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<DATE>2009-06-09</DATE>
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<NAME>Scott Lepisto</NAME>
<RESP>MURP</RESP>
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<TEXT LANG="eng">
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<DIV1 TYPE="narrative">
<PB N="1" REF="1" MS="y">
<HEAD>THE NARRATIVE AND REASONS Which were delivered by the Hou&s;e of Commons TO THE LORDS, AT THE La&s;t CONFERENCE touching the Tryals of the LORDS in the <HI>TOWER.</HI></HEAD>
<P>THE Commons have always de&s;ired that a good Corre&s;pondence may be pre|&s;erved between the two Hou&s;es.</P>
<P>There is now depending between your Lord&s;hips and the Commons a mat|ter of the greate&s;t weight, in the tran&s;actions of which your Lord&s;hips &s;eem to apprehend &s;ome difficulty in the matters propo&s;ed by the Commons.</P>
<P>To clear this, the Commons have de&s;ired this Conference, and by it they hope to manife&s;t to your Lord&s;hips, That the Propo&s;itions of the Hou&s;e of Commons made by their Committee, in relation to the Trial of the Lords in the <HI>Tower,</HI> have been only &s;uch as are well warranted by the Laws of Parliament, and Con&s;titutions of the Government, and in no &s;ort intrench upon the Judicature of the Peers, but are mo&s;t nece&s;&s;ary to be in&s;i&s;ted upon, that the ancient Rights of Judicature in Parliament may be maintained.</P>
<P>The Commons readily acknowledg, that the Crimes charged upon the Earl of <HI>Powis,</HI> Vis|count <HI>Stafford,</HI> Lord <HI>Petre,</HI> Lord <HI>Arundel</HI> of <HI>Wardour,</HI> and Lord <HI>Bella&s;is,</HI> are of deep guilt, and call for &s;peedy Ju&s;tice; but withal, they hold, that any change in Judicature in Parliament, made without con&s;ent in full Parliament, to be of pernicious con&s;equence, both to his Maje&s;ty, and his Subjects, and conceive them&s;elves obliged to tran&s;mit to their po&s;terity all the rights which of
<PB N="2" REF="2" MS="y">his kind they have rece<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="UOM" EXTENT="1 letter">ed from their Ance&s;tors: and by puting your Lord&s;hips in mind of the progre&s;s that has already been between the two Hou&s;es, in relation to the propo&s;itions made by the Commons, and the rea&s;onablene&s;s of the propo&s;itions them&s;elves; they doubt not to make it appear, that their aim hath been no other, than to avoid &s;uch con&s;equences, and pre&s;erve that right; and that there is no delay of Ju&s;tice on their part; and to that end, do offer to your Lord|&s;hips the en&s;uing Rea&s;ons and Narrative; that the Commons in bringing the E. of <HI>Danby</HI> to Ju&s;tice, and in di&s;covery of that execrable-and traiterous Con&s;piracy (of which the five Popi&s;h Lords now &s;tand Impeached, and for which &s;ome of their wicked Accomplices have already undergone the &s;entence of the Law as Traitors and Murderers), have laboured under many great difficulties, is not unknown to your Lord&s;hips.</P>
<P>Nor is it le&s;s known to your Lord&s;hips, that upon the Impeachment of the Hou&s;e of Com|mons again&s;t the E. of <HI>Danby</HI> for High Trea&s;on, and other high crimes, mi&s;demeanors, and offen|ces, even the common ju&s;tice of &s;eque&s;tring him from Parliament, and forthwith committing him to &s;afe cu&s;tody, was then required by the Commons, and denied by the Hou&s;e of Peers, though he then &s;ate in their Hou&s;e; of which your Lord&s;hips have been &s;o &s;en&s;ible, that at a free Conference the 10th of <HI>April</HI> la&s;t, your Lord&s;hips declared, that it was the right of the Commons, and well warranted by pre&s;idents of former ages; That