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<DATE>2011-02-06</DATE>
<RESPSTMT>
<NAME>Pip Willcox</NAME>
<RESP>MURP</RESP>
</RESPSTMT>
<ITEM>Proofed and reviewed as part of batch Z110110.apex.</ITEM>
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<IDG S="marc" R="OX" ID="A91561">
<STC T="W">P98</STC>
<STC T="T">E142_19</STC>
<STC T="T">E136_21</STC>
<BIBNO T="umi">99859880</BIBNO>
<VID>156586</VID>
</IDG>
<TEXT LANG="eng">
<FRONT>
<DIV1 TYPE="title page">
<PB REF="1" MS="y">
<P>A DISCREET AND IVDICIOVS DISCOVRSE BETWEENE VVISDOME AND PIETIE, Two worthy Members.</P>
<P>Wherein is declared the Power and Iuri&s;diction of Parliaments in their pro|ceedings, and in the alteration of Church Government.</P>
<P>Written by <HI>R. P.</HI></P>
<P>Printed at <HI>London</HI> 1642.</P>
</DIV1>
<DIV1 TYPE="frontispiece">
<PB REF="2">
<P><FIGURE>
<Q>HONI SOIT QVI MAL Y PENSE</Q>
<FIGDESC>crest or blazon of the Knights of the Garter</FIGDESC>
</FIGURE></P>
</DIV1>
</FRONT>
<BODY>
<DIV1 TYPE="dialogue">
<PB N="1" REF="2">
<HEAD>A di&s;creet and judicious Di&s;cour&s;e, betweene WISDOME and PIETY, two worthy Members.</HEAD>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Piety.</SPEAKER>
<P>_SIr, I rejoyce much at our &s;o hap|py meeting in this place; I hope lei&s;ure will now permit us to conferre of the&s;e times, and the proceedings of the High Court of Parliament, in &s;etling the di&s;orders in this State; and &s;uch a forme of governement in the Church, as I hope will be congruent to the &s;ence and true mea|ning of the Word of God.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Wi&s;dome.</SPEAKER>
<P>Sir, I joy as much as you for our mee|ting, and I hope we may &s;pend a little time in di&s;|cour&s;e of tho&s;e things you have mentioned; I con|ceive it will not be lo&s;t time, nor much hinderance to our other occa&s;ions. And under favour Sir, pray what thinke you of the proceedings of the Parlia|ment, concerning Church Government, and Ec|cle&s;ia&s;ticall di&s;cipline.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Piety.</SPEAKER>
<P>A Parliament, pray Sir, what meane you by the word, and what is the &s;ignification thereof?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Wi&s;dome.</SPEAKER>
<P>The word is compounded of, and de|rived from the <HI>French</HI> and <HI>Latine</HI> words; as I con|ceive, <HI>Parle Mentis,</HI> which I under&s;tand &s;ignifies a
<PB N="2" REF="3"> &s;peech of the Minde, contracted Parlement or Par|liament; and I meane thereby a Councell of grave and learned men, congregated and a&s;&s;embled by their Princes command and authority, to con&s;ult and debate freely, &s;peaking clearely what is their minde and intentions; &s;uch things tending to the &s;afety and pro&s;perity of their King and Countrey, and what forme of Governement is meete&s;t to bee u&s;ed in the Church, in the exerci&s;e of Religion.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Piety</SPEAKER>
<P>I conceive your definition of the word is good, but I de&s;ire to know whether it bee in the power of &s;uch a Councell or Parliament, to alter the Governement of a Church, e&s;tabli&s;hed and con|firmed for &s;everall ages together in a Kingdome, both by the Princes thereof &s;ucce&s;&s;ively, and a whole Councell of State gathered together, and a&s;&s;embled in Parliament.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Wi&s;dome.</SPEAKER>
<P>To an&s;wer your reque&s;t: I conceive it is in the power of a Parliament, with their Princes con&s;ent, to alter the Governement of the Church; I can give you in&s;tances of the &s;ame: The Romi&s;h Religion was a long time in this Kingdome practi|&s;ed and profe&s;&s;ed, confirmed by &s;everall Kings and Parliaments of this Land, untill the 28. yeare of the raigne of <HI>Henry</HI>
8. Then did that Prince and his Parliament begin to alter the Governement of the Church, and in the
31. of his raigne hee perfected his intentions in a totall change of the Government thereof: Aboli&s;hed and demoli&s;hed all places of wor&s;hip, according to the doctrine and di&s;cipline of the Church of <HI>Rome,</HI> as Abbies, Mona&s;teries,
<PB N="3" REF="3"> Priories, Nunneries, and the like: the lands and demeanes appertaining to the &s;ame were given to the Crown; as al&s;o the wor&s;hip it &s;elfe. This forme of Government (attended onely with &s;ome Cere|monies of the Church of <HI>Rome</HI>) continued this Kings raigne till <HI>Edward</HI> 6. in who&s;e raigne was a further and more perfecter change in the Governe|ment of the Church then before. Now was Bibles and other Divine bookes ordained by the King and his great Councell to be tran&s;lated into the <HI>Engli&s;h</HI> tongue; a forme of Common-prayer made and con|firmed by Parliament to bee u&s;ed in the <HI>Engli&s;h</HI> tongue; the admini&s;tration of the Euchari&s;t, and the Sacrament of Bapti&s;me, u&s;ed according as in the Ancient and Primitive Church; which forme of government and wor&s;hip of God is now called the Prote&s;tant Religion. This Government and Alteration continued but a &s;mall time, till the raigne of Queene <HI>Mary,</HI> who againe reduced Pope|ry to its height in this Kingdome. This change con|tinued till Queen
<HI>Elizabeth</HI> of ble&s;&s;ed memory, who againe &s;et up the Prote&s;tant Church, which hath ever &s;ince till of late flouri&s;hed in this Kingdome; and thus you plainly &s;ee a Parliament may with the con&s;ent of their Prince, alter the Government of the Church, and the di&s;cipline thereof, to that forme which the Prince &s;tands mo&s;t affected too.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Piety.</SPEAKER>
