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<DATE>2008-01-24</DATE>
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<TEXT LANG="eng">
<FRONT>
<DIV1 TYPE="title page">
<PB REF="1">
<P>Innocency and Truth
Triumphing together;
OR,
The latter part of an ANSWER to the
back-part of a DISCOURSE, lately publi&s;hed
By <HI>William Prynne</HI> E&s;quire,
called, <HI>A FULL REPLY,</HI> &amp;c. Beginning at the foot of <HI>p.</HI> 17. of the &s;aid <HI>Di&s;cour&s;e,</HI> with
this title or &s;uper&s;cription, <HI>Certain brief Animadver&s;ions
on</HI> M^r. JOHN GOODWINS <HI>Theomachia.</HI>
Wherein the Argumentative part of the &s;aid
<HI>Animadver&s;ions</HI> is examined;
Together with &s;ome few <HI>Animadver&s;ions</HI> upon &s;ome former
Pa&s;&s;ages in the &s;aid <HI>REPLY.</HI></P>
<Q><P>Qui innocentiae debitum &s;ervat, poenitentiae non &s;olvit u&s;uram, </P><BIBL>Chry&s;o&s;t.</BIBL></Q>
<Q><P>Nolo mihi imperet ille vel ille, qui me opprimere pote&s;t, docere non pote&s;t, </P><BIBL>Hieronymus.</BIBL></Q>
<Q><P>Non e&s;t delicata in Deum, &amp; &s;ecura confe&s;&s;io: qui in me credit, debet &s;anguinem &s;uum
&s;undere </P><BIBL>ibidem.</BIBL></Q>
<Q><P>Igno&s;ci potuit &s;impliciter errantibus: po&s;t in&s;pirationem ver&ograve; &amp; revelationem factam,
&s;ine ignorantiae veni&acirc; peccatur, </P><BIBL>Cypr. Ep.</BIBL></Q>
<Q><P>Pios hoc nomen &amp; titulum in mundo oportet gerere, qu&ograve;d &s;editio&s;i ac &s;chi&s;matici, ac
infinitorum malorum authores &s;unt, </P><BIBL>Lutherus Gal. c. 5.</BIBL></Q>
<Q><P>Not that wee have dominion over your faith: but are helpers of your joy, 2 <HI>Cor.</HI> 1. 24.
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if any of yee be otherwi&s;e
minded, God &s;hall reveale even the &s;ame unto you, </P><BIBL>Phil. 3. 15.</BIBL></Q>
<P>Licen&s;ed and Printed according to Order.</P>
<P><HI>LONDON;</HI>
Printed by <HI>Matthew Simmons,</HI> for <HI>Henry Overton,</HI>
at his Shop in <HI>Popes-head</HI>-Alley, 1645.</P>
</DIV1>
<DIV1 TYPE="to the reader">
<PB REF="2">
<PB REF="2">
<HEAD>To the unpartiall and unprejudic'd
READER.</HEAD>
<P><HI>_AM I therefore become your enemy,
becau&s;e I tell you the truth</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">1 Cor. 15. 10.</NOTE>, (&s;aith
the fir&s;t-born<NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">1 Cor. 15. 8.</NOTE>, and yet the la&s;t born al|&s;o
<NOTE N="c" PLACE="marg">Gal. 14. 16.</NOTE>, of the Apo&s;tles to his <HI>Galathians;</HI>)
The interrogation is a con&s;tructive a&s;&s;er|tion
of two things. Fir&s;t, that to &s;peak the
truth in &s;ome ca&s;es, is very opportune to &s;ini&s;ter interpreta|tion,
and apt to repre&s;ent the &s;peaker as a man of no benevo|lous
or friendly comportance with tho&s;e, to whom he &s;o &s;peak|eth.
The rea&s;on whereof &s;eems to be this: Errors and mi&s;pri|&s;ions
are many times very indulgent and bountifull to the
fle&s;h; and he that incounters men under &s;uch injoyments,
with the truth, &s;eems to them rather to &s;trike at the&s;e injoy|ments,
then at the error or opinion, by who&s;e con&s;ent they
have fir&s;t taken, and &s;till keep po&s;&s;e&s;sion of them. Them&s;elves
e&s;teeming the opinion of &s;mall value (as well it de&s;erves)
&s;ave onely in reference to tho&s;e carnall gratifications; are
very apt to conceive that neither doe others &s;o much minde
that, or take offence at that, as at tho&s;e priviledges or accom|modations
which they injoy by it: and this they judge to be
a &s;traine of an ho&s;tile inclination.</P>
<P>Secondly, The prementioned Interrogation &s;uppo&s;eth, that
no manife&s;tation or &s;peaking of what truth &s;oever unto men,
&s;imply as &s;uch, is any argument at all of want of affection,
and that in the highe&s;t, unto them. The rea&s;on is, becau&s;e
<PB REF="3">
there is no Truth, which being imbraced, and honoured with
&s;utable practi&s;e, but will give farre better wages and con&s;i|deration
to her &s;ervants in due time, then any error what&s;o|ever.
Yea, the truth is, that the greater breach, or &s;poyle, a
Truth makes in any mans worldly po&s;&s;e&s;sions or enjoyments,
it is of &s;o much the richer and the more advantagious con|cernment
unto him, and will honour him the more abundant|ly.
It is the manner and gui&s;e of divine truth, to pull downe
hou&s;es built with firres and brick, and to build them up a|gaine
with cedars and hewne &s;tones.</P>
<P>He that deals much either in the di&s;coverie, (or recovery
rather) or inforcement of &s;uch truths, which are oppo&s;ed in
the world, not onely by errors and contrary mi&s;pri&s;ons, but
by &s;ecular accommodations al&s;o, as of honour, power, riches,
plea&s;ures, or the like, takes a very direct cour&s;e to make him|&s;elf
conformable to the image of his Saviour, who being &s;o
great a Benefactor to the world, was yet <HI>numbred among&s;t
Tran&s;gre&s;&s;ors.</HI> To attempt the <HI>ca&s;ting downe of</HI> &s;uch <HI>i|magination,
which</HI> do not onely <HI>exalt them&s;elves</HI> in the
minds of men, but contribute al&s;o to the exaltation of men
them&s;elves in the world, be they never &s;o extravagant or ec|centricall
to the truth, is an undertaking of almo&s;t as doubt|full
a pre&s;age, as they that &s;peak Proverbs are wont to repre|&s;ent
by the <HI>taking a Lion by the beard, or an Elephant
by the tooth.</HI> And did not the God of Truth umpire
(and that with an high hand) among&s;t the thoughts and
coun&s;ells of the &s;ons of men, and put many a by ingredient
into his providence of &s;overaign reliefe to tho&s;e, who&s;e hearts
are &s;et, and hands lift up to magnifie &s;uch Truths, which be|ing
advanced are like to doe ju&s;tice in the world, and to re|duce
all u&s;urpations and unrighteous detainments among&s;t
men,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Amos 7. 10.</NOTE> the Earth would not <HI>be able to beare the words</HI> of
&s;uch men; and the world &s;oone become too hot a climate for
Truths of &s;uch a complexion.</P>
<P><PB REF="3">
It is a matter of &s;omewhat a &s;ad contemplation, (and yet
in part, delightfull al&s;o, <HI>viz.</HI> as tho&s;e Oracles of Heaven,
the Scriptures, are mightily a&s;&s;erted and vindicated like
them&s;elves thereby) to &s;ee, what commotions, tumults, and
combu&s;tions are pre&s;ently rai&s;ed in the minds and &s;pirits of
men upon the birth (or re&s;urrection rather) of any Truth in|to
the world, concerning which there is the lea&s;t jealou&s;ie,
that in ca&s;e it &s;hould reigne, it would rack them from off the
lees of their old cu&s;tomes, or compell them to a re&s;titution of
what they have unju&s;tly taken, and peaceably injoyed for a
long time, or any wayes expo&s;e them to any outward &s;uffer|ings,
or di&s;accommodations in the world; to &s;ee, what hurry|ings
up and downe, what ingaging of parties, what inqui|ring
after parts and abilities, what rembling over Authors
old and new, what incen&s;ing of Authoritie, what &s;treynings
of wits and con&s;ciences, what &s;lighting of &s;olid arguments,
what evading &s;ub&s;tantiall and cleare interpretations of
Scripture, what magnifying of tho&s;e that are &s;treined and
farre fetch'd in their &s;tead, what ca&s;ting abroad of calumnies
and reproaches, what incru&s;tations, and mi&s;repre&s;entations
of opinions, &s;ayings, practi&s;es, actions, what &s;hiftings, what
blendings, what colourings, what pretendings, what di&s;|gracings,
yea, what conventings, what per&s;ecutions, what
evill intreatings of men, what appealings to fire, &s;word, pri|&s;ons,
bani&s;hment, confi&s;cations, and all to turn a beam of light
and glorie, into darknes &amp; &s;hame, to keep a new-born Truth
from ruling over them. As &s;oone as <HI>Herod the King</HI> heard
that Chri&s;t was borne, and that <HI>wi&s;e men were come from
the Ea&s;t to wor&s;hip him,</HI> inquiring after him, as <HI>a King;</HI>
the Text &s;aith,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Mat. 2. 1, 2, 3.</NOTE> that <HI>he was troubled, and all Jeru&s;alem
with him:</HI> and how unnaturall and bloudy a de&s;ign was there
pre&s;ently put in execution, to prevent the reigning of him
that was but now borne into the world? That <HI>one,</HI> who yet
<PB REF="4">
was their lawfull King, might not reigne over them, <HI>many</HI>
poore infants (innocents altogether in this) were not &s;uffe|red
to live among&s;t them. This Scene al&s;o was acted in <HI>Ger|many,</HI>
when God fir&s;t made <HI>Luther</HI> as <HI>life from the dead</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Rom. 11. 25.</NOTE>
vnto the Doctrine of free ju&s;tification and remi&s;sion of &s;ins;
a Doctrine not &s;o much oppo&s;ed by the Popi&s;h Tenet concern|ing
the vertue and validitie of Papall Indulgences, as by
the<NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">Auri &s;acra fames.</NOTE> &s;acred thir&s;t of that gold and &s;ilver which the trade of
&s;uch merchandize formerly driven by the Grand Seignior
of <HI>Rome</HI> and his Factors throughout the Chri&s;tian world,
brought into their coffers in that bewitching and tran&s;port|ing
abundance.</P>
<P>Reader,<NOTE PLACE="marg">2 Cor. 12. 5.</NOTE> of any wrong done to my &s;elf, I will not complaine:
but I know a man, who hath been for&s;aken of his friends,
found tho&s;e of his own hou&s;e to be his enemies, who hath been
reviled, traduced, reproached, way-laid, by tongues, by pens,
by practi&s;es, reported to have lo&s;t his wits, abilities, parts,
&s;uffered lo&s;&s;e of his due and nece&s;&s;ary &s;ub&s;i&s;tence, wrongfully
deteined from him, and for which he hath laboured faithful|ly,
brought before Rulers and Magi&s;trates, repre&s;ented to
Soveraigne Authoritie, as <HI>a wilfull and pre&s;umptuous
underminer of their undoubted priviledges,</HI> and that
<HI>diametrally contrary to his Vow and Covenant;</HI> be|&s;ides
twenty more hard &s;ayings and practi&s;es of men again&s;t
him; and all this for no other cau&s;e, upon none other ground
or exception, but onely becau&s;e he holds forth &s;uch a Truth
(as in all his heart and all his &s;oule he is verily per&s;waded)
which, if entertained, is like to ble&s;&s;e the world, though it be
<HI>as by fire,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">1 Cor. 3. 15.</NOTE> I meane by ca&s;ting downe the pre&s;ent thoughts,
and cro&s;sing the pre&s;ent de&s;ires and de&s;igns of many in it:
Of the injuries &amp; indignities offered to &s;uch a man, I have
cau&s;e (with many others) to complaine; but for any &s;uffer|ings
or evill intreaties of mine own from men, I count it be|neath
<PB REF="4">
my ingagements to him, who &s;trengtheneth me to doe
and to &s;uffer all things<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg"><GAP DESC="foreign">. Phil. 4. 13.</NOTE>, to &s;toop to take up any lamentati|on
or complaint.</P>
<P>In the&s;e leaves following, I make payment of a debt unto
thee, contracted by a promi&s;e and ingagement made in my
late briefe defence, which I &s;tyled, <HI>Innocencies Triumph;</HI>
with &s;ome &s;mall additionall con&s;ideration, for thy pre&s;ent
forbearance. For in the former &s;ections till about pag. 54.
I animadvert upon &s;ome &s;elect pa&s;&s;ages in the former part
and body of that piece, in who&s;e tayle lies the &s;ting of my ac|cu&s;ation;
the pulling out whereof, is my taske from the third
&s;ection unto the end. In the carriage of the di&s;cour&s;e, I pro|jected
the&s;e foure; Brevitie, per&s;ecuitie, moderation, &s;ati&s;|faction.
How I have performed or pro&s;pered in my de&s;igne,
is a ca&s;e now pre&s;ented unto the Great Judicatorie of the
world to judge and determine. I &s;hall not court thy favour
or approbation: if thou wilt deale hardly either with the
Truth or her Friends, at thine own perill be it: Injure what
thou can&s;t, we &s;hall be repaired; yea, and have all our for|bearance
and delay, in full con&s;ideration and recompence.
<HI>Yet a very little while, and he that doth come, will
come, and will not tarry</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Heb. 10. 37</NOTE>: and behold, <HI>his reward is
with him</HI><NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">Rev. 22. 12</NOTE>. In the day of who&s;e <HI>coming,</HI> however thou
&s;halt deale with me in the <HI>interim,</HI> I cordially wi&s;h thee
peace, and that lifting up of the head, after which it &s;hall
never hang downe more.</P>
<CLOSER><DATELINE>From my Study in <HI>Coleman-&s;treet,</HI>
<DATE>Jan. 8. 1644.</DATE></DATELINE>
<SIGNED>Thine, all that thy &s;oule de&s;i|reth,
in the love of the truth,
J. G.</SIGNED></CLOSER>
</DIV1>
<DIV1 TYPE="errata">
<PB REF="5">
<HEAD>Errata.</HEAD>
<P>Pag. 3. <HI>line 36. dele,</HI> only, and clo&s;e the parenthe&s;is at the word,
government.</P>
<P><HI>P.</HI> 8. l. 26. dele,).</P>
<P>P. 17. <HI>l.</HI> 5. for <HI>vere,</HI> r. <HI>vero.</HI></P>
<P>P. 13. <HI>l.</HI> 7. for apparent, <HI>r.</HI> apparan.</P>
<P>P. 39. <HI>l.</HI> 3. for di&s;tances, <HI>r.</HI> di&s;turbances; <HI>ibid. l.</HI> 36. for di&s;turban|ces,
<HI>r.</HI> di&s;turbance.</P>
<P>P. 47. <HI>l.</HI> 33. for, ingagements, <HI>r.</HI> inducements.</P>
<P>P. 49. <HI>l.</HI> 14. for, leave, <HI>r.</HI> give.</P>
<P>P. 51. <HI>l.</HI> 31. for, in ordinary, <HI>r.</HI> in an ordinary.</P>
<P>P. 53. <HI>l.</HI> 1. for, faith, <HI>r.</HI> truth.</P>
<P>P. 56. <HI>l.</HI> 34. for. prai&s;e, <HI>r.</HI> honour.</P>
<P>P. 59. <HI>l.</HI> 11. for, &s;till, <HI>r.</HI> till.</P>
<P>P. 61. <HI>l.</HI> 35. for, is more, <HI>r.</HI> is of more.</P>
<P>P. 62. <HI>l.</HI> 15. in the margent, for <HI>ip&s;a,</HI> r. <HI>ip&s;am.</HI></P>
<P>P. 65. <HI>l.</HI> 4. for, precedent, <HI>r.</HI> pre&s;ident. <HI>ibid. l.</HI> 12. for guiltie, <HI>r.</HI> guilt.</P>
<P>P. 68. <HI>l.</HI> 9. tho&s;e words, and la&s;tly, to be clo&s;ed in a parenthe&s;is.</P>
<P>P. 70. <HI>l.</HI> 18. for, together by, <HI>r.</HI> together for by.</P>
<P>P. 80. <HI>l.</HI> 10. for, the, <HI>r.</HI> that.</P>
<P>P. 87. <HI>l.</HI> 25. for, exemptively, <HI>r.</HI> executively.</P>
<P>Some other le&s;&s;er mi&s;takes, as in points, parenthe&s;es, or the like,
the Reader is de&s;ired to pardon, and amend.</P>
</DIV1>
</FRONT>
<BODY>
<DIV1 TYPE="text">
<PB N="1" REF="5">
<HEAD>Innocency and Truth
Triumphing together:
OR,
The latter Part of an ANSWER to
the back-part of a Di&s;cour&s;e, lately publi&s;hed
by WILLIAM PRYNNE E&s;quire, called,
A FULL REPLY, &amp;c.</HEAD>
<P><HI>_THe Gentleman who hath vouch&s;afed me the
honour of &s;o noble an Antagoni&s;t,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 1.</NOTE> <HI>as him|&s;elf,</HI>
p. 8. <HI>of his</HI> Full Reply, <HI>hath this inge|nuous
&s;aying:</HI> I pre&s;ume my friends are &s;o in|genuous,
as not to be offended with mee for re|proving
only their errours with ingenuous free|dome,
in which I manife&s;t my &s;elf their greate&s;t
friend, becau&s;e I neither &s;pare nor flatter them in
their mi&s;takes. <HI>I cannot doubt, but that hee will put the &s;ame in|terpretation
upon the</HI> ingenuous freedome of his friend in the &s;ame kind,
<HI>which hee</HI> pre&s;umes his friends <HI>will put upon his; and will make no
other con&s;truction of</HI> my not-&s;paring or flattering him in his mi&s;takes,
<HI>then as a</HI> manife&s;tation of my &s;elf to be his greate&s;t friend. <HI>The truth
is, that if he &s;hall put any other con&s;truction upon them, but this,
it is a &s;igne that he under&s;tands not the dialect or language of mine
intentions.</HI></P>
<P><PB N="2" REF="6">
Upon the &s;tock of &s;o faire and rich an incouragement,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 2.</NOTE> as this,
I conceive it very proper for mee to graffe (at lea&s;t) the pre&s;enta|tion
of &s;ome errors and mi&s;takes (more then &s;o called) to Ma&s;ter
<HI>Prynnes</HI> view, which him&s;elf had fir&s;t &s;catteringly, pre&s;ented to the
view of the world, in his late piece, called, <HI>A full Reply, &amp;c.</HI> and
will (I tru&s;t) a&s;&s;i&s;t my Pen with his in the cen&s;ure and condemna|tion
of them; I make no que&s;tion, but that he will acknowledge
it an <HI>errour and mi&s;take</HI> in any man, to <HI>confute concealed errours and
mi&s;takes</HI> with tho&s;e that are open and profe&s;&s;ed. Hee makes a &s;ad
complaint (in the very beginning of his work) that his <HI>condition</HI>
&s;till hath been to have his <HI>be&s;t actions and publique &s;ervices</HI> (he means
performed by his Pen) <HI>mi&s;con&s;trued</HI> and <HI>traduced;</HI> and yet a few
lines after, hee affirms that his <HI>twelve Que&s;tions touching Church-Go|vernment,
gave ample &s;atisfaction to many truly Religious, of all ranks
and qualities, who returned him &s;peciall thanks.</HI> He that can give men,
yea, the be&s;t of men, men <HI>truly Religious,</HI> yea, not a few of the&s;e
men neither, but <HI>many,</HI> and that <HI>of all ranks and qualities &s;atisfacti|on,</HI>
yea, <HI>ample &s;atisfaction</HI> (and receive thanks accordingly) only
by <HI>asking Que&s;tions,</HI> &s;eems to write with <HI>Fortunatus</HI> his Pen; and
may well beare the burthen of much mi&s;pri&s;ion from other men,
out of the &s;trength of the joy of this rare &s;ucce&s;&s;e. Ordinarily,
men of greate&s;t worth and learning, have much ado <HI>to give &s;ati&s;|faction,</HI>
by the mo&s;t elaborate and exact re&s;olutions; which is ano|ther
<HI>manner of &s;ervice</HI> to the world, then <HI>asking Que&s;tions</HI> is: A weak
man may ask moe Que&s;tions in an houre, then &s;even wi&s;e men can
an&s;wer in &s;even yeeres. And when hee &s;aith, that <HI>our Saviour both
in&s;tructed and refuted his oppo&s;ites and auditors, by demanding Que&s;tions
only,</HI> I conceive it is a mi&s;take: As for tho&s;e Scriptures which hee
cites to prove this, &s;ome of them being more then half Chapters,
mo&s;t of them very large portions of Chapters; he that &s;hall plea&s;e
to peru&s;e them, &s;hall finde more in them, then <HI>demanding Que&s;tions
only.</HI> No <HI>que&s;tion demanded</HI> by our Saviour was further <HI>in&s;tructive,</HI>
then as it gave occa&s;ion to an an&s;wer. It is the <HI>marrow</HI> of the an|&s;wer,
not the <HI>bone</HI> of the Que&s;tion that nouri&s;heth with in&s;truction;
And <HI>Luke</HI> 2. 47. (the fir&s;t Scripture alledged by him in this Cau&s;e)
it is &s;aid, <HI>That all that heard him were a&s;toni&s;hed at his under&s;tanding
and ANSWERS,</HI> not at his Que&s;tions. Notwith&s;tanding, we ac|knowledge
<HI>Ari&s;totles</HI> <GAP DESC="foreign"> to be very u&s;efull and &s;ervice|able
<PB N="3" REF="6">
for the advancement of knowledge; only herein we mu&s;t crave
pardon, if we judge it no &s;igne of any depth or thoroughne&s;s in an
Argument or Subject, to be imperious and &s;ore in asking Que&s;tions
about it, and but weak and &s;uperficiall in giving An&s;wers.</P>
<P>Again,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 3.</NOTE> whereas hee &s;uppo&s;eth, <HI>p.</HI> 4. that <HI>Independent Mini&s;ters
and Congregations lay claim to a &s;overaign Temporall all Juri&s;diction,</HI> for <HI>the
pre&s;cribing and &s;etting up of a Church-Government;</HI> certainly it is a
mi&s;take, (what&s;oever it is more) they claim to <HI>Juri&s;diction</HI> at all,
much le&s;&s;e any <HI>temporall Juri&s;diction,</HI> lea&s;t of all any <HI>&s;overaign Juri&s;|diction,</HI>
to <HI>pre&s;cribe</HI> unto any (much le&s;s, to command or injoyn un|der
penalties, which is proper to <HI>&s;overaign Temporall Juri&s;diction</HI>) any
<HI>Church-Government</HI> what&s;oever: they only &s;ubmit to that <HI>good and
holy and perfect Will of God,</HI> for the regulation of them&s;elves, in point
of order among&s;t them&s;elves, as far as he hath plea&s;ed to inlighten
them with the knowledge thereof; without taking any offence at
others, for being contrary-minded to them, and without the lea&s;t
