &s;ay &s;o much of theirs: We know, that &s;ome have been Independenters, as we our &s;elves have heard from their own mouthes, that now are become Anabapti&s;ts: And whether &s;uch men merited it, or not, judge ye: If they merited it, ye have been very partiall, and unju&s;t, in not u&s;ing of it: So that proceeds not from want of demerits, in the per&s;ons to be puni&s;hed, but of ju&s;tice in the Rulers to execute it.</P>
<P>Neither do we deny, but a number of very holy per&s;ons may be gathered together, who may &s;o carrie them&s;elves for &s;ome time, as not to commit any great offence with per|tinacie, to de&s;erve Excommunication, if the choice be good. But to &s;ay, that it may la&s;t long &s;o in Populous Congre|gations, and in a great number of Churches, ye may tell us this news, when your Churches are multiplied, and become as Populous, and have endured as long as ours. We could tell wonders al&s;o of our Churches in &s;ome parts, in the beginning of the Reformation: But the que&s;tion is not, who liveth, holie&s;t, but who&s;e Di&s;cipline is mo&s;t conform unto Gods Word?</P>
<P>Your Directive Principles were three. 1. <HI>Gods Word,
<PB N="21" REF="14">and the Law of Nature fully known.</HI> 2. <HI>Not to make your pre|&s;ent judgement, and practi&s;e a binding Law unto your &s;elves, for the future.</HI> 3. <HI>In matters of greate&s;t moment, and controver&s;ie, ye &s;till tho&s;ed to practi&s;e &s;afely, and &s;o as ye had rea&s;on to judge, that all &s;orts, or mo&s;t of all the Churches did acknowledge warrantable, although they make additaments thereunto.</HI></P>
<P>We agree with you in the&s;e principles in generall;<NOTE PLACE="marg">&sect; 11. <HI>p.</HI> 9.</NOTE> and neverthele&s;&s;e we mu&s;t touch a word in pa&s;&s;ing, of that, which we ob&s;erve in every one of them, and in every Paragraph. And fir&s;t, in the 11. &sect;. about the mid&s;t thereof, where ye &s;ay, That in Gods Word <HI>ye found Principles enough, not onely fundament|all, and e&s;&s;entiall to the being of a Church, but &s;uper&s;tructory al&s;o to the welbeing of it, and tho&s;e to you clear and certain.</HI> We know not what ye call Fundamentall, and E&s;&s;entiall, unto a Church; for the E&s;&s;ences of things are unknown unto us; Yea, the mo&s;t part of the Philo&s;ophers them&s;elves, who di&s;|pute about E&s;&s;ences, confe&s;&s;e, that we know the E&s;&s;ence of nothing, but that onely of man, which they &s;ay is <HI>animal ra|tionale;</HI> and yet, in this they di&s;&s;ent, and many &s;ay, that this is but an accidentall expre&s;&s;ion of his Being: If ye cannot then declare us the Fundament, and E&s;&s;ence of the Church, ye are barbarous to us, and &s;peak in a Language, as unknown to us, as unto your &s;elves.</P>
<P>Again, we de&s;ire to know, What ye under&s;tand here, by the Being of a Church: whether her internall, or externall Being? In Doctrine and Holine&s;&s;e? or in Di&s;cipline? If the fir&s;t, it is not to the purpo&s;e; for we have no Di&s;pute here with you about the internall Being, or Doctrine of the Church, as ye confe&s;&s;e your &s;elves, but about her externall Being, or Di&s;ci|pline: And in this al&s;o we confe&s;&s;e our ignorance, that we know not wherein con&s;i&s;teth its E&s;&s;ence or Being; and that we cannot di&s;tingui&s;h it well from its Accidents, or Super|&s;tructories, till ye teach us; and therefore de&s;ire you to avoyd tho&s;e ob&s;cure terms, and to give it us in &s;ome cleerer.</P>
<P>Ye adde, That they <HI>will &s;erve to pre&s;erve your Churches in peace:</HI> whereof ye were not content, <HI>Sect.</HI> 6, &s;aying, That how&s;oever Presbyteriall Government obtained this end, yet it differenced them not from carnall Chri&s;tians.</P>
<PB N="22" REF="15">
<P>In your third Directory Principle, <HI>Sect.</HI> 13. <HI>Pag.</HI> 11. ye go very &s;ubtillie to work, by Metaphy&s;icall Ab&s;tractions, as Philo&s;o|phers, in ab&s;tracting their Genericall degrees of E&s;&s;ences from the &s;peciall; and their Specificall from their Individuall: For ye take &s;ome thing, wherein we all con&s;ent; but not all, to the end there may be &s;omething, wherein ye di&s;&s;ent from us all. And &s;o did the Arminians in their Confe&s;&s;ion of Faith, wherein they ab&s;tracted a degree of con&s;ent, among&s;t the mo&s;t part of Chri&s;tians, yea with the Socinians, who deny the Tri|nitie, and the Incarnation of the Son of God; and left that, wherein they di&s;&s;ented, as indifferent.</P>
<P>But this cannot hold; For how&s;oever, that, wherein, ye agree with us, be &s;afe; yet is not that &s;o <HI>&s;afe,</HI> wherein ye di&s;&s;ent from us all. Neither is it &s;afe for &s;o few men to di&s;&s;ent From all the World, unle&s;&s;e they have very &s;trong rea&s;ons for their di&s;|&s;ent; and principallie, when the point wherein they di&s;&s;ent, is not of great importance: For the le&s;&s;e it is, the greater is the Schi&s;me.</P>
<P>Be&s;ides this in this Directory Principle, how&s;oever ye &s;eem to defer, and attribute very much to all Churches, in fol|lowing their common Practi&s;es; yet ye give them nothing at all; for ye &s;ubmit their judgement to your own; and what&s;oever, they hold commonly again&s;t you, ye call it an <HI>Additament;</HI> &s;o that ye are not ready in any thing to a&s;&s;ent with them, unle&s;&s;e they fir&s;t a&s;&s;ent unto you, which is a very prudent, and &s;ubtle Principle, as well to direct them by you, as you by them.</P>
<P N="3">3. This Principle al&s;o cannot hold. 1. For in vertue thereof, ye have as well Union and Communion with Soci|nians, Arrians, Anabapti&s;ts, Papi&s;ts, Je&s;uites, and other Here|ticks, as with us; (howbeit not &s;o much) for ye con&s;ent with them all, in &s;ome common Principles, as with us: And &s;o, as for your di&s;&s;ent in particular Principles from them, ye may &s;e|parate and do &s;eparate your &s;elves in effect from them; &s;o mu&s;t ye do from us, unle&s;&s;e ye &s;hew us &s;ome other rea&s;on of Externall Union, and Separation, then yet you do.</P>
<PB N="23" REF="15">
<P>Before I quit this Paragraph, or Section, I mu&s;t pray the Reader to note your &s;ubtle way of di&s;puting, how ye chu&s;e &s;ome things, wherein you, and we agree, calling the te&s;t Addi|taments; to the end ye may not be bound to prove any thing. But this &s;ubtiltie is &s;owed but with white thred, &s;o as it evi|dentlie appears to all men, and will &s;erve you for nothing. 1. For either the&s;e Additaments are conform, or repugnant to Gods Word, or indifferent? If conform, wherefore reject ye them? If repugnant, ye are bound to prove it by the Word, how they are condemned by it? If indifferent, ye have no rea&s;on to condemn them, or for them, to be &s;uch eager Suitors for a Toleration of a contrary practi&s;e. 2. <HI>Item,</HI> If that which we have more then the&s;e common Principles, be an Addi|tament, what be tho&s;e, that ye hold in&s;tead of them? For ye remain not within the Limits of bare Ab&s;tractions, and Pre|ci&s;ions, but proceed farther to &s;ome particular Po&s;itive Prin|ciples in your practi&s;e, for every Negation is founded in &s;ome Affirmation, and &s;in is not a meer Negation of good; but al&s;o includeth &s;omething, Po&s;itivelie contrary to good, either Phy&s;ically or Morally, Really, or by rea&s;on.</P>
<P>&sect; 14. <HI>p.</HI> 11. Ye bring &s;ome In&s;tances of this Principle; 1. <HI>About the qualification of the Members of the Church, and promi&s;cuous receiving of good and bad:</HI> And &s;ay, That ye chu&s;e the better part, <HI>viz.</HI> the good, and not the bad; which ye &s;uppo&s;e to be the practi&s;e of all Prote&s;tant Churches: So ye mu&s;t judge all Infants, born in the Church, and admitted to Bapti&s;m among&s;t you, to be good, and to have &s;ome portion of Chri&s;t, before they have the u&s;e of rea&s;on to know Chri&s;t; and &s;o to be regenerate, when they are generated, or to con&s;ort your &s;elves with the Anabapti&s;ts here in <HI>England,</HI> in excluding Children from Bapti&s;m, till they have the u&s;e of rea&s;on, and profe&s;&s;e Faith; for in Independencie, and all other things, they agree with you, as they them&s;elves avow. But of this que&s;tion, about the Members of the Church, we &s;hall, God willing, hear more hereafter, in a particular que&s;tion.</P>
<P>Ten lines after, ye &s;ay, <HI>That the Rules, which ye gave up your judgements unto, to judge tho&s;e ye received in among&s;t you by,
<PB N="24" REF="16">were of that Latitude, as would take in any Member of Chri&s;t, the meane&s;t, in whom there may be &s;uppo&s;ed to be the lea&s;t of Chri&s;t, Pag.</HI> 11, 12.</P>
<P>If this be under&s;tood, of the receiving of men to the Church, ab&s;olutely; or of their fir&s;t entry therein, we have an&s;wered already; and by the grace of God, &s;hall an&s;wer more hereafter: If of the reception of them, to the Lords Table; I an&s;wer, That the true Reformed Churches in <HI>Scotland, France,</HI> the <HI>Netherlands, &amp;c.</HI> receive no man to the Lords Table, whom they judge to be prophane, or &s;candalous, none but &s;uch, as give an accompt of their Faith, and te&s;tifie it by externall Confe&s;&s;ion, and Profe&s;&s;ion in Doctrine, and Sanctifi|cation: If any Preacher, or the Con&s;i&s;tory of Ruling Elders do other wayes, it is not by rule, or their ordinary practi&s;e, but through their negligence, which, when it is known, is condemned by all. We wi&s;h, that none come to the Communi|on of Chri&s;ts Body, among&s;t us, but &s;uch, as have, and feel &s;ome mea&s;ure of Chri&s;t in them&s;elves: But who hath this mea|&s;ure of Chri&s;t; It is hard for any mortall man to know it, but he onely that hath it: It is likewi&s;e hard to know, what mea|&s;ure of Grace is requi&s;ite, to make up a member of Chri&s;t, or of his Church. Some of the Ca&s;ui&s;ts, e&s;teem, that it &s;ufficeth a Roman Catholike, <HI>explicite</HI> (as they call it,) expre&s;ly, cleerly, and plainlie, to beleeve this onely Article, <HI>I beleeve, what the Church beleeveth:</HI> Others e&s;teem it not enough, and there|fore adde this Article: <HI>I beleeve al&s;o, That the Church can|not erre:</HI> Others think this yet not enough, for they wi&s;h Chri&s;tians to beleeve this one more, <HI>viz. I beleeve there is a God.</HI> Some adde one more, <HI>viz. That they mu&s;t beleeve Gods Providence, &amp;c.</HI> We beleeve, that men are bound to beleeve all Divine Truths, revealed in Scripture, as nece&s;&s;ary to Sal|vation; and to beleeve them by a ju&s;tifying Faith: But what be the&s;e, that be ab&s;olutely nece&s;&s;ary to Salvation: What are the&s;e <HI>Fundamentalia, E&s;&s;entialia,</HI> and <HI>Super&s;tructories:</HI> How may they be di&s;tingui&s;hed one from another? What is <HI>maxi|mum quod &s;ic,</HI> and <HI>minimum quod non:</HI> Or <HI>minimum quod &s;ic &amp; maximum quod non?</HI> Or your lea&s;t of Chri&s;t, whereupon a man may be admitted to be a Member of Chri&s;t, we cannot
<PB N="25" REF="16">define it: We leave the Deci&s;ion to more &s;ubtle Spirits, and to our Brethren, who u&s;e tho&s;e termes, and who, upon this <HI>minimum quod &s;ic,</HI> or <HI>lea&s;t bit of Chri&s;t,</HI> do found the Recep|tion of Chri&s;ts Members into the Church. We e&s;teem their Di&s;putes too &s;ubtle, in the practi&s;e of Chri&s;tianitie, in judging others: And wi&s;h with the Apo&s;tle rather, every man to examine and try him&s;elf; For this <HI>directive Principle,</HI> we e&s;teem &s;urer then that of our Brethren. We e&s;teem that &s;uch a Confe&s;&s;ion of Faith, and de&s;ire of Communion, as ordinarily is profe&s;&s;ed by them, who are admitted in Prote&s;tant Churches, may &s;uffice.</P>
<P>Here in the &s;econd In&s;tance of &s;et Forme of Prayers, our Brethren note with a Parenthe&s;is, that they condemn not others, who approve &s;et Formes of Prayers <HI>pre&s;cribed,</HI> and the <HI>Liturgis:</HI> But whether the&s;e of <HI>New-England,</HI> and others of their Profe&s;&s;ion will not condemn them in this, we know not. I wi&s;h that this were not added rather in a compliance with the pre&s;ent time, then otherwi&s;e.</P>
<P><HI>Item,</HI> They tell us, That the <HI>framing of Prayers, and Ser|mons out of their own Gifts, are the Fruits of Chri&s;ts A&s;cen&s;ion.</HI> But why not al&s;o of his death, and Re&s;urrection? Since he did merit this by his death.</P>
<P>In their third In&s;tance about Government, and Eccle&s;ia|&s;ticall Di&s;cipline, we care not, what they &s;ay. The practi&s;e of the Orthodox Churches is this: They have divers Eccle&s;ia&s;ti|call Senats, or Courts, wherein &s;ome are coordinate, and others &s;ubordinated one to another. The lowee&s;t is their Con&s;i&s;tory, or Se&s;&s;ion of the Pa&s;tours, and the Ruling Elders, in one Pari&s;h Church: Then they have their Cla&s;&s;es, which &s;ome call Col|loques, others Presbyteries, made of all the Preachers of all the Pari&s;h Churches, belonging to &s;uch Colloques, every one of them, accompanied with one Elder of his Church. 3. Their Provinciall Synods, made up of all the Mini&s;ters of the Pro|vince, accompanied every one of them with one or two ruling Elders. 4. The Nationall Synod, compounded of a certain number of Mini&s;ters, and Ruling Elders, according to the exi|gence of time, place, and other occa&s;ions, and circum&s;tances, Delegate from all the Provinces, or Provinciall Synods. In the
<PB N="26" REF="17">Con&s;i&s;tory, or Senate of the Pari&s;h Church they judge onely of things that be proper unto it, and of le&s;&s;e importance; that have no great difficultie. In the Colloque, of that, which is common to all the Churches of that Colloque; and of bu&s;i|ne&s;&s;e of greater importance, that cannot be judged, or well determined in a Pari&s;h Church. In a Provinciall Synod, of that, which is common to all the Churches of the Province, &amp; other things of great importance, and all ca&s;es, that cannot &s;o &s;oundly, or &s;o &s;urely be determined in the former A&s;&s;emblies. In a Nationall, of that, which is common to all the Churches of the whole Kingdom; and others, that cannot be determined in the precedent A&s;&s;emblies, as of matters of Appeal, <HI>&amp;c.</HI></P>
<P><HI>Item,</HI> From the fir&s;t, if any of the Parties finde them&s;elves grieved by its judgement, they may appeal to the &s;econd, as from the &s;econd, to the third, and from the third to the fourth. And all the&s;e Judgements and Proceedings are without money, charges, pecuniarie mulcts, or fines. And as their ayms are &s;pi|rituall, &s;o be their puni&s;hments that they inflict upon their De|linquents. Their puni&s;hments are cen&s;ures, Su&s;pen&s;ion from the Lords Table, and their greater Excommunication, which ordi|narily are never inflicted upon whole Churches, as our Brethren unju&s;tly would challenge us, but on particular Per&s;ons: If they had read the Di&s;cipline of the <HI>Scots, French, Netherlands.</HI> and other Reformed Churches, they needed not here have troubled them&s;elves and us with &s;o many mi&s;takes: Or if they have read them, they deal not fairly with us. In &s;ome Churches, particular, or Parochiall Senates, or Con&s;i&s;tories, have power to &s;u&s;pend from their Communion tho&s;e that be Members thereof; yea al&s;o to Excommunicate them, (from the which &s;entence neverthele&s;&s;e they may appeal unto the Superiour Senate or Judicatorie) and that for &s;ome particular rea&s;ons.</P>