<P>But pray Sir, if a Catholique Prince come to raigne over a Kingdome, wherein the Prote&s;tant Religion is altogether profe&s;&s;ed and e&s;tabli&s;hed: Is it then in the power of the Parliment, without the
<PB N="4" REF="4"> con&s;ent of the King, to make Lawes and Ordinan|ces for the confirmation of their Religion, in the Government, Doctrine, and Di&s;cipline thereof.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Wi&s;dome.</SPEAKER>
<P>This que&s;tion is difficult to be re&s;ol|ved, and I cannot punctually determine thereof; but I conceive, if over &s;uch a State there bee &s;uch a Prince, that is not a native of that Kingdome, a Par|liament of the whole State a&s;&s;embled, may without his con&s;ent e&s;tabli&s;h and confirme the ancient Laws and Statutes of the Kingdome, for the Government of the Church and State. But whether it be &s;o, if a native Prince, I cannot certainly re&s;olve.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Piety.</SPEAKER>
<P>I verily beleeve the Parliament hath pow|er and authority to change upon occa&s;ion the Go|vernment of the Church in contrary Religions, as before is in&s;t<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="OXF" EXTENT="2 letters">ced; but I am not yet &s;atisfied whe|ther a Parliament, either with con&s;ent of the Prince, or without, can alter a forme of Governe|ment e&s;tabli&s;hed in a Kingdome, concerning one Religion, be it the Prote&s;tant or other.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Wi&s;dome.</SPEAKER>
<P>To an&s;wer this, I conceive the Do|ctrine of the Church cannot be altered, for then we doe change our Religion, and are not of the &s;ame as before, but of a new; but the Government and Di&s;|cipline of a Church may be changed, according as the wi&s;dome and policy of the State &s;hall finde the &s;ame convenient or inconvenient, hurtfull or com|modious for the &s;ame.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Piety.</SPEAKER>
<P>Nay, the Titles, Places and Offices of men of holy Order be at the plea&s;ure of a Parliament, changed, or quite taken away; being of &s;uch antiqui|ty
<PB N="5" REF="4"> in the Church, as Lord Bi&s;hops, Bi&s;hops, Arch|deacons, De<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="OXF" EXTENT="2 letters">es, Prebends, and the like.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Wi&s;dome.</SPEAKER>
<P>I conceive their Titles may bee chan|ged, or taken away; as Lords Bi&s;hops, Archdea|cons, &amp;c. for no &s;uch names are to be found in the Scripture, or by the &s;ame warranted: Their places of both Temporall and &s;pirituall Juri&s;diction (as they are made the onely Governours of the Church and of the State too) may if a State finde them hurt|full and prejudiciall to the &s;ame, be taken away and changed; but for their Spirituall functions and offi|ces of Bi&s;hops or Presbyters, I conceive the &s;ame cannot be changed or taken away with-&s;afety or &s;e|curity; But the &s;ole power and juri&s;diction in go|vernment of the Church may be taken from parti|cular per&s;ons, (and a&s;&s;i&s;tance of grave Divines joy|ned with them in the &s;ame) as the wi&s;dome of the Parliament &s;hall &s;ee me meet.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Piety.</SPEAKER>
<P>But may a State Politique and Civill change the government of the Church, and e&s;tabli&s;h a new &s;onnic of government in the &s;ame, without ad|vi&s;e of a Councell or Synod of Divines that are grave and learned, elected and cho&s;en out of every County of the Kingdome, and their con&s;ents to the change of government in the Church?</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Wi&s;dome.</SPEAKER>
<P>I conceive the Parliament, as it is an A&s;&s;embly of Lay men, and none of them in holy Order, cannot of its &s;elfe change the government of a Church, without advi&s;e and con&s;ent of the Clergy: But I beleeve it is in the &s;ole power of Parliament to make choyce of &s;uch Divines as &s;hall
<PB N="6" REF="5"> informe them concerning what Government and Di&s;cipline is mo&s;t convenient for the Church, and what not.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Piety.</SPEAKER>
<P>Then cannot a Synod or Convocation of the Clergy be a&s;&s;embled without authority of Par|liament, and what Ordinances is made in the &s;ame by them are of no validity, without confirmation by the King and Parliament.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Wi&s;dome.</SPEAKER>
<P>No truly, I beleeve there cannot; and what is done by a Synod or Convocation, without con&s;ent and confirmation of King and Parliament, is not binding to the Subject. And now thanking you lovingly for your good di&s;cour&s;e, I mu&s;t take my leave of you till another time; wi&s;hing all things may be done in Parliament to the honour of God, firme e&s;tabli&s;hment of true Religion, and &s;uch a forme of government in the Church, as may be agreeble to the Word of God, and the &s;etling of peace and unity in all his Maje&s;ties King|domes.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Piety.</SPEAKER>
<P>Amen. God be with you Sir till out next meeting.</P>
</SP>
<SP>
<SPEAKER>Wi&s;dome.</SPEAKER>
<P>I thanke you heartily.</P>
</SP>
<TRAILER>FINIS.</TRAILER>
</DIV1>
</BODY>
</TEXT>
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