&s;emblance or &s;hew of claiming any <HI>Authoritative</HI> or <HI>Temporall power</HI>
to impo&s;e or force what they practi&s;e them&s;elves upon others.</P>
<P>Again, whereas becau&s;e &s;ome of the Independents (as he char|geth
them, <HI>p.</HI> 5. whether truly or no, I can neither affirm, nor deny)
<HI>refu&s;e to heare the Scriptures read in our Churches,</HI> hee thinks to evict
this practice of theirs, by proving (and that by no le&s;&s;e then thir|teen
Texts of Scripture) that <HI>publique reading of them is an ordinance
of God;</HI> I conceive it is a defect or <HI>mi&s;take</HI> in point of proof. Be|cau&s;e,
if &s;uch <HI>refu&s;all</HI> be made by any, it is not made either upon
denying or que&s;tioning, whether <HI>publike reading of the Scriptures,
be an Ordinance of God;</HI> but either upon que&s;tioning, whether the
bare reading of them in publique, without giving the &s;en&s;e of them,
or framing &s;ome exhortation upon them, or the like, be an Ordi|nance
of God (which &s;ome of the Scriptures cited by him&s;elf, par|ticularly,
<HI>Neh.</HI> 8. 8. make very que&s;tionable) or el&s;e upon this rea&s;on
and ground of con&s;cience, that a man may very &s;afely refu&s;e an in|feriour
accommodation for his &s;oul, when he hath a lawfull op|portunity
to injoy a &s;uperiour.</P>
<P>Again,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 4.</NOTE> whereas he affirms, <HI>p. 5. the only point in que&s;tion</HI> (I pre|&s;ume
he means about Church-Government only to be, whether
<HI>the Independent modell alone be that exact, unalterable form of Church-Government,
which Chri&s;t hath punctually &amp; particularly &s;et down for all
<PB N="4" REF="7">
Chri&s;tian nations, Churches to follow;</HI> and yet both in the &s;ame <HI>page</HI>
afterwards, and in &s;everall pa&s;&s;ages be&s;ides in this <HI>Di&s;cour&s;e,</HI> denies
that there is any &s;uch <HI>form of Government, &s;o punctually and particuar|ly
&s;et down by Chri&s;t,</HI> doubtles it cannot but be <HI>a mi&s;take,</HI> if it amounts
not to an error: for they that hold the <HI>Independent modell</HI> (as hee
calleth it) to be the <HI>only form of Church-Government, which Chri&s;t hath
&s;o punctually and particularly &s;et down,</HI> mu&s;t needs hold withall, that
Chri&s;t hath &s;et down a form of Church-Government upon &s;uch
terms, I mean, which is, and mu&s;t be, <HI>unalterable.</HI> Now M^r. <HI>Prynne,</HI>
(with many others of his judgement, in this controver&s;ie) denying
this latter opinion, as well as the former, evident it is, that the for|mer
cannot be <HI>the only point in que&s;tion.</HI> But the truth is, that be&s;ides
both the one point &amp; the other, there are many others in que&s;tion,
though po&s;&s;ibly not of that difficulty or importance: yea, him&s;elf
in the following <HI>page,</HI> propounds another que&s;tion, differing from
this, to which notwith&s;tanding hee appropriates the &s;ame honour,
and affirms it to be the <HI>&s;ole Que&s;tion</HI> too.</P>
<P>Again,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 5.</NOTE> <HI>p.</HI> 6. whereas he determines, <HI>moderated or regulated Epi&s;co|pacy,</HI>
to be <HI>the &s;ame with Presbyterie;</HI> I conceive this determination
will hardly be voted orthodox in the A&s;&s;embly it &s;elf, nor in the
generall A&s;&s;embly of the Church of <HI>Scotland.</HI> For my part, though
I cannot approve of it as matter of truth, yet for matter of incon|venience
otherwi&s;e, I have nothing to charge it with.</P>
<P>Again, whereas (in the &s;ame <HI>page</HI>) in ca&s;e <HI>the Parliament by the
Synods advice, &s;hould unanimou&s;ly e&s;tabli&s;h a moderated Epi&s;copacy, as
mo&s;t con&s;onant to the Scriptures,</HI> he profe&s;&s;eth for him&s;elf, that hee
<HI>&s;hall readily &s;ubmit unto it;</HI> and withall demands of the Anti-Queri&s;t,
<HI>Why not hee, and all others?</HI> as if either the <HI>con&s;onancy</HI> of
a practice to the Scriptures, or the example of one man <HI>&s;ubmit|ting</HI>
unto it as con&s;onant thereunto, were a &s;ufficient ground for
all men what&s;oever to &s;ubmit likewi&s;e unto it, without any more
ado; this &s;avours &s;trongly of that error, which comports &s;o well
with the practice of &s;ome, <HI>viz.</HI> that if men in Authority &s;hall
conclude and injoyn any thing, as <HI>con&s;onant to the Word of God,</HI>
all men are bound readily to &s;ubmit unto it, without <HI>asking any
Que&s;tion for con&s;cience &s;ake;</HI> yea, or whether they &s;ee either con&s;o|nancy
or di&s;&s;onancy in it thereunto.</P>
<P>Again,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 6.</NOTE> whereas he owns this &s;aying, <HI>p.</HI> 6. as the naturall i&s;&s;ue
<PB N="5" REF="7">
lawfully begotten of the body or &s;oule (th'one) of his own po&s;i|tion,
that <HI>Politicians and State&s;man are fit to be con&s;ulted with to &s;uit
a Church-government be&s;t to the Civill State;</HI> certainly it is no a&s;&s;er|tion
to be rejoyced in. For as the Apo&s;tles made their enemies
them&s;elves judges in this point between them, <HI>Whether it was meet
to obey God, or them:</HI> So &s;hall I willingly abide the arbitration of a|ny
of all tho&s;e that make but the lea&s;t con&s;cience of fearing God
and his King (Chri&s;t,) whether the government of Chri&s;ts Church
and Kingdome &s;hould conde&s;cend, and be compelled by Politici|ans
and State&s;men to doe obey&s;ance to civill States in accommo|dating
them; or whether the government of the&s;e &s;hould not ra|ther
veyle, and doe homage unto that, and deny them&s;elves in
their mo&s;t indeered Principles and maximes of State, to give all
accommodation and honour unto it. The truth is, that the govern|ment
of Chri&s;ts Kingdome in a civill State, will never do any great
thing for it, except it fir&s;t receive accommodation from it. The
truth knowes no compliance, but onely with tho&s;e that &s;ubmit
to it.</P>
<P>Whereas (pag.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 7.</NOTE> 6.) he placeth <HI>the whole repre&s;entative as well
Church as State of England in the Parliament,</HI> though I dare not gain-&s;ay
it, fearing le&s;t Mr. <HI>Pryn,</HI> claiming (as it &s;hould &s;eem) a priviledge
to make the privileges of Parliament what he plea&s;eth, &s;hould make
it <HI>a pre&s;umptuous and wilfull undermining of the undoubted priviledges
of Parliament by the very roots:</HI> yet I mu&s;t ingenuou&s;ly profe&s;&s;e, that
it is a notion which I know not how to procure quarter for in my
brain, as yet. What I may doe hereafter when the Gentleman &s;hall
be&s;tow more co&s;t and pains upon it to reconcile the di&s;proportion
which for the pre&s;ent it carrieth to my under&s;tanding, I will not
predetermine. But none of all the Authors or Books that ever yet
I was debtor unto, for any grain or &s;cruple of that knowledge
wherewith God hath plea&s;ed to recompence my labour in &s;tudy|ing,
ever licen&s;ed mee to call any A&s;&s;embly the Repre&s;entative
Church of any State or Kingdome wherein there is not &s;o much as
any one Church-officer to be found</P>
<P>Whereas he affirmes it (in the &s;ame page) <HI>a truth &s;o cleare,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 8.</NOTE> <HI>that no
rationall man, good Chri&s;tian, or &s;ubject, can deny it, that the whole re|pre&s;entative
Church and State of England in Parliament, have &s;ufficient
authoritie by Gods law to over-rule and bind all, or any particular mem|bers
<PB N="6" REF="8">
or congregations of it, as well as the major part of an Independent
Congregation, power to over-vote and rule the le&s;&s;er part, and to order
yea, bind any of their particular members;</HI> though for the danger a|fore&s;aid,
it be not (perhaps) &s;o &s;afe for me &s;imply to call the
latter a&s;&s;ertion touching the compari&s;on between the two
powers, either an error or a mi&s;take; yet that this a&s;&s;ertion
&s;hould be a truth &s;o royally qualified, that <HI>no rea&s;onable man, or
good Chri&s;tian can deny it,</HI> &s;eemes not &s;o rea&s;onable. The rea&s;on is,
becau&s;e in an Independent congregation, all the members by free
and voluntary con&s;ent have &s;ubmitted them&s;elves to the regulati|on
and order of the whole body, or (which is the &s;ame) of the
major part of it: and therefore this body having received a law|full
power in a lawfull way, for the reiglement of her re&s;pective
members, may lawfully exerci&s;e it according to the tenor and true
intent of the delegation of it: whereas there are many thou&s;ands
in the Church and State of <HI>England,</HI> who by Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> owne ac|knowledgement
(p. 24. line 3. 4.) have not given any &s;uch con&s;ent
for their regulation in matters Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall, and which concerne
Religion, unto the Parliament; yea, and there are many thou|&s;ands
more be&s;ides tho&s;e which hee there de&s;cribes and intends,
who will not owne any &s;uch Re&s;ignation. Therefore the difference
between the one ca&s;e and the other, is very broad, and no le&s;&s;e con|&s;iderable,
&s;o that <HI>a rea&s;onable man</HI> may without any di&s;prai&s;e to his
Rea&s;on, and <HI>a good Chri&s;tian,</HI> without any prejudice to the good|ne&s;&s;e
of his Chri&s;tianity, demurre a while before judgement upon
the ca&s;e.</P>
<P>Be&s;ides, there is no que&s;tion, or ground of doubting, but that a
<HI>good Chri&s;tian</HI> may lawfully, and with a good con&s;cience, &s;ubmit
him&s;elf unto a godly, able, and faithfull Pa&s;tor, together with his
people, whom he hath good ground to judge godly, and faithfull
al&s;o, as well for their edification in their <HI>mo&s;t holy faith,</HI> as for the in|&s;pection
&amp; regulation of them&s;elves in matters of life and conver|&s;ation:
But whether it be lawfull to &s;ubmit to any man, or any rank
or a&s;&s;ociation of men, (e&s;pecially of men, of who&s;e &s;ufficiencie and
faith fulne&s;&s;e in the things of God, and Je&s;us Chri&s;t, we have either
but a very &s;lender or no te&s;timony at all, yea who&s;e per&s;ons are al|together
unknowne to us) in matters which concerne the wor&s;hip
and &s;ervice of God, cannot but be a que&s;tion, and that of great
<PB N="7" REF="8">
moment, to all con&s;idering and con&s;cientious men, who are not
already &s;atisfied in the negative part of it. The Apo&s;tles doe not
onely permit, but give it in charge to Chri&s;tians in Church-fellow|&s;hip,
to <HI>&s;ubmit them&s;elves one to another in the feare of God, Eph.</HI> 5. 21.
<HI>i.</HI> to be yeelding, and tractable, ea&s;ie to be intreated one by ano|ther.
And, <HI>&s;ubmit your &s;elves every man unto another, 1 Pet.</HI> 5. 5. If one
man ought to <HI>&s;ubmit</HI> to another man in this kind, much more
ought one to <HI>&s;ubmit</HI> unto many, and mo&s;t of all to the whole &s;o|ciety
of Saints whereof he is a member. But as touching <HI>&s;ubmi&s;&s;ion</HI>
unto any man, or men what&s;oever in matters which concerne
the wor&s;hip and &s;ervice of God, the Scripture is &s;o farre from im|po&s;ing
this upon any man, that it impo&s;eth the contrary, and that
with great Empha&s;is and weight, <HI>Call no man your father upon earth,</HI>
(is our Saviours owne charge, <HI>Matth.</HI> 23. 9.) <HI>for one is your Father
which is in heaven.</HI> And in the preceding ver&s;e, <HI>Be ye not called Rab|bi:
for one is your ma&s;ter</HI> (or Doctor) <HI>even Chri&s;t, and ye all are brethren.</HI>
And the Apo&s;tle, 1 <HI>Cor. 7. 23. Yee are bought with a price, be ye not the
&s;ervants of men.</HI> He &s;peakes of a &s;ervility or &s;ubjection in judge|ment
and con&s;cience, to the deci&s;ions or determinations of men
in matters of con&s;cience and Religion. And who&s;oever doth
<HI>&s;ubmit</HI> or &s;ubject him&s;elfe in things of this nature unto any
man or men who&s;oever, that is, re&s;igne up his judgement and con|&s;cience
to be ordered, obliged, and tied, by the meere authority or
magi&s;tery of men in &s;uch things, <HI>Call's men Fathers on earth, makes
him&s;elfe a &s;ervant unto men:</HI> and con&s;equently makes him&s;elf a tran&s;|gre&s;&s;or
both of our Saviours injunction and charge in this behalf,
and of his Apo&s;tles al&s;o.</P>
<P>Thirdly, he that &s;ubmits him&s;elfe to a Pa&s;tor and Congregati|on
of Saints for &s;uch regulation as hath been mentioned, is pre&s;u|med
to know and under&s;tand before-hand, of what &s;pirit both the
one and the other are; how matters appertaining to the wor&s;hip
and &s;ervice of God, are carried, managed, and ordered among&s;t
them; &s;o that he may with the full concurrence and con&s;ent of
his judgement and con&s;cience, &s;ubmit him&s;elfe unto them, as tou|ching
communion with them in their practice in this kind: but
what any Synod, A&s;&s;embly, or Court of men will determine or
enjoyn in &s;uch things, cannot be known before-hand by any man;
and con&s;equently, no man can with a good con&s;cience &s;ubmit
<PB N="8" REF="9">
him&s;elfe unto them, as touching any of their determinations or
deci&s;ions, untill he fir&s;t under&s;tands what they are, and whether
according to the light and judicature of his con&s;cience, agreeable
to the word of God.</P>
<P>Fourthly, in ca&s;e a Pa&s;tor and Congregation &s;hall after|wards
&s;o farre alter and vary from that po&s;ture either in Do|ctrine
or practice, wherein they &s;tood, when a man fir&s;t joyned and
&s;ubmitted him&s;elfe unto them, that hee cannot with the peace of
his con&s;cience walk any longer with them, hee may with leave ob|tained,
or otherwi&s;e if by reque&s;t it cannot be obtained, withdraw
him&s;elfe without any inconvenience, from their communion, and
incorporate him&s;elfe el&s;where, as he judgeth be&s;t. This may bee
done with farre le&s;&s;e trouble and inconvenience, then ordinarily a
man upon a di&s;like of his Parochial Pa&s;tor, can remove out of one
Pari&s;h into another. But when &s;uch things concerning the wor&s;hip
and &s;ervice of God, which a man cannot with a good con&s;cience
&s;ubmit unto, &s;hall be enacted and commanded, under mulcts and
penalties by tho&s;e that have power and authority over us, wee can|not
refu&s;e &s;ubjection hereunto, but at our perill, and with
the &s;u&s;taining of what detriment or dammage, whether in our e|&s;tates,
liberties, or otherwi&s;e, as the commanders &s;hall plea&s;e to
impo&s;e. Therefore the ca&s;e between a <HI>particular Congregation, and
the repre&s;entative body of a Kingdome,</HI> is farre different.</P>
<P>Fifthly and la&s;tly, the <HI>repre&s;entative Church and State of a King|dome,</HI>
may (and doth ordinarily) differ from it &s;elfe in poynt of
judgement touching matters of Religion) at &s;everall times, as
much as heaven and earth. Such Bodies in the dayes of Queene
<HI>Mary,</HI> and before, &s;tood up for Lordly Epi&s;copacie, which you
confe&s;&s;e, <HI>page</HI> 8. that Body which now is, hath by &s;olemne cove|nant
abjured. And be&s;ides, enacted many things concerning the
wor&s;hip &amp; &s;ervice of God, which other Bodies of the &s;ame repre|&s;entation
and power, have &s;ince repealed. And the nature and claim
of &s;uch Bodies as the&s;e in their &s;everall &s;ucce&s;&s;ions, is, that what
power&s;oever hath been either given unto, or exerci&s;ed by any of the
Predece&s;&s;ors, of right appertains to the Succe&s;&s;or. So that &s;uppo&s;e
the repre&s;entative Body now in being, &s;hall be freely and willingly
&s;ubmitted unto, as having a lawfull power to e&s;tabli&s;h what they
&s;hall plea&s;e in matters of Religion, as mo&s;t agreeable to the word
<PB N="9" REF="9">
of God: this &s;ubmi&s;&s;ion doth not onely intere&s;&s;e or confirm them
in this power, but in the con&s;equence and con&s;truction of it, is
the like intere&s;&s;ing and confirmation in the &s;ame power, of all their
&s;ucce&s;&s;ors, of what con&s;titution or judgement &s;oever they &s;hall bee
for matters of Religion. Whereas for particular Independent
Congregations (<HI>loquendum ut vulgus</HI>) their pre&s;ent con&s;titution be|ing
&s;ound &amp; &s;afe, as touching their members, being all in the judg|ment
of charity (and di&s;cretion too) per&s;ons of con&s;cience, and of
competent under&s;tanding, they are not like in an ordinary way of
providence, to degenerate or decline in their &s;ucce&s;&s;ors: and be&s;ides,
in ca&s;e they &s;hould, their intere&s;t and authority over any of their
members, may at any time, and under their greate&s;t confirmati|ons,
be declin'd without any con&s;iderable dammage, or inconve|ence,
as was formerly &s;hewed. So that Mr. <HI>Prynnes Truth</HI> now un|der
con&s;ideration (I meane his A&s;&s;ertion &s;o called) is nothing &s;o
cleare, but that <HI>a rationall man</HI> may <HI>deny it;</HI> yea, the more <HI>rationall</HI>
a man is, he is the more like to <HI>deny it.</HI></P>
<P>The Antiqueri&s;t having &s;aid,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 9.</NOTE> that <HI>the Saints think Chri&s;t alone is
King over his Churches, and hath not left them to Sub&s;titutes, &amp;c.</HI>
whereas Mr. <HI>Prynne,</HI> page 6. replies thus; <HI>If hee meanes it onely of
matters of Faith, or of internall government over the &s;oules of men, it may
pa&s;s as tolerable;</HI> it is (as I conceive) an expre&s;&s;ion which <HI>may not pa&s;s
as tolerable,</HI> being wor&s;e then an ordinary <HI>error,</HI> or then more then
an ordinary <HI>mi&s;take.</HI> He that calls any thing <HI>tolerable,</HI> mu&s;t needs
&s;uppo&s;e it either to be evil, or inconvenient (at the be&s;t.) Now if Mr.
<HI>Prynne</HI> thinks it either <HI>evill</HI> or <HI>inconvenient,</HI> that <HI>Chri&s;t &s;hould be King
alone over his Churches, in matters of faith and internall government of
their &s;oules,</HI> it is no marvell if he &s;eeks to intere&s;&s;e men in a Legi&s;la|tive
power over his Churches in re&s;pect of their externall govern|ment;
it is a marvell rather, that he &s;eekes not to infringe his title
and claime even to the <HI>internall government of their &s;oules</HI> al&s;o, and
that hee anoints not <HI>Repre&s;entative Bodies of Churches and States,</HI>
with authority to repeale the Articles of the old Creed, and
to enact another.</P>
<P>Whereas (in the &s;ame page) hee tells his Antiqueri&s;t,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 10.</NOTE> that <HI>hee
mu&s;t renounce his oath of Allegeance, his late Prote&s;tation, and Nationall
Vow and Covenant, make foure or five Canonicall Scriptures Apocrypha,</HI>
with &s;ome &s;uch other mormolukies as the&s;e, if he <HI>thinkes Chri&s;t to
<PB N="10" REF="10">
be King alone over his Churches,</HI> in point of <HI>externall Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall go|vernment,
Di&s;cipline, or Order;</HI> I conceive this con&s;equence of his to
be incon&s;equent &amp; <HI>a mi&s;take.</HI> For fir&s;t, the Scriptures he &s;pecifies, <HI>Rom</HI>
13. 1. to 6. 1 <HI>Pet. 2. 13. 14. Tit. 3. 1. 1 Tim.</HI> 2. 1, 2, 3, 4. &s;peake no|thing
of <HI>Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Government,</HI> nor of any &s;ubjection unto
Kings or Rulers in matters of Con&s;cience, or Religion; but one|ly
of that obedience which is due unto them in civill things: yea
&s;ome of them (the la&s;t by name) not &s;o much as of either. And
&s;econdly, for the <HI>Nationall vow and Covenant,</HI> doubtle&s;&s;e they that
took and &s;ware that, did not abjure the ab&s;olute Monarchicall In|dependent
power of Chri&s;t over his Churches, nor did they &s;wear
homage or fealty to any other Lord or Lords, but with a <HI>Salvo
jure, &amp;c.</HI> &s;aving the rights and priviledges of the Lord Paramount,
Je&s;us Chri&s;t; among&s;t which that is one of the mo&s;t <HI>undoubted</HI>
ones, to have the <HI>&s;ole dominion over the faith</HI> and con&s;ciences of men,
e&s;pecially in things concerning the wor&s;hip and &s;ervice of God.