upon the Impeachment of the Com|mons, a Peer &s;o impeached ought of right to be ordered to withdraw, and then to be committed; and had not that Ju&s;tice been denied to the Commons, a great part of this Se&s;&s;ion of Parliament, which hath been &s;pent in framing and adju&s;ting a Bill for cau&s;ing the E. of <HI>Danby</HI> to appear and an&s;wer that Ju&s;tice from which he was fled, had been &s;aved, and had been employed for the pre&s;ervation of his Maje&s;ties per&s;on, and the &s;ecurity of the Nation, and in pro&s;ecuting of the other five Lords; neither had he had the opportunity of procuring for him&s;elf that illegal par|don, which bears date the fir&s;t of <HI>March</HI> la&s;t pa&s;t, and which he hath now pleaded in bar of his Impeachment; nor of wa&s;ting &s;o great a proportion of the trea&s;ure of the Kingdom, as he hath done &s;ince the Commons exhibited their Articles of Impeachment again&s;t him.</P>
<P>After which time thus lo&s;t by rea&s;on of the denial of that Ju&s;tice which of right belonged to the Commons upon their Impeachment, the &s;aid Bill being ready for the Royal a&s;&s;ent, the &s;aid Earl then rendered him&s;elf; and by your Lord&s;hips Order of the 16th of <HI>April</HI> la&s;t, was committed to the <HI>Tower;</HI> after which he pleaded the &s;aid pardon, and being pre&s;&s;ed, did at length declare he would rely upon, and abide by that plea; which pardon being pleaded, being illegal and void, and &s;o ought not to bar and preclude the Commons from having Ju&s;tice upon the Im|peachment; they did thereupon with their Speaker on the fifth of <HI>May</HI> in&s;tant, in the name of them&s;elves, and all the Commons of <HI>England,</HI> demand Judgment again&s;t the &s;aid Earl upon their Impeachment, not doubting but that your Lord&s;hips did intend in all your proceedings upon the Impeachment, to follow the u&s;ual cour&s;e and method of Parliament.</P>
<P>But the Commons were not a little &s;urprized by the Me&s;&s;age from your Lord&s;hips, delivered them on the 7th of <HI>May,</HI> thereby acquainting them, That as well the Lords Spiritual as Tempo|ral, had ordered that the 10th of <HI>May</HI> in&s;tant &s;hould be the day for hearing the E. of <HI>Danby</HI> to make good his Plea of Pardon; and that on the 13th of <HI>May</HI> the other five Lords impeached, &s;hould be brought to their Trial, and that your Lord&s;hips had addre&s;&s;ed to his Maje&s;ty for na|ming of a Lord High Steward, as well in the Ca&s;e of the E. of <HI>Danby,</HI> as the other five Lords.</P>
<P>Upon con&s;ideration of this &s;aid Me&s;&s;age, the Commons found, that the admitting the Lords Spiritual to exerci&s;e Juri&s;diction in the&s;e ca&s;es, was an alteration of the Judicature in Parliament, and which extended as well to the proceeding again&s;t the five Lords, as again&s;t the E. of <HI>Danby;</HI> and that if a Lord High Steward &s;hould be nece&s;&s;ary upon Trial on Impeachment of the Com|mons, the power of Judicature in Parliament upon Impeachments might be defeated, by &s;u&s;pend|ing or denying a Commi&s;&s;ion to con&s;titute a Lord High Steward.</P>
<P>And that the &s;aid days of Trial appointed by your Lord&s;hips, were &s;o near to the time of your &s;aid Me&s;&s;age, that the&s;e matters, and the method of proceeding upon the Trial, could not be ad|ju&s;ted by Conference between the two Hou&s;es, before the day &s;o nominated; and con&s;equently the Commons could not then proceed to Tryal, unle&s;s the zeal which they have for &s;peedy Judgment again&s;t the Earl of <HI>Danby</HI> (that &s;o they might proceed to the Tryal of the other five Lords) &s;hould induce them at this juncture, both to admit the enlargement of your Lord&s;hips Juri&s;diction, and to fit down under the&s;e or any hard&s;hips (though with the hazard of all the Commons power of Impeaching for time to come) rather than the Tryal of the &s;aid five Lords &s;hould be deferred for &s;ome &s;hort time, while&s;t the&s;e matters might be agreed on and &s;etled.</P>
