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<DATE>9-8-14</DATE>
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<NAME>John Latta</NAME>
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<P>A DISCOVRSE <HI>Betwixt</HI> LIEUTENANT COLONEL IOHN LILBURN Clo&s;e Pri&s;oner in the Tower of <HI>London,</HI> AND M^r HUGH PETER: Upon <HI>May</HI> 25. 1649.</P>
<P><HI>Publi&s;hed by a friend, for the Publick benefit.</HI></P>
<Q><BIBL><HI>MAT. 7.15, 16.</HI></BIBL>
<P>Beware of fal&s;e Prophets, which come to you in Sheeps clothing, but in|wardly they are ravening Wolves.</P>
<P>Ye &s;hall know them by their fruits: Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thi&s;tles?</P></Q>
<P>LONDON, Printed in the Yeer 1649.</P>
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<DIV1 TYPE="discourse">
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<HEAD>A <HI>DISCOURSE</HI> betwixt Lieut. Col. <HI>JOHN LILBURN,</HI> clo&s;e pri&s;oner in the Tower of London, and Mr <HI>HUGH PETER;</HI> upon Friday May <HI>25, 1649.</HI></HEAD>
<P>_THis pre&s;ent Friday Mr. <HI>Peters,</HI> with one Doctor <HI>May&s;ey</HI> of <HI>King&s;ton,</HI> and a Captain of M. <HI>Burton</HI>'s Congregation that I have known formerly in Major General <HI>Craford</HI>'s Regiment (of Foot, with the Lieutenant of the Tower, and my Keeper, came into my Lodging, where they found my wife and my &s;elf at dinner; and after &s;alutes of each other, Mr. <HI>Peter</HI> told me to this effect, That he had at or neer the Cu&s;tome-hou&s;e, received an affront, for which he came to the Lieutenant of the Tower for reparation, and &s;o was re&s;olved to &s;ee me, being here, and kill two birds with one &s;tone; and being newly come from &s;ea, and hearing I was here, he meerly came to give me a vi&s;it, out of no other de|&s;igne in the world, but meerly a bare vi&s;it. I replyed to this purpo&s;e; Mr. <HI>Peter,</HI> I know you well enough, and you know that I know you to be one of the &s;etting dogs, or &s;talking hor&s;es of the great men of the Army, with fair and plau&s;ible pretences to in&s;inuate into men when they have done them wrong, and to work out their de&s;ignes when they are in a &s;trait, and cover over their blots that they have made, when they grow &s;o vi&s;ible, that they cannot well be hid, but will appear to their &s;hame.</P>
<P>He wondering that I entertain'd him with &s;uch language for his friend|ly vi&s;iting me (as he call'd it) I told him in effect, it was no halting be|fore a creeple, for I knew him well enough, and tho&s;e to whom he be|longed.</P>
<P>But he &s;ate him down and ate and drunk with <GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="blotted" EXTENT="1+ letters">e, and fell <GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="blotted" EXTENT="1 word"> won|dering at all the &s;tirs here, and what &s;hould be the cau&s;e of the late bloud that was &s;hed. I told him in effect, his great Ma&s;ters could better in|form him of that then I. Said he, <HI>They &s;ay, Your bustling hath oc|ca&s;ioned it.</HI> Truly Sir, I &s;ay, their inju&s;tice, oppre&s;&s;ion and tyranny hath done it: and I am &s;ure, I fetch'd not them out of White-hall, or any o|ther
<PB N="3" REF="2"> of their Lodgings; but they fetch'd me out of <HI>Winchester-hou&s;e,</HI> out of my bed and habitation, from my wife and children, and carried me to their thing called a Councel of State, who (like a company of righteous Judges, the clean contrary way) committed me to pri&s;on in the nature of a Traytor, before ever they let me &s;ee accu&s;er, accu&s;ation, pro&s;ecutor, or witne&s;&s;e, or any due proce&s;&s;e of Law: and yet time was, when the King impeached <HI>Kimbolton</HI> and the five Members, and preferred a Charge of &s;even Articles again&s;t them of high trea&s;on in the highe&s;t nature, record|ed 1. <HI>Part Book Decl. pag.