And thirdly and la&s;tly, for the <HI>Oath of Allegeance,</HI> and <HI>late Prote|&s;tation,</HI>
either there is nothing contained in either of the&s;e, but what
is of a cleare and perfect con&s;i&s;tence with this <HI>&s;ole dominion of
Chri&s;t over the faith and con&s;ciences of men:</HI> or if there be, the renoun|cing
of them will be more honourable and &s;afe for Chri&s;tians, then
their taking of them was, or then their &s;tanding by their ingage|ment
in that kind will be.</P>
<P>But whereas (page 7.)<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 11.</NOTE> he affirmes, that <HI>Chri&s;t hath delegated his
Kingly power to Chri&s;tian Kings, Magi&s;trates, and highe&s;t civill pow|ers;</HI>
as likewi&s;e <HI>bequeathed his Propheticall Office unto Mini&s;ters:</HI> the&s;e
<HI>certo certius</HI> are <HI>errors</HI> in the highe&s;t, <HI>undermining</HI> (I &s;hall not abate,
<HI>wilfully and pre&s;umptuou&s;ly,</HI> in the reckoning) <HI>the undoubted privi|ledges</HI>
of the Throne of Je&s;us Chri&s;t <HI>by the very roots.</HI> For are not
the Offices of Chri&s;t incommunicable? appropriable only unto him
who is <GAP DESC="foreign">, God &amp; Man, and Mediator? Or is Chri&s;t retired
from the throne of his glory, to live privatly as a Reclu&s;e, to &s;olace
&amp; enjoy him&s;elfe in &s;ome &s;olitary angle or by-corner of heaven? Or
hath he eas'd his &s;houlder of that great burthen of the government
of the world, which was laid by God upon it, devolving it upon the
&s;houlders of others? Where is then the promi&s;e of the <HI>Everla&s;ting|ne&s;&s;e</HI>
of his Kingdome, and of the <HI>continuance of his dominion through|out
all ages?</HI> And where is the prediction of his <HI>delivering up his
<PB N="11" REF="10">
Kingdome unto his Father,</HI> if he hath <HI>delivered</HI> it up (or down rather)
unto men? Surely he means to call for it againe out of their hands,
before that day. But if <HI>Kings and Magi&s;trates have the Kingly Power
of Chri&s;t delegated unto them,</HI> they have <HI>all power given unto them both
in Heaven and Earth,</HI> and con&s;equently have not onely a right and
lawfullne&s;&s;e of Authoritie to command as well all the Angels of
Heaven, as men on Earth, but al&s;o to incline and bow the hearts
of both, to the willing execution &amp; fulfilling of tho&s;e commands.
And if &s;o, let them impo&s;e what Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Government or Di|&s;cipline
they plea&s;e, they may, if they plea&s;e, be obeyed and &s;ubmit|ted
unto upon what terms, with what willingne&s;&s;e and readine&s;&s;e,
and by whom they de&s;ire. And if <HI>Mini&s;ters</HI> be inve&s;ted <HI>in the Pro|pheticall
office of Chri&s;t,</HI> how dares M^r <HI>Prynne</HI> refu&s;e to hearken unto
them? or ingage him&s;elf in a theologicall warre again&s;t them, ha|ving
no part or fellow&s;hip in this <HI>office</HI> him&s;elf? Will he &s;ubject the
&s;pirit of the Prophets, yea, of tho&s;e that prophecie in the Authori|tie,
and by the vertue of <HI>the Propheticall office of Chri&s;t,</HI> unto him&s;elf,
and his own &s;pirit, being no Prophet at all? <HI>Letentur tenebrae, eru|be&s;cat
lux.</HI></P>
<P>Againe,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 12.</NOTE> whereas (in the &s;ame page) he votes, that <HI>if any man de|ny</HI>
a certain odd kind of <HI>veritie</HI> (&s;o called and a&s;&s;erted by him) <HI>he mu&s;t
renounce not onely his Chri&s;tianitie, but his Allegeance and Humanitie
too;</HI> I utterly <HI>renounce</HI> the con&s;equence, conceiving it to be <HI>tanta|mont</HI>
with an ab&s;olute mi&s;take. For a man may deny, that <HI>every
Chri&s;tian in point of Con&s;cience is bound by the expre&s;&s;e re&s;olution of Rom.</HI>
13. 1. 1 <HI>Pet.</HI> 2. 14, 15. (with &s;everall other Scriptures as little to the
purpo&s;e) <HI>without any danger of blind obedience, to lawfull decreas, con|&s;onant
to Gods Word, &amp;c.</HI> without <HI>renouncing,</HI> yea, or &s;o much as a
&s;hew of <HI>renouncing his Chri&s;tianitie</HI> (and much more of his <HI>Humani|tie.</HI>)
For what hath a mans <HI>humanitie</HI> to doe with <HI>the expre&s;&s;e re&s;olu|tion</HI>
of <HI>Rom.</HI> 13. 1. to 6. <HI>Ezra. 7. 26. Jo&s;h.</HI> 1. 16, 17, &amp;c. Or what hath
the <HI>expre&s;&s;e Re&s;olution</HI> of the&s;e and other Texts, to pre&s;erve a mans
<HI>Chri&s;tianitie</HI> from <HI>the danger of bind obedience,</HI> even <HI>to lawfull decrees,</HI>
in ca&s;e the lawfulne&s;&s;e of them be not &s;eene, nor &s;o much as exami|ned,
by tho&s;e that &s;ubmit unto them? A man is in the &s;ame <HI>danger
of blind obedience,</HI> as well in re&s;pect of lawfull, as unlawfull decrees.
Yea, a man that after a &s;erious and con&s;cientious debate, &s;hall upon
a mi&s;taken ground &s;ubmit unto an unlawfull <HI>decree,</HI> acquits him&s;elf
<PB N="12" REF="11">
more like a Chri&s;tian, and with better acceptation unto God by
following the light of his con&s;cience upon &s;uch terms, then he that
&s;hall &s;ubject him&s;elf unto a <HI>lawfull decree,</HI> without knowing, or ca|ring
to know, what, why, or wherefore he &s;o doth.</P>
<P>Againe,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 13.</NOTE> Whereas (in the &s;ame page) he taxeth the Anti-que|ri&s;t
for <HI>pre&s;uming an over&s;ight in the Parliament and Synod, before it be
actually committed,</HI> and cen&s;ures this (imaginary) act of his, as <HI>nei|ther
Chri&s;tian, charitable, nor any way of Chri&s;t;</HI> and for the proofe
hereof, cites 1 <HI>Cor.</HI> 13. 5. 7. Certainly, all this is an <HI>over&s;ight,</HI> and
nothing els but the <HI>pre&s;uming</HI> of an <HI>over&s;ight,</HI> where none is. For he
that &s;aith thus, <HI>Suppo&s;e the whole Parliament and Synod &s;hould erre in
commanding a Government, &amp;c.</HI> doth not &s;o much as <HI>&s;uppo&s;e,</HI> much
le&s;&s;e <HI>pre&s;ume,</HI> that either of them will &s;o <HI>erre;</HI> no more then the A|po&s;tle
<HI>Paul,</HI> in &s;aying, <HI>If Chri&s;t be not ri&s;en</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">1 Cor. 15. 14.</NOTE>, <HI>pre&s;umes,</HI> that Chri&s;t is
not ri&s;en: lea&s;t of all doth that Text, 1 <HI>Cor.</HI> 13. 5. 7. prove that act
or &s;peech of the Anti-queri&s;t here taxed, to be either unchri&s;tian,
or uncharitable.</P>
<P>Nor is that marginall note in the &s;ame page excu&s;able at any
lower rate then a mi&s;take of that kind,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 14.</NOTE> which they that &s;peak &s;pa|ringly,
are wont to call an <HI>untruth;</HI> which chargeth the Indepen|dent
party, that <HI>without di&s;covery or proofe of their way, they will have
the</HI> Presbyterians <HI>blindly to &s;ubmit unto it, as the onely way of Chri&s;t.</HI>
Never was a poor innocent margin compell'd to carry a more guil|ty
Annotation then this. It is the fir&s;t-born of abhorrencies in In|dependency,
to compell any man <HI>blindly to &s;ubmit</HI> unto any thing.
That infinuation following, is an arrow &s;hot from the &s;ame bow,
<HI>viz.</HI> that the Anti-queri&s;t and <HI>his, oppo&s;e and prejudicate both the Par|liaments
and Synods Proceedings, though never &s;o pious, con&s;cientious and
religious.</HI> This were &s;omething to the purpo&s;e, if there were any
thing to the proofe. <HI>Ver&ugrave;m de genere hoc ade&ograve; &s;unt multa, &amp;c.</HI></P>
<P>Whereas <HI>p.</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 15.</NOTE> 8. becau&s;e the two Brethren in their Reply to <HI>A. S.</HI>
u&s;ed this expre&s;&s;ion concerning the Congregationall Government,
that <HI>in time it cannot but overthrow all other &s;orts of Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Go|vernment,</HI>
he gathers upon them with this in&s;ulting Interrogatory;
<HI>Is it not then a turbulent, dangerous, &s;chi&s;maticall, unquiet</HI> (that I &s;ay
not, in&s;ufferable) <HI>Government by your own confe&s;&s;ions, which will admit
no equall nor corrivall, &amp;c.</HI> is not this, either through weakne&s;&s;e of
under&s;tanding, or &s;trength of a wor&s;e principle, an <HI>in&s;ufferable</HI> in|terpretation?
<PB N="13" REF="11">
Or can it but call to remembrance, that te&s;timony of
tho&s;e two again&s;t our Saviour (who are call'd <HI>fal&s;e witne&s;&s;es</HI> for
their labour, <HI>Mat.</HI> 26. 60.) wherein they te&s;tified, that he had &s;aid,
<HI>I can de&s;troy the Temple of God, and build it againe in three dayes,</HI> as if
he had &s;pake concerning the materiall Temple, whereas it is evi|dent
from <HI>Joh.</HI> 2. 21. that <HI>he &s;pake concerning the Temple of his body?</HI>
In like manner, what the two Brethren &s;pake (as is mo&s;t apparent
in the pa&s;&s;age cited by him from <HI>p.</HI> 111. of the &s;aid Reply) concern|ing
the finall prevailing of the Congregationall Government over
other Governments, by rea&s;on of that affinitie which it hath with
the Truth, and <HI>con&s;onancy with the word of God,</HI> this man will needs
interpret, as if they &s;pake it in re&s;pect of &s;ome fierce, fiery, turbulent
&amp; domineering &s;pirit, wherewith that way of Government &s;hould
be haunted or in&s;pired above all others; yea, his pen blu&s;heth not
to avouch (in effect) that them&s;elves confe&s;&s;e as much. The whole
pa&s;&s;age in the &s;aid <HI>Reply,</HI> that the Reader may the better judge, is
this; <HI>Indeed, by the beauty and perfect con&s;onancy of this Government to
the word of God, it may very rea&s;onably (yea and upon higher terms then
of rea&s;on,</HI> meaning I &s;uppo&s;e, of Faith) <HI>be thought that in time it can|not
but overthrow all &s;orts of Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Government, and &s;tand up it
&s;elf in their &s;tead.</HI> Tho&s;e words in this period, <HI>it cannot but over|throw
all &s;orts of Church-Government,</HI> they borrow from the pen of
their Adver&s;ary, (as appeares by their different character) in which
re&s;pect, for a man confederate with him in the &s;ame cau&s;e, to put a
&s;ini&s;ter or malevolent con&s;truction upon them, though u&s;ed by his
oppo&s;ites, is very unnaturall, and a breach of ingenuitie (I verily
beleeve) without pre&s;ident.</P>
<P>Whereas a few lines after,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 16.</NOTE> he vapours thus; <HI>Will any Parliament,
State, or Nation</HI> (think you) <HI>&s;uffer &s;uch a Government to take root a|mong
them, which will un-King, un-Parliament, un-Church, un-Na|tion
them altogether, and make each &s;everall Congregation an ab&s;olute
Monarchie, Church, &amp;c.</HI> A man would think he were calling for
the making of <HI>three Tabernacles, one for Mo&s;es, and one for Elias,</HI> and
a third for him&s;elf, <HI>not knowing</HI> indeed <HI>what he &s;peaketh.</HI> In ca&s;e a
few poore Chri&s;tians, per&s;ons truly fearing God, &s;hall be permit|ted
to wor&s;hip and &s;erve God in &s;uch a way, wherein they may in|joy
the peace of their con&s;ciences being tender, is &s;uch a permi&s;&s;ion
as this, of any &s;uch formidable a&s;pect, as to threaten, either the un-Kinging
<PB N="14" REF="12">
<HI>of a State, or the un-Parliamenting of a Parliament, or the
un-Nationing of a Nation, or the un-Churching of a Church?</HI> Or are
&s;uch per&s;ons more likely, or upon terms of any moe advantage (in
ca&s;e their inclinations &s;tood for it) to bring any of the&s;e doomes-dayes
upon a State or Nation, when they are permitted to wor&s;hip
and &s;erve God with peaceablene&s;&s;e of Con&s;cience, then they would
be, in ca&s;e they were compelled contrary to their Con&s;cience in
both? Surely the man to whom the <HI>&s;hadowes of the mountaines &s;ee|med
men,</HI> was very prudent and advi&s;ed in his feare, in re&s;pect of
him that is terriculamented with &s;uch apocryphall pretences of
feare, as the&s;e.</P>
<Q><L>Et &s;i nullus erit pulvis, tamen excute nullum:</L>
<L>Quaelibet officio cau&s;a &s;it apta tuo.</L></Q>
<P>Whereas he &s;aith,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 17.</NOTE> <HI>p.</HI> 9. that <HI>in Parliaments every particular man
hath his vote, though not in proper per&s;on, yet in their Deputies;</HI> and yet
<HI>p.</HI> 24. that <HI>there be a degree of vulgar people, who have no votes in Par|liamentary
elections,</HI> (and con&s;equently can have no Deputies) I
&s;hall claime no priviledge of determining, which is the <HI>error or mi|&s;take;</HI>
but freely give him leave to be his own carver herein: let ei|ther
number 9, or number 24. be condemned for either, that &s;o
the Law of Contradictories however may be &s;atisfied, and all my
demands are &s;atisfied in this particular.</P>
<P>Whereas <HI>p.</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 18.</NOTE> 9. he &s;o much rejoyceth over that &s;aying of his own,
<HI>That there is no example of gathering Independent Congregations, not of
Infidels, but of men already converted to, &amp; &s;etled in the Chri&s;tian Faith,
unle&s;&s;e derived from the private Conventicles,</HI> of <HI>Arrians, Novations,
Donati&s;ts, and other Heretiques, who yet were not Independent among
them&s;elves;</HI> as if it were <HI>a true</HI> &s;aying indeed, and <HI>onely bitter to In|dependents,
becau&s;e undeniable;</HI> the truth is, that the truth of it (were
it granted) will hardly equall the du&s;t in the ballance, to make the
cau&s;e he maintains weight. He that &s;aith, <HI>there is no example of ga|thering
Independent Congregations of men already converted to, and &s;et|led
in the Chri&s;tian Faith, unle&s;&s;e derived, &amp;c.</HI> mu&s;t needs &s;uppo&s;e and
grant, that there <HI>are examples of gathering &s;uch Congregations of men
not yet &s;etled in the Chri&s;tian Faith, which are not &s;o derived, &amp;c.</HI> ac|cording
to the tenor of that knowne maxime; <HI>Exceptio firm it Regu|lam
in non exceptis.</HI> He that &s;hould &s;ay thus, there is no example of
<PB N="15" REF="12">
any man truly &s;anctified, that ever finally apo&s;tatis'd from his
Chri&s;tian profe&s;&s;ion; implies and grants, that there are or may be
examples of per&s;ons never truly &s;anctified, who did &s;o apo&s;tati&s;e.
Now if there be <HI>examples of gathering Independent Congregations,</HI> of
men onely <HI>converted to the Chri&s;tian Faith,</HI> though not yet e&s;tabli|&s;hed
or <HI>&s;etled</HI> in it, other then tho&s;e <HI>that are derived from the Conven|ticles
of Heretiques;</HI> it is an argument of more &s;trength to counte|nance
the Congregationall Government, then any M^r <HI>Prynne</HI> hath
brought either to di&s;able that, or to &s;trengthen the other, in who&s;e
defence his pen &s;o much triumpheth. Suppo&s;e the Apo&s;tles did
build up or gather <HI>Independent</HI> Churches or <HI>Congregations</HI> onely of
per&s;ons newly <HI>converted to the Chri&s;tian Faith,</HI> and not of &s;uch as
had been <HI>&s;etled</HI> herein, yet 1. this amounts to an expre&s;&s;e patterne
of (and con&s;equently to a &s;ufficient warrant for) <HI>gathering Inde|pendent
Congregations</HI> &s;imply, or in &s;uch ca&s;es, wherein there is not
<HI>error in per&s;onis.</HI> Nay, 2. if the&s;e Apo&s;tolicall <HI>Independent Congrega|tions</HI>
did at their fir&s;t gathering or framing con&s;i&s;t onely of per&s;ons
lately <HI>Infidells,</HI> and as yet <HI>newly converted unto,</HI> and not <HI>&s;etled</HI> in
<HI>Chri&s;tianitie,</HI> yet afterwards, the &s;ame <HI>Congregations</HI> mu&s;t needs be
&s;uppo&s;ed to con&s;i&s;t of per&s;ons <HI>&s;etled</HI> in Chri&s;tianitie al&s;o, unle&s;&s;e we
will &s;uppo&s;e either that &s;uch as were <HI>converted</HI> by the Apo&s;tles to
the Faith, were never either by them, or any others <HI>&s;etled</HI> herein;
or els that upon &s;uch <HI>&s;etling</HI> of them, their <HI>Congregations</HI> were ei|ther
broken up and di&s;&s;olved, or els &s;pecifically chang'd in their
Government. Either of which &s;uppo&s;itions, though to others they
may be but as <HI>gnats,</HI> ea&s;ie to be <HI>&s;wallowed,</HI> yet to me they are <HI>Ca|mells,</HI>
I cannot get them downe. So that we &s;ee M^r <HI>Prynne</HI> hath
gotten nothing yet by his <HI>true undeniable pa&s;&s;age,</HI> (for which
notwith&s;tanding, he &s;carcely refraineth from &s;acrificing unto his
pen) but onely the <HI>giving</HI> of his adver&s;aries &s;uch an argument for
their cau&s;e, which he will never be able to take away from them.
And whereas in the latter part of this <HI>pa&s;&s;age,</HI> he would in&s;inuate,
(that which more plainly he affirms a few periods after) that tho&s;e
<HI>that gather Independent Congregations, derive their practi&s;e from the
examples, of Novatians, Donati&s;ts, and other Heretiques;</HI> whom yet
he denies to have been <HI>Independent amongst them&s;elves;</HI> it is as if he
&s;hould challenge women that are mode&s;t and cha&s;te, for <HI>deriving</HI>
their behaviour from the <HI>example</HI> of <HI>Jo&s;ephs</HI> Mi&s;tre&s;&s;e, or &s;ervants
<PB N="16" REF="13">
that were loyall and faithfull to their Ma&s;ters, for imitating the
practi&s;e of <HI>Judas I&s;cariot.</HI> Now &s;ince the <HI>pa&s;&s;age</HI> we wot of, whil&s;t
&s;uppo&s;ed <HI>true and undeniable,</HI> doth us more &s;ervice, then the evicti|on
of it for fal&s;e, would doe; I conceive not my &s;elf bound, either
in point of wi&s;dome or con&s;cience, to make a labour of the confu|tation
or conviction of it.</P>
<P>Whereas <HI>p.</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 19.</NOTE> 10. he demands, <HI>Why the Nationall Church of the Jews
under the Old Te&s;tament, &s;hould not be a patterne for us to imitate, as
well as their Nationall Covenant, Fa&s;ting, Sabbath-keeping;</HI> the que|&s;tion
(I conceive) carries an <HI>error</HI> (or at lea&s;t a <HI>mi&s;take</HI>) in the
ground and foundation of it. It &s;uppo&s;eth, that we <HI>covenant, fa&s;t,
keep Sabbath, &amp;c.</HI> onely in imitation of that <HI>Nation,</HI> who did the
like, and that we have no other ground for the&s;e practi&s;es, but the
<HI>nationalitie</HI> of the like ob&s;ervations among&s;t the <HI>Jews:</HI> whereas if
we had no better foundation for them then this, the nationall I|dolatries
of that people would be <HI>a patterne for us to imitate,</HI> as well
as the&s;e. If M^r <HI>Prynne</HI> will needs have the <HI>Nationall Church</HI> of the
<HI>Jews, a pattern for us to imitate,</HI> let him procure an Injunction from
Heaven for the imitation, and we are ready to joyne i&s;&s;ue with
him.</P>
<P>Whereas <HI>p.</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 20.</NOTE> 11. he &s;aith, that wicked <HI>members of a Church, when
excommunicated, after they are baptized, do not actually cea&s;e to be mem|bers,
&amp;c.</HI> Certainly it is a mi&s;take, one or more, if <HI>nihil &s;upra.</HI> For 1.
if &s;uch <HI>members when excommunicated, doe not actually cea&s;e to be mem|bers,</HI>
I would know whether then they cea&s;e to be &s;uch <HI>potentially</HI>
onely? If &s;o, they cea&s;ed thus to be <HI>members,</HI> as &s;oone as ever they
became <HI>members;</HI> they were then <HI>in potenti&acirc; remot&acirc;</HI> of cea&s;ing to be
<HI>members,</HI> as a man is of dying, as &s;oone as he is borne: or if we &s;peak
of <HI>potentia propinqua,</HI> they thus ceas'd to be <HI>members,</HI> upon the com|mitting
of tho&s;e &s;ins, which rendered them ju&s;tly obnoxious either
unto <HI>excommunication</HI> by the Church, or unto death by the Civill
Magi&s;trate, before either of the&s;e cen&s;ures or &s;entences pa&s;s'd upon
them. Therefore if they <HI>actually cea&s;e not to be members when excom|municated,</HI>
they <HI>cea&s;e not at all to be members;</HI> or at lea&s;t no other|wi&s;e,
then they cea&s;ed to be before &s;uch <HI>excommunication:</HI> and if ei|ther,
what doe we with this learned impertinencie, <HI>actually?</HI> But
2. if wicked <HI>members when excommunicated, doe not actually cea&s;e to be
members,</HI> I marvaile our Saviour &s;hould allow them no better quar|ter
<PB N="17" REF="13">
among&s;t their fellows, then to be look'd upon as <HI>Heathens and
Publicans?</HI> Mat. 18. 17. It &s;eems <HI>Heathens and Publicans may be
actuall members</HI> of M^r <HI>Prynnes</HI> Presbyterian Church; yea, though
they be by the highe&s;t hand the Church can lift up, ca&s;t out of it.
<HI>Ne ver&egrave;, ne me ad tales compellite coetus.</HI> And 3. and la&s;tly, what my|&s;terious
notion he &s;hould intend to let in, or what dangerous con|ceit
he &s;hould intend to &s;hut out by that emphaticall in&s;ertion, <HI>af|ter
they are baptized,</HI> is out of the hemi&s;phere of my apprehen&s;ion.