<P>But this que&s;tion, God willing, we &s;hall hereafter more fully di&s;cu&s;&s;e. Onely I note in pa&s;&s;ing, that our Brethren, Fir&s;t, are here too &s;paring of Titles to &s;ome, and too liberall to others: They name <HI>Cartwright,</HI> onely <HI>Cartwright,</HI> but <HI>Baynes,</HI> holy <HI>Baynes,</HI> in the &s;ame line, as if they would Canonize the one, making him Saint <HI>Baynes,</HI> (which we condemn in the Pope) and e&s;teem the other prophane, or of the vulgar, and dregs of
<PB N="26" REF="17">Divines, which, as it is &s;aid with reverence and re&s;pect of the one, &s;o it cannot be &s;aid, without di&s;paragement of the other. As for the di&s;tinction of <HI>Eccle&s;iae, in Primas, &amp; Ortas,</HI> it requi|reth a particular Que&s;tion apart.</P>
<P>They &s;ay, 1. <HI>Every Church hath a full and entire power compleat within it &s;elf, till it &s;hould be challenged to erre gro&s;ly.</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg"><HI>Pag.</HI> 14. &sect; 15.</NOTE></P>
<P>Either by a compleat Power ye under&s;tand a Power ab&s;o|&s;olutely compleat, or in its own kinde or &s;ort: If ye under|&s;tand the fir&s;t, it mu&s;t be Independent, for if it depend upon a Superiour to rectifie it, whereunto it mu&s;t give an account of its judgement, and &s;ubmit it &s;elf; in that regard, it is not com|pleat, full, or entire. If of a Power compleat in its own kinde or nature, ye &s;ay nothing, but what we &s;ay, &s;ince it is our opi|nion, That every Particular Congregation hath a compleat Power in it &s;elf, &s;uch as is due to &s;uch a Congregation, depend|ent upon that of Cla&s;&s;es, and Synods (in ca&s;e of Appeal) where|by it may be challenged to erre gro&s;ly: If it be &s;o, Wherefore conte&s;t ye with us, who give you no &s;ubject of quarrell, as not di&s;&s;enting from you in that particular?</P>
<P><HI>Pag.</HI> 14. 2^o, they &s;ay, That they <HI>claim not an independent power in every Congregation, to give an account, or to be &s;ubject to no others. An&s;w.</HI> Then your power is dependent upon &s;ome others; then it mu&s;t give an account, and be &s;ubject to &s;ome other: If &s;ubject to &s;ome others, then that other is &s;uperiour; And what &s;ay we more? onely we &s;ay that there is a &s;ubordina|tion betwixt &s;uperiour and inferiour Eccle&s;ia&s;tical Judicatories, which ye hold here to be <HI>juris divini;</HI> we, <HI>partim divini, partim naturalis aut mixti.</HI> I pray you, Brethren, agree the&s;e two Propo&s;itions, how a Church can have a full and compleat Go|vernment, and yet not independent; it &s;hould &s;eem to me, that either you contradict not us, or contradict your &s;elves within the compa&s;&s;e of two lines.</P>
<P><HI>Pag.</HI> 14. 3^o, they deny, That <HI>by the In&s;titution of Christ, or his Apo&s;tles, the Combination of the Elders of many Churches &s;hould be the fir&s;t, compleat, and entire &s;eat of Church-power, over each Church &s;o combined.</HI> Here ye attribute unto our Churches an opinion, That they own not as their own; <HI>viz.</HI> That the Combination of Elders of many Churches is the fir&s;t Seat of
<PB N="28" REF="18">Church-power; for they hold the contrary, <HI>viz.</HI> That the fir&s;t Seat of Government is in Parochiall Churches, &s;ince there the parties debates their cau&s;e, in fir&s;t In&s;tances; if ye &s;ay that by fir&s;t, ye under&s;tand the principall; then ye cannot deny, but that Senate or A&s;&s;embly, whereunto Particular Congregations are &s;ubject, who&s;e judgement, according to Gods Word, they mu&s;t obey, and of who&s;e judgement their judgements de|pend, mu&s;t be the principall Seat of Church-power; for that is principall, whereof the other dependeth, and to which the other is &s;ubject.</P>
<P>Neither &s;ay we, That it is the compleat, and entire Seat of all Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Judgement; &s;ince in things of le&s;&s;e concern|ment, and that onely belong to Particular Congregations, we hold the Elder&s;hip of that Congregation may judge, and &s;ome|times judges in effect compleatly, and entirely.</P>
<P>But ye propound a tacite Objection: The Elder&s;hip &s;o com|bined <HI>cannot challenge authority over the Churches they feed not.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> 1. We have an&s;wer'd, That our Elder&s;hip challeng|eth no &s;uch authority to it &s;elf. 2. That this argument &s;triketh no le&s;&s;e at your judgements of Neighbour Churches again&s;t Particular Congregations, then at that of combined Elder&s;hips, again&s;t a Particular Church; &s;ince your Neighbour Churches feed no more that particular Congregation, then our combined Elder&s;hips a particular Church.</P>
<P N="2">2. We deny that our Cla&s;&s;es, and Synods, or (as ye call them) combined Presbyteries, or Elder&s;hips, feed not particular Con|gregations, for they govern them, which is a certain &s;ort of feeding, due to Elders; and in this &s;ignification Kings, Princes, and Dukes are called Pa&s;tors, or feeders of their People, becau&s;e they rule them, <HI>Jor.</HI> 6.3. and 12 10.</P>
<P>But to bring more light to this captious Propo&s;ition, and all fallacious Arguments that may be grounded hereupon, here I will more fully declare, in what &s;en&s;e the&s;e Propo&s;itions may be true, or fal&s;e, <HI>viz.</HI> 1. The combined Elder&s;hip hath power to feed, rule, and teach the Church, or all Particular Churches. 2. The combined Elder&s;hip feedeth, or ruleth all Particular Churches. 3. The Elders of the combined Elder&s;hip have power to feed, or rule Particular Churches.</P>
<PB N="29" REF="18">
<P>And for this effect, note, 1. That the feeding, or teaching of the Church may be taken, either in <HI>actu &s;ecundo,</HI> for actuall feed|ing, or the exerci&s;e of the power of feeding, as when a Preacher teaches actually, <HI>&amp;c.</HI> 2. <HI>In actu primo,</HI> for the morall power, which Mini&s;ters have to teach in vertue of their Vocation, and Mi&s;&s;ion to their Charge, and Admi&s;&s;ion into it. So the Power to feed (how&s;oever it &s;ignifie formally the <HI>Actum primum,</HI> as ruling <HI>Actum &s;ecundum</HI>) may be taken in <HI>Actu primo,</HI> for the Power, that a Mini&s;ter hath to feed; or in <HI>Actu &s;ecundo,</HI> for the Act of feeding, proceeding from the power, or fir&s;t act. 3. <HI>Item,</HI> in <HI>Actu &s;ignato,</HI> when a power, or an act is &s;ignified to belong to a thing, that exerci&s;eth not the act; as when a King com|mands, but putteth it not in execution: or in <HI>actu exercito,</HI> when it is exerci&s;ed: &s;o particular Officers have the power, in <HI>actu exercito,</HI> which the King, and &s;uperiour Judges, and Ma|gi&s;trates have in <HI>actu &s;ignato.</HI></P>
<P N="3">3. That the Mini&s;ters, or Elders of the Elder&s;hip may be con&s;idered in quality of a collective body of Elders; or &s;eve|rally every one apart; which the School-men call ordinarily <HI>collectiv&egrave;, &amp; di&s;tributiv&egrave;.</HI> If &s;everally, then either Ab&s;olutely, without any relation to the collective body of the Elder&s;hip, and in quality of particular Mini&s;ters of their own Particular Churches; or with &s;ome relation, or re&s;pect to the collective body, or combination of the Elder&s;hip, <HI>viz.</HI> as parts thereof.</P>
<P N="4">4. The whole collective body of the Elder&s;hip may be taken, either <HI>formally,</HI> as it is a collection of &s;undry Elders, ac|cording to the Order e&s;tabli&s;hed in the Church, repre&s;enting many Churches combined, and con&s;ociated, from which they have their Commi&s;&s;ions; or materially in quality of Mini&s;ters, or Elders, of whom the Con&s;ociation, or Combination, or Synod, or Cla&s;&s;icall A&s;&s;embly of Elders is compounded.</P>
<P N="5">5. Both the collective body, or con&s;ociation of Elders, which is a repre&s;entative body of many Churches, as al&s;o eve|ry particular reall Church, and the whole Militant Church, may be con&s;idered (as other things) <HI>aut ut Totum &s;impliciter, aut ut Totum, &amp; totaliter;</HI> either as a Totall, or Totally, as a Whole or wholly; &s;o may we &s;ay of <HI>omne,</HI> it may be taken <HI>&s;impliciter pro omne, vel pro Omni, &amp; omnino, vel omni modo:</HI> this
<PB N="30" REF="19">word <HI>All,</HI> may be taken ab&s;olutely for <HI>all,</HI> or for <HI>all,</HI> con&s;idered all manner of wayes, or altogether.</P>
<P>Then a <HI>Totum</HI> is taken <HI>totaliter,</HI> or totally, or a whole thing wholly, and this word <HI>All,</HI> all wayes, when it is taken, according to all the <HI>Modifications,</HI> that it can have; As for example, <HI>Peter</HI> is a <HI>Totum,</HI> or a Whole-man, when he is lying in his Bed at <HI>Rome,</HI> he is <HI>Totus Romae,</HI> all, or whole at <HI>Rome;</HI> but not <HI>Totaliter,</HI> totally, not wholly, or all wayes; for he may &s;it, and &s;tand at <HI>Rome;</HI> and when he is lying, he is not ac|cording to the&s;e other wayes, and <HI>Modifications, viz.</HI> &s;tanding, <HI>&amp;c.</HI> Yea, I may &s;ay, that it is impo&s;&s;ible, That at one time a <HI>Totum</HI> be, or exi&s;t in one place <HI>totum, &amp; totaliter. i. e. Secun|dum omnes &s;uos modes po&s;&s;ibiles, multi enim divi&s;im &s;unt po&s;&s;ibiles &s;ed conjunctim incompo&s;&s;ibiles;</HI> A whole thing cannot be wholly, or all wayes, or according to all its po&s;&s;ible <HI>Modifica|tions;</HI> for many of them &s;everally, or apart are po&s;&s;ible, which conjunctly are incompo&s;&s;ible, (if I may &s;o expre&s;&s;e my &s;elf) or rather impo&s;&s;ible: So a man may be white, and he may be black; but he cannot be white, and black together, for the&s;e two qualities, being contrary, are impo&s;&s;ible, or incompatible one with another.</P>
<P>If then <HI>feeding</HI> either by way of <HI>teaching,</HI> or <HI>ruling;</HI> or the <HI>power</HI> to <HI>feed,</HI> be taken in <HI>actu primo, viz.</HI> for the <HI>facultie</HI> to feed, this Propo&s;ition, The combined Elder&s;hip or a Cla&s;&s;icall, or Synodall A&s;&s;embly, and every particular Elder con&s;idered apart, and &s;eparated from the combined Presbyteries have power to feed, teach, or rule, all particular Churches, is true. And as for the particular Elders (which may &s;eem the mo&s;t ab&s;urd) it appeareth cleerly; for if they had it not how could ye, or they, Preach in &s;undry, and divers particular Churches, as ye do, out of your own particular Churches? If it be an&s;wered, that ye do it onely <HI>Occa&s;ionally,</HI> and not <HI>Ordinarily:</HI></P>
<P>I reply, That before ye can do it either <HI>Occa&s;ionally,</HI> or <HI>Ordinarily,</HI> ye mu&s;t have a power to do it <HI>ab&s;olutely;</HI> for <HI>actus &s;ecundus &s;upponit primum,</HI> the &s;econd act &s;uppo&s;eth the fir&s;t; or all actions &s;uppo&s;e &s;ome active power, from whence they proceed; for a man, that is no Mini&s;ter can neither Preach <HI>Ordinarily,</HI> nor <HI>Occa&s;ionally.</HI></P>
<PB N="31" REF="19">
<P><HI>Item,</HI> It is a certain Maxime in Logick, that a <HI>Parte in modo ad Totum argument amur affirmativ&egrave;, ut, e&s;t homo albus, Ergo, e&s;t homo.</HI> We argue from a <HI>modified</HI> part, or taken with &s;ome limitation, or modification to the <HI>whole;</HI> as if I &s;ay, this is a white man; <HI>Ergo,</HI> this is a man: So I &s;ay, this man may Preach <HI>occa&s;ionally; Ergo,</HI> this man may Preach, or have Authoritie to Preach; <HI>For Power or Authoritie to Preach, is Totum in modo, and Power, or Authoritie to Preach occa&s;ionally, or ordinari|ly, are partes in modo.</HI></P>
<P>If it be objected, That if every particular Mini&s;ter hath Power or Authoritie to Preach in every Church, or Congrega|tion, then every Mini&s;ter is an univer&s;all Pa&s;tour, as the Apo|&s;tles: But &s;o it is not. <HI>Ergo.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> I deny the Con&s;equence of the fir&s;t Propo&s;ition, for an Apo&s;tle not onely hath an univer&s;all Vocation to teach all particular Churches, and Flocks, but al&s;o to teach all parti|cular, and ordinary Pa&s;tours, or Mini&s;ters of all particular Churches, and Flocks. 2. <HI>Item,</HI> The Vocation of the Apo&s;tles was immediately from God. 3. They were infallible in Do|ctrine. 4. Endowed with extraordinarie Gifts. 5. They had no particular Mi&s;&s;ion, to re&s;train them to any particular Church; And the&s;e four la&s;t Conditions were mo&s;t convenient|ly annexed unto the Univer&s;alitie of their Charge, which cannot be &s;aid of ordinary, and particular Mini&s;ters.</P>
<P>If it be replied, At lea&s;t they differ not from them in the Univer&s;alitie of their Charge, but onely in &s;ome Accidents, as in Infallibilitie, &s;ome extraordinarie Gifts, <HI>&amp;c.</HI> that are meer|ly Extrin&s;ecall unto the Charge, and to the Univer&s;alitie thereof.</P>
<P>I an&s;wer, Fir&s;t, That the&s;e Accidents are not meerly Ex|trin&s;ecall unto the Univer&s;alitie of the Apo&s;tolicall Charge, but Intrin&s;ecally annexed unto it, by Gods Ordinance, by Con|gruitie, and Morally; &s;ince it could not be Univer&s;ally exerci|&s;ed without them.</P>
<P>Secondly, For the better cleering of this, I ob&s;erve, That to the Charge of a Mini&s;ter, three things are nece&s;&s;ary. 1. A generall Vocation to Preach, and that not unlike to that, which Ma&s;ters of Arts, and Doctors receive in Univer&s;ities, with
<PB N="32" REF="20">this clau&s;e, <HI>Hic, &amp; ubique terrarum,</HI> to Teach here, and through all the World. 2. A &s;peciall Mi&s;&s;ion, either 1. by God alone; or 2. or al&s;o from the Repre&s;entative Church. 3. A particular Election, and Admi&s;&s;ion, whereby the Mini&s;ter is elected by a Reall particular Church, and &s;o admitted therein to exerci&s;e his Charge.</P>
<P>The fir&s;t of the&s;e three is common to the Apo&s;tles, with all ordinary Mini&s;ters: The &s;econd is univer&s;all in the Apo&s;tles, for Chri&s;t &s;ent them to teach all Nations, and &s;itted them with gifts convenient thereunto; But it is particular in Particular, and Ordinary Mini&s;ters, for orders &s;ake, and that <HI>jure divine,</HI> as many learned, and godly Divines hold: The third, <HI>jure divine,</HI> &s;hould be univer&s;all, in re&s;pect of the Apo&s;tles; for every Par|ticular Church was bound to admit the Apo&s;tles, in ca&s;e they would have preached among&s;t them; and if any &s;hould have refu&s;ed them, yet in vertue of their generall Vocation, and uni|ver&s;all Mi&s;&s;ion from God, they had power, and Authoritie to Preach among them, and in them all; But in Particular, and Ordinary Mini&s;ters it is onely Particular, and not Univer&s;all; for neither doth every Particular Church chu&s;e, elect, or admit every Ordinary Mini&s;ter to be its Mini&s;ter, neither is it bound &s;o to do.</P>