</HI> 35. and onely failed in a &s;ingle punctilio of due Proce&s;s of Law, that they cryed out, it was &s;uch an inva&s;ion of the peoples Liberty, that four or five <HI>peccavies</HI> and recantations from him, recorded in their own Declarations, would never &s;erve their turn: but yet forty times more illegalitie exerci&s;ed by them&s;elves upon me, mu&s;t be legall, ju&s;t, and right in your great, ju&s;t and righteous Ma&s;ters, that now have a prerogative and priviledge, they can neither &s;ay, do, not act evill, although they commit me to pri&s;on without any crime pretended, or without ever letting me &s;ee accu&s;er, or accu&s;ation, pro&s;ecutor or charge; and yet into the bargain, deal wor&s;e with me then ever the Heathen and Pagan Romans dealt with <HI>Paul,</HI> who had nothing but the depraved light of Nature to guide them, and yet in all his impri&s;onment never forbad or hindered any of his friends to vi&s;it or relieve him, although he were ac|cu&s;ed for a pe&s;tilent fellow, and a turner of the world up &s;ide down: but they lock me up in a clo&s;e room, with centinels at my door, and will not &s;o much as at a di&s;tance let me &s;peak with my friends; nay, and for &s;everall days would not &s;o much as let me &s;ee my wife: And yet, Mr. <HI>Pe|ter,</HI> the&s;e are your religious, godly, con&s;ciencious Ma&s;ters. And if this be the fruits of their &s;aint-&s;hip and religion, I do a&s;&s;ure you, the Divel is as good, if not a better Saint: for he beleeves and trembles, which is more then I think they do: and if the Sun &s;hining upon the dunghill, make it &s;tink, whether is the fault in the Sun or the dunghill?</P>
<P>So, being at dinner with a Summers diet, the Lieut. of the Tower told me, I fared &s;utable to my allowance. <HI>What?</HI> &s;aith Mr. <HI>Peter, Do they give him allowance?</HI> I, &s;aith the Lieutenant, they would allow him twenty &s;hillings a week, and he refu&s;eth it. Said I to this purpo&s;e, Sir, forty &s;hillings a week (as diet is now) will not provide me &s;uch meat: and be&s;ides, Mr. <HI>Peter,</HI> do your great Ma&s;ters think, that my captivitie &s;hall make me value my &s;elf at the rate of &s;uch a &s;coundrell fellow (ha|ving been a Lieutenant Colonel in their Service) as to accept of twenty &s;hillings a week, when the King (whom they beheaded for a Tyrant) allowed to the meane&s;t ordinary man that ever he &s;ent hither, three pound
<PB N="4" REF="3"> a week. I am &s;ure, they have five times the Kings Revenue, and things are twice as dear as they u&s;ed to be: And if they will imitate him in all his ba&s;ene&s;&s;e, nay, and far out &s;trip him, I will hold them to it a little, to imitate him in &s;ome of his vertues; and therefore, unle&s;&s;e they will al|low me the allowance that is the cu&s;tome of the place, I will have none of it: and you may tell them from me, I &s;corn to be fed by them with a bit and a knock.</P>
<P>A little after, Mr <HI>Peter</HI> ca&s;ting his eye upon my Law-books, takes up one of <HI>Cook</HI>'s <HI>In&s;titutes,</HI> and profe&s;&s;ed, <HI>I was meerly gul<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="faint" EXTENT="1 letter">'d in reading or tru&s;ting to the&s;e Books, for there was no Laws in</HI> England.</P>
<P>I an&s;wered to this effect, That I did beleeve what he &s;aid; for they (meaning his great Ma&s;ters, <HI>Cromwel, Fairfax,</HI> &amp;c.) had de&s;troyed them all.</P>
<P><HI>Nay,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>I tell you, there never was any in</HI> England.</P>
<P>No (&s;aid I)? and taking up my Statute-book, I turned him to the Pe|tition of Right, and asked him whether that be a Law or no?</P>
<P><HI>No,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>it is none: and I would fain have you to define what Law is.</HI></P>
<P>Mr <HI>Peter,</HI> &s;aid I, I will not take upon me to define what Law is in your &s;en&s;e, or in my own; but I will turn you to a definition in the Parlia|ments &s;en&s;e in their own book of Declarations; which I read to him, as followeth: <Q>The Law is that which puts a difference between good and evill, betwixt ju&s;t and unju&s;t: If you take away the Law, all things will fall into confu&s;ion, every man will become a law unto him&s;elf; which in the depraved condition of humane nature, mu&s;t needs produce many great enormities: Lu&s;t wil become a law, and Envie will become a law, covetou&s;ne&s;&s;e and ambition will become laws; and what di|ctates, what deci&s;ions &s;uch laws will produce, may ea&s;ily be di&s;cerned.</Q> So, Mr <HI>Peter,</HI> here is a definition of Law by the Parliament in the days of their primitive puritie, before they had corrupted them&s;elves with the Common-wealths money. And el&s;ewhere it is their language, <Q>That the Law is the &s;afeguard, the cu&s;todie of all private intere&s;ts; your Ho|nours, your Lives, your Liberties and E&s;tates are all in the keeping of the Law: without this every man hath a like right to any thing.</Q> And el&s;e|where the Law is called <Q>that right line that di&s;covereth that which is tort crooked, or wrong; the Law is that right line that mea&s;ures it &s;elf and a croked line:</Q> the Law is the be&s;t birth-right the Subject hath; for thereby his Goods, Lands, Wife, Children, his Bodie, Life, Honour, and E&s;timation are protected from injury and wrong, <HI>being the &s;ure&s;t &s;anctuarie that a man can take, and the &s;tronge&s;t fortre&s;&s;e to protect the weak|est of all.</HI> To every one of us there comes a greater inheritance by right