All that I can work out of it, is this; that there is or may be a two-fold
excommunication of the members in a Chri&s;tian Church;
one, before they are <HI>baptized,</HI> and another, <HI>after:</HI> and that by the
power of the former excommunication, they actually cea&s;e to be
members of their re&s;pective Churches; not &s;o by vertue of the lat|ter,
which (it &s;eems) is either more indulgent, or le&s;&s;e vigorous
and active. If this be M^r <HI>Prynnes</HI> Doctrine, it is mo&s;t properly and
peculiarly his; <HI>Libera per primos po&s;uit ve&s;tigia Princeps:</HI> if it be
not his, <HI>Sen&s;um &amp; &s;ententiam ve&s;tram, &ocirc; verba,</HI> after they are
baptized.</P>
<P>Whereas immediately after,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 21</NOTE> he argues thus, that &s;ince <HI>none &s;epa|rated
from the Churches of Ephe&s;us, Colo&s;&s;e, Smyrna,</HI> and <HI>though they
had &s;ome corruptions and evill members, therefore for us to &s;eparate from,
and un-church &s;uch Nationall or Parochiall Churches, which have &s;uch
members in them, is to un-church all Churches in the old and new Te&s;ta|ment,
&amp;c.</HI> He commits as many <HI>errors</HI> in arguing, as a man &s;hall
lightly meet with within &s;uch a compa&s;&s;e of words. For 1. he mu&s;t
be beholding either to an abundant weakne&s;&s;e or charitie (th'one)
in his Reader, to obtaine the grant of that which is the ba&s;e or ri&s;e
of this whole argumentation, <HI>viz.</HI> that <HI>none &s;eparated from the Chur|ches
of Ephe&s;us, Colo&s;&s;e, &amp;c.</HI> Negative proofes from the Scripture in
this ca&s;e are not concluding. But &s;uppo&s;e <HI>charitie</HI> &s;hould <HI>cover</HI> the
nakedne&s;&s;e or weakne&s;&s;e of this &s;uppo&s;ition, and pa&s;&s;e it as a truth,
yet 2. that &s;uch a &s;uppo&s;ition &s;hould argue, that <HI>to &s;eparate from Na|tionall
or Parochiall Churches which have evill members in them, is to
un-church all Churches in the old and new Te&s;tament,</HI> hath neither
head, nor foot, neither body nor &s;oule of rea&s;on in it. For 1. they
who <HI>&s;eparate from a Nationall Church,</HI> &s;uppo&s;ing no place or ground
for &s;uch a Church under the <HI>New Te&s;tament,</HI> have no ground or co|lour
but to judge that &s;uch a Church was lawfull, and truly &s;o cal|led
<PB N="18" REF="14">
under the old: as they who now &s;eparate them&s;elves from Cir|cumci&s;ion
and other Judaicall ob&s;ervations, as &s;uper&s;titious and
highly di&s;plea&s;ing unto God, doe in no rea&s;onable con&s;truction
hereby deny, but that &s;ometimes they were, or might have been, a
legitimate and acceptable wor&s;hip unto him. 2. Nor is there any &s;i|new
or &s;trength of rea&s;on at all in this po&s;ition; <HI>they who &s;eparate
from a Nationall or Parochiall Church, which have wicked members in
them, doe therefore &s;eparate, becau&s;e of the&s;e members,</HI> more then there
is in this; they who avoid the company of men with heads, doe
therefore avoid them, becau&s;e they have heads. There may be rea|&s;ons
more then enough, of &s;eparating either <HI>from a Nationall, or from
a Parochiall Church,</HI> be&s;ides the wickedne&s;&s;e of &s;ome of <HI>the members
of them:</HI> yea, I doe not conceive that ever any man &s;eparated from
either of the&s;e Churches, <HI>Nationall or Parochiall,</HI> &s;imply or &s;olely up|on
this ground: nor doe I judge it a &s;ufficient cau&s;e of &s;eparation
from either. M^r <HI>Prynne</HI> him&s;elf hath &s;eparated from the Church of
<HI>England</HI> as Epi&s;copall, and hath given the &s;trength of his a&s;&s;i&s;tance
to ca&s;t it into another frame or mould of Government, whereby it
will &s;pecifically differ from it &s;elf: and yet it is a plain ca&s;e, that he
hath not made this <HI>&s;eparation</HI> from it, becau&s;e of the wickedne&s;&s;e of
&s;ome of the members that were in it, whil&s;t Epi&s;copall; becau&s;e it
is like to have many of this character, in ca&s;e it &s;hall be torkened to
Presbyterall. Therefore a man <HI>may &s;eparate either from a Nationall
or Parochiall Church which have wicked members in it, without un|churching</HI>
(yea, or di&s;paraging) <HI>any Church at all, either in the Old
or New Te&s;tament.</HI></P>
<P>Whereas <HI>p.</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 22.</NOTE> 12. he collects thus; <HI>If Independents denie that there
were diver&s;e particular Congregations at Jeru&s;alem, then they mu&s;t prove,
that all the Apo&s;tles and Elders at Jeru&s;alem, were Pa&s;tors but of one and
the &s;elf-&s;ame Individuall Congregation;</HI> it is at lea&s;t a <HI>mi&s;take,</HI> though
pardonable in a <HI>Lawyer,</HI> yet not in a <HI>Logician.</HI> For 1. &s;uppo&s;e there
were <HI>diver&s;e particular Congregations at Jeru&s;alem,</HI> it doth not follow,
therefore all the Elders belonging to the&s;e &s;everall Congregations,
were <HI>Pa&s;tors</HI> of them, except we &s;tretch the &s;ignification of the
word, <HI>Pa&s;tor,</HI> beyond the Staple of the Scriptures, (as <HI>Presbyterians</HI>
I confe&s;&s;e, u&s;ually doe to help them&s;elves at a dead lift) and ex|tend
it unto all manner of Governours and Officers in the Church.
And con&s;equently, a pluralitie of <HI>Congregations at Jeru&s;alem</HI> may be
<PB N="19" REF="14">
denied; though no proofe or &s;uppo&s;ition be made, that <HI>all the A|po&s;tles
and Elders at Jeru&s;alem, were PASTORS to one Individuall Con|gregation.</HI>
2. A pluralitie of <HI>Congregations</HI> &s;uppo&s;ed, it doth not fol|low,
that all, or any of the <HI>Apo&s;tles,</HI> were <HI>Pa&s;tors</HI> unto any of them;
<HI>Pa&s;tors and Apo&s;tles</HI> being contra-di&s;tingui&s;hed, <HI>Eph. 4. 11. He there|fore
gave &s;ome Apo&s;tles, &s;ome Prophets, &s;ome Evangeli&s;ts, &s;ome Pa&s;tors and
Teachers.</HI> The Apo&s;tles had a Commi&s;&s;ion to preach unto any par|ticular
Church, or Churches, without being made Pa&s;tors unto
them: yea, him&s;elf afterwards in this very page confe&s;&s;eth, that <HI>the
Apo&s;tles were not immediate Mini&s;ters or Pa&s;tors to particular Churches.</HI>
Therefore M^r <HI>Prynnes</HI> collection (however) faulters. 3. (And la&s;tly)
The pre&s;ence or continuance of &s;o many of the Apo&s;tles at <HI>Jeru&s;a|lem</HI>
for a time (for that <HI>all</HI> the Apo&s;tles &s;hould be pre&s;ent at the
meeting, <HI>Act.</HI> 15. is onely Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> Go&s;pel) no wayes implies,
that their &s;tay there was &s;o much either for the Government or
edification of the particular Church of <HI>Jeru&s;alem,</HI> whether con&s;i&s;t|ing
of one or more Congregations, as for the generall accommo|dation
of the Go&s;pel, and of the affaires of all particular Churches
el&s;ewhere; this Citie being their Head-quarter, or Rendevouz, from
whence upon occa&s;ion they might, and did the more commodiou&s;|ly
i&s;&s;ue forth by parties into other parts, upon their &s;pirituall de|&s;igns,
as God called them, or gave opportunitie. So that there is
no nece&s;&s;itie at all lying upon them, who conceive that there was
onely one <HI>Congregation at Jeru&s;alem,</HI> to prove, that <HI>all the Apo&s;tles
and Elders there were Pa&s;tors of one and the &s;elf-&s;ame individuall Con|gregation.</HI>
He tells me <HI>p.</HI> 24. of my <HI>Independent fabrique fa&s;tened toge|ther
with Independent Grochets:</HI> but I can a&s;&s;ure him, that if his
<HI>Presbyterian fabrique</HI> be not <HI>fa&s;tened together</HI> and &s;upported by better
<HI>Crochets</HI> and <HI>Crutches,</HI> whether dependent, or <HI>independent,</HI> then are
to be found in the words either of his <HI>twelve con&s;iderable &s;erious
Que&s;tions,</HI> or of his <HI>Independencie examined, or of this his Full Reply,</HI>
it will drop one piece from another, and the honour of it &s;oone lie
in the du&s;t. The inference which he would make by way of que|&s;tion,
in the words immediately following tho&s;e already in&s;i&s;ted
upon, complaines of the &s;ame weakne&s;&s;e with the former. <HI>And then</HI>
(&s;aith he) <HI>what becomes of their independent Churches, which have no
Apo&s;tle, and onely one Pa&s;tor, &amp;c.</HI> I pre&s;ume his Presbyterian Chur|ches
want <HI>Apo&s;tles,</HI> as much as the <HI>Independent:</HI> and if the&s;e be pec|cant
<PB N="20" REF="15">
through &s;uch a defect, I hope tho&s;e will not be ju&s;tified. But
how effeminate and loo&s;e a con&s;equence is this: The Church at <HI>Je|ru&s;alem</HI>
had Apo&s;tles and Elders to be the Pa&s;tors of it: therefore
that Church that hath not both Apo&s;tles and Elders to be the Pa|&s;tors
of it, is or can be no true Church; as if Pa&s;tors made of Apo|&s;tles
(in ca&s;e there had been &s;uch) had been of the e&s;&s;ence of the
Church at <HI>Jeru&s;alem.</HI> If either Mr. <HI>Prynne,</HI> or any other, &s;hall &s;hew
me any one &s;uch <HI>Independent crochet</HI> as this and twenty more in this
Reply, in any of my writings, I &s;hall freely confe&s;&s;e <HI>a Judgement</HI>
again&s;t them to the fire.</P>
<P>Whereas (<HI>p.</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 23.</NOTE> 12.) he pretends to find, <HI>an impregnable evidence of
the lawfulne&s;&s;e of Nationall Synods, Parliaments, in all Chri&s;tian King|domes,
and of an Authoritie given them to determine all Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall
Controver&s;ies, &s;ettle, order all Church-affaires, &amp;c. in the frequent Gene|rall
Nationall A&s;&s;emblies, Synods&mdash;among the I&s;raelites, pre&s;cribed,
appointed by God, and no waies contradicted, revoked under the Go&s;pel,
inve&s;ted with &s;uch Authoritie, &amp;c.</HI> he is (que&s;tionle&s;&s;e) <HI>mi&s;taken</HI> over
and over. For 1. the A&s;&s;embly &s;poken of 1 <HI>Chron.</HI> 13. 1. to the 14.
(the prime place produced by him to prove his <HI>Generall Nationall
A&s;&s;emblies, Synods, amongst the I&s;raelites, pre&s;cribed, appointed by God</HI>)
is neither there, nor any where el&s;e in Scripture &s;aid to have been
<HI>pre&s;cribed, appointed by God.</HI> Nor 2. did this A&s;&s;embly, con&s;i&s;ting (the
King him&s;elf excepted) of <HI>the Captaines of thou&s;ands, and of hundreds,
of every Leader,</HI> (a very &s;trange <HI>Synod</HI> to <HI>determine all Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall
Controver&s;ies</HI>) either claime or exerci&s;e any authoritie in this kind;
but only re&s;olved upon the &s;ending to, and gathering together the
Prie&s;ts and Levites, with the generalitie of the people of the Land
from all parts, as not thinking it meet to remove the Ark without
their pre&s;ence and con&s;ent. Nor 3. were the members of this <HI>A&s;&s;em|bly,
Synod,</HI> cho&s;en by the re&s;pective Synagogicall Congregations in
the Land; and con&s;equently no &s;uch <HI>impregnable evidence of the law|fulne&s;&s;e
of Nationall A&s;&s;emblies, Synods,</HI> now; though for my part I
never que&s;tioned the lawfulne&s;s of &s;uch A&s;&s;emblies, Synods, as the&s;e,
but onely the lawfulne&s;&s;e of &s;ome power, which &s;ome of the&s;e claim
and exerci&s;e. 4. Nor did this, nor any other <HI>Generall Nationall A&s;|&s;embly,
Synod,</HI> any where to be found in Scripture, ever enact any
thing concerning the wor&s;hip and &s;ervice of God, under mulcts and
penalties, but what God him&s;elf had plainly determined and ad|judged
<PB N="21" REF="15">
to be done, in his Law. Nor was this done by any &s;elect
<HI>A&s;&s;embly, Synod,</HI> con&s;i&s;ting onely of Prie&s;ts and Levites, or of per|&s;ons
voted into places of Authoritie by the generalitie of the peo|ple
of the Land, but by the generality of the people them&s;elves met
together, with an uniforme, full and free con&s;ent and approbation
on all hands. It is &s;aid, 2 <HI>Chron.</HI> 15. 9, 10. 12, 13, &amp;c. (another
Scripture cited by Mr. <HI>Prynne,</HI> to prove the afore&s;aid gain-&s;aid con|clu&s;ion)
that <HI>all Judah and Benjamin, and the &s;trangers with them
out of Ephraim, and Mana&s;&s;eh, and out of Simeon, gathered them&s;elves
together at Jeru&s;alem, And entered into a Covenant to &s;eek the Lord God
of their Fathers, with all their heart, and with all their &s;oule, That
who&s;oever would not &s;eek the Lord God of I&s;rael, &s;hould be put to death,
whether &s;mall or great, &mdash;And all I&s;rael rejoyced at the Oath, &amp;c.</HI>
Here is no compelling of any man by any <HI>Authoritative Synod</HI> of
Prie&s;ts and Levites, nor by any a&s;&s;embly of the Nobles or per&s;ons
delegated by the people, to &s;ubmit-unto &s;uch a Law, or &s;uch a Co|venant,
as is mentioned; but the generalitie of the people in their
proper per&s;ons, did voluntarily and freely with one con&s;ent enter
into this a&s;&s;ociation or agreement between them&s;elves, and confir|med
it by an Oath. 5. (And la&s;tly) that which was here generally
agreed upon, and &s;olemnly &s;worne by the people under the penal|tie
of death, <HI>viz. The &s;eeking of the Lord God of their Fathers, &amp;c.</HI> was
not any matter <HI>of doubtfull di&s;putation,</HI> any determination of the
&s;en&s;e and meaning of any conttover&s;all pa&s;&s;age of Scripture, was not
any thing en&s;naring, any thing de&s;tructive to the peace and com|fort
of tho&s;e that were tender and con&s;cientious among&s;t them:
no: it was nothing but what in expre&s;ne&s;s and plainne&s;s of words,
was required of them by God him&s;elf in their written Law<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Exod. 23. 25. Deut. 6. 12, 13. Deut. 10. 12. &amp; 11. 13. &amp; 13. 14. &amp; 30. 16. Joih. 22. 5. &amp; 24. 14. 23.</NOTE> (which
they had all owned and voluntarily &s;ubjected them&s;elves unto for|merly
<NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">Exod. 19. 8. &amp; 24 3. Deut. 5. 27. &amp; 26. 17. Jo&s;h. 24. 16, 21, 22, 24.</NOTE>.) The contrary to it, <HI>viz.</HI> Idolatry, being as expre&s;ly and
plainly forbidden in the &s;ame Law, and that ten times over<NOTE N="c" PLACE="marg">Exod. 20. 23. &amp; 23. 24, 32, 33 Deut. 5. 7, 8, 9, &amp; 6. 14. &amp; 7. 5. 16. &amp; 8. 19. &amp; 12. 30. &amp; 13. 2, 3. &amp; 29. 17, 18.</NOTE>. Yea,
it was the effect of the fir&s;t &amp; greate&s;t commandement of this Law;
Some lively &s;parkes and impre&s;&s;ions whereof remaine to this day in
the fle&s;hly tables of mens hearts, anciently written by the finger of
God, without the mediation of Scripture in&s;truction. Thus you
&s;ee Mr. <HI>Prynnes impregnable evidence for the lawfulne&s;&s;e of an Authori|tie
in Nationall Synods, Parliaments, A&s;&s;emblies, for determining all
Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Controver&s;ies, &amp;c.</HI> plainly non-&s;uited, and defaced.
<PB N="22" REF="16">
&mdash;<HI>Irus &amp; e&s;t &s;ubito, qui modo Croe&s;us erat.</HI> No &s;uch authority as
that wherein he &s;eekes to infeoffe <HI>Generall Nationall A&s;&s;emblies, Sy|nods,
in determining Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall controver&s;ies, &amp;c.</HI> will ever be evi|denced
from any <HI>A&s;&s;embly, Synod,</HI> heard of in the Scriptures.</P>
<P>Whereas (page 13.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 24.</NOTE>) from the words of his Antagoni&s;t there ex|pre&s;&s;ed,
he drawes this conclu&s;ion, <HI>Therefore the Infant-Church in the
Apo&s;tles dayes was not &s;o compleat, perfect in all points, as the multiplied
or grown Churches afterwards,</HI> either he amphibologizeth, or el&s;e his
conclu&s;ion is an ab&s;olute <HI>mi&s;take</HI> in reference to his purpo&s;e. For
though the <HI>Infant-church in the Apo&s;tles dayes,</HI> that is, Chri&s;tian
Churches in their fir&s;t bud and &s;pring, in and about the beginning
of the <HI>Apo&s;tles dayes,</HI> and their fir&s;t going forth into the world to
preach the Go&s;pell, <HI>were not &s;o compleat, perfect in all points,</HI> as either
the &s;ame, or other Churches were afterwards, viz. towards the
<HI>later</HI> dayes of the Apo&s;tles in the world, when they had &s;upplied
and added all things nece&s;&s;ary, and any wayes appertaining to the
beauty and well-being of the&s;e Churches in point of Government
and Di&s;cipline; yet it follows not from hence, that either the&s;e, or
any other &s;ucceeding Churches after the Apo&s;tles dayes, how <HI>mul|tiplied
or grown</HI> &s;oever, ever <HI>grew</HI> to more beauty or perfection in
point of government, then the&s;e had attained unto, before the A|po&s;tles
were taken away by death from them. This <HI>conclu&s;ion</HI> in|deed,
if Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> could have made lawfull prize of it, from the
premi&s;es of his adver&s;ary, would have &s;miled a little upon his
cau&s;e: but for the other, it holds no corre&s;pondencie at all with it,
but rather frowns upon it. For if the Apo&s;tles left the Churches of
Chri&s;t in the perfection of beauty for matter of government, it mu&s;t
needs follow, that any variation from that forme of government
wherein they left them, is rather matter of deformity then <HI>perfe|ction.</HI></P>
<P>Whereas (in the &s;ame page) he affirmes with an high hand,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 25.</NOTE> <HI>that
if the Parliament and Synod &s;hall by publicke con&s;ent e&s;tabli&s;h a Presbyte|riall
Church-government, as mo&s;t con&s;onant to Gods word, &mdash;Inde|pendents
and all others are bound in con&s;cience to &s;ubmit unto it, under
pain of ob&s;tinacie, &s;ingularity,</HI> &amp;c. <HI>in ca&s;e they cannot really, by direct
texts, and precepts, prove it diametrically contrary to the Scripture.</HI> &mdash;I
conceive it to be a <HI>jeofaile</HI> in Theologie, a <HI>mi&s;take</HI> in &s;tead of a
truth. For fir&s;t, a man is not bound in con&s;cience to doe any thing
<PB N="23" REF="16">
that is commanded, though both the authority whereby it is com|manded,
yea and the thing it &s;elfe which is commanded, be never &s;o
lawfull, whil&s;t his judgement and con&s;cience remain con&s;iderably
doubtfull, and un&s;atisfied touching the lawfulne&s;&s;e of it, e&s;pecially
whil&s;t they vehemently incline to thinke and judge the contrary;
lea&s;t of all, whil&s;t the contrary is the ab&s;olute and unque&s;tioned
deci&s;ion of both; yea, though the grounds of &s;uch a doubt or de|termination
bee never &s;o in&s;ufficient and weake. The Scripture is
cleare in this, <HI>Let every man be fully per&s;waded</HI> (or a&s;&s;ured) <HI>in his own
mind,</HI> or under&s;tanding, (viz. concerning the lawfulnes of what he
doth) &amp; not build upon, or content him&s;elf with the mind and un|der&s;tanding
of others, <HI>Rom.</HI> 14. 5. Again, <HI>He that doubteth, is condem|ned
if he eat, becau&s;e he eateth not of faith;</HI> i. not out of a ful per&s;wa&s;ion
or knowledge in him&s;elfe of the lawfulnes of his eating in &s;uch a
kind: <HI>For what&s;oever is not of Faith</HI> [i. is acted or done, and not
out of &s;uch a knowledge] <HI>is &s;inne,</HI> Rom. 14. 23. Now certaine it is,
that no man is <HI>bound in con&s;cience, under pain of ob&s;tinacie, &s;ingulari|ty,
&amp;c.</HI> to &s;inne, or bring <HI>damnation</HI> upon him&s;elfe. The truth is,
that to &s;cruple or que&s;tion the lawfulnes of any thing that is com|manded
by the high hand of Authority to be done, is &s;omwhat <HI>&s;in|gular</HI>
in the world; and &s;o de&s;erves not the <HI>pain,</HI> but the <HI>honour</HI> of
<HI>&s;ingularity:</HI> But that &s;uch a behaviour or deportment as this, &s;hould
&s;uffer the <HI>pain of ob&s;tinacy,</HI> is as contrary to rea&s;on, as that the Sunne
&s;hould be arre&s;ted for being a nuy&s;ance unto the world with his
darknes. 2^ly, if by <HI>proving the contrariety</HI> of what he &s;peaks of, <HI>unto
the Scriptures, by direct texts and precepts,</HI> he means, the producing of
&s;uch <HI>texts</HI> of Scripture wherin this <HI>contrariety</HI> is <GAP DESC="foreign"> <HI>in terminis,</HI> or
<HI>in tofidem verbis</HI> expre&s;&s;ed, he binds a heavier burthen on the &s;houl|ders
of others, then he is willing him&s;elf to touch w^t^h the lea&s;t of his
fingers, in all he hath publickly di&s;cour&s;ed hitherto upon this &s;ub|ject;
yea, heavier then either God, or the common light of rea&s;on
in men, will &s;uffer to be bound upon them in this ca&s;e. The Saddu|cees
were bound to beleeve the re&s;urrection of the dead by vertue
of this text, <HI>I am the God of Abraham, and the God of I&s;aac, and the
God of Jacob,</HI> Exod. 3. 6. wherein notwith&s;tanding there is no di|rect
or expre&s;&s;e mention made of this re&s;urrection, as appears <HI>Mat.</HI>
22. 31, 32. In like manner the <HI>Corinthians</HI> were bound to think it a
matter of duty to mini&s;ter in their <HI>carnall things,</HI> unto tho&s;e that
<PB N="24" REF="17">
<HI>&s;owed &s;pirituall things unto them,</HI> by vertue &amp; warrant of this Scrip|ture,
<HI>Thou &s;halt not muzzle the mouth of the Ox that tradeth out the
Corn, Deu.</HI> 25. 4. (as appears 1 <HI>Cor.</HI> 9. 8, 9.) &amp; yet evident it is, that the
<HI>direct</HI> letter of &s;uch a duty is not here to be found. What propo&s;ition
&s;oever, &s;hall, or may be found to be a legitimate and native con&s;e|quence
or deduction from any text in Scripture being found, ought
to be of the &s;ame &s;acred con&s;ideration unto us, and according to
the tenor of it, of the &s;ame obligation upon us, with that Scrip|ture-ground
from whence it i&s;&s;ueth and is derived. <HI>For if the fir&s;t
fruits bee holy, &s;o is the whole lump: and if the root bee holy, &s;o are the
branches, Rom.</HI> 11. 16. Therefore that Church-government which
&s;hall be overthrowne by a <HI>direct</HI> and pregnant con&s;equence from a
<HI>text,</HI> is as &s;ufficiently overthrowne, as if the defeat had been given
by the mo&s;t <HI>direct</HI> and expre&s;&s;e letter of &s;uch a <HI>text.</HI></P>
<P>Whereas (page 14.)<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 26.</NOTE> hee &s;uperaddes this notion (in a pa&s;&s;age
much of the &s;ame import with the la&s;t brought under examina|tion)
that <HI>though the e&s;tabli&s;hment of a government by the Parliament
and A&s;&s;embly, doth not bind all Independents to be &s;imply of their opini|on,
yet it binds them in point of practice and obedience outwardly there|to,
and not to &s;eparate under pain of arrogancie, faction, &s;chi&s;me, unle&s;&s;e
they can clearly manife&s;t it to be ab&s;olutely unlawfull and repagnant to
the Scriptures.</HI> I conceive he addes unto his <HI>mi&s;takes,</HI> if not unto his
<HI>errors.</HI> For fir&s;t, whereas he here &s;uppo&s;eth, that Independenters
mu&s;t <HI>&s;eparate</HI> from the government that &s;hall bee e&s;tabli&s;hed by
Parliament and A&s;&s;embly, (and &s;o mu&s;t undergoe the <HI>pains</HI> and
penalties impo&s;ed upon that crime by the law of his pen) in ca&s;e
they doe not, or &s;hall not &s;ubmit unto it, hee &s;hould have done
well to con&s;ider, that <HI>&s;eparation</HI> &s;till pre&s;uppo&s;eth former union.