<P>The fir&s;t of the&s;e three is the remote foundation, or the remote, and principall cau&s;e of the Power, and Authoritie that a Mini&s;ter hath to Preach, or to rule the Church of God: The &s;econd and third are the next, and immediate foundation, or cau&s;e thereof, or <HI>conditio &s;ine qua non; viz.</HI> The univer&s;all Mi&s;&s;ion, and Admi&s;&s;ion of Mini&s;ters, is the immediate cau&s;e of their univer&s;all Power, and Authoritie; but the particular Mi&s;&s;ion, and Admi&s;&s;ion is the immediate cau&s;e of the Power, and Authoritie of Particular Mini&s;ters: And as we never finde the Philo&s;ophers <HI>Particularia,</HI> without their <HI>&V;niver&s;alia</HI> in <HI>Particularibus inclu&s;a,</HI> never a <HI>Genus</HI> but in &s;ome <HI>Species,</HI> nor a <HI>Species</HI> but in &s;ome <HI>Individuum,</HI> by who&s;e Differences their in|different Nature is limited, and determined; No more finde we over this va&s;t, and generall Vocation in Ordinary Mini&s;ters without this Particular Mi&s;&s;ion of &s;ome Repre&s;entative Church, and Admi&s;&s;ion in, and by &s;ome Reall, and Particular
<PB N="33" REF="20">Church, or at lea&s;t it &s;hould not be; for without this con&s;ent Election, and Admi&s;&s;ion, a Mini&s;ter is no more its Mini&s;ter, then a Man is a Womans Husband without her con&s;ent. Nei|ther can a Man be married to a Woman in generall, or to an <HI>Individuam vagam,</HI> but to this, or that Particular Woman, with whom he contracteth: No more can a Preacher be &s;ent to Preach to the Church in generall, or to Particular Churches indefinitely, <HI>viz.</HI> Unto <HI>quaedam Eccle&s;ia,</HI> but to this Church di&s;tinctly.</P>
<LIST>
<ITEM>1. And &s;o I an&s;wer, that a Particular and Ordinary Mini&s;ter is differenced from an Univer&s;all Mini&s;ter, or an Apo&s;tle by the Particularitie of his charge, in vertue of his Particular Mi&s;&s;ion, which he hath of God, by a Repre&s;entative Church, and of his Particular Election, and Admi&s;&s;ion, which depend upon that Particular Reall Church, who&s;e Mini&s;ter he is, and not in vertue of his generall Vocation, which is common unto both, <HI>Nam Principium convenientiae non e&s;t Principium differentiae,</HI> That wherein things do agree cannot di&s;tingui&s;h, or make them differ.</ITEM>
<ITEM>2. Every particular, or Ordinary Mini&s;ter may feed, teach, and rule all the Church, but not alwayes, <HI>Totam militantem Eccle&s;iam, &s;ed non totaliter,</HI> All particular Churches, but not particularly, for (as we have &s;aid) he may teach in every Church, becau&s;e he may Preach in them, being invited there|unto; but he cannot Teach in them all, alwayes, in every par|ticular way, by way of a Particular, and Ordinary Mi&s;&s;ion, and Admi&s;&s;ion, as their Particular Pa&s;tour: For neither is he called to Teach in them all, neither can he rule them all <HI>con|junctim</HI> in one time, but one onely Ordinarily, and two, or three Extraordinarily in ca&s;e of &s;ome urgent nece&s;&s;itie.</ITEM>
<ITEM>3. Yea, we may &s;ay, That a Particular Mini&s;ter cannot evermore, neither doth he evermore feed his own Particular Church, <HI>totam, &amp; totaliter,</HI> the whole Church, wholly, as Experience teacheth us, but &s;ometimes he feedeth it one way, &s;ometimes another, &s;ometimes in teaching, &s;ometimes in ruling, <HI>&amp;c.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>4. It may be &s;aid, That the con&s;ociated, or combined Pres|byteries, and Presbyters rule all the Churches, from which
<PB N="34" REF="21">they have Commi&s;&s;ion. 1. In qualitie of Particular Mini&s;ters, as we have already declared. 2. In a Particular way in vertue of their Commi&s;&s;ion from Particular Churches, in who&s;e name they appear, and in vertue of their Admi&s;&s;ion in a Cla&s;&s;icall or Synodall A&s;&s;embly; but not in <HI>&s;en&s;u divi&s;o,</HI> every one apart, for if they di&s;&s;ent in their voices from the major part of the A&s;&s;embly, they <HI>feed</HI> no Church at all, at lea&s;t <HI>actually,</HI> and in <HI>actu exercito,</HI> how&s;oever they may be &s;aid to <HI>rule</HI> them all, that be &s;ubject to that A&s;&s;embly, <HI>potentia, &amp; in actu &s;ignato.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>5. The whole collective, or combined Presbyterie, or Elder|&s;hip, being-taken collectively, or as combined, ruleth many Particular Churches, that are &s;ubject unto it. I &s;ay being taken, as combined or <HI>collectiv&egrave;;</HI> for if the Presbyters of the A&s;&s;embly be taken <HI>di&s;tributiv&egrave;;</HI> they are not an A&s;&s;embly, not a Collecti|on, or Combination of Presbyters <HI>formally,</HI> but &s;everall Pres|byters apart, and divers unities, which are the matter of this combination, and con&s;ociation in the A&s;&s;embly.</ITEM>
<ITEM>6. Tho&s;e whole combined Presbyteries, <HI>qua tota, &s;ed non qua tataliter con&s;iderata,</HI> as whole, or totals, but not con&s;idered totally, feed in any Particular Churches: The fir&s;t part is certain, for they judge of Points of Doctrine, and Di&s;cipline already, revealed in Holy Scripture, and give us new Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Laws of things indifferent, and &s;o Teach, and Rule the Churches, which is nothing el&s;e but to Feed them.</ITEM>
<ITEM>7. Yet the&s;e combined Presbyteries being con&s;idered totally, <HI>viz.</HI> according to every re&s;pect, every part, every modification, and determination they can have, rule them not; for every one of the Combined Presbyteries have not this Power; For as we have &s;aid, 2.3 4. or 5, <HI>&amp;c.</HI> may di&s;&s;ent from the major part, and in that ca&s;e they rule not in the A&s;&s;embly, muchle&s;&s;e rule they out of the A&s;&s;embly, being con&s;idered, as Materiall parts thereof, and the rea&s;on is becau&s;e, <HI>Non quic quid convenit Toti per accidens, aggregato, confu&s;o, vel ordinato, id convenit &s;ingulu partibus;</HI> it is not needfull that what&s;oever belongeth, or is attributed to the collective body, &s;hould be attributed to every part thereof, &s;o ten is twice five, which cannot be &s;aid of five, which is a part of ten; for it is not twice, but once five.</ITEM>
<ITEM>8. Neither can the&s;e combined Presbyteries, or Elder&s;hips
<PB N="35" REF="21">taken materially. 1. <HI>i.e.</HI> before their combination <HI>feed</HI> many Churches, as when they are combined; for in that &s;en&s;e they are not <HI>formally</HI> a combination, or a collective body, but the <HI>matter</HI> thereof, and therefore to them cannot belong that, which belongeth unto the collective body <HI>formally,</HI> or in vertue of its forme.</ITEM>
<ITEM>9. The collective, or combined body of divers Presbyteries feeds not many reall Particular Churches <HI>in actu exercito,</HI> as if they exerci&s;ed actually the act of feeding them in a particular way, as their Particular, and Ordinarie Mini&s;ters do; but <HI>in actu &s;ignato,</HI> in &s;ignifying and repre&s;enting unto them all, in vertue of their Commi&s;&s;ions, by their Judgements, and Laws, what &s;hould be done by them all; which the&s;e Particular Mi|ni&s;ters do in <HI>actu exercito,</HI> and in a more &s;peciall way: And the rea&s;on of this is, becau&s;e, if it were not &s;o we &s;hould con|found the charge of combined Presbyteries, with that of one Presbyter.</ITEM>
<ITEM>10. This Propo&s;ition may yet receive this &s;ence; All the combined Presbyteries feed all the particular Churches, that they repre&s;ent. 1. All the Presbyters together feed, and rule all Churches together as combined. 2. In this combination, or collection of Presbyters, or Elders, every one of the Pres|byters, or Elders, feedeth his own Church. 3. All the col|lective body of combined Elders feed every Church apart; as we &s;aid before. 4. Every Presbyter, or Elder in this com|bination ruleth all Churches, as we have declared it al&s;o.<NOTE PLACE="marg"><HI>1</HI> Eth. ad Nicomach. c. <HI>1.</HI></NOTE> So the Philo&s;ophers in expounding that Maxime, <HI>Bonum e&s;t, quod omnia appetunt,</HI> that is good which all things de&s;ire, give us almo&s;t the like interpretations, <HI>viz.</HI> 1. All good things taken collectively, are tho&s;e, that all de&s;irers taken collectively do de|&s;ire. 2. That every one in this collection of de&s;irers de&s;ireth his own good in the collection of all good; as a man, mans good; a hor&s;e, that which is good for a hor&s;e, <HI>&amp;c.</HI> 3. That the whole collection of de&s;irers de&s;ireth every good, as it &s;erveth for every part, and &s;o for the totall, or whole, that con&s;i&s;teth of the parts. 4. That every de&s;irer apart de&s;ireth, or loveth the whole collection of good, in&s;omuch as in that collection of good, it findeth its own good.</ITEM>
</LIST>
<PB N="36" REF="22">
<P>But none of the&s;e &s;en&s;es approved by us, can &s;erve our Bethren. More might here have been &s;aid, and I hope that others, God willing, &s;hall &s;ay more; But this may &s;uffice for one Annotation, and I am a&s;&s;ured, will &s;ufficiently di&s;&s;olve all their Arguments hitherto, founded upon this Propo&s;ition.</P>
<P>About the end of this 15 &sect;. Ye &s;ay <HI>[That this challenge of all &s;pirituall power from Chri&s;t, had need have a cleer pattent from Chri&s;t,]</HI> and that noted by a Particular Parenthe&s;is, as very con&s;iderable; &s;o had your Independent, and Omnipotent power within your Particular Congregations: Neither do our Synods challenge all power, but a Mini&s;teriall Power, &s;uch as we have already expounded: Neither needs it any <HI>Pattent</HI> expre&s;ly, and formally from Chri&s;t: It &s;ufficeth that it have one from Na|ture, for that &s;ufficeth to binde us all unto obedience; for Chri&s;t as Mediator, and head of the Church is not repre&s;ented unto us in Scripture as Author of Nature, but of Grace, <HI>For the Law was given by Mo&s;es, but grace, and truth came by Je&s;us Chri&s;t,</HI> who is Mediator of a better Covenant; Neither came he to abrogate, or de&s;troy, but to fulfill, and to accompli&s;h the Law; The Author of grace po&s;eth not, but pre&s;uppo&s;eth the Law of Nature; And yet we can &s;hew a <HI>Pattent</HI> for it, not onely from the Law of Nature, which &s;hould &s;uffice, but al&s;o from the Law of Grace, in the Old, and New Te&s;tament.</P>
<P>Immediately after ye &s;ay, That nothing was written upon this Subject before the Books &s;et forth by two Divines of <HI>Scot|land,</HI> one of <HI>England,</HI> and others of <HI>Holland.</HI> Here ye mi&s;take, for we can produce you &s;undry others of good note, here Prin|ted at <HI>London;</HI> we are &s;orry ye have not &s;een them, or di&s;dained to read them. If there were not many written before tho&s;e, it was in pittie of your afflictions, whereunto good Divines would not adde new affliction; Neither thought they your Partie &s;o con&s;iderable; Neither were your Opinions much known or publi&s;hed abroad, being onely written in Engli&s;h, and not in Latine, except by one, or two of your Divines, for any thing I know: Neither thought they that ye were &s;o aver&s;e from their Di&s;cipline, as ye appear in this A&s;&s;embly, but that ye &s;uffered only for not conforming your &s;elves unto Epi&s;copall
<PB N="37" REF="22">Government: But whatever they have written, I know not what this can &s;erve to the purpo&s;e, unle&s;&s;e it be to declare, That what&s;oever helps ye had heretofore, yet ye were de&s;titute of tho&s;e writings, whereby ye might have received farther light concerning Presbyteriall Government; and I pray God ye make good u&s;e of them.</P>
<P>In the 16. &sect;. at the end of the 16. <HI>Pag.</HI> Ye travell to re|move an Objection, <HI>viz. That in Congregationall Government</HI> (&s;uch as is among&s;t you) <HI>there is no allowed &s;ufficient remedy for mi&s;carriages, though never &s;o gro&s;&s;e; no relief for wrongfull Sen|tences, or Per&s;ons injured thereby; no room for Complaints: No Powerfull, or Effectuall means to reduce a Church, or Churches, that fall into Here&s;ie, or Schi&s;me, &amp;c.</HI></P>
<P>To avoid this Objection, ye relate us an Hi&s;tory &sect; 17. and what ye did upon &s;uch an emergent ca&s;e: But ye &s;hew us no Law, that ever ye had among&s;t you, whereby ye might bring any remedie again&s;t &s;uch a mi&s;carriage before that it fell out. 2. Neither read we of any &s;uch Law, or remedie in your Books, before this. 3. Your Divines, and the Members of your Churches, with whom we conver&s;ed, &s;hewed no remedie among&s;t you for &s;uch inconveniencies. 4. They gave us no an&s;wer unto this Objection, &s;ave onely this, <HI>That God hath ordained no remedies in &s;uch Ca&s;es;</HI> Yea, that if Churches &s;hould fall away from Chri&s;t, and with the Jews, call him an Im|po&s;tor, and the Trinitie with <HI>Servet</HI> a three headed Cat, and deny the Incarnation of the Son of God, they &s;hould be tole|rated; Yea more, That the Civill Magi&s;trate &s;hould puni&s;h no man for his Religion, be it never &s;o bad, or bla&s;phemous; and that it mu&s;t be left to God; And this giveth us rea&s;on to think, That the&s;e Rea&s;ons, within the&s;e two yeers, have made you to refine your Opinion, and to mould &s;ome new Solutions, and to &s;uite your Opinions more clo&s;e to the current of the time, then you were wont to do. If therefore we &s;peak after them, it is their fault, and not ours; it may be, that your Opinion be not common to you all, but to you five alone.</P>
<P>The &s;um of the Hi&s;tory is, A Mini&s;ter was &s;uddenly de|po&s;ed by his Flock, whereupon &s;ome Churches did take offence, and all their Churches con&s;ented in this Principle,
<PB N="38" REF="23"><HI>That Churches,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">1 Cor. 10.32. 1 Tim. 5.22.</NOTE> <HI>as well as particular men, are bound to give no offence, neither to Jew, nor Gentile, nor the Churches of God they live among:</HI> Item, <HI>That in vertue of the &s;ame, or like Law of not partaking in other mens &s;ins, the Churches offended, may, and ought, upon the Impenitency of tho&s;e Churches, per&s;i&s;ting in their errour, and mi&s;carriage, to pronounce that heavy &s;entence again&s;t them, of withdrawing, and renouncing all Chri&s;tian Communion with them, untill they do repent; And further to declare, and pro|te&s;t this, with the cau&s;es thereof, to all Chri&s;tian Churches of Chri&s;t, that they may do the like.</HI></P>
<P>In this Narration it appeareth. 1. That this Church offending, before this emergent Ca&s;e, knew not &s;o much, for if &s;he had, it is not credible, that &s;he would, again&s;t all charitie, and the common order of all Churches, have committed &s;o great a &s;candall.</P>
<P N="2">2. This remedie is not &s;ufficient, nor &s;atisfactory. 1. Be|cau&s;e all Churches, according to your Tenets, be equall in Au|thoritie, Independent one of another, and <HI>par in parcm non habet Imperium,</HI> none hath power, or Authoritie over his equall; how then could any Church binde another to any &s;uch account, but out of its freewill, as a partie may do to its partie.</P>
<P N="3">3. Becau&s;e &s;ince other Churches were, or pretended to be offended in &s;uch a proceeding, they could not judge in it; for then they &s;hould have been both judge, and partie in one cau&s;e, which cannot be granted to tho&s;e, that have no Autho|ritative Power one over another, as when a private man offend|eth the State, and we our God.</P>