<P>For reconciling differences in the&s;e great and weighty matters, and for &s;aving that time which would nece&s;&s;arily have been &s;pent in Debates and Conferences betwixt the two Hou&s;es, and for expediting the Tryal, without giving up the Power of Impeachment, or rendring them ineffe|ctual.</P>
<PB N="3" REF="2" MS="y">
<P>The Commons thought fit to propo&s;e to your Lord&s;hips, that a Committee of both Hou&s;es might be appointed for this purpo&s;e. At which Committee (when agreed to by your Lord|&s;hips) it was fir&s;t propo&s;ed that the time of Tryal of the Lords in the <HI>Tower,</HI> &s;hould be put off till the other Matters were adju&s;ted; and it was then agreed, that the Propo&s;ition as to the time of the Tryal, &s;hould be the la&s;t thing con&s;idered. And the effect of this Agreement &s;tands re|ported upon your Lord&s;hips Books.</P>
<P>After which the Commons communicated to your Lord&s;hips by your Committee, Vote of theirs, <HI>(viz.)</HI> that the Committee of the Commons &s;hould in&s;i&s;t upon their former Vote of their Hou&s;e, That the Lords Spiritual ought not to have any Vote in any proceedings again&s;t the Lords in the <HI>Tower,</HI> and that when that Matter &s;hould be &s;etled, and the Method of Proceedings adju&s;ted, the Commons would then be ready to proceed upon the Tryal of the Pardon of the Earl of <HI>Danby,</HI> again&s;t whom they had before demanded Judgment, and afterwards to the Tryal of the other five Lords in the <HI>Tower,</HI> which Vote extended as well to the Earl of <HI>Danby,</HI> as the other five Lords; But the Commons as yet received nothing from your Lord&s;hips towards an An&s;wer of that Vote, &s;ave that your Lord&s;hips have acquainted them, that the Bi&s;hops have asked leave of the Hou&s;e of Peers, that they might withdraw them&s;elves from the Tryal of the &s;aid five Lords, with Liberty of entring their u&s;ual prote&s;tation.</P>
<P>And though the Commons Committee have almo&s;t daily declared to your Lord&s;hips Com|mittee, that that was a nece&s;&s;ary point of Right, to be &s;etled before the Tryal, and offered to debate the &s;ame, your Committee always an&s;wered, That they had not any power from your Lord&s;hips, either to confer upon, or to give any An&s;wer concerning that Matter.</P>
<P>And yet your Lord&s;hips without having given the Commons any &s;atisfactory An&s;wer to the &s;aid Vote, or permitting any Conference or Debate thereupon, and contrary to the &s;aid Agree|ment, did on <HI>Thur&s;day</HI> the 22d of <HI>May</HI> &s;end a Me&s;&s;age to the Commons, Declaring that the Lords Spiritual as well as Temporal, had ordered that the 27th of this In&s;tant <HI>May</HI> be appointed for the Tryal of the five Lords.</P>
<P>So that the Commons cannot but apprehend that your Lord&s;hips have not only departed from what was agreed on, and in effect laid a&s;ide that Committee, which was con&s;tituted for pre&s;erving a good Under&s;tanding betwixt the two Hou&s;es, and better di&s;patch of the weighty Affairs now depending in Parliament, but mu&s;t al&s;o needs conclude from the &s;aid Me&s;&s;age, and the Votes of your Lord&s;hips on the 14th of <HI>May;</HI> That the Lords Spiritual have a Right to &s;tay and &s;it in Court, till the Court proceeds to the Vote of Guilty or not Guily. And from the Bi&s;hops asking