<HI>Tho&s;e whom God hath joyned together, let not man &s;eparate,</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Mat. 19. 6.</NOTE> <HI>or put a|&s;under.</HI>
That woman cannot bee divorced, nor yet for&s;ake her
husband, which never was married; no more can Independents
be &s;aid (unle&s;&s;e by &s;aying that which had been better un&s;aid) to
<HI>&s;eparate</HI> from that government unto which they never were yet u|nited.
Therefore let Mr. <HI>Prynne,</HI> and all other of the Presbyterian
judgement, know a&s;&s;uredly, that they will never gain any thing
but the <HI>wages of unrighteou&s;ne&s;&s;e</HI> by charging their brethren of the
Congregationall way, either with <HI>&s;eparation</HI> or <HI>&s;chi&s;me.</HI></P>
<P>Secondly, to affirme, that <HI>a man though he be not of their opinion,
<PB N="25" REF="17">
who &s;hall e&s;tabli&s;h a Government</HI> (he mu&s;t meane, touching the law|fulne&s;&s;e
of the Government &s;o e&s;tabli&s;hed, or el&s;e it is nothing to
the purpo&s;e) <HI>is yet bound in point of outward practi&s;e and obedience to
&s;ubmit thereunto,</HI> is a note beyond that <HI>Elah</HI> of the Famili&s;ts, where|in
they teach, that if a man &s;hall keep his heart and mind &s;ound
and uncorrupted within, he may for his &s;afety or accommodation
otherwi&s;e, comply outwardly with any Idolatrous wor&s;hips or &s;u|per&s;titions,
or other unlawfull practi&s;es what&s;oever. This gene|ration
it &s;elf, doth not hold &s;uch an outward compliance as this,
&s;imply nece&s;&s;ary, in point of dutie or con&s;cience, but onely lawfull
in point of Chri&s;tian libertie. Therefore M^r. <HI>Prynne</HI> wades deeper
into the&s;e polluted waters, then they.</P>
<P>3. And (la&s;tly) whereas he thinks &s;ufficiently to <HI>provi&s;o</HI> his for|mer
a&s;&s;ertion, by adding, <HI>unle&s;&s;e they can cleerly manife&s;t it to be ab|&s;olutely
unlawfull and repugnant to the Scriptures;</HI> the truth is, that
here is neither &s;hield nor buckler that can &s;aye it harmle&s;&s;e. For
1. it is not the truth or &s;oundne&s;&s;e of a mans judgement &s;tanding
in oppo&s;ition to the &s;uppo&s;ed or a&s;&s;erted lawfulne&s;&s;e of a thing,
that makes the practi&s;e of the thing, during the pre&s;ent &s;tate of his
judgement, unlawfull to him; but the very tenor or &s;tate of his
judgement in re&s;pect of &s;uch oppo&s;ition, whether this &s;tate of it be
good or bad, &s;ound or un&s;ound. Much le&s;&s;e 2. is it an abilitie in
men to <HI>manife&s;t</HI> unto others the truth or &s;oundne&s;&s;e of their judge|ments,
when they &s;tand bent again&s;t a practi&s;e that is injoyned as
lawfull, that onely can excu&s;e them from &s;ubjection. Mens acti|ons
are not to be regulated either by a Rhetoricall or Logicall fa|cultie
of expre&s;&s;ing them&s;elves or their judgements to the convicti|on
and &s;atisfaction of others; but by tho&s;e impre&s;&s;ions of righte|ou&s;ne&s;&s;e
and equitie that are in and upon their judgements, whe|ther
they be able to repre&s;ent or commend them for &s;uch unto o|thers,
or no.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Dan. 3.</NOTE> <HI>Shadrach, Me&s;hach,</HI> and <HI>Abednego,</HI> were not able <HI>cleer|ly
to manife&s;t</HI> it unto <HI>Nabuchadnezzar</HI> and his <HI>Nobles,</HI> that it was <HI>ab|&s;olutely
unlawfull</HI> for them to fall downe and wor&s;hip the golden
Image which he had &s;et up: yet was it not therefore unlawfull for
them to refu&s;e &s;ubjection unto the Kings commandement in that
behalf. If the lawfulne&s;&s;e of our refu&s;ing our Superiours in their in|junctions
and commands, be &s;u&s;pended upon our abilitie to con|vince
them of the unlawfulne&s;&s;e of the&s;e commands, there will not
<PB N="26" REF="18">
be much danger in it to bid the Papi&s;ts <HI>God &s;peed,</HI> when they bring
the Doctrine of <HI>blind obedience</HI> unto us. Rare are tho&s;e &s;uperiours,
that care to impo&s;e any thing by way of command, of the unlaw|fulne&s;&s;e
whereof they can be willing to be convinced, e&s;pecially by
the commanded: and where there is no di&s;po&s;ition, no willingne&s;&s;e
towards a conviction, arguments and demon&s;trations are (for the
mo&s;t part) but <HI>as &s;ounding bra&s;&s;e,</HI> and <HI>tinkling cymballs. Leviathan</HI>
in regard of the &s;trength and toughne&s;&s;e of his skin and &s;cales,
<HI>e&s;teemeth iron as &s;traw, and bra&s;&s;e as rotten wood: The arrow cannot
make him flee: the &s;tones of the &s;ling are turned with him into &s;tubble,</HI>
Job 41. 27, 28.</P>
<P>Whereas (<HI>p.</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 27.</NOTE> 14.) he &s;aith, that <HI>if the Parliament &s;hould &s;ettle In|dependencie,
I am certain you would then write and preach for univer&s;all
obedience to it, without di&s;pute;</HI> doubtle&s;&s;e this certaintie of his is but
a confident mi&s;take; For 1. it is no wayes con&s;i&s;tent with the prin|ciples
of that Government he &s;peaks of, to urge or pre&s;&s;e <HI>univer&s;all
obedience</HI> to it; becau&s;e it profe&s;&s;eth an ab&s;olute incapacitie in farre
the greate&s;t part of men (for the pre&s;ent) for it; nor doth it ex|pect
that the <HI>univer&s;alitie</HI> of men will ever become capable of it.
This Government pleadeth for no &s;ubjection to it, but from tho&s;e
that are Saints, at lea&s;t in view, &s;uch I mean, who <HI>doe</HI> not in <HI>works</HI>
or <HI>deeds denie that Faith,</HI> which in <HI>words they profe&s;&s;e.</HI> Such as the&s;e
the Scripture pronounceth to be <HI>wor&s;e then Infidells:</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">1 Tim. 5. 8.</NOTE> and therefore
whil&s;t &s;uch, they are not capable of part &amp; fellow&s;hip in that Go|vernment,
which is appropriate to the Kingdome, or Churches of
Chri&s;t. Neverthele&s;&s;e, it earne&s;tly prayeth for, and by every other
good way and means is ready to endevour the conver&s;ion of the&s;e
unto God: onely it judgeth not meet to bring them into the Tem|ple,
untill they be purified.</P>
<P>Nor 2. doth this Government pre&s;&s;e for &s;ubjection unto it from
the Saints them&s;elves, <HI>without di&s;pute:</HI> it cares for no Pro&s;elytes,
but for tho&s;e that are fir&s;t in&s;tructed, and made di&s;ciples. It di&s;|daignes
&s;o far to undervalue its beautie and loveline&s;&s;e, as to ravi&s;h
or force the con&s;cience of any man.</P>
<P>Whereas (<HI>p.</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 28.</NOTE> 16.) he makes it <HI>an apparent &s;chi&s;me, &s;eparation from
all other Churches, for Independent Churches to appeale onely to Churches
of their own partie;</HI> I conceive it is a repetition of a former <HI>mi&s;take,</HI>
with the augmentation of a new. For 1. there is no place for the
<PB N="27" REF="18">
crimes of <HI>&s;chi&s;me</HI> or <HI>&s;eparation,</HI> but where a preceding union hath
prepared it. Well may it be a crime or fault of another nature or
kind in Congregationall Churches, to limit them&s;elves in point of
appeale, unto Churches onely of their own con&s;titution; but for
the crimes of <HI>&s;chi&s;me and &s;eparation</HI> here charged upon it, it is un|que&s;tionably
innocent. And M^r <HI>Prynnes</HI> Printer (I pre&s;ume rather
ca&s;ually, then con&s;ultedly) by making it, not an <HI>apparant,</HI> but an
<HI>apparent</HI> Schi&s;me, hath much ea&s;ed the burthen of the charge; and
repre&s;ents the action more like unto it &s;elfe in point of truth, then
the Author him&s;elf intended; for the truth is, there is no realitie or
truth, but onely an appearance or &s;hew (at mo&s;t) of a <HI>&s;chi&s;me</HI> or
<HI>&s;eparation</HI> in it.</P>
<P>2. It is but a <HI>mi&s;taken</HI> &s;uppo&s;ition in him, to &s;uppo&s;e, that in ca&s;e
an aggrieved partie in an <HI>Independent Church,</HI> &s;hall chu&s;e rather to
appeale to a Church (one, or more) of a differing Government
and con&s;titution from their own, that this Church will refu&s;e to
be accountable unto the Church or Churches &s;o appealed unto,
becau&s;e they are not of the &s;ame con&s;titution with it &s;elf. I beleeve
there is no Congregationall Church any where, but if it be law|fully
and in a Chri&s;tian manner required or called upon to do it,
will be ready and willing to render an account of any of her acti|ons
or proceedings, not onely to a <HI>Presbyterian Church,</HI> but even to
the meane&s;t member of it. But</P>
<P>3. Why he &s;hould call a voluntary <HI>account</HI> given by a Church,
<HI>a meere mockery in &s;tead of an account,</HI> unle&s;&s;e the Church accounted
unto, &s;hould have power <HI>to inforce it to correct its errors or inju&s;tice,</HI>
my eyes can &s;ee no rea&s;on. For in ca&s;e the Church which willing|ly
accounteth for her actions unto another, &s;hall, upon the di&s;co|very
and &s;ight of any <HI>error</HI> or <HI>inju&s;tice</HI> in the&s;e her actions, as wil|lingly
retract and reforme them (which, with the help and a&s;&s;i|&s;tance
of a very little charitie, may ordinarily, if not univer&s;ally,
be pre&s;um'd of Saints) why &s;hall not &s;uch a reformation as this,
being voluntary and free, be every whit as commendable and reall,
as a reformation compelled or inforced would be? And con&s;e|quently,
why &s;hould not an <HI>arbitrary</HI> or voluntary <HI>account,</HI> be as
Chri&s;tian, as &s;atisfactory, as reall, as that which is purcha&s;ed by
an iron rod? Or doth any Church or a&s;&s;ociation of Churches,
obtaine a quicker or richer &s;pirit of di&s;cerning, or a more accom|pli&s;hed
<PB N="28" REF="19">
facultie of convincing Churches that are delinquent, of
their <HI>errors</HI> or <HI>inju&s;tice,</HI> by being armed with a compul&s;ive power
over them, then they were or would be capable of, if their autho|ritie
were con&s;ultative and per&s;wa&s;ive onely? Or hath a Church
called to an account for <HI>error</HI> or <HI>inju&s;tice,</HI> any more rea&s;on to ac|knowledge
either for &s;uch, becau&s;e they are adjudged &s;uch unto
her, by Churches (one or more) having a coactive power over
her, then if this &s;entence were pa&s;&s;ed by Churches not daring to
claime, owne, or exerci&s;e any &s;uch power?</P>
<P>4. And la&s;tly, I would faine know, why it &s;hould be more
<HI>&s;chi&s;me</HI> or <HI>&s;eparation,</HI> for an <HI>Independent Church to appeale onely unto
Churches of their owne partie,</HI> and not unto the <HI>Presbyterian,</HI> then it
is for <HI>Presbyterian Churches,</HI> to appeale onely to Churches of their
partie, and not unto the <HI>Independent;</HI> con&s;idering, that Churches
of this con&s;titution, are every whit as much (at lea&s;t) Churches
of Chri&s;t, as tho&s;e of the other. But the truth is, it being lawfull
and free (as him&s;elf here &s;uppo&s;eth) for Churches to appeale to
Churches, as well of the one con&s;titution, as of the other, that it
is &s;omewhat an uncouth and &s;trange conceit, to make <HI>&s;chi&s;me</HI> or
<HI>&s;eparation</HI> of appealing either unto the one, or the other.</P>
<P>Whereas (<HI>p.</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 29.</NOTE> 17.) he gives us leave <HI>to differ in judgement from the
decrees of Synods and Parliaments, when erroneous and contrariant to
the expre&s;&s;e Word, not to our owne fancies, inferences, or opinions;</HI>
doubtle&s;&s;e, he <HI>mi&s;takes,</HI> taking that away from us with the one
hand, which he gives us with the other; which, I pre&s;ume was
not his intention. For if we <HI>may</HI> not <HI>differ in judgement</HI> from Syno|dicall
decrees, <HI>when they are contrariant to our opinions,</HI> wee may
not &s;o <HI>differ</HI> from them at any time. Or <HI>may we,</HI> or can we <HI>dif|fer
in judgement</HI> from that, which is not <HI>contrary to our opinion?</HI>
Though M^r <HI>Prynne differs in judgement</HI> from tho&s;e that hold forth
the <HI>Congregationall way,</HI> yet (it &s;eems) he may be of the &s;ame <HI>opini|on</HI>
with them concerning that way.</P>
<P>Whereas (in the &s;ame page) he demands of us,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 30.</NOTE> <HI>If we deem not
our &s;elves more holy then our brethren, or be not &s;weld up with &s;pirituall
pride, why refu&s;e we to clo&s;e with them now, as we have done heretofore?</HI>
The ground of the demand (que&s;tionle&s;&s;e) is a <HI>mi&s;take,</HI> and &s;hould
not &s;uffer <HI>ultr&acirc; condignum,</HI> if it were called an <HI>error.</HI> There may be
many rea&s;ons why one man <HI>clo&s;eth</HI> not with another in point of
<PB N="29" REF="19">
<HI>judgement</HI> (and con&s;equently why not in practice al&s;o?) be&s;ides <HI>dee|ming
him&s;elfe more holy then his brother,</HI> from whom hee di&s;&s;enteth,
or being <HI>&s;weld up with &s;pirituall pride.</HI> I doe not conceive that the
Apo&s;tle <HI>Paul deemed him&s;elfe more holy</HI> then <HI>Peter,</HI> much le&s;&s;e that
he was <HI>&s;weld up with &s;pirituall pride,</HI> when hee not onely di&s;&s;ented
from him touching the ju&s;tifiablene&s;&s;e of that cour&s;e and practice
wherein <HI>Peter</HI> now walked, but (as the text &s;aith<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Gal. 2. 11.</NOTE>) with&s;tood
him to his face; but that the true ground of &s;uch both di&s;&s;ent and
re&s;i&s;tance, was partly the &s;tanding of <HI>Pauls</HI> judgement in oppo&s;iti|on
unto, and di&s;like of what <HI>Peter</HI> did; partly the de&s;ire hee had
of doing his fellow Apo&s;tle the Chri&s;tian kindne&s;&s;e of making
&s;treight that which was crooked in his way; partly al&s;o (if not
principally) his zeal and faithfulne&s;&s;e to his Lord and Ma&s;ter Je|&s;us
Chri&s;t, and his Go&s;pel, and his Saints, that none of the&s;e might
&s;uffer lo&s;&s;e or di&s;advantage in the world by the mi&s;pri&s;ions, or
mi&s;carriages of any man, how great or holy &s;oever, as farre as lay
in his power to prevent it. Nor would it have been any di&s;parage|ment
or di&s;honour at all to the name of M^r. <HI>Prynne,</HI> nor wound
(I beleeve) to his con&s;cience, if hee had wav'd tho&s;e hard &s;ugge|&s;tions
we &s;pake of, and &s;ub&s;tituted the&s;e or the like in their &s;tead,
as the true grounds of his brethrens <HI>not clo&s;ing</HI> with him, and tho&s;e
of his judgement in the Presbyterian way. The truth is, that for
my part (and I verily beleeve that I may truly &s;peak the &s;ame for
many thou&s;ands more) any conceit or <HI>deeming of my &s;elfe more holy
then others,</HI> was &s;o far from intere&s;&s;ing either my judgement or af|fections
for the congregational way in the lea&s;t, or from keeping me
at any di&s;tance from my brethren of a contrary judgement, that a
&s;en&s;e of mine owne defectivene&s;&s;e therein, together with an earne&s;t
de&s;ire of better accommodations for my &s;upplies, was not the lea&s;t
of tho&s;e motives and arguments which carried and &s;et my heart
upon that way. And here I make open profe&s;&s;ion in the pre&s;ence
of Heaven and Earth, that if any of my brethren of oppo&s;ite
judgement, &s;hall give me any rea&s;onable account, or &s;atisfaction,
how in an ordinary way of providence, or experience, I may build
up my &s;elfe in holine&s;&s;e, better (or, if it be but as well) in the way
of Presbytery, then in that way wherein I am for the pre&s;ent in|gaged,
I will &s;oon pull down what I have built, and dwell no lon|ger
in the Tents of Independencie, but devote my &s;elfe, and all my
<PB N="30" REF="20">
&s;trength and might, to the &s;ervice of that way, which for di&s;tin|ction
&s;ake is called Presbyterie. For I make no que&s;tion, but
that way of Church-government which hath the riche&s;t &s;ympa|thy,
and mo&s;t direct and full compliance with the edification of
the Saints in holine&s;&s;e, is again&s;t all rea&s;ons, grounds, and argu|ments
of what &s;eeming &s;trength or evidence &s;oever, the way which
Je&s;us Chri&s;t hath &s;ealed.</P>
<P>For any <HI>har&s;h cen&s;ures</HI> ca&s;t, or pa&s;&s;ed by any Congregationall
men upon Mr. <HI>Prynne,</HI> or other of their brethren of Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI>
judgement and way, I tru&s;t the complaint is to the height of the
crime. I cannot ju&s;tifie one <HI>har&s;h cen&s;ure</HI> given, by a thou&s;and re|ceived:
but if there were a Law for any &s;uch attonement, I make no
que&s;tion but that all the Congregational delinquency in that kind,
would be fully purged. If my pen hath tre&s;pa&s;&s;ed in this kinde,
(whereof notwith&s;tanding I am no ways con&s;cious, though upon
&s;ome charge, I have made diligent enquirie after my own guilt) I
hope the la&s;t period in this Mr. <HI>Prynnes Reply</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Where he chargeth mee to have pre|&s;umptuou&s;ly undermined the undoub|ted privile|ges of Parlia|ment, with I know not how many more Anti-parlia|mentary pa&s;|&s;ages diame|trally contra|ry to my na|tionall vow and cove|uant, &amp;c.</NOTE>, will &s;peak a good
word for it, and &s;alve the imputation of &s;uch a &s;in.</P>
<P>Hitherto I have examined onely &s;uch pa&s;&s;ages in the Reply
which concerne the common cau&s;e depending between the two
wayes of Church-government, &s;o much ingaged in competition.
My Pen mu&s;t now travaile for her &s;elfe, and make triall of her
&s;trength for the redeeming of her own <HI>Innocency</HI> out of the hand
of tho&s;e accu&s;ations,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 31.</NOTE> which have laid violent hands upon her. I
intend &s;carce &s;o much as to touch or mention any thing that was
brought to the touch-&s;tone in the former part of this di&s;cour&s;e: a
&s;ingle vindication is large allowance for criminations without ei|ther
&s;ub&s;tance, or colour of truth: the chiefe (&amp; almo&s;t the only)
thing which I have now to doe, is to weigh the di&s;cu&s;&s;ions of Mr.