<P N="4">4. What if many Churches, yea all the Churches, &s;hould offend one, &s;hould that one Church gather all the re&s;t together, judge them all, and in ca&s;e of not &s;ubmitting them&s;elves to her judgement, &s;eparate her &s;elf from them all? If &s;o, we &s;hould have Separations, and Schi&s;mes enough, which &s;hould be con|tinued to all Po&s;teritie to come.</P>
<P N="5">5. What if Churches were &s;o remote one from another, that they could not ea&s;ily meet together upon every occa&s;ion? Then there &s;hould be no remedy, or at lea&s;t no ea&s;ie remedy.</P>
<P N="6"><PB N="39" REF="23">6. What if the Offence were &s;mall, &s;hould &s;o many Churches for every trifle gather together, and put them&s;elves to &s;o great co&s;t, and trouble?</P>
<P N="7">7. What if the Churches in their Judgements &s;hould differ one from another, in &s;uch a ca&s;e &s;hould they all by Schi&s;mes &s;eparate them&s;elves one from another?</P>
<P N="8">8. This &s;ort of Government giveth no more Power, or Authoritie to a thou&s;and Churches over one, then to a Tincker, yea to the Hangman over a thou&s;and, for he may de&s;ire them all, out of charitie, to give an account of their Judgement, in ca&s;e he be offended by them; Neither &s;ee I what more our Bre|thren grant to all the Churches of the World over one.</P>
<P>But the Presbyteriall Government is &s;ubject to none of the&s;e inconveniencies, for the collective, or combined Elder&s;hip, having an authoritative Power, all men, and Churches thereof, are bound by Law, and Covenant to &s;ubmit them&s;elves there|unto: Every man knoweth their &s;et times of meeting, where|in &s;undry matters are di&s;patched, and all things carried by plu|ralitie of voices, without any Schi&s;me, or Separation.</P>
<P N="9">9. This Government is a Power, wherein the Partie is judged if he will, and &s;o the judgement of the Judges &s;u&s;pended upon the judgement of the Partie judged, which is mo&s;t ridi|culous, without any example in Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall, or Civill Ju|dicatories; a judgement indeed not very unlike to that which is related of a merry man, who &s;aid he had the be&s;t, and mo&s;t obedient wife of the whole World, becau&s;e (&s;aith he) &s;he will|eth nothing but what I will, and as all men wondred at it, (knowing her to be the mo&s;t di&s;obedient) yea (&s;aith he) but I mu&s;t fir&s;t will what &s;he willeth, el&s;e &s;he willeth nothing, that I will.</P>
<P N="10">10. This &s;ort of Government is unju&s;t, and unrea&s;onable, for not onely the Partie judgeth its Partie, but al&s;o it inflicteth the &s;ame puni&s;hment, <HI>viz.</HI> Separation, upon all offending Churches, what ever be the offence, great, or &s;mall in ca&s;e of Non-&s;atisfaction, whereas all puni&s;hments &s;hould be com|men&s;urate unto the &s;everall offences.</P>
<P N="11">11. And &s;o ye &s;eem to approve the opinion of the Stoicks, who held all &s;ins to be equall, &s;ince ye inflict the &s;ame puni&s;h|ment upon them all.</P>
<P N="12"><PB N="40" REF="24">12. Not onely this Di&s;cipline cannot ea&s;ily be put in exe|cution in great Kingdoms, as <HI>England,</HI> wherein all the Churches offended, cannot &s;o ea&s;ily meet together, but al&s;o 13. Be|cau&s;e the per&s;on offended after he hath repre&s;ented his grievan|ces unto one Church, and that Church having received &s;atis|faction, it may go to another, and that Church likewi&s;e having received &s;atisfaction, it may go to another, and &s;o continually in <HI>infinitum</HI> to the Worlds end, evermore taking tho&s;e Churches for the Partie that judge it, which is mo&s;t ab&s;urde and fooli&s;h.</P>
<P N="14">14. What if the Partie offended be poor, and have not the means to po&s;t up and down from Neighbour-Church to Neighbour-Church, to pray them to make the offending Church to give an account of her Judgement, muchle&s;&s;e to attend up|on their uncertain conveniencie: Here will be found true, <HI>Pauper ubique jacet,</HI> whereas in Presbyteriall Government the Partie offended may ea&s;ily be redre&s;&s;ed, and get &s;atisfaction, as not having need &s;o to po&s;t up and down, to be at &s;o great charges, or to attend their conveniencie, for by a &s;imple Ap|peal he may binde the Church offending, to appear at the day appointed.</P>
<P N="15">15. What if there &s;hould fall out an hundred &s;uch Offences in a &s;mall time? Mu&s;t &s;o many Churches evermore gather together for every one of them apart?</P>
<P N="16">16. What if Churches be poor, and cannot be at &s;o great expence? Then in that ca&s;e, it &s;hould &s;eem, there is no order to meet with Offences.</P>
<P>And as for tho&s;e precepts, 1 <HI>Cor.</HI> 10. and 1 <HI>Tim.</HI> 5. The fir&s;t of them is not a Rule of Government, or ruling of the Church, but a generall command, common to all Chri&s;tians, whereby the Apo&s;tle forewarnes the <HI>Corinthians</HI> in things indifferent, not to give any occa&s;ion of Offence unto the Church of God, or to any other; but therein to comply with all men, as he doeth him&s;elf: From whence ye cannot draw a Rule, or Law of <HI>ruling</HI> the Church, or how the Church &s;hould take order with &s;uch Offenders; &s;o that it &s;heweth, indeed, every mans dutie towards the Church, in things indifferent; but not the Churches dutie towards every one of them, in judging or
<PB N="41" REF="24">ruling. Ye might as well have proved it from this Principle, <HI>Fly from all evil;</HI> or from that, <HI>We mu&s;t love God above all things, and our Neighbour as our &s;elves:</HI> neither &s;ee I any greater connexion that it hath with the one, then with the other. And truely I cannot &s;ufficiently admire, how out of that Principle, <HI>Give no offence,</HI> ne <HI>to any man,</HI> ye can inferre this conclu&s;ion, <HI>Ergo,</HI> a Church offended may make a Church offending to give an account of her judgement before all the world; and in ca&s;e of impenitency, pronounce a Sentence of withdrawing, and renouncing all Chri&s;tian Communion with her; and further to declare it to all other Churches.</P>
<P>No more can it be inferred of the other, <HI>viz. Be not parta|kers in other mens &s;ins;</HI> for the Apo&s;tle there giveth <HI>rules</HI> about the Vocation of Mini&s;ters, forbiddeth <HI>Timothy</HI> to receive any man ra&s;hly into the Mini&s;tery, lea&s;t in &s;o doing he be the cau&s;e of an unlawfull Vocation, becau&s;e, &s;aith he, <HI>ver&s;.</HI> 24. their &s;in, and incapacity will &s;oon appear to all men. But how is it po&s;|&s;ible out of this to &s;pin out the former Couclu&s;ion?</P>
<P>&sect; 18. <HI>Pag.</HI> 17, ye prove your former Conclu&s;ion thus: 1. For that ye &s;aw <HI>no further authority in Scripture in proceed|ings purcly Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall, of one or many &s;i&s;ter Churches towards another whole Church, or Churches offending.</HI> 2. <HI>Becau&s;e no other Authority can rationally be put in execution without the Magi&s;trates power.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> 1. Ye &s;aw no more in Scripture; yea, but &s;aw ye your own Conclu&s;ion in Scripture? 2. Truely we &s;ee no Word of God for it; and if we take it not upon your word, we &s;hall never take it. 3. If ye &s;ee no Scripture for it, yet others may &s;ee. 4. Ye may, if ye will, &s;ee it in the ordinary Practice of the Church of the Jews in the old Te&s;tament, which is not abrogated in the New, &s;ince it is not Ceremoniall, but ground|ed in the Law of Nature: Ye may &s;ee it in the Hi&s;tory of the New Te&s;tament, in the judgement given out at the Synod of <HI>Hieru&s;alem,</HI> concerning the bu&s;ine&s;&s;e of <HI>Antiochia;</HI> which I hope, ye &s;hall &s;ee cleerly demon&s;trated to you by a better hand, before it be long.</P>
<P N="6">6. It may be proved by the Law of Nature, which is a <HI>prae|cognitum</HI> to Scripture, and &s;uppo&s;ed by Scripture; for <HI>Grace</HI>
<PB N="42" REF="25">is not <HI>de&s;tructory</HI> of <HI>Nature,</HI> but a <HI>Super&s;tructory</HI> above <HI>Na|ture:</HI> So that when Scripture containeth nothing contradicto|ry to the Dictats of <HI>Nature,</HI> we are bound to believe them, un|le&s;&s;e we will misbelieve God, who is no le&s;&s;e the Author of <HI>Nature,</HI> and of the Dictats thereof, then of <HI>Grace.</HI></P>
<P N="2">2. Becau&s;e no <HI>other Authority can rationally be put in execu|tion, without the Civill Magi&s;trates power.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> 1. Our Brethren here, as every where el&s;e, &s;tand very &s;tiffly to Negations; They never prove any po&s;itive Do|ctrine; and it is known in the Schools, how ea&s;ie a thing it is to deny all things, and to prove nothing: If they had that to prove, wherein they agree with us, I &s;uppo&s;e they &s;hould have more to do, then we to prove that, wherein they di&s;agree from us.</P>
<P>But to take away all mi&s;takes, and captious Eva&s;ions, we &s;uppo&s;e that our Churches arrogate to them&s;elves no Imperiall, or Magi&s;teriall, but onely a Mini&s;teriall Power, or Authority. 2. That it is meerly Spirituall, con&s;i&s;ting 1. in the Creation, Su&s;|pen&s;ion, and Depo&s;ition of Church-Officers. 2. in determining matters of Doctrine. 3. in making of Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Laws, con|cerning things indifferent. 4. in Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Cen&s;ures, as in Su&s;pen&s;ion, Excommunication, <HI>&amp;c.</HI></P>
<P>They prove, That no more can rationally be put in execu|tion, <HI>viz.</HI> then to call an offending Church to an account; and in ca&s;e of her impenitency, to declare it to all other Churches.</P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> We deny the A&s;&s;umption. They prove it, for that Chri&s;t gave no power to Churches to excommunicate their neighbour Churches.</P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> 1. This is again another mi&s;take in our Brethren, for they &s;uppo&s;e, that we excommunicate whole Churches, which we never do. 2. Neither believe I, that they can bring us any examples of it: The rea&s;on why we do not &s;o, is, Becau&s;e whole Churches ordinarily among&s;t us, contemn not the &s;upe|riour Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Power, <HI>viz.</HI> of Synods, being bound by their Oath, and Covenant, to ob&s;erve, and maintain the Order of the Church. 3. And therefore we have no Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Laws concerning &s;uch ca&s;es, for <HI>Lex e&s;t ordinatio rationis,</HI> and Laws are not made of things that never fall out, or of things
<PB N="43" REF="25">that fall out extraordinarily, but of things that are ordinary 4 Much le&s;&s;e think I, that ever any &s;uch ca&s;e did fall out in any one of the Reformed Churches. <HI>Item,</HI> it is another mi&s;take, to &s;uppo&s;e, that there is no Excommunication, but in giving the offender over to Satan: That is indeed the highe&s;t degree of Excommunication, but not all the degrees of it; for there is another le&s;&s;e, and inferiour, <HI>viz.</HI> in &s;eparating him from Ec|cle&s;ia&s;ticall Communion: And &s;o it is yet another mi&s;take in you to think, that in declaring your non-Communion with other Churches, ye do not excommunicate them; for what is Excommunication, but a privation of communion; the very word it &s;elf teacheth us all this.</P>
<P N="6">6. If any &s;uch Ca&s;e &s;hould extraordinarily fall out, how can it be denyed, but that the particular Church offending might be excommunicated by the re&s;t of the Churches offended, if the offence &s;hould de&s;erve it. 1. For we finde nothing in Scrip|ture to the contrary. 2. For there is the &s;ame rea&s;on for the Excommunication of whole Churches, as of particular per|&s;ons, <HI>viz.</HI> the taking away of &s;candall, and the conver&s;ion of the &s;inner, 1 <HI>Cor.</HI> 5.5. 2 <HI>Cor.</HI> 2.7. 2 <HI>The&s;.</HI> 3.14. 1 <HI>Tim.</HI> 1.20. and that &s;uch a contagion infect not others, 1 <HI>Cor.</HI> 5, 6, 7. And if a particular man may be excommunicated for denying, and bla&s;pheming of Chri&s;t, wherefore &s;hall not a particular Church be excommunicated for the like &s;in? Neither can their number and con&s;ociation excu&s;e them, but rather aggravateth the &s;in; for the more offenders there be, the greater is the of|fence, and the greater &s;hould the puni&s;hment be.</P>
<P N="3">3. If a Church compounded of ten per&s;ons may excom|municate four of their own number, wherefore al&s;o may not ten thou&s;and Churches excommunicate this incon&s;iderable Church, compounded of ten per&s;ons, for the &s;ame rea&s;ons that it excommunicateth four per&s;ons? hath God given more power to ten per&s;ons over four, then to all the per&s;ons, and Churches in the Kingdom, yea in all the Chri&s;tian world, over the&s;e mi&s;erable, and wretched per&s;ons, who (it may be) de|ny the Trinity, the Incarnation of the Son of God, and main|tain all &s;ort of impieties?</P>
<P N="4">4. If God in Heaven, and in his Scripture declare a Church
<PB N="44" REF="26">excommunicated, wherefore &s;hall not his Churches upon Earth al&s;o declare it excommunicated, when they learn it in his Word? Are not the Churches of God as well bound to ra|tifie his Sentence here upon Earth, as he to ratifie theirs in Heaven?</P>
<P N="5">5. We have &s;ome examples of it in the Old Te&s;tament; for the people of God (&s;ay &s;ome of our Divines) excommu|nicated <HI>Amalck;</HI> for proof whereof, they bring the <HI>Targum, Cant.</HI> 2. <HI>Contriverunt Amalek per diram imprecationem, They brui&s;ed Amalek by the fearfull cur&s;ing of the Lord.</HI> So did they the <HI>Samaritans,</HI> becau&s;e of the building of their Temple upon the Mount <HI>Garizim.</HI> They brought (as <HI>Dru&s;ius,</HI> and after him <HI>Weem&s;e,</HI> relate it) 300 Prie&s;ts, 300 Trumpets, 300 Books of the Law, and 300 Boyes; They blew with Trumpets, and the Levites &s;inging, accur&s;ed the <HI>Cutthaans</HI> in the Name of <HI>To|tragammaton,</HI> or <HI>Jehova,</HI> and with cur&s;es both the &s;uperiour, and inferiour hou&s;e of Judgement; and they &s;aid, <HI>Cur&s;ed is be, who cateth the bread of the Cutthaean.</HI> The&s;e Cur&s;es they wrote upon Tables, and &s;ealed them, and &s;ent them thorow all <HI>I&s;rael,</HI> who multiplied al&s;o this great <HI>Anathema</HI> upon them; from whence proceeded a great hatred betwixt them, as we reade in the Go&s;pel.</P>
<P>If in vertue of a &s;mall offence one Church may pronounce that dreadfull Sentence of non-Communion, again&s;t many Churches, wherefore may not many Churches pronounce Sen|tence of great Excommunication again&s;t one &s;mall Church, for a great &s;in? &s;ince <HI>cre&s;centibus delictis cre&s;cunt poenae.</HI></P>
<P>Be&s;ides all this, I deny the con&s;equence; for howbeit God had not ordained Excommunication, <HI>viz.</HI> the greater, which here ye under&s;tand, yet might there be &s;ome other remedy found by the light of Nature.</P>
<P>But ye adde, <HI>p.</HI> 18. That your Sentence of non-Commu|nication will be as effectuall as the greater Excommunica|tion.</P>
<P>This cannot be, 1. Becau&s;e, if the offender have any grace, the greater will terrifie him more. 2. Becau&s;e in your way the Sentence may &s;eem unju&s;t, in puni&s;hing all offences, and Offenders, greater and &s;maller with the like Spirituall penalties.