leave (as appears by your Lord&s;hips Books two Days after your &s;aid Vote) that they might withdraw them&s;elves from the Tryal of the &s;aid Lords, with Liberty of entring their u&s;ual Prote&s;tation, and by their per&s;i&s;ting &s;till to go on and give their Votes in Proceedings upon the Impeachment; That their de&s;ire of leave to withdraw at the &s;aid Tryal, is only an Eva&s;ive An&s;wer to the before-mentioned Vote of the Commons, and chiefly intended as an Ar|gument for a Right of Judicature in Proceedings upon Impeachment, and as a Re&s;erve to Judg upon the Earl of <HI>Danby</HI>'s Plea of Pardon; And upon the&s;e and other like Impeachments, al|though no &s;uch Power was ever claimed by their Predece&s;&s;ors, but is utterly denied by the Commons: And the Commons are the rather induced to believe it &s;o intended, becau&s;e the ve|ry asking leave to withdraw, &s;eems to imply a Right to be there, and that they cannot be ab|&s;ent without it.</P>
<P>And becau&s;e by this way they would have it in their Power, whether or no for the future, either in the Earl of <HI>Danby</HI>'s Ca&s;e, or any other, they will ever ask leave to be ab&s;ent; And the Temporal Lords a like Power of denying leave, if that &s;hould once be admitted ne|ce&s;&s;ary.</P>
<P><HI>The Commons therefore are obliged not to proceed to the Tryal of the Lords on the Twenty-&s;eventh of this In&s;tant</HI> May, <HI>but to adhere to their afore&s;aid Vote: And for their &s;o do|ing, be&s;ides what hath been now and formerly by them &s;aid to your Lord&s;hips, do offer you the&s;e Rea&s;ons following.</HI></P>
<DIV2 TYPE="reasons">
<PB N="4" REF="3" MS="y">
<HEAD>REASONS.</HEAD>
<P N="1">I. BEcau&s;e your Lord&s;hips have received the Earl of <HI>Danby</HI>'s Plea of Pardon, with a very long and unu&s;ual prote&s;tation, wherein he hath a&s;per&s;ed his Maje&s;ty by fal&s;e &s;ugge&s;tions, as if his Maje&s;ty had commanded or countenanced the Crimes he &s;tands charged with; and par|ticularly, &s;uppre&s;&s;ing and di&s;couraging the Di&s;covery of the Plot, and endeavouring to intro|duce an Arbitrary and Tyrannical way of Government, which remains as a &s;candal upon Record again&s;t his Maje&s;ty, tending to render his Per&s;on and Government odious to his people: again&s;t which it ought to be the fir&s;t and principal care of both Hou&s;es to vindicate his Maje&s;ty, by doing Ju&s;tice upon the &s;aid Earl.</P>
<P N="2">II. The &s;etting up a Pardon to be a Bar of an Impeachment, defeats the whole u&s;e and effect of Impeachments; and &s;hould this point be admitted, or &s;tand doubted, it would totally di&s;cou|rage the exhibiting any for the future; whereby the chief In&s;titution for the pre&s;ervation of the Government (and con&s;equently the Government it &s;elf) would be de&s;troyed. And therefore the Ca&s;e of the &s;aid Earl (which in con&s;equence concerns all Impeachments what&s;oever) ought to be determined before that of the &s;aid Five Lords, which is but their particular Ca&s;e.</P>
<P>And without re&s;orting to many Authorities of greater Antiquity, the Commons de&s;ire your Lord&s;hips to take notice (with the &s;ame regard they do) of the Declaration which that Excellent Prince, King <HI>Charles</HI> the Fir&s;t of ble&s;&s;ed memory, made in this behalf, in his An&s;wer to the Nineteen Propo&s;itions of both Hou&s;es of Parliament; wherein &s;tating the &s;everal parts of this regulated Monarchy, he &s;ays: <HI>The King, the Hou&s;e of Lords, and the Hou&s;e of Commons, have each particular Priviledges:</HI> And among tho&s;e which belong to the King, he reckons <HI>power of Par|doning.