<PB N="5" REF="3"> and the Law, then by our Parents. Yea, and it is further &s;aid by their O|racle, <HI>It is a mi&s;erable &s;ervitude or bondage where the Law is uncertain, or unknown.</HI></P>
<P><Q>He an&s;wers to this effect, I tell you &s;aith he, for all this, there is no Law in this Nation, but the &s;word, and what it gives; neither was there any Law or Government in the World, but what the Sword gave and &s;et up.</Q></P>
<P>Unto which I Replyed to this purpo&s;e, Mr <HI>Peter,</HI> I look upon you as one of the principall Guids of the Army, and a man that doth from time to time &s;peak very much the &s;ence of the Leaders of the Army, being you lie in their bo&s;omes, and know their &s;ecrets, and is much u&s;ed by them, to trumpet abroad their Principles and Tenents; But Sir, let me tell you withall, if your rea&s;oning be &s;ound and good, then if &s;ix Theeves meet three, or four hone&s;t men, and becau&s;e they are &s;tronger then they, rob them, that act is righteous, &s;ound and good, becau&s;e their &s;words are &s;tronger then the others; and if any Power be a ju&s;t Power that is upper|mo&s;t becau&s;e it is up, I wonder how you of the Army, and they of the Parliament can acquit your &s;elves of being Rebels and Traytors before God and man, in re&s;i&s;ting and fighting again&s;t a ju&s;t Power in the King, who was a Power up, &amp; fenced about with abundance of Laws &s;o reputed in the common acceptation of <HI>Engli&s;h</HI> men, by the expre&s;&s;e Letter of which I am &s;ure of it, all tho&s;e who ever they be that &s;hall ri&s;e in Armes a|gain&s;t him, are <HI>ip&s;o facto</HI> Traytors; and I would faine know, if it were not for the pre&s;ervation of the Laws, that holds out the peoples Liberties &amp; Freedomes, that the Parliament and Army engaged in Theirs, again&s;t the King a ju&s;t Power, becau&s;e he was up upon your own grounds, what can you or any other make rationally to be the ground of the the Wars? But Sir, in &s;hort and in plain Engli&s;h, let me tell you, that if there be now no Law in <HI>England,</HI> nor never was, that then you and your great Ma&s;ters, <HI>Cromwell, Fairfax,</HI> and the Parliament, are a pack of arrant bloody Rogues and Villaines, in &s;etting the people together by the ears, to fight for the pre&s;ervation of their Laws, in which their Libertie is contained (which is the principall declared cau&s;e of the Warre from the beginning to the end of the War never) if there were no &s;uch thing in being as Law in <HI>England:</HI> At which Mr <HI>Peter</HI> was much &s;tartled, and much condem|ned my har&s;h language, though it be farre &s;hort of what Chri&s;t him&s;elfe u&s;ed to his (<HI>viz.</HI> Mr <HI>Peters</HI>) brothers, the Scribes and Phari&s;ees, upon the like occa&s;ion, <HI>Mat.</HI> 23.14. where he &s;aith, <HI>Wo unto you Scribes and Phari&s;ees, Hypocrites; for yee devoure widowes hou&s;es, and for a pretence make long prayer; therefore yee &s;hall receive the greater damnation:</HI> and in
<PB N="6" REF="4"> Ver&s;e, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 31, 32, he &s;aith, <HI>Wo unto you, Scribes and Phari&s;ees, hypocrites; for ye pay titheof mint, and ani&s;e, and cum|min, and have omitted the weighty matters of the Law, judgment, mercy, and faith: the&s;e ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guids, which &s;train at a gnat, and &s;wallow a camel. Wo unto you, Scribes and Phari&s;ees, hypocrites; for ye make clean the out&s;ide of the cup, and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and exce&s;&s;e. Thou blind Pha|ri&s;ee, clean&s;e fir&s;t that which is within the cup and platter, that the out-&s;ide of them may be clean al&s;o. Wo unto you, Scribes and Phari&s;ees, hypocrites; for ye are like unto whited &s;epulchers, which indeed appear beautifull outward, but are within full of dead mens bones, and of all uncleanne&s;&s;e. Even &s;o ye al&s;o outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocr<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="missing" EXTENT="1 letter">&s;ie and ini|quitie. Wo unto you, Scribes and Phari&s;ees, hypocrites; becau&s;e ye build the tombs of the Prophets, and garni&s;h the Sepulchers of the righteous, and &s;ay, If we had been in the dayes of our Fathers we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the Prophets. Wh<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="missing" EXTENT="1 letter">refore ye be witne&s;&s;es unto your &s;elves, that ye are the children of them which killed the Prophets. Fill ye up then the mea&s;ure of your Fathers.