<PB N="45" REF="26">3. Your way cannot &s;o well awe Churches, and keep them in their duties; for &s;ince ye attribute no authoritative power, or authority to all the Churches of Chri&s;t over any particular Church, but judge them all to be equall among&s;t them&s;elves, and one to all; as if a part were equall to its totall, and <HI>pars e&s;&s;et aequalis Toti, &amp; Totum non e&s;&s;et majus quilibet &s;u&acirc; parte,</HI> as if the part were equall to its whole, and the whole were no greater then its part, <HI>viz.</HI> a whole mans body then his toe; a particular Church may think her &s;elf no ways bound to obey any other Church, or Churches: and much le&s;&s;e will ten Churches think them&s;elves bound to obey one; for Obediecce is a vertue in Inferiours towards their Superiours: But if all Churches be equall, there can neither be Superiours, nor In|feriours, and con&s;equently no obedience, or di&s;obedience.</P>
<P N="4">4. If a particular Church, in your way, de&s;ire to be obey|ed by fourty Churches, pretending her &s;elf to be offended by their proceedings, they may think her bold, in calling them to an account, and that the &s;pirits of Prophets &s;hould be &s;ubject to Prophets, one rather to twenty, or two thou&s;and, then twen|ty, or two thou&s;and to one.</P>
<P N="5">5. In our way, a Church offending may e&s;teem her offence greater, and fear it more, &s;ince &s;he may judge her &s;elf to offend two Authorities, 1. that of God, and 2. that which he hath given unto the Church: but in yours &s;he cannot think her of|fence &s;o great, &s;ince &s;he conceives her &s;elf to offend one au|thority, or authoritative Power onely, <HI>viz.</HI> that of God; for ye acknowledge no authoritative power in the Church, or Churches, and &s;o your way breedeth a plain contempt of all Church Authority.</P>
<P N="6">6. In denying an authoritative power, the offender may think you too bu&s;ie bodies in intermedling your &s;elves with other folks matters, which concerns you not &s;o much; where|as, if ye granted an authoritative power unto her, it &s;hould be her own proper bu&s;ine&s;&s;e, in vertue of her authoritative power received from God.</P>
<P>So al&s;o our way is more efficacious in the Churches of|fended; 1. in breeding a greater dete&s;tation of &s;in: 2. in ma|king them to &s;hun and avoyd more the company of the
<PB N="46" REF="27">offender. 3. in making them to conceive the Sentence to be more ju&s;t, <HI>&amp;c.</HI></P>
<P><HI>Item,</HI> if this your way be as efficacious, ye need no other power, in your particular Congregations, over particular per|&s;ons; a &s;imple admonition, without any authoritative power, may &s;uffice you.</P>
<P>Ye yet &s;ay, That your way is <HI>more brotherly</HI> in proceeding without an <HI>Authoritative power.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> God in the Old Te&s;tament ordained an Authoritative power in the Church, and yet they were all Brethren; and he knew well enough what power was convenient for Brethren.</P>
<P N="2">2. So likewi&s;e in particular Congregations we are all Bre|thren, neither yet will ye bani&s;h out of them all Authority.</P>
<P N="3">3.<NOTE PLACE="marg">2 Kin 6.21. 1 Cor 14, 15 2 Cor. 6 13. and 12.14. Gal 4 19. 1 The&s; 2.11 1 Tim. 1.2. <HI>Tit.</HI> 1.4. Phil 2.10. 1 Ioh. 2.1.28 and 3.7 and 4.4.</NOTE> The Mini&s;ters, and the Elders are not onely our Bre|thren, but al&s;o our Fathers; <HI>Ergo,</HI> they mu&s;t as well u&s;e pater|nall authority over us, as brotherly charity towards us.</P>
<P N="4">4. So al&s;o combined Presbyteries, or (as it were) Fathers of &s;imple Presbyteries, becau&s;e of their greater power to judge.</P>
<P N="5">5. The like of this Government hath never been heard of in the world, neither in State, nor Common-wealth before; and therefore &s;eemeth it to us to be repugnant unto the Law of Nature; for what el&s;e is the Law of Nature, but the common con&s;ent of all men? How ab&s;urd therefore is that Government, &s;o de&s;titute of all authority? have the &s;heep as great authoirty, as the Sheepherd? if &s;o, it is as good to be a &s;heep as a Sheepherd.</P>
<P N="6">6. If an Authoritative power cannot hold in the Church, or among Churches, becau&s;e that we are all Brethren, and Si&s;ters, no more can it hold in the State betwixt King, and Subject; the father, and the &s;on; the ma&s;ter, and the &s;ervant; for we are all Brethren in Chri&s;t: &s;o this Foundation, or Ground-work, will de&s;troy all &s;ort of Politicall, and Dome|&s;ticall Authority. Our Brethren would do well al&s;o to con|&s;ider, whether their Grounds, or tho&s;e of our Government, will better con&s;i&s;t with the Authority of the civill Magi&s;trate; for, according to this rea&s;on, a King in a State &s;hould have no power at all over his Brother.</P>
<P N="7">7. In the State there be divers Judicatories, Superiour, and Inferiour, wherein the Superiour hath an authoritative power
<PB N="47" REF="27">over the inferiour. <HI>Ergo,</HI> in the Church, &s;ince there is the &s;ame rea&s;on for both, <HI>viz.</HI> reparation of the offence taken at inferiour Judicatories.</P>
<P>But becau&s;e ye will &s;eem to be much addicted to the civill Magi&s;trate, as if your Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Government were alto|gether &s;ubordinate unto his power, and blame us, as not gi|ving him his due, which ye note by a particular Parenthe&s;is, as if ye would have us to take particular notice of it; Therefore, before we end this Section, we &s;hall be very willing to do it. In &s;aying that the Presbyteriall Excommunication is no more effectuall then your Sentence of non-Communion, without the Magi&s;trates Power, ye adde this Parenthe&s;is <HI>[To which we give as much, and [as we think] more then the Principles of the Presbyteriall Government will &s;uffer them to yeeld.]</HI> By who&s;e coun&s;ell, or for what end this Parenthe&s;is is in&s;erted, and &s;uch a compari&s;on made. I know not; If ye have no Poli|ticall ayms, I am a&s;&s;ured ye comply very much with Policy. If ye grant him &s;o much, ye would do well to declare how much, and wherein, and not to feed him with generalities, and Pla|tonicall Idees, as ab&s;tract here from all matter, as ye profe&s;&s;ed formerly your Church-Government was ab&s;tracted from all other Governments. It is a Maxime in Philo&s;ophy, and in Rhetorick both, That <HI>Sermones generales non movent;</HI> and prai&s;ed be God that the King and Parliament are wi&s;e, and will not feed upon &s;o ab&s;tract forms. As for us, &s;ince ye keep your &s;elves upon &s;uch generalities, it is impo&s;&s;ible to us to an&s;wer any thing in particular, unle&s;&s;e we gue&s;&s;e at your meaning: In generall therefore we &s;ay, 1. That among&s;t men well bred, all compari&s;ons are odious. 2. That either ye give unto the civill Magi&s;trate onely his due, or &s;omething more: if onely his due, ye lay a very heavie a&s;per&s;ion upon all Presbyterians, as if they were not good Subjects, in denying him a part of his due: If more, who gave you the power to do &s;o? 3. Ei|ther ye grant him more in Civill, or in Spirituall matters: In Civill matters ye cannot; for ye can grant him no more, then he hath by the Laws of the Land, whereunto we are all equally &s;ubject; and therefore mu&s;t grant him as much one, as ano|ther: If in Spirituall matters, we grant him his externall
<PB N="48" REF="28">power, as we declared in the beginning. And for intrin&s;ecall Spirituall power, 1. It is not in your power to grant him any at all; neither can ye give him more Spirituall obedience then Scripture permitteth you, or give him a part of the Spiri|tuall power that ye have received of God; for that were, to lay upon another the burden, that God hath laid upon you, and &s;o &s;erve God by a Proctor. 2. It is onely in God, who is King in this Spirituall Kingdom, Ma&s;ter in this Hou&s;e, and a Father in this Family, who can give power therein to any man: we dare not be &s;o bold: If ye pretend to do it; I &s;ay with the Comick Poet, <HI>de te largitor puer,</HI> be liberall upon your own pur&s;e. 4 If ye will do &s;o, look how Authorita|tive is your power, who take Authority over Gods Ordi|nance, and di&s;po&s;e of it, as if it were your own: &s;o do not the Presbyterians. 5. The Civill Magi&s;trate acknowledgeth him&s;elf to be a Politicall, and no Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall per&s;on, &s;ince he is neither Pa&s;tor, nor Doctor, nor Ruling Elder in Chri&s;ts Church; and therefore arrogateth no Spirituall Authority to him&s;elf 6. We de&s;ire to know of you, Brethren, what ye under&s;tand here by the Magi&s;trate, Whether the Supreme, or Subaltern? If the Supreme, whether the King, or Parliament? and principally at this time: If the Subaltern, we ask of you, Whether every Ju&s;tice of Peace &s;hall, or can judge of all Ec|cle&s;ia&s;ticall matters? And if he cannot, whether he can be a competent Judge? 7. What if the Civill Magi&s;trate be a Pa|pi&s;t? what if &s;ome of the Kings Councell be Papi&s;ts, or Hete|rodox, as &s;ome in the beginning of this Parliament were? will ye grant that they judge in matters of Religion? So the Turk, the Antichri&s;t, and Pagans, &s;hall judge in matters of Religion, among&s;t their Prote&s;tant Subjects: If &s;o, our Prote&s;tants in <HI>France,</HI> in <HI>Polonia,</HI> and otherwhere, are in a very fair way; Its pity but &s;uch a Maxime &s;hould have been publi&s;hed in Queen <HI>Maries</HI> time, and at Saint <HI>Bartholomews</HI> day in <HI>France,</HI> at that Butchery, or Ma&s;&s;acre of Prote&s;tants. 8. The Apo|&s;tle, 1 <HI>Cor.</HI> 6. findes fault with the Chri&s;tians, that did plead before Infidels in civill matters: what then would he not have &s;aid, if godly men would have pleaded before them, and &s;ub|mitted matters of Religion unto their judgement? 9. This
<PB N="49" REF="28">power that ye grant to the Magi&s;trate, is either Internall, or Externall, in regard of the Church: If Externall we grant it, as well as ye: If Internall; then he mu&s;t be an Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Per&s;on. And then 10. It &s;hould follow, That a Soveraign Prince &s;hould as well be Soveraign in the Church, as in the State; and &s;o Internall head of both; which is derogatory to Chri&s;ts Royaltie, as our Doctors have &s;undry times cleerly de|mon&s;trated it again&s;t the Je&s;uites, and other Papi&s;ts. 11. Wo|men, that are commanded to be &s;ilent in the Church, &s;hould rule it, and command men in it, &s;ince they may be Soveraign Princes in it, and over it and &s;o <HI>Legli&s;e tomberoit on quenvillo:</HI> And if it be replyed, wherefore may they not as well rule the Church, as the State, as &s;ome Independenters, and &s;ome Wo|men, here in <HI>London,</HI> have maintained, in pre&s;ence of their Preacher, uncontradicted by him, or any of that Profe&s;&s;ion there. I an&s;wer, 1. Becau&s;e the Church or Kingdom of Hea|ven, is not a Kingdom of this Word. 2. Becau&s;e God forbid|eth the one in Scripture, but not the other. 12. Chri&s;ts Kingdom, <HI>viz.</HI> His Church which is not of this World, &s;hould be &s;ub|ject to the Kings and Kingdoms of this World. 13. Yea, the Apo&s;tles &s;hould have been &s;ubject unto worldly Kings in Church Government, and &s;o they &s;hould not have been the fir&s;t Officers in the Church; but the King &s;hould have been above them, which is no le&s;&s;e, then cleerly to contradict. Saint <HI>Paul, Eph<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;.</HI> 4. where he calleth them the fir&s;t. 14 So wo Idly Princes could not be judged by any Church-Officers, for if they were &s;upreme Judges, inferiour Officers could not judge them. 15. A King u&s;urping, or invading a Kingdom, &s;hould u&s;urpe Soveraigntie in the Church. And 16. if he were a Tyrant, and obtained it <HI>jure belli,</HI> by the Sword, he &s;hould make him&s;elf Head of the Church by the Sword, which &s;eem|eth a very &s;trange Conque&s;t of Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Authoritie. 17. If a Prince &s;hould buy a Principalitie, and the Soveraigntie thereof, he &s;hould con&s;equently buy the charge to be &s;upreme Ruler, or to be above the Church, as ye call it; &s;o it &s;hould be a good Conque&s;t, by good Simony. 18. So if a wicked Prince, &s;hould invade a good Prince, again&s;t Gods Will, then he &s;hould be Head of Chri&s;ts Church, or &s;upreme Judge over it, again&s;t
<PB N="50" REF="29">Chri&s;ts Will, and that by an ordinary way, yea, <HI>jure divino,</HI> by Chri&s;ts Ordinance; if <HI>jure divino</HI> they be above the Church, as ye &s;ay. 19. If a Prince were perpetually mad, his per|petuall madne&s;&s;e &s;hould no more hinder him from being &s;u|preme Judge in the Church, then Prince in the State. 20. If a Prince were &s;upreme Judge alone, then &s;hould he alone judge, yea, without his Coun&s;ell, as &s;ome Princes do arrogate unto them&s;elves; and there &s;hould be the &s;ame Di&s;putes about the Princes &s;upreme Authoritie in the Church, that are about it in the State. 21. God will have no man to be a Judge in his Church, but after examination, 1 <HI>Tim.</HI> 3. muchle&s;&s;e a &s;upreme Judge in it: But Kings are not examined, whether they have the capacitie to rule, or not; and if the Prince be a little childe, how can he have the capacitie, or abide an examination. 22. If a King have any other, or more intrin&s;ecall Authoritie over the Church, then all Prote&s;tant Churches in <HI>France, Holland,</HI> and <HI>Scotland;</HI> grant him, or then we have declared, we pray you &s;hew us, what it is, and wherein it con&s;i&s;teth: Whether he hath it in qualitie of a King, of a Chri&s;tian, or of a Chri&s;ti|an King? If he hath it, in qualitie of a King, or as a King, then all Kings have it, yea, <HI>N<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter">ro,</HI> and <HI>Julian</HI> the Apo&s;tate; <HI>Nam quod alicui comunit qu&agrave; tali communit omni.</HI> And then I pray you, whether ye will admit &s;uch a Prince to judge of the Controver&s;ies of your Religion? If in qualitie of a Chri&s;tian, then all Chri&s;tians have it, for the &s;ame rea&s;on, yea every Cobbler as well as any King, or Prince, &s;ince they be all Chri|&s;tians. 3. If as a Chri&s;tian Prince, then all Princes &s;hould have it: But &s;o it is not; For what if we had a Chri&s;tian Prince, who were a Lutheran, an Anabapti&s;t, a Sociman, or a Papi&s;t? I cannot beleeve that ye would permit &s;uch Chri&s;tian Princes to judge, muchle&s;&s;e to be &s;upreme Judges in your Re|ligion: If ye &s;ay that ye under&s;tand an Orthodox Prince? What if he had one, or two errours, would ye yet permit him to judge of Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall matters? Then who &s;hould judge, whether he were Orthodox, or not? Whether ye, or we? What if there were a hundred divers Sects in any Kingdom, Then he could onely judge of that Sect, which he &s;hould pro|fe&s;&s;e, and of no other: Or if he &s;hould judge of all, he &s;hould
<PB N="51" REF="29">condemn them all, but his own. If by the &s;upreme Magi&s;trate, ye under&s;tand a Parliament, then to judge every one of your differences, when ever any man challengeth the Church of an unju&s;t judgement, or appealeth from it, we mu&s;t gather a Parliament: Which if the King and Parliament finde expedi|ent, I have nothing to &s;ay again&s;t it; yet every man may judge, whether the di&s;patch of bu&s;ine&s;&s;e can be &s;o quick and cheap, as in the Presbyterian way? What if Parliament men be of diffe|rent Religions, &s;hall they of one Religion judge of the other Religion.</P>
<P>I might bring more Arguments, and pro&s;ecute them all more fully; but this may &s;uffice for Annotations: Onely this I adde. 1. That it is not equitable that ye five be beleeved upon your &s;imple word, in &s;o great an A&s;per&s;ion, as ye lay upon &s;o many Churches, yea all the be&s;t Reformed Churches, without any proof: If heretofore they gave you the right hand of fellow&s;hip, I doubt if after &s;o criminall an accu&s;ation, they will continue it to you any longer. And here I cannot &s;ufficiently admire you, in pretending your Church Govern|ment to be &s;o compleat, and perfect, and yet &s;tand in&s;omuch need of the Civill Magi&s;trate.</P>
<P N="2">2. I pray the Reader to con&s;ider diligently. &sect; 20. <HI>Pag.</HI> 20, 21. How by that Speech it appeareth. 1. That that Church pretended to have offended, did arrogate in di&s;po&s;ing of her Mini&s;ter, a power altogether independent from all other, both of the Civill Magi&s;trate, and of all other Churches; Other|wayes that expre&s;&s;ion &s;hould have been impertinent. <HI>viz. That it was the mo&s;t to be abhorred Maxime, that any Religion hath ever made profe&s;&s;ion of; and therefore of all other, the mo&s;t contra|dictory, and di&s;honourable to that of Chri&s;tianitie, that a &s;ingle, and particular &s;ocietie of men, profe&s;&s;ing the name of Chri&s;t, and pretending to be endowed with a power from Chri&s;t, to judge them, that are of the &s;ame body, and &s;ocietie within them&s;elves, &s;hould further arrogate unto them&s;elves an exemption from giving an account or being cen&s;urable by any other, either Chri&s;tian Magi|&s;trate above them, or Neighbour Churches about them.</HI> For if &s;he pretended no &s;uch power and exemption, to what purpo&s;e &s;uch an expre&s;&s;ion?</P>
<P N="2"><PB N="52" REF="30">2. That in this Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Judgement, that is intrin&s;e|call to the Church, they acknowledge the Civill Magi&s;trate to be above them, but all the Churches of the Chri&s;tian World nothing but about them, whereof much may be &s;aid. Here ye &s;ymbolize with <HI>Era&s;tus</HI> in many things.</P>
<P N="3">3. Ye may collect, that &s;uch a mo&s;t abhorred Maxime was not the Maxime of that Church alone, but of &s;ome others al&s;o, for it is not credible, that &s;he would have &s;tood out alone in a Maxime &s;o repugnant to the Tenets of all other Churches, and after wards &s;ubmitted her &s;elf unto their judgement.</P>
<P N="4">4. Ye may &s;ee by the event and &s;ucce&s;&s;e of this bu&s;ine&s;&s;e, a correction of that Maxime, wherewith they were tinctured before.</P>
<P N="5">5. How God in his mo&s;t wi&s;e Providence has forced tho&s;e good men, out of meer nece&s;&s;itie, to come neerer unto Presbyteriall Government, then formerly.</P>
<P N="6">6. But we know not, whether they of <HI>New-England,</HI> will &s;tand fa&s;t to them in this deci&s;ion.</P>
<P>If we knew all the Circum&s;tances of that proceeding, we might (it may be) &s;ay much more, then upon &s;uch a &s;uperficiall, and unwilling Relation as ye make, we can &s;ay here.</P>
<P>Again, I pray you note, That they acknowledge their Churches to be bound to give an account, and to be cen&s;urable by the Chri&s;tian Magi&s;trate, and Neighbour Churches, in their judgements. From whence I infer: <HI>Ergo,</HI> Their power is not full perfect, and compleat, within them&s;elves, but receives &s;ome correction, and perfection from that of the Civill Magi|&s;trate above them, or Neighbour Churches about them; But what is this, but an authoritative power to correct them, and to inflict on them &s;pirituall puni&s;hments. <HI>viz.</HI> Cen&s;ures, in commanding them to &s;atisfie the Partie offended, and to con|&s;e&s;&s;e their fault: Neither do the Presbyterians pretend to in|flict any corporall puni&s;hment, or pecuniary mulcts, &s;ince the aym of their Government is &s;pirituall, <HI>viz.</HI> To &s;ave the &s;oul, not to kill the body, or empty the pur&s;e by catching mens money.</P>
<P>&sect;. 22. <HI>Pag</HI> 22. Ye give an account of your proceedings &s;ince your return to your Countrey: And here again, ye terme
<PB N="53" REF="30">the Reformation of the Prote&s;tant Churches by the name of Calvinian, as if this name in this matter plea&s;ed you above all others; yet will we not retaliate it unto you, in calling your Churches Goodwinians, Nyans, Bridgians, Burroughe&s;ians, Symp&s;onians, or Good-Ny Bridg-Burrough-Symp&s;onians, for we take no plea&s;ure in &s;uch fictions.</P>
<P>Afterwards ye give your five judgements, about that Re|formation, <HI>viz. That our Churches &s;tand in need of a further Reformation.</HI> 1. But &s;tand not yours in need of &s;ome further Reformation al&s;o? 2. Neither is it in que&s;tion, whether our Churches &s;tand in need of any further Reformation? But whe|ther they &s;tand in need of that, which ye call <HI>Reformation?</HI> And if it be not rather a <HI>Deformation,</HI> then a <HI>Reformation</HI> of the Church of Chri&s;t?</P>
<P>The Rea&s;ons of this your judgement, are grounded upon meer Po&s;&s;ibilities, and generalities as we &s;hall &s;ee God willing hereafter.</P>
<P>The fir&s;t is, <HI>Becau&s;e it may be thought, that they coming new out of Popery, and the founders of that Reformation not having Apo&s;tolique infallibitie might not be fully perfect the fir&s;t day.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> 1. It may be, but <HI>a po&s;&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter"> ad <GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="MURP" EXTENT="1 letter"> non valet con&s;equentia:</HI> 2. It followeth not, it may be: <HI>Ergo,</HI> It is. Neither will ye permit us to argue in this manner, Ma&s;ter <HI>Goodwin,</HI> Ma&s;ter <HI>Nays, &amp;c.</HI> opinion may be fal&s;e: <HI>Ergo,</HI> It is fal&s;e. 3. Muchle&s;&s;e may it be thought, or imagined: <HI>Ergo,</HI> It is &s;o. For we think all your Tenets, wherein ye di&s;&s;ent from us, are fal&s;e, and un|true; Neither will ye grant it for all our thoughts: No more will we grant you what ye pretend for all your thoughts, un|le&s;&s;e ye bring us &s;ome better rea&s;on; for many mens thoughts be erroneous, as yours in this particular. 4. Your Argument is <HI>a Genere ad Specicm affirmativ&egrave;,</HI> ye argue affirmatively from a generalitie to a particular. <HI>viz.</HI> It might not be fully perfect or imperfect: <HI>Ergo,</HI> In this or that point it was not perfect, or imperfect. 5. Neither is it needfull to a perfect Reforma|tion, in Doctrine, or Di&s;cipline, that we have an Apo&s;tolicall perfection, that is Per&s;onall, or tyed unto our Per&s;on; but Scripturall, <HI>viz.</HI> Revealed in Scripture, which we have, not of one, but of many Prophets, Evangeli&s;ts, and Apo&s;tles.