</HI> After the enumerating of which, and other His Prerogatives, His &s;aid Maje&s;ty adds thus: <HI>Again, That the Prince may not make u&s;e of this High and perpetual Power, to the hurt of tho&s;e for who&s;e good he hath it, and make u&s;e of the name of publick nece&s;&s;ity, for the gain of his private Favourites and Followers, to the detriment of his people; The Hou&s;e of Commons (an Excellent Con|&s;erver of Liberty,</HI> &amp;c.) <HI>is &s;olely intru&s;ted with the fir&s;t Propo&s;itions concerning the Levies of Moneys and the Impeaching of tho&s;e who, for their own ends, though countenanced by any &s;urreptitiou&s;ly-got|ten Command of the King, have violated that Law which he is bound (when he knows it) to protect, and to the protection of which they were bound to advi&s;e him, at lea&s;t not to &s;erve him in the contrary. And the Lords being tru&s;ted with a Judicatory Power, are an excellent skr<GAP DESC="illegible" RESP="UOM" EXTENT="1 letter">en and bank between the Prince and People, to a&s;&s;i&s;t each again&s;t any Encroachments of the other, and by Ju&s;t Judgments to pre&s;erve that Law which ought to be the Rule of every one of the Three,</HI> &amp;c. <HI>Therefore the Power le|gally placed in both Hou&s;es, is more than &s;ufficient to prevent and re&s;train the Power of Tyranny,</HI> &amp;c.</P>
<P N="3">III. Until the Commons of <HI>England</HI> have right done them again&s;t the Plea of Pardon, they may ju&s;tly apprehend, that the whole Ju&s;tice of the Kingdom, in the Ca&s;e of the Five Lords, may be ob&s;tructed and defeated by Pardons of like nature.</P>
<P N="4">IV. An Impeachment is virtually the voice of every particular &s;ubject of this Kingdom, cry|ing out again&s;t an Oppre&s;&s;ion, by which every member of that Body is equally wounded; and it will prove a matter of ill con&s;equence, that the univer&s;ality of the people &s;hould have occa&s;ion mini&s;tred and continued to them, to be apprehen&s;ive of utmo&s;t danger from the Crown, from whence they of right expect protection.</P>
<P N="5">V. The Commons exhibited Articles of Impeachment again&s;t the &s;aid Earl, before any again&s;t the Five other Lords, and demanded Judgment upon tho&s;e Articles: whereupon, your Lord|&s;hips having appointed the Trial of the &s;aid Earl to be before that of the other Five Lords. Now your Lord|&s;hips having &s;ince inverted that Order, gives a great cau&s;e of doubt to the Hou&s;e of Commons, and rai&s;es a jealou&s;ie in the hearts of all the Commons of <HI>England,</HI> that, if they &s;hould proceed to the Tryal of the &s;aid Five Lords in the fir&s;t place, not only Ju&s;tice will be ob|&s;tructed in the Ca&s;e of tho&s;e Lords, but that they &s;hall never have right done them in the matter of this Plea of Pardon, which is of &s;o fatal con&s;equence to the whole Kingdom, and a new de|vice to fru&s;trate publick Ju&s;tice in Parliament.</P>
<P>Which Rea&s;ons and Matters being duely weighed by your Lord&s;hips, the Commons doubt not but your Lord&s;hips will receive &s;atisfaction concerning their Propo&s;itions and Proceedings; and will agree, that the Commons ought not, nor can, without de&s;erting their Tru&s;t, depart from their former Vote communicated to your Lord&s;hips; <HI>That the Lords Spiritual ought not to have any Vote in any proceedings again&s;t the Lords in the</HI> Tower; <HI>and when that matter &s;hall be &s;etled, and the Methods of Proceedings adju&s;ted, the Commons &s;hall then be ready to proceed upon the Tryal of the Earl of</HI> Danby, <HI>(again&s;t whom they have already demanded Judgment) and afterwards to the Tryal of the other five Lords in the</HI> Tower.</P>
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