</HI> And in the 8^t^h of <HI>John,</HI> when the Jews in their works and actions denyed <HI>Abraham</HI> and God to be their Father, and yet in words owned them both for their Father, ver&s;e 39.41. Chri&s;t in the 44 ver&s;e, tels them plainly, <HI>Ye are of your father the devill, and the lu&s;t of your father ye will do: he was a murtherer from the beginning, and aboade not in the truth, becau&s;e there is no truth in him. When he &s;peaketh a lie, he &s;peaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it</HI> And the Apo&s;tle <HI>Paul</HI>'s Exhortation to his Followers, is to reprove &s;uch notorious hypo|criticall workers of iniquitie &s;harply.</P>
<P>But after he had &s;ufficiently condemned my language in &s;peaking plain Engli&s;h, which I &s;ay, is the whole current of the Scripture to incorrigible di&s;&s;embling men as they are: he again and again prote&s;ted and de&s;ired the Company to beare Witne&s;&s;e, that he in &s;aying, there was no Law in <HI>Eng|land,</HI> did not &s;peak the &s;ence of the Army, but his own proper opinion, and al&s;o prote&s;ted, he had no de&s;ign in comming to me, but a bare vi&s;it; and wondered I would be &s;o hot at him for his love; and he was farre enough from any of their De&s;igns: I Replyed to this purpo&s;e, Mr <HI>Pe|ter,</HI> You know I know you well enough, and I tell you, in a Play, every Player hath his part, yea even the &s;eeming Fool, and many times they Act with a &s;eeming violence, and again&s;t one another; but they all Center in this end to get the Spectators money from them; I leave you to make Ap|plication: And I tell you moreover, the la&s;t year, when the &s;tirs began, when Sir <HI>John Maynard,</HI> and the four Aldermen were pri&s;oners here at the
<PB N="7" REF="4"> Tower, You came and took up your lodging at Col. <HI>Whits,</HI> under pre|tence of repo&s;ing your &s;elfe, and being nigh your bu&s;ine&s;&s;es, being bound in all ha&s;te to <HI>New-England</HI> as you &s;aid, although you never intended it, I am confident of it, in the lea&s;t, but meerly came hither upon a De&s;ign finely coloured over, to work a complyance in Sir <HI>John Maynard,</HI> and the four Aldermen to your great Ma&s;ters, that &s;o &s;eeing the City baffled of their Liberty, they might come off with as little lo&s;&s;e of Reputation in their deliverance as might be; and I believe &s;ome &s;uch thing if not wor&s;e in the bottom of your vi&s;iting of me at this time: But he Replyed very bit|terly and earne&s;tly, againe and againe, calling God to witne&s;&s;e, he had no de&s;ign the la&s;t year upon Sir <HI>John Maynard,</HI> and the Aldermen, in his com|ming to the Tower, nor upon me in his comming to vi&s;it me; and told me, <HI>I need not be &s;o pa&s;&s;ionate, there was no feare of the lo&s;&s;e of my life:</HI> To which I Replyed, to this effect; Sir, I know you, and your Ma&s;ters &s;o well, and that you have &s;o couzoned and cheated all Parties and Intere&s;ts that ever you dealt with, &s;o vi&s;ibly and evidently, never keeping either faith, promi&s;e, or engagements with any of them, longer then it &s;erved your pre&s;ent turns; it being beyond a maxime long &s;ince among&s;t &s;ome of you &s;o to do, that I doe prote&s;t unto you, both for you and them, I will not believe one word yee &s;ay, &s;wear, or prote&s;t, but the more earne&s;t you or they are in any of them, the more jealous I will be of you; and therefore know this for hereafter, that where ever I meet your Ma&s;ters, or any of their under depending tribe, I will be upon my Guard, as though I were among&s;t a company of the arrente&s;t cheaters and deceivers in the world; by whom I hope I &s;hall never be cozoned any more with credu|lity and hone&s;ty; for I will never hereafter believe you, though I &s;hould bee glad you would deceive me once againe in doing good to the poore Nation, for it is ea&s;ily in you power; but I