<PB N="54" REF="31">6. This expre&s;&s;ion of yours, <HI>viz. Might not be fully perfect the fir&s;t d<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="2 letters">,</HI> is ambiguous, and may be taken either <HI>Negative</HI> in putting the negation <HI>(not)</HI> before the principall Verbe, <HI>viz. might;</HI> or <HI>Infinite,</HI> in putting of it, after the Verbe, <HI>might,</HI> before the infinitie Verbe, <HI>be:</HI> In the fir&s;t way, the &s;en&s;e of it is this,</P>
<P><HI>They that come</HI> new from Popery, without Apo&s;toli|call infallibility, cannot be perfect the fir&s;t day, or it was not po&s;&s;ible they &s;hould be perfect the fir&s;t day, and &s;o it is evident|ly fal&s;e; for it &s;hould imply a contradiction that any man, or Church could have a perfect Doctrine, or Di&s;cipline without an Apo&s;tolicall infallibilitie, or a long time.</P>
<P>In the &s;econd way, the &s;en&s;e is this,</P>
<P>They that come new from Popery, without Apo&s;tolicall infallibilitie may not be perfect, or it is po&s;&s;ible they be not perfect, the fir&s;t day; and &s;o it is true: But as it is po&s;&s;ible they be not perfect; &s;o is it po&s;&s;ible by Gods mercy they be perfect: And &s;o the Argument will proceed <HI>a po&s;&s;e ad e&s;&s;e,</HI> whereof Lo|gicians &s;ay, <HI>Non valet con&s;equentia.</HI> So your Argument is naught: Of the&s;e two Propo&s;itions the fir&s;t is Negative, and the la&s;t Infinite: They differ as,</P>
<Q><L>Non po&s;&s;ibile e&s;t e&s;&s;e</L>
<L>Po&s;&s;ibile e&s;t non e&s;&s;e.</L></Q>
<P>The one hath the Mood, or Modification Negative, the other the Subject, or <HI>Dictum</HI> Negative; the one is true, and the other fal&s;e, as ye may &s;ee in the&s;e Examples.</P>
<LIST>
<ITEM>It was not po&s;&s;ible to <HI>Adam</HI> before his fall to fall: Fal&s;e.</ITEM>
<ITEM>It was po&s;&s;ible to <HI>Adam</HI> before his fall not to fall: True. So.</ITEM>
<ITEM>It is not po&s;&s;ible that <HI>Peter</HI> &s;leep: Fal&s;e.</ITEM>
<ITEM>It is po&s;&s;ible that <HI>Peter</HI> &s;leep not: True.</ITEM>
</LIST>
<P>Neither doth time contribute &s;o much, neither hath it any influence upon true Religion, which is a gift of God; Faith is not acquired by our labour, but infu&s;ed into our under&s;tanding by Gods Mercy. And yet we have had more time, and a greater number of able men then ye, to perfect our Reforma|tion. And as it was po&s;&s;ible, that the Reformation of
<PB N="55" REF="31">our Church was not perfect the fir&s;t day. So may it be po&s;&s;ible that yours be not perfect, neither the fir&s;t, nor the la&s;t day.</P>
<P>But ye grant us, &sect; 5. <HI>Pag.</HI> 4. That the fir&s;t Reformers in Prote&s;tant Churches had a mo&s;t happy hand in the Reformati|on of Doctrine, and that in the beginning, and without any Apo&s;tolicall infallibilitie; wherefore I pray then, might they not al&s;o have it as well in Di&s;cipline, or Government? I remit the Reader to that Section and my Annotation thereupon.</P>
<P N="2">2. Your &s;econd Rea&s;on is grounded not onely upon po&s;&s;i|bilities, but al&s;o upon hope, for <HI>it may be hopefully conceived</HI> (&s;ay ye) <HI>that God in his infinite mercy and purpo&s;e re&s;erved, and provided &s;ome better thing for this Nation, when it &s;hould come to be reformed, that the other Churches might not be made</HI> perfect without it, <HI>as the Apo&s;tle &s;peaks.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> 1. This is but <HI>a po&s;&s;ibile e&s;t e&s;&s;e,</HI> it may be, <HI>quod nihil ponit in e&s;&s;e,</HI> that maketh nothing to be: The que&s;tion is not what may be; but what is in effect. 2. And as it may be, &s;o may it not be. 3. It is not &s;o much as a may be of any thing, that is to be, but a may be, or a po&s;&s;ible hope of a thing, that may be: O how far is this Rea&s;on from proving the thing to be. 4 And as for that Text of the Apo&s;tle, <HI>Heb.</HI> 11.48. Ye abu&s;e mightily the place of Scripture, or are abu&s;ed; for it is not to be under&s;tood of you, or of your, or our Reformation; but of the coming of Chri&s;t, and the vocation of the Gentiles; for how&s;oever the Fathers in the old Te&s;tament received the Promi&s;es; yet received they not the accompli&s;hment, or per|formance of them, <HI>viz.</HI> Chri&s;t manife&s;ted in the fle&s;h, who is that better thing, re&s;erved unto us, whereof the Apo&s;tle &s;peak|eth there, otherwi&s;e we &s;hould have peri&s;hed.</P>
<P>&sect; 23, 24 25, 26, 27. Containeth an Enumeration of our Brethrens grievances, whereof they have mentioned many heretofore. 1. The <HI>mi&s;taking, and mi&s;apprehen&s;ion</HI> of their O|pinions, <HI>wherein they might &s;eem to differ.</HI></P>
<P>We have an&s;wered already. 1. It is not a mi&s;take, nor mi&s;apprehen&s;ion to take and apprehend an opinion as it is pro|pounded by the Partie, as we have done. 2. We an&s;wer, That if we mi&s;take, or mi&s;apprehend any opinion, it is not that of all Independents. 3. It is a great mi&s;take in you to imagine;
<PB N="56" REF="32">that ye be all of one opinion; For ye five, who are the Authors of this Book cannot agree among your &s;elves, how muchle&s;&s;e with others. 4. And we are a&s;&s;ured, that ye cannot but mi&s;take one another. 5. Here al&s;o mu&s;t be noted your Parenthe&s;is <HI>[wherein we might &s;eem to differ.]</HI> Then your differences from us were not reall, but apparent: If &s;o, wherefore then will ye not really agree, and joyn your &s;elves in Union and Commu|nion with us? And truely &s;o it is, either they are not reall, or they are really ridiculous.</P>
<P><HI>Pag.</HI> 23. Your &s;econd grievance is, that ye are grievou&s;ly calumniated with reproaches of Schi&s;me: Schi&s;me is a Per|tinacious Separation from the true Church after &s;ufficient con|viction: And as Here&s;ie, as Here&s;ie, is repugnant to Faith &s;o is Schi&s;me to Charitie; the one quitteth the unitie of the Faith, the other the union in Charitie: And as Here&s;ie is evermore accompanied with pertinacy after &s;ufficient conviction: So is Schi&s;me al&s;o.</P>
<P>If therefore the Synod, or any other A&s;&s;embly, or any of your Brethren &s;hould convict you &s;ufficiently, and afterwards, ye &s;hould &s;eparate your &s;elves, or de&s;ire a <HI>&s;eparation</HI> from us, I think that no man could deny you to be Schi&s;maticks; neither beleeve I, in &s;uch a ca&s;e, that ye would, or could hone&s;tly deny i<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> your &s;elves; But &s;o long as the Synod, or &s;ome others does it not, I dare &s;ay nothing: As for my &s;elf, I beleeve truly, that ye be very Learned, Pious, and hone&s;t Men; and how&s;oever ye may fail by infirmitie, yet beleeve I not, that ye erre out of malice; and con&s;equently, that ye are no Schi&s;maticks hither|to. And I hope, and am con&s;ident, that God will not permit, that &s;o good, and godly men fall away from his Church. And this I &s;ay by morall probabilitie, becau&s;e of the good opinion I have conceived of you, by good mens relations, and &s;ome ob&s;ervation of your carriages, in the &s;mall conver&s;ation I have had with &s;ome of you. If therefore any men out of too much zeal, or others out of malice, have uttered any &s;uch a&s;per&s;ion, it is in your power, by entertaining of a Fraternall union with us to give them the ly, as I hope in Gods mercy ye will do.</P>
<P>&sect;. 24. <HI>Pag.</HI> 24 25. But ye prove, That ye are not or can|not be Schi&s;maticks by three Rea&s;ons: The fir&s;t is, If ye be
<PB N="57" REF="32">Schi&s;maticks, or culpable of Schi&s;me, <HI>Either it mu&s;t relate,</HI> &s;ay you, <HI>to a differing from the former Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Government of this Church e&s;tabli&s;hed, and then who is not involved in it, as well as we? Or to that Con&s;titution, and Government, that is yet to come; and untill that be agreed on, e&s;tabli&s;hed, and declared, and actually exi&s;t, there can be no guilt, or imputation of Schi&s;me from it:</HI> But none of the&s;e are true, as ye have confirmed it: <HI>Ergo.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> How&s;oever I hold you not yet for Schi&s;maticks; yet can I not think, that ye prove it well: For that di&s;-junctive propo&s;ition may be denyed, as not containing a full enumera|tion of all the Cau&s;es, or Rea&s;ons of Schi&s;me; for a Church may be Schi&s;maticall, not onely for her Separation from this, or that Church, but much more for her Separation from all Churches, as your Accu&s;ers may &s;ay of you, <HI>viz.</HI> That ye have quitted the Communion of all other Churches, as well Pro|te&s;tants, as Papi&s;ts; and that in ca&s;e ye could not, or would not joyn in union with Churches ruled by Epi&s;copall Govern|ment, ye might have joyned your &s;elves with other Reformed Churches, with which the Church of <HI>England</HI> entertained Union, and Communion; &s;o that the greater your Separation was, the greater was your Schi&s;me. Yet can it not be &s;aid, that it was a Schi&s;me <HI>formally,</HI> but <HI>materially,</HI> for it had not the <HI>e&s;&s;entiall forme,</HI> or that which we conceive, as the <HI>e&s;&s;entiall forme</HI> of a Schi&s;me, <HI>viz. Conviction, and Pertinacy,</HI> without the which <HI>Schi&s;me</HI> no more can be made up, then <HI>Here&s;ie:</HI> For it is <HI>Forma quae dat e&s;&s;e rei,</HI> the Forme that giveth being to a thing. Onely it had the <HI>matter,</HI> or <HI>materiall cau&s;e</HI> of a Schi&s;me, <HI>viz.</HI> The Separation from all Churches, which cannot make up a Schi&s;me <HI>formally,</HI> no more then a mans body alone, which is his matteriall cau&s;e, can <HI>formally</HI> make up a Man.</P>
<P N="2">2. Men may yet be called Schi&s;maticks, <HI>Materialiter &amp; Dispo&s;itiv&egrave;, matterially,</HI> and <HI>dispo&s;itively,</HI> or <HI>as having the dispo|&s;ition to Schi&s;me,</HI> when they cannot actually re&s;i&s;t an actuall Government, but are re&s;olved without any &s;ufficient cau&s;e to re&s;i&s;t, or controle that Government, that they judge, will be e&s;tabli&s;hed by them, who according to Gods ordinary Providence have power to do it. And &s;o your Partie may yet
<PB N="58" REF="33">&s;ay, that ye be culpable, and guiltie of Schi&s;me <HI>materially,</HI> and by way of <HI>di&s;po&s;ition,</HI> if they &s;ee you aym at any Toleration, which is the next way to Separation: So they may An&s;wer unto the confirmations of both the parts of your di&s;-junctive Propo&s;ition in denying both your A&s;&s;umptions; for many there be, who &s;eparated not them&s;elves from all Prote&s;tant Churches, and that are not minded to oppo&s;e the forme of Government, that is to be e&s;tabli&s;hed, much le&s;&s;e to be &s;uiters for Toleration.</P>
<P>Your &s;econd Rea&s;on to free your &s;elves from the calumny of Schi&s;me, is this in &s;ub&s;tance. &sect; 24. <HI>Pag.</HI> 24.</P>
<LIST>
<ITEM>If ye had been guided by the &s;pirit of Schi&s;me, ye had made up a Partie, when ye had the occa&s;ion.</ITEM>
<ITEM>But &s;o did ye not, when ye had the occa&s;ion: <HI>Ergo.</HI></ITEM>
</LIST>
<P>Ye prove the connexion of your fir&s;t Propo&s;ition: Be|cau&s;e &s;uch are practi&s;es of tho&s;e, that are led by the &s;pirit of Schi&s;me.</P>
<P>Ye prove the A&s;&s;umption. 1. Becau&s;e, that how&s;oever, ye <HI>had great provocations, viz.</HI> 1. <HI>Mi&s;under&s;tandings of your opinions.</HI> 2. <HI>Incitements to this State, not to allow you the peace|able practi&s;es of your con&s;ciences, which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed you.</HI> 3. <HI>Calumnies in Print.</HI> 4. <HI>Heightned with this prejudice, that ye were a&s;hamed of your opinions, or able to &s;ay little for them.</HI> 5. <HI>Books printed again&s;t your opinions,</HI> yet ye did it not. 2. Becau&s;e, that having the occa&s;ion of <HI>manifold ad|vantages to make, and increa&s;e a Partie,</HI> ye <HI>have not in the lea&s;t &s;ort attempted it.</HI></P>
<P>Ye prove that ye had manifold advantages. 1. Becau&s;e <HI>ye found the &s;pirits of the people of this Kingdom, that profe&s;&s;e or pretend to the power of godline&s;&s;e, ready to take any impre&s;&s;ions, and to be ca&s;t in any mould, that hath but the appearance of a &s;tricter way.</HI> 2. <HI>Becau&s;e that the mi&s;ts gathered about you, be|gun to &s;catter.</HI> 3. <HI>Becau&s;e ye publi&s;hed not your opinions by Preaching, although ye had the Pulpits free; nor in Print, although the Pre&s;&s;es were more free, then the Pulpits.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> Your Partie will deny the A&s;&s;umption; for if ye, and the re&s;t of your Partie made it not up, how is it made up in this Kingdom?</P>
<PB N="59" REF="33">
<P>As for the proof of your Provocations: We have an|&s;wered already to the fir&s;t: The third and fourth, we allow it not, if any man hath done &s;o. To the &s;econd we &s;hall an&s;wer hereafter. And as for the fifth, good Sheepherds could not with|out an abominable prevarication, but write again&s;t yours, and all other mens <HI>Innovations,</HI> when they &s;aw &s;o many Sects mul|tiplied, and Woolfs creeping in &s;o fa&s;t into Chri&s;ts Sheep-fold, to devour the flock. 2. If ye blame our faithfull Mini&s;ters for maintaining the Truth already received, what &s;hall we &s;ay of your folks, who have fir&s;t publi&s;hed Books again&s;t the Truth. 3. What &s;hall we &s;ay of tho&s;e of your Colleagues, who heretofore preached your Tenets with great offence here in publike? And who &s;till run bu&s;ily up and down, to make Pro&s;elytes.</P>
<P>To the &s;econd proof your A&s;&s;umption.</P>
<LIST>
<ITEM>1. We have already an&s;wered, that it is made, but how we know not.</ITEM>
<ITEM>2. What were tho&s;e people that profe&s;&s;e, and pretend to any power of godline&s;&s;e, &s;o ready to take any impre&s;&s;ion, and to make a Partie, ye tell not? We wi&s;h to know, whether they be Browni&s;ts, Anabapti&s;ts, or of what other Sect?</ITEM>
<ITEM>3. Your Covenant obligeth you to declare it unto the Parliament however, ye reveal it not unto us.</ITEM>
<ITEM>4. Certainly true Profe&s;&s;ors of godline&s;&s;e are not &s;o &s;u&s;|ceptible of any impre&s;&s;ions, much le&s;&s;e to become factious.</ITEM>
<ITEM>5. And therefore ye adde well <HI>(or pretend)</HI> for &s;uch men <HI>pretend</HI> onely to <HI>godline&s;&s;e,</HI> but have renounced <HI>(in effect)</HI> the <HI>power</HI> thereof.</ITEM>
</LIST>
<P>Here we &s;ee, how&s;oever ye pretend not to be States-men, yet ye know as much of it as the Presbyterians.</P>
<P>Your &s;econd occa&s;ion was the <HI>di&s;&s;ipations of mists, &amp;c.</HI> If &s;o, and onely &s;o; then what needed this <HI>Apologeticall Nar|ration?</HI></P>