<HI>Prynnes</HI> pen in oppo&s;ition to tho&s;e of mine, in the ballance of rea|&s;on
and truth, that &s;o the reader, to whom judgement in this ca&s;e
belongeth, may give &s;entence accordingly.</P>
<P>But fir&s;t it is a thing almo&s;t incredible,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 32.</NOTE> (doubtle&s;&s;e farre be|yond
the belief of any &s;ober or ingenuous man) that a man of that
Name and Reputation not only for learning, but for Religion al|&s;o,
which Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> is, &s;hould affirme, tho&s;e 15. lines about the
middle of page 18. to be <HI>the main doctrine pro&s;ecuted</HI> in my di&s;cour&s;e
called <GAP DESC="foreign">: the &s;aid 15 lines being nothing el&s;e but a rap&s;ody
<PB N="31" REF="20">
or collection of &s;everall words, phra&s;es, and expre&s;&s;ions, &s;cattered
here and there throughout the Di&s;cour&s;e, &s;ome of them being ex|pre&s;sly
contrary to tho&s;e re&s;trictions and limitations, under which
the doctrine there pro&s;ecuted, is propounded, and a&s;&s;erted in the
explication of it. As for example; whereas page 18. of the &s;aid
<HI>Theomachia,</HI> I expre&s;&s;e my &s;elfe thus; <HI>If to attempt the &s;uppre&s;&s;ion, or
keeping downe any way, doctrine or practice, which is from God, bee of no
le&s;&s;e concernment, of no &s;afer interpretation then a fighting again&s;t God,
then certainly it is the greate&s;t imprudence, or improvidence under hea|ven,
for any man, or rank of men what&s;oever, to appeare, e&s;pecially in any
high-handed oppo&s;ition, or conte&s;tation, again&s;t any way, &amp;c.</HI> In &s;tead of
tho&s;e words, <HI>To appeare, e&s;pecially in any high-handed oppo&s;ition,</HI> he,
mo&s;t unworthily and unchri&s;tianly &s;ub&s;titutes the&s;e, <HI>to appeare, or
&s;o much as to lift up an hand, or thought again&s;t any way, &amp;c.</HI> Which
fal&s;ification of my words is &s;o much the more un&s;ufferable becau&s;e
in the explanation of my doctrine, page 12. I expre&s;&s;e my &s;elfe
thus: <HI>It is not every degree or kind of oppo&s;ing a way, doctrine, or de|&s;igne
of God, which either the Text, or the doctrine calleth a fighting a|gain&s;t
God, but onely &s;uch an oppo&s;ing which is peremptory, and carried
on with an high hand, &s;o that tho&s;e in&s;truments of God which hee hath
anointed to hold forth that way, doctrine, or de&s;igne of his in the world,
are not &s;uffered to execute their commi&s;&s;ion, but are countermanded ei|ther
by the authority, or over-bearing &s;trength or power of men</HI> And im|mediatly
after, for the further explanation of my intent in the do|ctrine
propo&s;ed, I di&s;tingui&s;h thus: <HI>It is one thing to oppo&s;e, or contend
again&s;t a doctrine or way of God,</HI> per modum doctoris: <HI>another to doe
it</HI> per modum judicis: The former I grant, <HI>may befall the be&s;t and
faithfulle&s;t of men;</HI> yea, the later I grant to <HI>be &s;omtimes incident to men
otherwi&s;e upright in the main before God;</HI> onely affirming that <HI>the
children of this later contention and conte&s;tation again&s;t their maker,
mu&s;t expect to be taught more wi&s;dome and reverence towards him with
thorns and briers.</HI></P>
<P>And that the Reader may yet more clearly &s;ee and judge of Mr.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 33.</NOTE>
<HI>Prynnes</HI> artifice in &s;welling my two lines (at mo&s;t) of doctrine, in|to
his 14. or 15. of repre&s;entation, that &s;o hee may have the
fairer mark, and bigger But to hit, I &s;hall <HI>verbatim</HI> tran&s;cribe it, as
it is laid down about the middle of page 12. of the &s;aid di&s;cour&s;e.
The content and words of it are onely the&s;e: <HI>That for any man to
<PB N="32" REF="21">
endevour or attempt the &s;uppre&s;&s;ion of any doctrine, practice or way, which
is from God, is to fight again&s;t God him&s;elfe.</HI> Which doctrine, e&s;pecially
&s;o qualified and under&s;tood, as the &s;ub&s;equent explication &s;tates the
&s;en&s;e, purport, and meaning of it, I could not lightly expect &s;hould
ever have been oppo&s;ed, or conte&s;ted again&s;t by any that were wil|ling
to owne <HI>Abrahams</HI> relation of friend&s;hip unto God.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Jam. 2.</NOTE> But with
what &s;ucce&s;&s;e Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> hath attempted to &s;hake the foundations
of the truth of it, or whether indeed he hath attempted this at all,
and not rather (contrary to the Law of all regular di&s;putation)
fallen foule onely upon the conclu&s;ion it &s;elfe, without giving a|ny
an&s;wer at all unto the premi&s;es, &s;hall bee pre&s;ently taken into
con&s;ideration. In the mean time let mee adde this: That if the
gro&s;&s;e&s;t and mo&s;t abhorred Heretickes in the world, might have
but the &s;ame liberty to prove their hereticall opinions out of the
Scriptures, w^c^h <HI>Pryn</HI> taketh to repre&s;ent the doctrine pro&s;ecuted
by me, and quarrelled again&s;t by him, out of my Sermons, they
might prove them, and that <GAP DESC="foreign">, &amp; <GAP DESC="foreign">, from thence. For
what opinion is there, or lightly can be imagined, but that all the
words, wherin it is (or at lea&s;t very ea&s;ily might be) conceived, may
be found &s;ome where or other &s;cattered here and there &s;everally in
the Scripture, &amp; &s;o be framed together into a &s;entence? By the law
of &s;uch a liberty as this, I might &s;ay, that M^r. <HI>Prynne,</HI> in his Full
Reply, holds, That <HI>wee mu&s;t &s;peedily oppo&s;e, re&s;i&s;t, avoid, &s;uppre&s;&s;e,</HI>
<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Page 18.</NOTE> <HI>Parliaments, Emperours, Kings, Judges, Magi&s;trates, Mini&s;ters,</HI><NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">Page. 24.</NOTE>, <HI>even
for con&s;cience &s;ake, and the Lords &s;ake too</HI><NOTE N="c" PLACE="marg">Page 9.</NOTE>. For all the&s;e words and
clau&s;es are to be found in this di&s;cour&s;e of his, as the pages cited
in the margine doe direct: yea, and twenty moe as wild and un|couth
opinions, and as farre from M^r. <HI>Prinnes</HI> judgement as
this, might by the liberty afore&s;aid, be collected out of the &s;ame
piece.</P>
<P>But let us come to con&s;ider tho&s;e grounds and rea&s;ons,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 34.</NOTE> upon
which, in M^r. <HI>Prynnes</HI> judgement, <HI>it may ju&s;tly be que&s;tioned whether
the Doctrine</HI> expre&s;&s;ed towards the beginning of the la&s;t Section
(<HI>which is the maine,</HI> indeed the onely <HI>Doctrine pro&s;ecuted</HI> in tho&s;e
two innocently-offending Sermons) <HI>be Orthodox or tolerable.</HI></P>
<P>His fir&s;t Rea&s;on is; <HI>becau&s;e it opens a wide gate to the reviving of all
the old, the &s;peading and propagating of all new Here&s;ies, Errors&mdash;without
the lea&s;t timely oppo&s;ition or prevention, to the endangering of
<PB N="33" REF="21">
infinite &s;oules, and di&s;turbance of the Churches, Kingdomes peace. For
there is no Heretique, Schi&s;matique or Sectarie what&s;oever, but pretends
his way, Doctrine, practi&s;e, opinions, to be the way of Chri&s;t, &amp;c.</HI> Will
any rea&s;onable man conceive, that there is any rea&s;on at all in all
this, to que&s;tion the truth or &s;oundne&s;&s;e of the prementioned Do|ctrine?
<HI>For any man</HI> to forbeare <HI>the &s;uppre&s;&s;ion of any Doctrine or Way
which is</HI> (for any thing that is knowne to the contrary) <HI>from God,</HI>
and that <HI>lea&s;t he &s;hould fight again&s;t God,</HI> is this, <HI>to open a wide gate
to all here&s;ies, errors, and &s;chi&s;mes?</HI> Then by the rule of contraries,
the &s;uppre&s;&s;ion of all Doctrines and wayes, which for any thing
that is knowne to the contrary, are from God, mu&s;t be the fa&s;t-&s;hutting
of the gate again&s;t all <HI>here&s;ies, errors, and &s;chi&s;mes.</HI> This is
the heart &amp; &s;oule of the fir&s;t rea&s;on, which intere&s;&s;eth M^r. <HI>Prynnes</HI>
judgement in que&s;tioning the <HI>Orthodoxi&s;me,</HI> yea, the <HI>tolerablene&s;&s;e</HI> of
the premi&s;ed Doctrine. But by the way, if M^r. <HI>Prynnes</HI> judgement
concerning the Doctrine, be, that <HI>it opens a wide gate to all here&s;ies,
errors, &s;chi&s;mes, &s;ects what&s;oever, both new and old, &amp;c.</HI> it is marvaile
it &s;hould have no further operation upon him, then onely to pre|vaile
with him to <HI>que&s;tion whether it be Orthodox or tolerable:</HI> Such
an effect or con&s;equent of a Doctrine as this, is foundation large
enough to build a confident determination upon, that it is <HI>hetero|dox
and intolerable.</HI></P>
<P><HI>And for the body of this Rea&s;on, wherein he informes us at
large (and that with truth enough) that</HI> Satan and his mini&s;ters
al&s;o tranforme them&s;elves into Angels of light, <HI>that fal&s;e Teachers</HI> u|&s;ually
come to &s;educe men in &s;heeps cloathing, that there is no Heretique,
Schi&s;matique, or Sectary what&s;oever, though never &s;o pernicious, gro&s;&s;e,
and dete&s;table, but pretends his way, Doctrine, practi&s;e, to be the way
and truth of Chri&s;t; <HI>with many other good &s;ayings to like effect;
I cannot but marvaile, what a rea&s;onable man &s;hould imagine to
be in all this, to make him que&s;tion the truth of this Doctrine,
that</HI> for any man to attempt the &s;uppre&s;&s;ion of any Doctrine, practi&s;e, or
way which is from God, is to fight again&s;t God. <HI>Becau&s;e</HI> fal&s;e Teachers
pretend their Doctrine to be from God, <HI>doth it therefore follow, that</HI>
the &s;uppre&s;&s;ing of &s;uch a Doctrine which is from God, &s;hould not be a
fighting again&s;t God? <HI>It is &s;omewhat an hard ca&s;e, that a man
&s;hould be arre&s;ted of a</HI> pre&s;umptuous undermining the undoubted pri|viledges
of Parliament by the very roots, <HI>at the &s;uite of &s;uch a con&s;e|quence
as this.</HI></P>
<P><PB N="34" REF="22">
Whereas upon the former a&s;&s;ertions, he enters his action in
&s;uch an Interrogatory as this: <HI>Mu&s;t we therefore not &s;peedily oppo&s;e,
re&s;i&s;t, avoyd, &s;uppre&s;&s;e them now, becau&s;e they thus pretend they are of,
and from God, but &s;tay till God hath renounced them, &amp;c.</HI> I joyne i&s;&s;ue
with him, and &s;ay; that there is little le&s;&s;e then a meere Contra|diction
in the forme of his Plea; <HI>Tho&s;e Doctrines, practi&s;es, opinions,</HI>
which in the former part of his Plea, he had cen&s;ured and con|demned
for <HI>Here&s;ies, Errors, Schi&s;mes, Sects, &amp;c.</HI> in this latter part
of it he &s;uppo&s;eth, that <HI>God hath not yet di&s;claimed, or renounced from
Heaven;</HI> and that we <HI>&s;ee not their condemnation yet written with the
beame of the Sun.</HI> El&s;e why &s;hould he repre&s;ent it as &s;o unrea&s;ona|ble
and hainous a thing, that we &s;hould <HI>&s;tay the oppo&s;ing and &s;up|pre&s;&s;ing
of them,</HI> till &s;uch things were done? Surely M^r. <HI>Prynne</HI> can|not
be &s;o hardy, as to condemne any Doctrine or practi&s;e for
<HI>Hereticall</HI> or <HI>errneous,</HI> untill <HI>God</HI> hath &s;ome wayes or other <HI>di&s;|claimed
or renounced them from Heaven,</HI> for &s;uch. It is he, not M^r.
<HI>Prynne,</HI> that mu&s;t, not onely <HI>determine,</HI> what is <HI>Here&s;ie, Error, and
Schi&s;me,</HI> but al&s;o &s;ignifie his determinations in this kinde, before it
comes to M^r. <HI>Prynnes</HI> turne, or any mans be&s;ide, to give any &s;uch
&s;entence again&s;t them at the barre of their Judgements.</P>
<P>A &s;econd Rea&s;on which created that jealou&s;ie in him we &s;pake
of,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 35.</NOTE> again&s;t the forenamed Doctrine, is <HI>the contrarietie of it to forty
and one expre&s;&s;e precepts and pre&s;idents</HI> (if my Arithmetique failes me
not in the computation) <HI>in the old and new Te&s;tament;</HI> one whereof
(<HI>viz.</HI> Jer. 4. 30, 31.) he avoucheth for <HI>pregnant;</HI> but the re&s;t (it
&s;eems) mu&s;t be <HI>compared together,</HI> or el&s;e the contrarietie in them
to the Doctrine which he oppo&s;eth, will not utter it &s;elf. And it is
well that he can be content to afford us <HI>lea&s;ure</HI> for the <HI>peru&s;all</HI> of
the&s;e Scripture precepts and pre&s;idents, though he would afford
us none, to <HI>peru&s;e</HI> or con&s;ider of <HI>Doctrines or practi&s;es,</HI> as we heard
before. But</P>
<P>1. I mu&s;t profe&s;&s;e the &s;econd time, that I can little le&s;&s;e then
wonder, that the Gentleman &s;hould onely <HI>que&s;tion</HI> or &s;u&s;pect the
<HI>Orthodoxne&s;&s;e</HI> of a Doctrine, and not po&s;itively and peremptorily
conclude it <HI>Heterodox,</HI> which carrieth a <HI>contrarietie</HI> in it <HI>to forty-one
expre&s;&s;e precepts and pre&s;idents of Scripture.</HI> A man would think by
&s;uch a &s;treine of tenderne&s;&s;e and indulgence as this, that he were a
very faire and favourable interpreter of mens opinions and wayes;
<PB N="35" REF="22">
and would never exact or &s;tand upon <HI>Summam jus</HI> (which the
Proverb interprets to be <HI>Summam injuriam</HI>) with any man.</P>
<P>2. <HI>If all</HI> the precepts and pre&s;idents <HI>here drawne together from
the Scriptures, be</HI> expre&s;&s;e, <HI>why is that one,</HI> Jer. 4. 30, 31. <HI>&s;eparated
from all its fellows by this parenthe&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">s of preferment,</HI> [a pregnant
place] <HI>as if all the re&s;t were barren and empty of that conception,
which is indifferently fathered, or mothered rather, upon them all?
and one other of them</HI> (viz. <HI>Gal. 2. 4. to</HI> 18.) <HI>&s;ingularized with
this parenthe&s;is,</HI> [a noted place]? <HI>If no</HI> contrarietie <HI>to the &s;u&s;pected
Doctrine be found either in</HI> the pregnant place, <HI>or in</HI> the noted place,
<HI>I tru&s;t all the re&s;t of the</HI> places <HI>will give</HI> place, <HI>and confe&s;&s;e them|&s;elves
&s;trangers thereunto. Fir&s;t, for the</HI> pregnant place, <HI>Jer.</HI> 4. 30,
31. <HI>doubtle&s;&s;e, there is not &s;o much as an</HI> <GAP DESC="foreign"> <HI>or an em|bryo
of &s;uch a</HI> contrarietie <HI>to be found there. The tenor of the place
is this;</HI> And when thou art &s;poyled, what wilt thou doe? Though thou
cloathe&s;t thy &s;elf with crim&s;on, though thou deckest thee with ornaments
of gold, though thou rente&s;t thy face with paynting; in vaine &s;halt thou
make thy &s;elf faire, thy lovers will de&s;pi&s;e thee, they will &s;eek thy life,
<HI>ver.</HI> 30. For I have heard a voyce as of a woman in travaile, and the an|gui&s;h
as of her that bringeth forth her fir&s;t child, the voyce of the daugh|ter
of Zion, that bewaileth her &s;elf, that &s;preadeth her hands, &s;aying, Woe
is me now: for my &s;oule is wearied becau&s;e of murtherers, <HI>ver. 31. I am
not able to di&s;cerne the lea&s;t &s;welling or bearing-out of the womb
of either of the&s;e ver&s;es, with any</HI> contrarietie <HI>in the lea&s;t, to the im|port
of the Doctrine now under protection.</HI> To attempt the &s;uppre&s;&s;i|on
of any Doctrine or Way which is from God, <HI>may be</HI> a fighting again&s;t
God, <HI>and yet God &s;ay to the</HI> daughter of his people, And when thou art
&s;poyled, what wilt thou doe? <HI>together with all that which followeth
in the two tran&s;cribed ver&s;es. I beleeve</HI> the noted place <HI>is every whit
as voyde of that</HI> contrarietie <HI>we &s;peak of, as we found the</HI> pregnant
place to be. <HI>M^r.</HI> Prynne <HI>him&s;elf, partly tran&s;cribes, partly argues
this place, beautifying the words or clau&s;e wherein he chiefly puts
his tru&s;t, with emphaticall letters, thus;</HI> Paul would not give way to
fal&s;e Apo&s;tles, <HI>NO NOT FOR AN HOURE,</HI> that the truth of
the Go&s;pel might continue among the Galatians, and re&s;i&s;ted Peter to his
face, as &s;oone as ever he walked di&s;orderly, (<HI>he &s;hould have &s;pake more
truth, if he had &s;aid, as &s;oone as ever he under&s;tood or knew, that
he &s;o walked</HI>) and gave the lea&s;t countenance to fal&s;e Teachers, &amp;c.</P>
<Q><PB N="36" REF="23">
<L>&mdash;Forta&s;&s;&egrave; cupre&s;&s;um,</L>
<L>Scis &s;imulare: quid hoc, &s;i fractis enatet expes</L>
<L>Navibus, aere dato qui pingitur?</L></Q>
<P>M^r. <HI>Prynne</HI> doth very &s;ub&s;tantially prove, by this pa&s;&s;age, and
that which followes, that errour in Doctrines, and mi&s;carriages in
per&s;ons, are to be re&s;i&s;ted and with&s;tood, (by wayes and means
warrantable by the Word of God) as <HI>&s;oone</HI> as ever they are cer|tainly
di&s;cerned, or known to be &s;uch: but here is not the lea&s;t
&s;emblance of an Argument to prove, either that the one or the
other, ought to be re&s;i&s;ted or &s;uppre&s;&s;ed, before they are di&s;cove|red
or manife&s;ted to be &s;uch; or that being di&s;covered or mani|fe&s;ted
to be &s;uch, they ought to be either re&s;i&s;ted or &s;uppre&s;&s;ed by
any other means, then what God him&s;elf hath authorized in that
behalf; lea&s;t of all, is there any jot, tittle, or peep of a proof of
that, which is the burthen of M^r. <HI>Prynnes</HI> undertaking, <HI>viz.</HI> that <HI>to
attempt the &s;uppre&s;&s;ing of any Doctrine or Way which is from God, is
not to fight again&s;t God.</HI></P>
<P>Nor doth his third Rea&s;on any whit more accommodate his
enterprize,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 36.</NOTE> then the former. For what <HI>contrariety,</HI> or &s;hew of <HI>con|trariety</HI>
is there in <HI>the&s;e unque&s;tionable maximes, of Divinity, Policy,
and Morality, Principiis ob&s;ta<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">e: venienti occarrite morbo, &amp;c.</HI> to that
Doctrine, which only pronounceth, the <HI>attempt of &s;uppre&s;&s;ing any
Doctrine or Way which is of God, to be a fighting again&s;t God?</HI> yea, or
to this; that <HI>no Doctrine or Way ought to be &s;uppre&s;&s;ed, untill it be
certainly known, whether they be from God, or no?</HI> He that gave coun|&s;ell,
<HI>Principiis ob&s;tare, i<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter"></HI> to <HI>with&s;tand beginnings,</HI> did not mean to
advi&s;e men to make re&s;i&s;tance again&s;t &s;uch <HI>beginnings,</HI> which might,
for ought they know, be as wel the <HI>beginings,</HI> of good, or of &s;trength,
as of evill or &s;ickne&s;&s;e; but only &s;uch <HI>beginnings,</HI> which did cleerly
pre&s;age inconvenience en&s;uing, if not timely prevented. And
<HI>though all wi&s;e men hold preventing phy&s;ique be&s;t for their bodies;</HI> yet
no <HI>wi&s;e man holds</HI> &s;uch <HI>Phy&s;ique be&s;t,</HI> or good in any degree for his
body, which is as like to <HI>prevent</HI> the health and &s;ound con&s;titution
of his <HI>body,</HI> as any infirmity or di&s;temper of it. He that will either
launce or &s;eare, before he knowes whether the condition of his bo|dy
requires either, may abound in fle&s;h, but &s;ure is no true born
&s;on of Wi&s;dome. That creature which is indued by God with prin|ciples
of di&s;cerning, certainly was not made to act (e&s;pecially in
<PB N="37" REF="23">
things of highe&s;t importance, as matters of Religion are) at per|adventure.</P>
<P>His 4^t^h and la&s;t Rea&s;on holds no corre&s;pondence at all with the
Truth.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 37.</NOTE> For what <HI>contrariety</HI> is there in the <HI>Doctrine</HI> under M^r. <HI>Pryns</HI>
arre&s;t, <HI>to the Policy, Practice of mo&s;t godly Magi&s;trates, Princes, Mi|ni&s;ters,
Churches in all Ages, Nations?</HI> When did the <HI>Policy</HI> or
<HI>Practice</HI> of any of the&s;e affirm, that <HI>to attempt the &s;uppre&s;&s;ion of any
Doctrine or Way which is from God, is not to fight again&s;t God?</HI> If his
meaning be, that the <HI>Policy and Practice</HI> of the per&s;ons hee repre|&s;ents,
never <HI>indulged</HI> any known <HI>Here&s;ies, Errors, Schi&s;mes; no, not
for an houre,</HI> the Doctrine again&s;t which hee contends, in this con|tends
not at all again&s;t him, but gives him the right hand of fel|low&s;hip
in &s;uch an apprehen&s;ion. Only it adviceth <HI>godly Ma|gi&s;trates,
Prince, Mini&s;ters, Churches,</HI> to be very carefull and wary,
of &s;uppre&s;&s;ing <HI>Angels of light</HI> indeed, in&s;tead of <HI>Satan transformed
into an Angel of light;</HI> of baiting and hunting the <HI>&s;heep of Chri&s;t,</HI> in
&s;tead of <HI>Wolves that come in &s;heeps clothing;</HI> of &s;mothering light in
&s;tead of darkne&s;&s;e, of &s;miting truth in &s;tead of error and here&s;ie.