believe you will never doe it; and for my life, if I were to lay it down to morrow, I would &s;corn to beg or intreat for it, from any of your Ma&s;ters; and if it be in no danger, it is no thanks to them, for I am confidently per&s;waded in my very heart, it is not mine an hour longer, then they dare take it away, ei|ther by hook or crook, but it may prove a choak pear to them, when ever they goe about it. But Sir, &s;aid I, I thought I had been &s;afe enough, when I &s;quared my actions by the Rules of tho&s;e Laws, that they have often &s;worn, declared, and promi&s;ed year after year, and month after month to maintain and defend; and make as the &s;tandard or touch&s;tone betwixt them and the people, as they have done, with the Petition of Right, &amp;c.</P>
<P>I but &s;aith he, <HI>I will &s;hew you your great mi&s;take in that particular, and that you &s;afety lyes not therein:</HI> &s;o I longed to hear that, <HI>Well,</HI> &s;aith he, <HI>their mindes may change, and
<PB N="8" REF="5"> then where are you?</HI> I but Sir, &s;aid I, I cannot take notice of what is in their mindes to obey that; but the con&s;tant Declaration of their mindes, (without ever &s;o much as in any one Declaration contradicting it) as that they will maintain the Petition of RIGHT, and the Liberties therein contained, mu&s;t bee the rule of my obedi|ence: And the Petition of RIGHT, by rea&s;on of their con&s;tant Declarations to pre|&s;erve it, I make the rule of my obedience and actings among&s;t men, and think I &s;hall be <GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="faint" EXTENT="1 word"> thereby: but when they &s;hall publiquely declare, They &s;corn the Petition of RIGHT, and will neither maintain that nor any other Laws or compacts among&s;t the men of this Nation, but what flows daily from their wils and plea&s;ures; I &s;hall alter my minde, and expect no benefit by the Petition of RIGHT; but when that is, let me tell you, I &s;hall rather de&s;ire to live in Turkie under the great Turk, then in <HI>England</HI> under your Religious Ma&s;te<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="missing" EXTENT="1 letter">s at White-hall and We&s;tmin&s;ter; for there is no &s;uch Ty|rant or per&s;ecuter in the world, as an Apo&s;tate, that one turns his back of Ju&s;tice Righ|teou&s;ne&s;s and truth: But Mr. <HI>Peter,</HI> as or things at pre&s;ent, tell your Ma&s;ters from me, That if it were po&s;&s;ible for me now to chu&s;e, I &s;<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="faint" EXTENT="1+ letters"> rather chu&s;e to live &s;even years under old King <HI>Charls</HI> his government, (nothwith&s;tanding their beheading him as a Tyrant fo<GAP DESC="illegible" REASON="faint" EXTENT="1+ letters">) when it was at the wor&s;t before this Parliament, then live one year under their pre&s;ent Government that now rule: nay, &s;et me tell you, If they go on with that tyranny they are in, they will make Prince <HI>Charls</HI> have friends enow, not only to cry him up, but al&s;o really to fight for him to bring him into his Fathers Throne, that &s;o they may have their ju&s;t de&s;ires of perfidious cruel bloody Tyrants, and the people of the Land &s;ome ca&s;e and re&s;t from their in&s;upportable burthens and oppre&s;&s;ions: Yea, and for my particu|lar, I mu&s;t aver unto you, I had rather by many degrees chu&s;e to live under a regulated and wel-bounded King without tyrannie, then under any Government with Tyranny. Here is the &s;ub&s;tance of my di&s;cour&s;e with Mr. PETER, &s;aving I pinched him a little particularly upon his great Ma&s;ters large &s;ingering of the Common wealths money, which was no better then Theft in them, and State-Robbery in the highe&s;t, (as I told him.) <HI>I but,</HI> &s;uch he, <HI>Ireton hath got none:</HI> Then, &s;aid I, former Reports are fal&s;e; and be&s;ides, if he have not, what need he, when his Father-in-law gets &s;o much for them both, as 3 or 4000 <HI>l. per annum</HI> at one clap; with well-nigh twenty thou&s;and pounds worth of wood upon it, if Parliament mens relations may be beleeved: be&s;ides, the People that know them, know the Father and Son pi&s;s both in one gullie; though they &s;eem &s;omtime to go one again&s;t another, yet it is but that they may the more ea&s;ily and throughly drive on the main de&s;ign of them both: viz. <HI>To make the People &s;laves,</HI> And &s;o farewell Mr. <HI>Peter.</HI></P>
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