<P>&sect; 25. <HI>Pag.</HI> 25. To the third occa&s;ion, whether ye had the Pulpits &s;o free, or feared to have them le&s;&s;e free afterwards, I di&s;pute not, ye know that well enough: Onely this I know, That &s;ome of your Brethren having given them&s;elves libertie to &s;peak &s;omewhat freely in favour of your opinions, were
<PB N="60" REF="34">afterwards di&s;countenanced, and became more prudent, and circum&s;pect in venting of them&s;elves. If ye printed not your <HI>opinions,</HI> it may be, ye deal more prudently in teaching them in private, then in publi&s;hing them in Print. And here ye &s;hew how your Charitie is grown cold; for in the beginning when &s;o many <HI>mi&s;ts were gathered about you,</HI> for fear of Schi&s;me out of meet Charitie, ye ab&s;tained from writing, and now, when they are <HI>&s;cattered</HI> ye write.</P>
<P>Your third Grievance is the reproach of that <HI>proud, and in&s;olent title of Independency.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> Ye decline that proud Title, but will no wayes quit the thing &s;ignified by the Title, in that, ye maintain the <HI>Independency</HI> of every one of your Churches from all <HI>Eccle&s;ia|&s;ticall Authoritie,</HI> or <HI>Authoritative Power</HI> of any Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall A&s;&s;embly; yea, &s;ome of your Profe&s;&s;ion &s;ay, That it belongs not to the Magi&s;trate to puni&s;h any man for his Religion, be it never &s;o odious, and wicked, as we have heard from their own mouths. So that there is <HI>another new Independency.</HI></P>
<P>If it be replied here, That I did prove before, that ye ac|knowledge &s;ome Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Authoritie, whereunto your particular Churches are &s;ubject.</P>
<P>I an&s;wer, It is but by nece&s;&s;ary con&s;equence, that they mu&s;t hold it, and not <HI>interminis,</HI> or <HI>expre&s;ly</HI> that they beleeve it; for they deny <HI>interminis,</HI> what they mu&s;t grant <HI>by con&s;e|quence:</HI> It is drawn out of the eva&s;ions, that they bring again&s;t our Rea&s;ons, whereby, while&s;t they &s;eek to e&s;cape, they are catcht.</P>
<P><HI>Pag.</HI> 4. Your fourth Grievance, whereof ye complain, and bewall your &s;elves, is <HI>Browni&s;me together with all their Opi|nions,</HI> wherewith ye are traduced.</P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> But ye di&s;claim not <HI>Browni&s;me, and their Opinions,</HI> ab&s;olutely, but with a re&s;triction and <HI>&s;ecundum quid, viz. As they have &s;tated, and maintained them.</HI> 2. By another limitati|on, <HI>viz.</HI> That ye <HI>differ much from them,</HI> not <HI>in re, &s;ed in modo rei:</HI> It may be, ye hold, and maintain the &s;ame <HI>opinions,</HI> but not the <HI>&s;ame way.</HI> And yet ye &s;ympathize very much with them, in puining untoward names upon us, but not upon them.</P>
<PB N="61" REF="34">
<P>There al&s;o ye declare what ye <HI>confe&s;&s;e, and beleeve, viz. The trueth to lye in a middle way betwixt Browni&s;me, and the Authoritative Presbyteriall Government.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> But this is nothing, but your errour: Veritie con|&s;i&s;teth not in the middle of this, or that which ye imagine, but in a conformitie of our conceptions with their object, and due mea&s;ure; which in this matter, is onely Gods Word revealed in the holy Scriptures; and according to this rule I take Pres|byterian Government, rather to be the middle betwixt <HI>Popi&s;h Tyranny,</HI> and <HI>Independent Anarchy.</HI></P>
<P>&sect; 25. <HI>Pag.</HI> 25. Your fifth Grievance is <HI>Some incitements to this State, not to allow us</HI> (&s;ay ye) <HI>the peaceable practi&s;es of our Con&s;ciences, which the Reformed Churches abroad allow|ed us.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> If any man incited the State not to allow you a peaceable practi&s;e of your new Religion, they did according to their con&s;cience, as your <HI>New-England</HI> men do with tho&s;e of our Religion; and as &s;ome &s;ay, that &s;ome of you five would do with us.</P>
<P>Their Rea&s;ons might have been the&s;e.</P>
<LIST>
<ITEM>1. Becau&s;e it cannot but open a door to all &s;orts of erro|neous Opinions.</ITEM>
<ITEM>2. It is dangerous for the State, it may breed factions and divi&s;ions betwixt all per&s;ons of what&s;oever relation, betwixt the Magi&s;trate, and the Subject, the Husband, and the Wife, the Father, and the Son, Brethren, Si&s;ters, the Ma&s;ter, and the Servant; when the one is of one Religion, or Eccle&s;ia&s;ti|call Government, and the other of another, as ye have experi|mented: The Son may refu&s;e to receive any communion with the Father, and the Brother with the Brother, and &s;o di&s;&s;olve all naturall, civill, and dome&s;ticall bands of Societie.</ITEM>
<ITEM>3. No State in Chri&s;tendome, where there is one onely Religion e&s;tabli&s;hed, will admit the publike exerci&s;e of any other, or endure a Schi&s;me in that, which is already received: Wherefore then &s;hould it be done here?</ITEM>
<ITEM>4. If it be granted to our Brethren, I cannot &s;ee how it can well be denyed to other Sects.</ITEM>
</LIST>
<P>If it be &s;aid, That other Sects differ more from us, then
<PB N="62" REF="35">they do; it is all one, <HI>Magis &amp; minus non mutant Speciem,</HI> in matter of Toleration; for then all mu&s;t be tolerated, how&s;oever &s;ome more, &s;ome le&s;&s;e: And &s;ome of our Brethren grant all the Argument: And if we di&s;tingui&s;h &s;o, ye mu&s;t declare, and expound cleerly, what Sects, and what Opinions are to be tolerated, and what not, which will be a que&s;tion inextricable, which no mortall man, appearingly, is able di&s;tinctly to de|termine.</P>
<P>And &s;ome may &s;ay, The le&s;&s;e the difference be, the le&s;&s;e need is there for a Toleration to be granted to &s;uch a Sect: For the le&s;&s;e it be, the greater is the Schi&s;me.</P>
<LIST>
<ITEM>5. God in the Old Te&s;tament granted no Toleration of divers Religions, or Di&s;ciplines; and the New Te&s;tament re|quireth no le&s;&s;e union among&s;t Chri&s;tians, then the old among&s;t the Jews.</ITEM>
<ITEM>6. Either our Brethren do a&s;&s;ent to our Doctrine, and are re&s;olved likewi&s;e to a&s;&s;ent to the Di&s;cipline, which God wil|ling &s;hall be e&s;tabli&s;hed by common con&s;ent, or do not: If they grant the fir&s;t, what need they any other Toleration, then the re&s;t? If the &s;econd, it would be fir&s;t di&s;cu&s;&s;ed, wherein they are re&s;olved to di&s;&s;ent; and afterwards con&s;idered, whe|ther it be of &s;o great importance, that in con&s;ideration thereof, they dare not, in good Con&s;cience, entertain communion with us.</ITEM>
<ITEM>7. They are not pre&s;&s;ed to be Actors in any thing again&s;t their Con&s;ciences: <HI>Ergo,</HI> They need not to be &s;uiters for a Toleration; or if they be, it may ju&s;tly be refu&s;ed.</ITEM>
<ITEM>8. It is again&s;t the nature of the Communion of Saints, to live in Sects apart, without communicating at the Lords Table, which very hardly will be avoided, if Toleration be granted.</ITEM>
<ITEM>9. Becau&s;e the Scripture exhorts us evermore unto unitie, which cannot be ea&s;ily procured by a Toleration of Sects, which cannot but daily beget new Schi&s;mes and Divi&s;ions.</ITEM>
<ITEM>10. Becau&s;e there was greater difference among&s;t the Members of the Church of <HI>Corinth</HI> in the rim of Saint <HI>Paul,</HI> and yet they communicated together; yea, the Apo&s;tle exhorted
<PB N="63" REF="35">them unto mutuall communion, and forbearance of Sects, and Divi&s;ions.</ITEM>
<ITEM>11. Becau&s;e the Opinion of our Brethren &s;ymbolizeth too much with that of the Donati&s;ts, who &s;eparated them|&s;elves from other Churches, under pretext, that they were not &s;o holy as their own: Neither is it unlike to the Convents and Mona&s;teries among&s;t the Papi&s;ts; for as they all profe&s;&s;e one Doctrine with the Romi&s;h Church, and yet every Order hath its own Di&s;cipline; that of S. <HI>Francis</HI> one, that of S. <HI>Dominick</HI> another; and in every Order one Generall, and in every Mo|na&s;tery one <HI>Abbot, Prior</HI> or Pre&s;ident; So all your Churches be|leeve one Doctrine together with us, and every one of your Churches hath one Mini&s;ter, as their Convents a particular <HI>Abbot</HI> or <HI>Prior.</HI> Ye onely differ in this, That ye have no Gene|rall, or any thing an&s;werable thereunto to keep you in unitie and conformitie.</ITEM>
<ITEM>12. It is the Civill Magi&s;trates part to take away Here&s;ies, Super&s;titions, and Corruptions in manners after the examples of the Kings of <HI>Juda:</HI> Wherefore then is not his dutie like|wi&s;e to take away all Schi&s;mes, which are the high-way to Here&s;ie, and con&s;equently to deny Toleration, which is a way to both.</ITEM>
<ITEM>13. We have but one God, one Chri&s;t, and one Lord, one Spirit, we are one Body, we have one Faith, and one Bapti&s;m, whereby we enter into the Church: Wherefore &s;hall we not have one Communion, whereby to be &s;piritually fed, and one Di&s;cipline to be ruled by?</ITEM>
<ITEM>14. If Churches have Di&s;ciplines, or Governments dif|ferent in their <HI>Species,</HI> then the Churches mu&s;t be different in their <HI>Species</HI> al&s;o; for all Collective bodies, or Con&s;ociations that are governed, are differenced by their different Govern|ments, as we &s;ee in Civill Government, in the Con&s;titution, and Di&s;tinction of States, Kingdoms, and Republikes: Wherefore as many divers Governments, as there be in Churches, as many different <HI>Species</HI> of Churches mu&s;t we admit of, I &s;peak here of the Church con&s;idered according to her vi&s;ible forme, but the con&s;equent is fal&s;e, &s;ince there is but one Church. <HI>Ergo.</HI></ITEM>
<PB N="64" REF="36">
<ITEM>15. Neither Chri&s;t nor his Apo&s;tles, ever granted any Toleration to divers Sects and Governments in the Church; wherefore then will ye be Suiters for that, which they never granted?</ITEM>
<ITEM>16. Yea, your <HI>New-England</HI> men (<HI>who&s;e wayes and practi|&s;es in Government</HI> (ye &s;ay) <HI>are improved to a better Edition, and greater refinement,</HI> whom ye compare with our Father <HI>Abra|ham, Pag.</HI> 5. tolerated not their Brethren, who did hazard their lives in that voyage, but made them go again, as our Fa|ther <HI>Abraham,</HI> to &s;eek out &s;ome new Habitations in &s;trange Countreyes, yea, in &s;trange <HI>Wilderne&s;&s;es,</HI> for them&s;elves, and their &s;eed after them; yea, they would not &s;o much as &s;ome very godly and learned Divine relateth in his learned Book again&s;t Toleration) as receive &s;ome men, otherwi&s;e approved by them&s;elves, both for their life and Doctrine, to live in any cor|ner of <HI>New-England,</HI> how&s;oever here they were in danger to be per&s;ecuted for Non-conformitie; And that mee ly, becau&s;e they differed a little from them in point of Di&s;cipline. How then can our Brethren of that profe&s;&s;ion be Suiters for a Tole|ration in Old <HI>England,</HI> where they are no more per&s;ecuted, when as tho&s;e of their profe&s;&s;ion refu&s;ed it to tho&s;e of <HI>New-England</HI> in time of great per&s;ecution? Is it not to be feared, That if they had the upper hand over us here, as there, they &s;hould &s;end us all to &s;ome I&s;le of Dogs, as they have done others?</ITEM>
<ITEM>17. Be&s;ides all this, the Scripture forbiddeth all &s;uch To|leration,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Reve. 2 20 1 Cor 1.12.</NOTE> as that of <HI>Jezabel;</HI> There mu&s;t be no &s;uch &s;peeches among&s;t us, <HI>as I am of Paul, I of Apollos, I of Cephas;</HI> nor that &s;ome are <HI>Calvinians,</HI> as ye terme us, &s;ome <HI>Independenters,</HI> &s;ome <HI>Browni&s;ts,</HI> &s;ome <HI>Anabapti&s;ts, &amp;c.</HI> We mu&s;t all be <HI>Chri&s;ts,</HI> we mu&s;t all think, and &s;peak the &s;ame things, <HI>Ver&s;.</HI> 10. Other|wi&s;e men are carnall:<NOTE PLACE="marg">1 Cor. 3.3. 1 Cor. 11.16, 18, 19, 20. Heb 10.25. Gal. 5.12.</NOTE> Neither hath the Church of God a cu&s;tome to be contentious: Neither permitteth the Apo&s;tle Schi&s;mes: We mu&s;t not quit our mutuall meetings, as others do, and as mu&s;t be done in a publike Toleration. They that trouble the Church mu&s;t be cut off.</ITEM>
<ITEM>18. Such a Toleration cannot but expo&s;e our Churches unto the calumnies of Papi&s;ts, who evermore object unto
<PB N="65" REF="36">Prote&s;tants the innumerable number of their Sects, whereas they pretend to be nothing but one Church.</ITEM>
<ITEM>19. Of &s;uch a Toleration follows all we formerly dedu|ced out of <HI>Independency.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>20. If it be granted, it cannot but be thought, that it hath been granted, or rather extorted by force of Rea&s;on, and that all the A&s;&s;embly were not able to an&s;wer our Brethrens, where|as indeed their Opinion, and Demands are again&s;t all Rea&s;on, as &s;undry of them&s;elves could not deny, and had nothing to &s;ay, &s;ave onely that it was Gods Ordinance, which yet they never could &s;hew out of Gods Word: On the contrary, if it be refu&s;ed, it will help to confirm the Churches, and the people in the Truth.</ITEM>
<ITEM>21. Neither can it but overthrow all &s;ort of Eccle&s;ia&s;ti|call Government; for a man being cen&s;ured in one Church, may fly to another; and being again &s;u&s;pended in that other, from thence to another, and &s;o &s;corn all the Churches of God, and their Cen&s;ures; And &s;o this order by nece&s;&s;ary con&s;equence will breed all &s;ort of di&s;order.</ITEM>
</LIST>
<P>I omit here many other Rea&s;ons, taken
<LIST>
<ITEM>1. From the <HI>Efficient cau&s;e</HI> of Toleration, as they who can permit, or Tolerate Shi&s;mes: Whether mortal<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="KEYERS" EXTENT="1 letter"> men have re|ceived any power of God, either <HI>jure divino,</HI> or <HI>naturally</HI> to di&s;pence with Gods Ordinances, and to permit that which he forbiddeth.</ITEM>
<ITEM>2. From the <HI>object</HI> of it, <HI>viz.</HI> If it be good, or ill, for &s;uch as the <HI>object</HI> is, &s;uch mu&s;t the Toleration, or permi&s;&s;ion <HI>be.</HI></ITEM>
<ITEM>3. From the <HI>Forme, viz.</HI> If it be con&s;onant unto Scrip|ture, or not. For if it be not, it mu&s;t be ill, &s;ince Scripture mu&s;t be the rule of all acts of Chri&s;tian duties.</ITEM>
<ITEM>4. From the <HI>End,</HI> for if the <HI>End</HI> be ill, it is ill; yea, how&s;oever it be good, yet is it not good to permit ill for a good <HI>end,</HI> as the Apo&s;tle teacheth us; for how&s;oever God may do it, yet cannot we do it; For he who did draw light out of darkne&s;&s;e, can draw, good out of &s;in yea, more good out of &s;in, then is the ill that it containeth in it &s;elf; So cannot we.</ITEM>