And is there any harme in this coun&s;ell or <HI>contrariety</HI> either to the
<HI>Policy or Practice</HI> of any wi&s;e or <HI>godly</HI> man? Or, if there be any <HI>con|trariety</HI>
to either, it is becau&s;e there is a <HI>contrariety</HI> in them to the
Word and Wildome of God.</P>
<P><HI>Whereas in the &s;ame Rea&s;on,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 38.</NOTE> <HI>he makes him&s;elf a further debtor
unto mee, by charging mee, that</HI> I plead for Schi&s;mes and CON|VENTICLES
&s;et up only by private &s;pirits in oppo&s;ition to the
publique e&s;tabli&s;hed Church-reiglement.</P>
<P>My An&s;wer is:</P>
<P>1. That I know a <HI>publique Church-reiglement</HI> abrogated and de|moli&s;hed,
but I know none as yet <HI>e&s;tabli&s;hed.</HI> When M^r. <HI>Prynne</HI> by
his Logique &s;hall convince mee of acting <HI>in oppo&s;ition</HI> to that which
is not, I tru&s;t I &s;hall be provided with mine to give him a &s;atisfy|ing
an&s;wer.</P>
<P>2. Whereas he declares again&s;t me, as <HI>a Pleader</HI> for <HI>Schi&s;mes</HI> and
<HI>Conventicles;</HI> I an&s;wer, that hee is the happie&s;t man I know of his
Profe&s;&s;ion, if he never <HI>pleaded</HI> any wor&s;e Cau&s;e, then that which
I <HI>plead</HI> in tho&s;e Sermons. But whereas in other places of his Reply,
his margent glorieth with quotations in abundance, here (it &s;eems)
it is a&s;hamed, as not knowing what to &s;ay, nor where to finde or
<PB N="38" REF="24">
point at, any <HI>pleading for Schi&s;mes and Conventicles,</HI> as the lines in
the <HI>page</HI> adventure to affirm.</P>
<P>3. <HI>What M</HI>^r. Prynnes <HI>privie notion of a</HI> Schi&s;me or Conventicle <HI>is,
I am not able to &s;ay: but if hee be here of the &s;ame minde and
judgement with his own marginall note,</HI> p. 10. <HI>which affirmeth,
that</HI> none are Conventiclers but Heretiques and Schi&s;matiques, who
wholly &s;eparate them&s;elves from our publique a&s;&s;emblies e&s;tabli&s;hed by
law; <HI>certain I am, that I</HI> plead <HI>for no</HI> Conventicles <HI>in tho&s;e Ser|mons;
nor do I approve of the practice of any, who</HI> wholly &s;epa|rate
them&s;elves from our publique a&s;&s;emblies. <HI>But</HI> calumniare audacter;
aliquid haerebit, <HI>holds good (it &s;eems) in Law. But,</HI></P>
<P>4. If by <HI>pleading for Schi&s;mes and Conventicles,</HI> he means a plead|ing
for the &s;pirituall liberties of the <HI>Congregations of the Saints,</HI> and
of the <HI>A&s;&s;emblies of the fir&s;t-born, who&s;e names are written in heaven,</HI>
whom Je&s;us Chri&s;t hath <HI>made Kings and Prie&s;ts unto God his Fa|ther,</HI>
<NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">Rev. 1. 6.</NOTE> and who are &s;hortly <HI>to judge the world,</HI> if the vindication (I
&s;ay) of the rights and priviledges of the&s;e in point of exemption
and immunity in their &s;pirituall affaires, and &s;uch as concern the
regulation of their con&s;ciences in matters appertaining to the
wor&s;hip and &s;ervice of God, from the Juri&s;diction and intere&s;t of
the Commi&s;&s;ioners and Delegates of the world; if this (once
again) be <HI>pleading</HI> for <HI>Schi&s;mes and Conventicles,</HI> I had quitted my
&s;elf much more like a faithfull Mini&s;ter of Je&s;us Chri&s;t, if I had
<HI>pleaded</HI> for them yet &s;even times more, then now I have done.
My &s;orrow and &s;hame (in part) is, that I have pleaded this ho|nourable
Cau&s;e &s;o weakly, as to leave thoughts and imaginations
in M^r. <HI>Prynne,</HI> which &s;till exalt and magnifie them&s;elves again&s;t the
righteou&s;ne&s;&s;e, truth, and equity of it.</P>
<P>5. And la&s;tly, whereas hee calls the <HI>Church-government</HI> which I
<HI>plead</HI> for, a Government <HI>&s;et up only by private &s;pirits;</HI> if it be found
to be a <HI>Government &s;et up</HI> by the <HI>Spirit</HI> of God in the Scriptures
(the con&s;ideration unto which all my pleadings for it in tho&s;e
Sermons are homagers, being all of them conditionall, and none
peremptory or ab&s;olute) M^r. <HI>Prynnes &s;pirit,</HI> and the <HI>&s;pirits</HI> of all
others that &s;hall oppo&s;e it, how <HI>publique</HI> &s;oever their per&s;ons may
be, will be found to be <HI>the private &s;pirits,</HI> di&s;allowed in the Scrip|tures
by the Spirit of God.</P>
<P><HI>Whereas hee yet addes,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 39.</NOTE> <HI>that</HI> differences and varieties in matters
<PB N="39" REF="24">
of government are &s;uch tender things, that they cannot be tolerated in
one and the &s;elf-&s;ame Church and State, without infinite inconve|niences
and di&s;tances, &amp;c. <HI>I an&s;wer,</HI></P>
<P>1. That <HI>differences and varieties in matters of Government,</HI> are
not things &s;o <HI>tender</HI> in any degree, as the con&s;ciences of the
Saints; and therefore no rea&s;on, that <HI>Rea&s;on of State</HI> &s;hould be
more tenderly re&s;pected, then the&s;e. Better a thou&s;and men in|convenienced
in their temporalls, then one righteous &s;oul woun|ded
in his &s;piritualls; yea, or then one &s;in committed to prevent
all tho&s;e inconveniences. <HI>Vna Dei gloria</HI> (&s;aith <HI>Calvin,</HI> a great
Presbyterian) <HI>praeferri meretur centum mundis.</HI> Yea, and one greater
then <HI>Calvin</HI> (I mean the Apo&s;tle <HI>Paul</HI>) &s;aith, (neither &s;aith he any
thing more then what an whole Chri&s;tian State or Nation is
bound to &s;ay) <HI>If meat offendeth my brother, I will eat no fle&s;h while&s;t
the world &s;tandeth, that I may not offend my brother,</HI> 1 Cor. 8. 13. But,</P>
<P>2. Whereas wee &s;till heare of <HI>wars and rumors of wars</HI> from
Presbyteriall pens, of <HI>infinite inconveniences and di&s;turbances,</HI> and
turnings of all things up&s;ide down in States, as if they &s;hould
never die any other death, in ca&s;e any other Government &s;hould
be indured, but their own; the truth is, that &s;uch predictions (or
pretences rather) as the&s;e, are but a kind of politique agents &s;ent
forth to negotiate their Cau&s;e with the ignorance and &s;implicity
of the generality of men; who being indifferent for matter of
Church-government, but of firmly-re&s;olv'd judgements to keep
them&s;elves as far from all that which is called trouble or di&s;tur|bances
as po&s;&s;ibly they can, are apt to drink in the impre&s;&s;ions of
all overtures or pretences which &s;ound that way, <HI>as fi&s;hes drink
water,</HI> and &s;o are made Pro&s;elytes of a zealous in&s;piration for the
Cla&s;&s;ique Con&s;i&s;tory. <HI>Primus in orbe Deos fecit timor.</HI> That mixture
of ignorance and feare which is commonly found in vulgar con&s;ti|tutions,
may ea&s;ily be wrought and fa&s;hion'd by a politique hand,
almo&s;t into what apprehen&s;ions, and indeavours &s;uitable, a man
de&s;ireth; if his de&s;ign in this kind exceed not the compa&s;&s;e and
content of nature: for the darkne&s;&s;e of ignorance hath no com|munion
at all with the kingdome of light; but being in conjuncti|on
with an awakened pa&s;&s;ion of feare, it di&s;po&s;eth the hearts and
&s;ouls of men to receive any &s;uper&s;titious impre&s;&s;ions of what &s;hape
and from &s;oever the <HI>intellectus agens,</HI> or hee that worketh upon it,
<PB N="40" REF="25">
&s;hal de&s;ire. For my part, I am not able to calculate the lea&s;t rational
proportion or conexion between a variety or diffrence of Church-government,
&amp; the di&s;tractions, or di&s;turbances in a State; nor can I
ea&s;ily beleeve, that all the Presbyterian Writers them&s;elves, do truly
&amp; unfainedly fear any &s;uch effect from &s;uch a cau&s;e, though &s;ome
peradventure may. For what if every congregation or Pari&s;h in &amp;
about <HI>London,</HI> had a different government, or way of ordering
their Church-affairs, as they generally have &s;omewhat (more or
le&s;&s;e) differing in the ordering and managing of their Ve&s;tries, or
Parochiall civill affaires, the one being &s;uppo&s;ed as agreeable to
the civill Lawes of the State, as the other, and each Pari&s;h re&s;pe|ctively
&s;atisfied, and well apaid with their own government, I am
not able to di&s;cerne, nor ca&s;t it in my thoughts, how the peace or
&s;afety of the civill State &s;hould &s;uffer in the lea&s;t by it. But I can
very ea&s;ily conceive, how a State may be very probably di&s;turbed,
(and I can give in&s;tances of many that have been) by an univer&s;all
compul&s;ion of all the &s;ubjects thereof, to one and the &s;ame Religi|on;
yea, and how by the like compul&s;ion to one and the &s;ame
Church-government. It is very &s;trange to me that they that know
(and how generally it is knowne) what variety of Churches and
Church-government, yea, and profe&s;&s;ions of Religion there are,
and have for a long time been in the dominion of the States of
<HI>Holland,</HI> and withall, how pacate, flouri&s;hing, and free from <HI>di|&s;turbance</HI>
this State hath been; and againe, how that not onely a
forme of Church-government differing from that kinde of go|vernment
which is more generally practi&s;ed throughout the king|dome
of <HI>France,</HI> but even a different Religion al&s;o, have with|out
the lea&s;t occa&s;ion of inconvenience or di&s;turbance to the
State, (yea I might &s;ay, to the great advantage and benefite of the
State,) been tolerated, yea little le&s;&s;e then countenanced, and that
neer the very heart, &amp; chiefe places of this Kingdom; very &s;trange
(<HI>I</HI> &s;ay) to me it is, that they that cannot lightly but know the&s;e
things (be&s;ides many other in&s;tances in other States and Repub|licks,
of like con&s;ideration) &s;hould yet pretend fears, yea certainties
of I know not what <HI>inconveniences and di&s;turbances to the State,</HI> if a|ny
more Church-governments then one &s;hould take place, or bee
endured in it. They that &s;hall plea&s;e to peru&s;e page 23. of the Re|ply
of the two brethren to <HI>A. S.</HI> &s;hall finde many Scriptures, of a
<PB N="41" REF="25">
friendly and harmle&s;&s;e con&s;i&s;tence of &s;everall Religions (and there|fore
doubtle&s;&s;e of &s;everall Church-governments) in the &s;ame State,
be&s;ides &s;ome others. And <HI>Lucas O&s;iander</HI> in his Epitome of the Ec|cle&s;ia&s;ticall
Hi&s;tory, written by the <HI>Magdeburgen&s;es,</HI> in the 6^t^h <HI>Cen|tury,</HI>
relates &s;everall examples of &s;ucce&s;sfull i&s;&s;ues and events of
&s;uch mutuall tolerations, as wee now &s;peak of. Troubles and
di&s;turbances of States, are far more like to be the fruits and con&s;e|quents
of rigour and hard mea&s;ure, mea&s;ured out unto the Saints,
then of favour or conde&s;cen&s;ion unto them for their accommo|dation.
They that think a State &s;hould <HI>work wi&s;ely</HI> for it &s;elf, by
any hard intreaty of the &s;ervants of God, have forgotten where|fore
<HI>Pharoah</HI> and his great ho&s;t peri&s;hed together in the red Sea.</P>
<P><HI>Whereas</HI> p.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 40.</NOTE> 19. <HI>he taxeth me with a default, that</HI> I neither di&s;co|ver
unto him what that Way is, which I there &s;o earne&s;tly plead for, nor
produce any one text to prove it Chri&s;ts own way, nor one example to war|rant
it, &amp;c. <HI>My An&s;wer is,</HI></P>
<P>1. I &s;uppo&s;e, that an under&s;tanding man, as all men acknow|ledge
M^r. <HI>Prynne</HI> to be, that pro&s;ecutes a Way with &s;o much vio|lence
and bitterne&s;&s;e, as hee doth the Way there pleaded for, un|der&s;tandeth
it all over, through and through, (and &s;o needeth not
any further di&s;covery of it to be made unto him). Such a man
(doubtle&s;&s;e) will take heed above all caution, of &s;tumbling at that
&s;tone above all other, whereat the <HI>Princes of this world</HI> &s;tumbled,
and were broke to pieces, when <HI>they crucified the Lord of glory,</HI> before
they knew who he was, 1 <HI>Cor.</HI> 2. 8.</P>
<P>2. I an&s;wer further, that it was no part of my de&s;ign or intent
in tho&s;e Sermons, to ju&s;tifie the <HI>Way</HI> &s;o oft there mentioned, &s;imply,
or as a Way of Chri&s;t again&s;t all contradiction; but only to ju&s;tifie
it again&s;t tho&s;e common exceptions and vulgar objections there
in&s;i&s;ted upon; and to demon&s;trate, that it may be <HI>Chri&s;ts own Way,</HI>
notwith&s;tanding any thing that hath yet appeared to take away
that crowne from it: and &s;o upon this con&s;ideration, to per&s;wade
men, as they love and tender their own &s;afety and peace, not to
lay violent hands upon it, untill they &s;hould have better grounds
to judge it none of <HI>Chri&s;ts Way,</HI> then yet they had any. This be|ing
the adequate and preci&s;e tenor of my intention in that Di&s;|cour&s;e,
I kept my &s;elf clo&s;e to it; and &s;o had no occa&s;ion to argue
any thing (or very little) in a cataskena&s;tique or po&s;itive Way for it.</P>
<P><PB N="42" REF="26">
But becau&s;e I produce nothing po&s;itively to prove the Way <HI>I
plead for,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 41.</NOTE> (or rather, again&s;t the &s;uppre&s;&s;ion of it) to be <HI>Chri&s;ts
own Way,</HI> M^r. <HI>Prynne</HI> takes the courage to a&s;&s;ault the credit and re|putation
of it by four Rea&s;ons or Arguments, (as hee de&s;ires to
have their number thought) though the &s;econd and fourth be but
one and the &s;ame; and the third, nothing but what hee had &s;aid
before, and that un&s;ucee&s;&s;efully, (as was argued in the 39^t^h <HI>Section</HI>
of this Di&s;cour&s;e) and the fir&s;t, &s;econd, third and fourth, nothing
to prophane the excellency, or pollute the beauty of that Cau&s;e,
again&s;t which his pen is armed. But let us an&s;wer them, &s;o far as
they have not been an&s;wered already; only this one thing pre|ob&s;erv'd,
that M^r. <HI>Prynn's</HI> con&s;cience, with the a&s;&s;i&s;tance of all his
four Arguments, doth not yet &s;erve him, peremptorily or &s;imply
to condemn this <HI>Way,</HI> as none of <HI>Chri&s;ts own Way,</HI> but only <HI>to
&s;u&s;pect it none of his,</HI> as him&s;elf expre&s;&s;eth him&s;elf in the la&s;t line of
<HI>pag.</HI> 19. Now being advanced no further in the confidence of his
judgement again&s;t this <HI>Way,</HI> but only <HI>to &s;u&s;pect it</HI> for none of
Chri&s;ts, I tru&s;t, that remembring what <HI>Cameron</HI> (a learned Pre&s;|byterian)
&s;aith, <HI>viz.</HI> that <HI>&s;u&s;picion of fal&s;ity, was ever a calamity in|cident
to truth,</HI> he will advance no further in his oppo&s;ition to it,
untill his <HI>&s;u&s;picion</HI> be grown up to the &s;tature of a perfect, cleere,
and certain <HI>knowledge.</HI> This only premi&s;ed, let us try whether the
grounds of his jealou&s;ie it &s;elf will not &s;hake.</P>
<P>To the fir&s;t wee an&s;wer,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 42.</NOTE></P>
<P>1. That whereas this <HI>Way</HI> is here charged to <HI>be a new Way, ne|ver
yet heard of, in any age or Church of Chri&s;t;</HI> it hath been &s;uffici|ently
proved by tho&s;e that have written in the defence of it; that
in point of Antiquity, it hath the preheminence of its Competi|tre&s;&s;e
to the value of 1500 yeers, as having been that <HI>Way</HI> of Go|vernment,
wherein the Primitive Churches of Chri&s;t, through his
gracious &amp; wi&s;e indulgence admini&s;tred unto them by his Apo&s;tles
in this behalf rejoyced for the &s;pace of about 200. yeers, as M^r. <HI>Bur|ton</HI>
in his An&s;wer to M^r. <HI>Prynn's</HI> two fir&s;t pieces upon this &s;ubject,
lately publi&s;hed, cleerly manife&s;ts, <HI>p.</HI> 19. and 24.<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">M^r <HI>Jacob</HI> affirmeth, that for the &s;pace of 200. or 300. yeeres after Chri&s;t, every vi&s;ible church had power to exerci&s;e Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Government, and all other Gods &s;pirituall Ordinances (the means of &s;alvation) in and for it &s;elf, immediatly from Chri&s;t. <HI>Sions</HI> Prerogative, <HI>p.</HI> 28, 29.</NOTE> &s;hewing more|over,
how the&s;e Churches in time came to degenerate in point of
Government, and to lo&s;e their &s;pirituall liberties therein.</P>
<P><PB N="43" REF="26">
2. Whereas the <HI>oppo&s;ition of the generality of Magi&s;trates, Mini|&s;ters
and people</HI> to this Way, is pleaded in barre to the legitimacy
and truth of it; We an&s;wer,</P>
<P>1. That according to the tenor of Poeticall &s;tory; <HI>Vly&s;&s;es</HI> af|ter
twenty yeers ab&s;ence from his hou&s;e and home, was grown out
of the knowledge of his friends and neighbours; yea, <HI>Penelope</HI> her
&s;elf (his wife) knew him not at his return at fir&s;t, but upon &s;ome
conference and di&s;coveries otherwi&s;e, hee became known both to
the one and the other. Nor &s;hould it &s;eem &s;trange to any, that a
Church-government, &s;et up by the Apo&s;tles, &s;o many hundreth
yeers &s;ince, and having for a thou&s;and yeers and upwards been
in exile, the rights, priviledges and po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ions of it &s;ei&s;ed upon,
and u&s;urped by others, &s;hould not pre&s;ently at the fir&s;t return of it,
be acknowledged by the generality of men, no, nor by the genera|lity
of her friends them&s;elves, I mean, godly, &s;ober, and under|&s;tanding
men; whom I call her friends, becau&s;e I make no que&s;ti|on,
but there lies love and friend&s;hip to her, at the root and bot|tome
of their hearts, though there be a cru&s;t of enmity and oppo|&s;ition
at the top, for a &s;ea&s;on. <HI>Jo&s;eph</HI> will in due time, make him|&s;elf
known unto his brethren.</P>
<P>2. Though numbers of tho&s;e that are oppo&s;ite to this <HI>Way,</HI> if
we compute the generality of them, be <HI>confe&s;&s;edly</HI> far greater, then
of tho&s;e that plead for her; yet the <HI>barren</HI> begins to rejoyce, and <HI>to
beare children apace;</HI> and the <HI>de&s;olate</HI> may in time come <HI>to have more
children then &s;he that hath an husband. John Bapti&s;t</HI> had many moe
Di&s;ciples and followers at fir&s;t, then Chri&s;t him&s;elf; yet ingenu|ou&s;ly
&s;ub&s;cribed to the dignity of Chri&s;t above him&s;elf, &s;aying, <HI>He
mu&s;t increa&s;e, but I mu&s;t decrea&s;e,</HI> Joh. 3. 30.</P>
<P>3. The judgements both of Magi&s;trates and common people,
concerning this Way, depending chiefly (if not &s;olely) upon the
judgements of Mini&s;ters, it is the le&s;&s;e &s;trange, that there &s;hould be
found &s;uch a grand concurrence in the judgements of both again&s;t
it, e&s;pecially for a time. There are the&s;e twelve Rea&s;ons (among
others) why the judgements of Mini&s;ters e&s;pecially may, according
to the cour&s;e of humane affairs in other like ca&s;es, &s;tand off at &s;ome
di&s;tance form this Goverment, for a &s;ea&s;on.</P>
<P>Fir&s;t, their judgements have for a long time conver&s;ed familiar|ly
with another, and that with approbation and contentment; by
<PB N="44" REF="27">
means whereof there is a kinde of a plea&s;ing &s;ympathy or conna|turalne&s;&s;e
growne between them; which is &s;uch a conveniencie or
accommodation, that nature will not &s;uddenly quit or lo&s;e, nor
without good con&s;ideration: <HI>No man</HI> (&s;aith our Saviour) <HI>that hath
drunk old wine, &s;treight way de&s;ireth new; for he &s;aith, the old is bet|ter,</HI>
Luke 5. 39.</P>
<P>Secondly, godly Mini&s;ters (more generally) &s;tand publiquely
declared in their judgements for another Government. And how
hard a thing is it, even for good men (in the Philo&s;ophers phra&s;e)
<GAP DESC="foreign">, to do execution upon their own tenets and opi|nions,
e&s;pecially when they have own'd them in the &s;ight of the
world? The ca&s;ting out of his &s;on <HI>I&s;mael,</HI> is &s;aid to have been a
thing <HI>very grievous in Abrahams &s;ight,</HI> notwith&s;tanding he had the
advantage of the expre&s;&s;e Commandement of God upon him, to
make it ea&s;ie, <HI>Gen.</HI> 21. 11. It is confe&s;&s;ed, that this, (haply with
&s;ome others of the Rea&s;ons following) beares as hard again&s;t &s;ome
Independents in their adhe&s;ion unto, and &s;tiff-&s;tanding by their
Way, as it doth again&s;t Presbyterians in their re&s;olvedne&s;&s;e for
theirs. But this rather confirms, then any way infeebles, the ar|gumentative
authority of it for that probation, which it un|dertakes.</P>
<P>Thirdly, many Mini&s;ters conceive, that if they &s;hall pull out
but one &s;tone out of their building, though never &s;o ill laid, they
&s;hall &s;hake the foundations of the whole fabrique, and that in ca&s;e
them&s;elves &s;hould begin with any one of tho&s;e Doctrines w^c^h they
have taught, to di&s;claim it, the people will follow their example
herein, and do the like by all the re&s;t. Whereas on the contrary,
the truth is, that <HI>to &s;eparate the vile from the precious,</HI> is to rai&s;e the
honour and e&s;teem of that which is <HI>precious;</HI> and the cancelling of
&s;ome things, which a man hath taught, as erroneous, is an high
confirmation of all the re&s;t; according to that Schoole maxime,
<HI>Exceptio firmat regulam in non exceptis.</HI></P>
<P>Fourthly, many by being declaredly ingag'd for &s;uch or &s;uch an
opinion, have fared the better for it, either in their credits and
reputations, or otherwi&s;e; yea, and haply at unawares, have gained
deep intere&s;t and honour with per&s;ons of name and prime re&s;pects
in the world, by means of a co-ingagement in the &s;ame opinion
with them. Now as our Saviour &s;aith,<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Mar. 9. 39.</NOTE> <HI>there is no man that
<PB N="45" REF="27">
&s;hall doe a miracle in my name, that can lightly &s;peake evill of me;</HI> No
more will men ea&s;ily be brought to make refu&s;e or untruth of any
&s;uch opinion, which hath been, and &s;till continues, &s;uch a Bene|factre&s;&s;e
unto them. Mini&s;ters may truly &s;ay in &s;uch ca&s;es, <HI>Benefi|cium
accepi, libertatem vendidi:</HI> i. by receiving a benefit, I have &s;old my
liberty.</P>
<P>Fifthly, many are <HI>not able to be baptized with the bapti&s;me where|with
Paul was baptized,</HI> Act. 17. 18. where he was charged to bee
<HI>a &s;etter forth of new Gods:</HI> they are not able to beare the reproach
of being teachers of new doctrines; of being charged with whim|zies
and <HI>Independent Crotchets</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Mr. <HI>Prynne.</HI> full Replies. p 74.</NOTE>, of trading in <HI>Apes avd Peacocks</HI><NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">M. <HI>Edwards Antapol.</HI> p. 261.</NOTE>, &amp;c.