<ITEM>5. From the <HI>Obligation that lieth upon us, to do all the good we can:</HI> and con&s;equently, not onely to forbear &s;in our &s;elves,
<PB N="66" REF="37">but al&s;o to hinder others from &s;in, &s;ince it &s;triketh at Gods honour, which we are bound to maintain again&s;t all men.</ITEM>
<ITEM>6. From the <HI>Obligation, that lieth upon us,</HI> not to be par|takers in other mens <HI>&s;ins, in approving,</HI> or not <HI>hindering them</HI> in, &s;o far forth as lieth in us; For the power of hindering &s;in, is not given us for nothing, but for its End, which is its Act, <HI>viz.</HI> To hinder it actually.</ITEM>
<ITEM>7. From the <HI>Ob&s;tatles;</HI> For God hath dealt &s;o mercifully with the tate here, that there is no Force greater then it &s;elf, to compell it, to permit, or tolerate many Sects, Shi&s;mes, or Here&s;ies; So that the fewer the Ob&s;tacles be found, the greater will the &s;in of a Toleration be found: But we fear to be to long upon this point.</ITEM>
</LIST></P>
<P>Your &s;ixth Grievance, <HI>Our &s;ilence was interpreted, that we were either a&s;hamed of our Opinions, or able to &s;ay little for them.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> If any man hath uttered any &s;uch expre&s;&s;ions out of malice, or contempt of your Per&s;ons, they are to be blam|ed: If out of zeal to the Trueth, and of the good Opinion they have of you, I beleeve ye will not blame them; for all good men e&s;teem you to be very godly men, and no men of learning know you; but they know you to be very learned men, as &s;ome of your Books te&s;tifie aboundantly: But if little can be &s;aid to the purpo&s;e, for that cau&s;e which ye main tain, what marvell is it, That ye can &s;ay little for it? Neither can hone&s;t men doubt, but an ill man can and will &s;ay more for it, then all ye &s;ive can &s;ay, &s;o &s;oon as ye have con&s;idered it more profoundly: And the better men ye be, the le&s;&s;e ye will have to &s;ay. Ye are not &s;o able to maintain an ill cau&s;e, as an ill man.</P>
<P>Your &s;eventh Grievance. <HI>Books have been written</HI> (&s;ay ye again) <HI>to prepo&s;&s;e&s;&s;e again&s;t what are pre&s;uppo&s;ed our Tenets.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> Not what are your five Teners, but of tho&s;e who have written upon that Subject; If yours be different from theirs, &s;o &s;oon as ye &s;hall cleerly declare them, they may re|ceive an an&s;wer; And therefore it was nor to <HI>prepo&s;&s;e&s;&s;e</HI> them, <HI>&amp;c.</HI> But to keep them in <HI>po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ion</HI> of the <HI>truth</HI> already re|ceived.</P>
<PB N="67" REF="37">
<P>Afterwards ye give Rea&s;ons of your &s;ilence. 1. <HI>Becau&s;e</HI> (&s;ay ye) <HI>it is the &s;econd blow, that makes the quarrell, &amp;c.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> 1. We are a&s;&s;ured that ye have given the fir&s;t, &s;econd, and third blow, as it may ea&s;ily appear by your Books, and Sermons here at <HI>London,</HI> as we have already an&s;wered. For the Books of the Divines that wrote again&s;t your Opinions, were onely An&s;wers unto Arguments of tho&s;e of your Partie. So then ye have made the quarrell. 2. This Rea&s;on, as it hindered you in the beginning, &s;o &s;hould it at this pre&s;ent.</P>
<P>Your &s;econd Rea&s;on is, <HI>Your con&s;cientious appreben&s;ion of the danger of rending the godly Prote&s;tant Party.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> Wherefore then did it not hinder you from Print|ing of this <HI>Apologeticall Narration?</HI> as we &s;aid before.</P>
<P>Your third Rea&s;on is, <HI>The conjurements of many Honour|able, Wi&s;e, and godly Per&s;onages of both the Hou&s;es of Parlia|ment.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> If their Conjurements have &s;o long been &s;o effectu|all with you, how have they been now of late &s;o inefficacious, that they could not hinder the Printing of this Book? How augment ye now this <HI>unhappy difference?</HI></P>
<P N="4">4. Rea&s;on. The <HI>Declarations of the Parliament about the &V;nion of Prote&s;tants again&s;t Popery, their re&s;pect to tender Con&s;ciences, as might prevent oppre&s;&s;ions which had formerly been.</HI></P>
<P N="5">5. Your Covenant. 6. And your duely re&s;pect to a peaceable Reformation. To the&s;e three, I an&s;wer as unto the third.</P>
<P N="7">7. <HI>The hopefull expectation of an happy latitude, and agree|ment.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> The agreement may be happy, if ye will, and &s;o ye may obtain what ye might hopefully expect. 1. For I hope ye &s;hall be freed from all oppre&s;&s;ions, like to tho&s;e ye formerly &s;uffered under. 2. That ye may po&s;&s;e&s;&s;e your Con&s;ciences in place. 3. That ye &s;hall not be compelled to any externall Confe&s;&s;ion, contrary to your pre&s;ent Tenets. 4. Much le&s;&s;e to be Actors in any thing again&s;t your Con&s;cience. And thus farre your <HI>hopefull expectation</HI> might have been well grounded. But if ye <HI>expected</HI> a <HI>Toleration</HI> for all Sects, or that we &s;hould
<PB N="68" REF="38">have received your Opinions, ye hoped more, then ye had ground for.</P>
<P>Now, whereas in the two la&s;t lines, ye <HI>&s;ubmit this De|claration of your judgement, to the due, and orderly agitation of this A&s;&s;embly; whereof</HI> (&s;ay ye) <HI>both Hou&s;es were plea&s;ed to make us Members.</HI></P>
<P>The Reader will do well to con&s;ider how cautiou&s;ly ye &s;peak here. 1. <HI>Ye &s;ubmit this Declaration of your judgement, not to the judgement of the A&s;&s;embly,</HI> as if the Spirit of Pro|phets &s;hould be &s;ubject unto Prophets; But onely to the <HI>Agi|tation of the A&s;&s;embly,</HI> and &s;o ye &s;eem no wayes minded to &s;ubmit your &s;elves unto the <HI>A&s;&s;emblies judgement,</HI> as all the re&s;t of the Members thereof, and of this Church too. 2. Neither &s;ubmit ye it &s;imply to the <HI>Agitation,</HI> but to the <HI>due and or|derly Agitation of this A&s;&s;embly,</HI> as if before ye had ob&s;erved &s;ome undue; or unorderly <HI>Agitation</HI> of bu&s;ine&s;&s;e in it, or feared it hereafter.</P>
<P>Truely this undue re&s;triction might very well have been omitted, for it is holden for a certain and undoubted Maxime among&s;t all Prote&s;tants, That the Church has no ab&s;olute power in her Judgements; That &s;he cannot obliege us to do any ill; And that we are not bound to obey her unju&s;t Ordi|nances, and Commands; But that it is better to obey God, then men.</P>
<P>This Submi&s;&s;ion is very feriall, and worthy to be pre&s;ented to &s;ome idle fellows: Ye will permit the A&s;&s;embly from Morning till Evening to agitate, and di&s;pute your Opinions, as if they had no other thing to do, neither here, or at home; A great <HI>&s;ubmi&s;&s;ion,</HI> indeed of your <HI>judgements,</HI> which ye can|not refu&s;e to the ordinarie&s;t Mechanick in the World; for &s;ince it is <HI>publiei juris</HI> publi&s;hed, they will a&s;&s;ubject your judgement unto theirs, by way of <HI>Agitation,</HI> or di&s;puting of it among&s;t them&s;elves, as much as all the Divines of <HI>England,</HI> yea, whe|ther ye will or not.</P>
<P>Again, Since both Hou&s;es were plea&s;ed to make you <HI>Mem|bers</HI> of that <HI>A&s;&s;embly,</HI> was not that a &s;ufficient Ju&s;tification, and Vindication of your Per&s;ons from all <HI>calumnies &s;pread again&s;t you,</HI> and already <HI>&s;cattered without &s;peaking a word for
<PB N="69" REF="38">your &s;elves?</HI> &sect; 24. <HI>Pag.</HI> 24. Truely it is to be &s;uppo&s;ed, that the two Hou&s;es would never recommend men thither, either ignorant, or vicious, but the learnede&s;t, and godlie&s;t of the Kingdom; &s;o this your Apology is un&s;ea&s;onable: Onely this needs an Apology, That being Members of the A&s;&s;embly, ye will not &s;ubmit your &s;elves unto the A&s;&s;embly of Divines, but take odde wayes, proper to you five alone, to publi&s;h parti|cular Apologies, and de&s;ire a particular Toleration, which no other Members of the A&s;&s;embly do. But as for this, <HI>tran&s;eat cum coeteris crroribus.</HI> It &s;ufficeth that ye &s;ee extraordinary te&s;timonies of the Parliaments, and A&s;&s;emblies mo&s;t tender affection towards you; how they have tolerated much in you, the like whereof hath not yet been tolerated in any Member, either of Parliament, or of the A&s;&s;embly; and all to the end, to cha&s;e away all pannick fears from your mindes, and pretend|ed <HI>di&s;advantages,</HI> which ye <HI>did forc&s;ee,</HI> &sect; 26.</P>
<P>&sect; 26. <HI>Pag.</HI> 28. How&s;oever ye commend much the Parlia|ment, and declare, That <HI>ye grant more to the Civill Magi&s;trate, then the principles of Presbyteriall Government will &s;uffer them to yeeld;</HI> Yet even here ye rap him over the Knuckles, as if in making you Members of the A&s;&s;embly, he &s;hould have been partiall, in placing you there with &s;o many <HI>di&s;advantages;</HI> yea (as ye &s;ay) <HI>And therein al&s;o upon all &s;orts of di&s;advantages, which we could not but fore&s;ee, both in number, abilities of learning, Authoritie, the &s;tream of publike intere&s;t, Tru&s;ting God both with our &s;elves, and his own Truth.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> I maintain that the Parliament has done you no wrong, for ye were not forced to &s;it there; If there be &s;o great di&s;advantages, ye might have cho&s;en, whether you would have &s;it there at all, or not. All rationall men think it a great favour, which ye e&s;teem &s;o great a <HI>di&s;advantage.</HI></P>
<P>And as for the Number. 1. Think ye that the Parliament ought to have put in &s;uch a Number of you, that agree not in your opinions among&s;t your &s;elves, as might have over-&s;wayed all the Divines of the Kingdom, to the end that ye might after|ward have compelled us all to quit the Kingdom, as your Friends of <HI>New-England</HI> have done to others? 2. Were ye to be compared in <HI>number</HI> with the re&s;t of the Divines in this
<PB N="70" REF="39">Kingdom, who are hundreds for one of you? Ju&s;tice con|&s;i&s;teth not in an <HI>Arithmeticall,</HI> but in a <HI>Geometricall proper|tion,</HI> which here has been ob&s;erved towards you; and that with more equitie then Ju&s;tice. 3. Neither did the Parliament hinder you, to call as many Divines of your Profe&s;&s;ion, as plea&s;ed you to con&s;ult with apart. 4. Neither need ye &s;o great a <HI>number</HI> in the A&s;&s;emblie; for ye &s;eem not (for any thing we can &s;ee) re&s;olved to &s;ubmit your &s;elves, or to acquie&s;&s;e with any pluralitie of voices, either of Parliament, or A&s;&s;emblie; wherefore then de&s;ire ye &s;o great a <HI>number?</HI></P>
<P>As for Abilities in Learning. 1. Ye might al&s;o have had with you, if it had plea&s;ed you, as many learned men as ye could finde. 2. Neither beleeve I, that any others of your Profe&s;&s;ion could prudently take &s;uch a bu&s;ine&s;&s;e in hand without you: Who ever knows you, knows well ye want no abilities to di&s;pute your opinion in any A&s;&s;emblie in <HI>Europe:</HI> Men of learning, and of wi&s;edome therefore think, that you &s;peak this rather out of mode&s;tie, then otherwi&s;e.</P>
<P>What ye under&s;tand by <HI>Authoritie,</HI> I know not; it can|not be Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall, &s;ince ye acknowledge none in the Church: Then it mu&s;t be politicall, and namelie, that of the King, and Parliament, &s;ince that no other at this pre&s;ent, have power over you; and then I could wi&s;h, ye had &s;poken more con|&s;iderately.</P>
<P><HI>Publike intere&s;t,</HI> Either this mu&s;t be taken of <HI>publike in|tere&s;t</HI> in <HI>Religion;</HI> and then it 1^o, or &s;hould be our &s;ole aym; and it is no <HI>di&s;advantage</HI> for you, That both the Parliament, and the A&s;&s;emblie, be led by this <HI>Intere&s;t:</HI> Or <HI>in State,</HI> and then ye wrong both the Parliament, and the A&s;&s;emblie, as if they mea&s;ured Religion by Worldlie <HI>Ends,</HI> and <HI>Intere&s;ts,</HI> where|in in ye are not to be beleeved. Neither will we retaliate unto you, that you may have &s;ome further <HI>Intere&s;ts</HI> yet, that we know not of.</P>
<P>And con&s;equentlie ye need not to fear for your Per&s;ons, as if ye were in danger, or had &s;ubject to fear per&s;ecution, as in former time.</P>
<P>&sect; 27. <HI>Pag.</HI> 28. Ye excu&s;e your &s;elves from fal&s;e Doctrine, whereof no man accu&s;eth you.</P>
<PB N="71" REF="39">
<P>&sect; 28. Ye tell us, that the Difference betwixt you, and us, is not &s;o great; the le&s;&s;e it is, the le&s;&s;e &s;hould ye be &s;uiters for a Toleration; and if ye obtained it, the greater &s;hould be your Schi&s;me.</P>
<P>&sect; 28. <HI>Pag.</HI> 30. Here al&s;o ye excu&s;e your &s;elves, that ye have not made a Schola&s;tique Relation of your Judgement, whereunto we have already an&s;wered; and in &s;o doing your opinions remaining le&s;&s;e known, hardly can they be di&s;tinctlie refuted.</P>
<P>&sect; 28. <HI>Pag.</HI> 39, 30. Afterwards ye require two things of the <HI>Parliament, That it will look upon you under no other Notion, or Character, then as tho&s;e, who do as little differ from the Reformed Churches,</HI> and your Brethren; yea, far le&s;&s;e, then they do from what them&s;elves were three yeers pa&s;t, or then the generalitie of this Kingdom from it &s;elf of late. 2. Ye require <HI>an allow|ance of a latitude to &s;ome le&s;&s;er differences with peaceablene&s;&s;e.</HI></P>
<P><HI>An&s;w.</HI> And we pray you, do, as they have done, to the end, the Parliament may look upon you, as they do upon them. 1. They never condemned all the Prote&s;tant Churches, as ye do. 2. They never de&s;ired a Toleration, to make a Separati|on, as ye do. 3. Either they approved not the ill of the times pa&s;t, but patientlie endured it according to their light, hoping and praying to God for better, without Schi&s;me. 4. Or ap|proved it: but when it plea&s;ed God in his mercy to illuminate them, they di&s;approved what before they had approved of, and changed from wor&s;e to better; which if ye do, O what a joy &s;hall it be unto them, and to us all, and what a content|ment may it bring unto your &s;elves?</P>
<P>And finally, As for the <HI>latitude</HI> and <HI>tolerance</HI> ye &s;ue for, it is unju&s;t, and mo&s;t pernicious, both to Chri&s;ts Church, and the Kingdom, as we have hear already cleerly demon&s;trated.</P>
</DIV2>
<TRAILER>FINIS.</TRAILER>
</DIV1>
</BODY>
</TEXT>
</EEBO>
</ETS>