and &s;o re&s;olve to hold on in &s;uch a way, wherein though they may
meet with &s;ome reproofes, yet they are &s;ure of farre <HI>more with them,</HI>
then they can feare being <HI>again&s;t them.</HI></P>
<P>Sixthly, &s;ome think it a point of humility to build upon <HI>other
mens foundations,</HI> and feare they &s;hould pollute the memories and
honour of <HI>Calvin, Beza,</HI> and other famous lights in the Church of
God, if they &s;hould recede from their principles in the lea&s;t.</P>
<P>Seventhly, &s;ome have <HI>lae&s;um principium,</HI> a maimed principle of
&s;eeing any thing that is new, except they &s;ee it fir&s;t, cannot &s;toop
&s;o low, as to carry any mans honor after him, (e&s;pecially that con|ver&s;eth
upon the earth with him: <HI>Pa&s;citur in vivis livor:</HI>) nor yet
&s;o farre di&s;parage their own parts and abilities, as to judge any
thing which is of a new di&s;covery, to be Truth, except they bee
&s;ome wayes or other intere&s;&s;ed in the di&s;covery of it. <HI>Ingenio qui
vult cedere, rarus erit.</HI> There is a notion (un&s;ound as it &s;eemes to
me) of a kind of knowledge &s;uppo&s;ed to be in God,<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Twi&s;&s; de Sci|entia med.</NOTE> called <HI>Sci|entia
media,</HI> lately &s;tarted among&s;t the Schoolmen: and how doe
the great ma&s;ters of that learning, contend among&s;t them&s;elves
for the primacie of that invention? <HI>Fon&s;eca</HI> &s;tands up, and tells
the world,<NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">Ego (inquit Fon&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">ca) in A|cademia Co|n<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">mbricen&s;i, hoc primus ob|&s;ervavi. Imo potius ego (cla|mat Molina) apud, Eboren|&s;es meos. His non cedit Leo|nardus Le&s;|&s;ius Lovani|en&s;is, &amp; &s;uo cer<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">bello, de codem partu ambitios&egrave; gra|tulatur. <HI>Prid. Lect. 2. de Scient. med.</HI></NOTE> that he was the fir&s;t that ob&s;erved it among&s;t his <HI>Co|nimbrians.</HI>
Nay rather (&s;aith <HI>Molina</HI>) I am he that fir&s;t di&s;covered
it among&s;t my <HI>Eborans.</HI> In comes <HI>Le&s;&s;ius</HI> from among&s;t his <HI>Lova|nians,</HI>
and takes away this Crown from them both, and &s;ets it up|on
his own brain.</P>
<P>Eighthly, &s;ome are of opinion, that matters of truth in point of
Church-government, are neither too great nor too good, to bee
&s;acrificed upon the &s;ervice of peace; though <HI>Luthers</HI> &s;aying was,
<PB N="46" REF="28">
that <HI>unus apex verbi, major e&s;t coelo &amp; terra:</HI> i. <HI>the lea&s;t tittle, or poynt
of the word of God, is greater then heaven, and earth.</HI></P>
<P>Ninthly, &s;ome are more addicted to <HI>Authors</HI> then <HI>Arguments,</HI>
for the furni&s;hing of their judgements, and regulating their con|&s;ciences
in matters of Religion: and then it is no marvell if the&s;e
make <HI>Silver and Gold</HI> of the Presbyteriall, and <HI>Hey and Stubble</HI> of
the Congregationall way; though it bee true al&s;o on the other
hand, that in very many Authors, and tho&s;e of Cla&s;&s;ique authori|ty,
both ancient and modern, there are <HI>manife&s;ta rotae ve&s;tigia cer|nendi,</HI>
manife&s;t prints and foot&s;teps of this way<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">See Sions prerogdtive, almo&s;t throughout.</NOTE>.</P>
<P>Tenthly, the Congregationall way puts Mini&s;ters upon a more
immediate dependence upon God and his providence for matter
of maintenance and outward accommodation: and how few are
there but had rather &s;ee, then beleeve? have the knowne Lawes of
a State, then the unknowne purpo&s;es and decrees of heaven, the
vouchers of their livelihood and &s;upports to &s;uch a proportion or
degree?</P>
<P>Eleventhly, (&s;ome it's like) are afraid le&s;t the wrath and di&s;con|tent
of the generality of the people of the Land, &s;hould evince the
error and untruth of the <HI>Congregationall way,</HI> by offering violence
to tho&s;e that &s;hall hold it forth in practice; and &s;o chu&s;e rather to
build upon the peoples generall acceptation of the Presbyterian
way (which they cannot much que&s;tion) as an unque&s;tionable de|mon&s;tration
of the truth and goodne&s;&s;e thereof.</P>
<P>Twelfthly (and la&s;tly) others (probably) are jealous, and fore|&s;ee,
that they &s;hall not be able to give that quarter of contentment
to many great per&s;ons, and men in place of authority, in the <HI>Con|gregationall
way,</HI> which they know they may in the Presbyterian.
Yea, they cannot lightly but fore&s;ee, that in the practice of the
<HI>Congregationall way,</HI> they &s;hall (in all likelihood and without the
gracious hand of God preventing) contract the <HI>odium</HI> and ill will
of many great ones, who under God have power to grind their fa|ces,
and break their bones. And who will be willing to &s;tudy and
take pains, and be earne&s;t with God in prayer night and day, for
the conviction of &s;uch a Truth, which being di&s;covered, will either
expo&s;e a man to all that danger of hard&s;hip and mi&s;ery in the
world, which we &s;peak of, or el&s;e doe him a wor&s;e di&s;plea&s;ure then
&s;o, by tormenting his con&s;cience, in ca&s;e he &s;hall refu&s;e to be &s;o ex|po&s;ed?</P>
<P><PB N="47" REF="28">
The&s;e with many other like rea&s;ons there are, why Mini&s;ters
(rather then others) may more generally incline to fall in rather
with the Presbyterian, then the Congregationall way (and con|&s;equently
why Magi&s;trates and people, who &s;ee much by their eyes,
&s;hould fall in al&s;o) and yet &s;uch a con&s;tellation no &s;igne from hea|ven,
but onely from the earth, (the element made to be trampled
under foot) of the truth &amp; righteou&s;nes of that <HI>Way.</HI> But that I may
not be mi&s;taken, nor leave the lea&s;t touch or ta&s;t of offence in the
mind of any man, by occa&s;ion of the rea&s;ons in&s;i&s;ted upon, I &s;o|lemnly
profe&s;&s;e, as in the pre&s;ence of God, that I intend no ill re|flexion
upon any of my brethren in the Mini&s;tery, who are con|trary
minded to me in point of Church-government, as &s;uch in a|ny
of them; nor to infinuate as if they, either <HI>divi&s;im</HI> or <HI>conjunctim,</HI>
were &s;wayed in their judgements by any of the &s;aid motives in the
pre&s;ent controver&s;ie: but to demon&s;trate again&s;t my Antagoni&s;t,
that &s;uch tentations are very incident to the nature of man, yea,
even when it is under the be&s;t accompli&s;hments of nature, indu&s;try
&amp; grace it &s;elf: and con&s;equently, that his argument drawne, <HI>A mul|titudine
taliter &s;entientium,</HI> is of little force. I freely acknowledge,
that Mini&s;ters very po&s;&s;ibly may have (yea I verily beleeve that ma|ny
have) the Presbyterian way in their hearts, who never con&s;ulted
with any of tho&s;e Oracles about the bringing of it in thither: and
that many of this judgement are as candid, free, un&s;potted, and
untouched by any of tho&s;e re&s;pects, in their way, as many who
imbrace the Congregationall way, are in theirs. Yet</P>
<P>4. I mu&s;t an&s;wer this one thing further to my <HI>Repliers</HI> Argu|ment,
that the te&s;timony of a few godly per&s;ons, having little or
nothing of this world to accommodate their judgements, but a
thou&s;and things to di&s;tance and di&s;ta&s;te them, is in rea&s;onablene&s;&s;e
and fairne&s;&s;e of con&s;truction, of more con&s;ideration for the aver|ment
of a truth, then the judgement of many who have the Sunne,
Moone, and twelve Starres to give light unto them, I mean all or
mo&s;t of this worlds endowments to confirme them.</P>
<P>5. (And la&s;tly) the known ca&s;e happening at the Councel of <HI>Nice</HI>
between <HI>Paphnutius</HI> and the re&s;t of the learned members thereof,
with that of <HI>Athana&s;ius</HI> oppo&s;ing (in a manner) the who&s;e
Chri&s;tian world now turned <HI>Arrian,</HI> with &s;ome others of like
con&s;ideration that might be added, have broke the heart of that
<PB N="48" REF="29">
Topique place, <HI>Quod pluribus videtur, &amp;c.</HI> and made it void and
invalid for ever.</P>
<P>To his &s;econd Argument, which (it &s;eemes) &s;trengthens the
hand of his great jealou&s;ie again&s;t the Congregationall cau&s;e, I
an&s;wer.</P>
<P>Fir&s;t, I am unduly and untruly charged, to <HI>acknowledge the Con|gregationall
government &s;et up by a few private men, again&s;t the Autho|rity
and commands of the Parliament, &amp;c.</HI> I no where mention any
<HI>Authority or command of Parliament</HI> declared again&s;t this <HI>Way;</HI> nei|ther
indeed doe I know any to this houre. Nor doe I either hope
or feare to live to that day, wherein private men may not both
feare God, and obey Je&s;us Chri&s;t, without offending <HI>again&s;t the
authority and commands of Parliament.</HI> But this charge being hard
to find in my di&s;cour&s;e, and he that affirmes it, being de&s;irous to
make it as hard to an&s;wer or di&s;prove, he takes field-room enough
for his reference, and in his Margine bids us (in effect) looke from
page 30. to 52. telling us, that if we look narrowly enough, wee
&s;hall find it &s;omewhere within that circuit, though him&s;elfe (it
&s;eems) knowes not well where.</P>
<P>2. Nor do I any where, either <HI>tacitly</HI> or vocally <HI>acknowledge</HI> that
this way, <HI>not onely denies, but oppugnes the temporall Magi&s;trates,
Parliaments, Synods directions or coercive power in Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall affairs.</HI>
If any man of this way doth <HI>denie,</HI> much more if hee <HI>oppugneth</HI> ei|ther
the one or the other, it is not nece&s;&s;ary that he &s;hould doe ei|ther,
as a Son of this <HI>Way,</HI> nor by any influence of tho&s;e grounds
and principles upon which this <HI>Way</HI> is built. But I verily beleeve,
that Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> never knew any man of this <HI>Way,</HI> that ever <HI>denied,</HI>
much le&s;&s;e <HI>oppugned</HI> any <HI>directions</HI> whether from <HI>Parliaments</HI> or
<HI>Synods,</HI> (or from farre meaner hands then either of the&s;e) unle&s;&s;e
they &s;aw or apprehended them contrary to the mind and will of
God in the Scriptures; in which ca&s;e I have that Chri&s;tian and
honourable opinion of the authour of this charge, that he would
<HI>deny</HI> them him&s;elfe. What he meanes by the word <HI>oppugning,</HI> in
&s;uch an emphaticall oppo&s;ition to a <HI>denying,</HI> is none of my under|&s;tanding.
It he meanes onely a pleading or an arguing <HI>in oppo&s;i|tum,</HI>
I conceive it no wayes oppo&s;ite unto, but of a ju&s;t and nece&s;|&s;ary
concurrence with a <HI>deniall.</HI> For he that <HI>denies</HI> any thing affir|med
by another, is bound to, (or at lea&s;t very lawfully may) give a
<PB N="49" REF="29">
rea&s;on of that his deniall; which mu&s;t needs be an <HI>oppugning</HI> (in
this &s;en&s;e) of the others a&s;&s;ertion. If by <HI>oppugning,</HI> he means, an
oppo&s;ing or re&s;i&s;ting by force, the charge is a mo&s;t unworthy and
unchri&s;tian &s;lander. I no where give the lea&s;t intimation that the
<HI>way</HI> I plead for in any of her principles or maximes, thus <HI>oppugneth</HI>
either <HI>Parliaments</HI> or <HI>Synods,</HI> either in their <HI>directions,</HI> or in the ex|erci&s;e
of any <HI>coercive power.</HI> As for a <HI>coercive power in Synods,</HI> I think
Mr. <HI>Prynnes way denies, if not oppugns,</HI> it, as well as mine. And to
gratifie the Civill Magi&s;trate with &s;uch a <HI>power</HI> as this, in matters
of Religion, denying him withall any <HI>Directive power</HI> for the or|dering
and government of it (which is the bountie of the <HI>Presbyte|rian
way</HI> to the Civill Magi&s;trate<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">The Civill Magi&s;trate ar|rogates not to him&s;elf any di|rective power in matters of Religion. <HI>A. S.</HI> in his Ob&s;erv. &amp; Annot. <HI>p.</HI> 5. And againe, <HI>p.</HI> 7. To grant them &s;uch a power (<HI>viz.</HI> of judging que|&s;tions in de|bate between the two par|ties in the A&s;|&s;embly, &s;peak|ing of the Par|liament) were nothing el&s;e but to joyne your &s;elves with the <HI>Ar|minians,</HI> &amp;c.</NOTE>) is no &s;uch eminency of de&s;ert
at his hand, above what the <HI>Congregationall way</HI> doth willingly and
chearfully leave unto him. The under&s;tanding and rea&s;on of a
man, is certainly better then the &s;trength of an Elephant, or a
Lyon.</P>
<P>3. I ab&s;olutely deny, that Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> hath either <HI>largely,</HI> or
contractedly <HI>proved,</HI> either by <HI>many Texts,</HI> or any Texts, either in
his <HI>Independencie examined,</HI> or in any other of his writings what&s;o|ever,
whether <HI>examined</HI> or unexamined the deniall of any &s;uch <HI>coer|cive
power,</HI> either in <HI>Parliaments or Synods,</HI> to be either <HI>directly</HI> or <HI>in|directly
contrary to the Scriptures,</HI> which either the <HI>Congregationall
way,</HI> or any Patron or friend of this way, that I know of, have <HI>de|nied,</HI>
or doe <HI>deny</HI> unto either. And whereas his page boa&s;ts of his
<HI>large proofe hereof by many Texts,</HI> and by this finger (o) points us to
his margent, as if that would ju&s;tifie and make good this boa&s;ting;
the hone&s;t margent, as con&s;cious to the vanitie thereof, refu&s;eth to
&s;ay any thing at all, jot or tittle, to it.</P>
<P>4. Whereas he pleads, that <HI>Paul him&s;elf even in matters of Reli|gion
pleaded his cau&s;e before Fe&s;tus, Felix, and King Agrippa,</HI> all this
is granted in point of <HI>Truth,</HI> but ab&s;olutely denied in point of <HI>per|tinencie</HI>
to his purpo&s;e. If <HI>Independents be brought before Kings and
Rulers for Chri&s;ts &s;ake,</HI> or for their con&s;cience &s;ake, it is their wi&s;e&s;t
cour&s;e (and that which well becomes them, yea, and that which
they would doe, if &s;o brought) to <HI>plead their cau&s;e before them</HI> as well
as they can, as <HI>Paul</HI> did <HI>before Fe&s;tus, &amp;c.</HI> But though <HI>Paul</HI> was a
<HI>cho&s;en ve&s;&s;ell</HI> of Chri&s;t <HI>to carry his Name before Kings</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Act. 9. 15.</NOTE>, yet they were
cho&s;en ve&s;&s;els of Satan, who compell'd or brought him before
<PB N="50" REF="30">
Kings to an&s;wer for his life, becau&s;e he preach'd and practis'd the
doctrine of Chri&s;t, notwith&s;tanding he alwayes carried the Name
of Chri&s;t with him, when&s;oever he was brought before them.
Nor doth his <HI>pleading his cau&s;e before Fe&s;tus, &amp;c.</HI> any whit more
prove that <HI>Fe&s;tus</HI> had <HI>a lawfull coercive power</HI> in matters of Religi|on,
then <HI>James</HI> his being &s;laine by <HI>Herods &s;word,</HI> or Chri&s;ts being
crucified by <HI>Pilates</HI> power, prove that Civill Magi&s;trates have a
lawfull power to &s;entence the faithfulle&s;t and mo&s;t innocent men
unto death. As for <HI>Pauls appeale unto Cae&s;ar,</HI> (an Heathen Empe|rour)
can we blame him for it, when as he hop'd to find more e|quall
and faire proceedings before him, then at the Judicatories of
inferior Judges? If Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> will accept or interpret, either the
<HI>pleading of our cau&s;e before</HI> a Civill Magi&s;tracy when we are brought
before it, or an appealing from an inferior Civill Judicatory when
we feele or feare inju&s;tice, to a Superior, or an acknowledgement
of a lawfull power in the Civill Magi&s;trate to re&s;traine the violence
and unju&s;t proceedings and practi&s;es of men again&s;t us; if (I &s;ay)
he will interpret any, or all the&s;e, to be an acknowledgement of a
<HI>Coercive power in the Civill Magi&s;trate, in Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall affaires,</HI> there
is an end of this &s;trife between us; we will all readily &s;ub&s;cribe,
that &s;uch a <HI>coercive power</HI> as this <HI>in matters of Religion and Eccle&s;ia|&s;ticall
affaires,</HI> is the <HI>undoubted priviledge</HI> of the Civill Magi&s;trate,
and of right belongs unto him.</P>
<P>5. Wee freely likewi&s;e &s;ub&s;cribe unto tho&s;e injunctions of the
Apo&s;tle, where <HI>he injoyns all Chri&s;tians to pray, even for heathen Kings,
Magi&s;trates, and to &s;ubmit to all their lawfull commands for con&s;cience
&s;ake:</HI> yea, and are heartily &s;orry that any &s;uch <HI>commands</HI> &s;hould at
any time proceed from <HI>Kings, Magi&s;trates,</HI> whether <HI>Heathen</HI> or
<HI>Chri&s;tian,</HI> unto which we cannot <HI>&s;ubmit</HI> with a good con&s;cience,
and <HI>for con&s;cience &s;ake;</HI> but are nece&s;&s;itated even <HI>for con&s;cience &s;ake</HI> to
decline them. Onely we que&s;tion, whether <HI>Kings, Magi&s;trates,
Heathen</HI> or <HI>Chri&s;tian,</HI> have any power from God, to <HI>puni&s;h good and
godly men,</HI> for declining &s;uch commands of theirs <HI>for con&s;cience &s;ake,</HI>
which they cannot <HI>for con&s;cience &s;ake</HI> &s;ubmit unto.</P>
<P>6. For tho&s;e <HI>Princes and Magi&s;trates who were long &s;ence predicted
to become nur&s;ing Fathers to the Church under the Go&s;pel,</HI> we wi&s;h them
all Chri&s;tian care, tenderne&s;&s;e, and compa&s;&s;ion, according to the
nature and tenor of this &s;o honourable a &s;ervice and imployment,
<PB N="51" REF="30">
<HI>&s;o long &s;ence</HI> by prophecie from God a&s;&s;ign'd and recommended un|to
them. But whether it be proper for tho&s;e, that de&s;ire to be
look'd upon as <HI>nur&s;ing Fathers of the Church,</HI> to &s;acrifice the peace
and comfort of one part of the children of the Church upon the
&s;ervice of the wills or humors of another part of them, I leave to
<HI>nur&s;ing mothers,</HI> who have twins of their womb hanging upon their
brea&s;ts, to judge and determine.</P>
<P>7. And la&s;tly, for the <HI>good and whole&s;ome Laws enacted by Cyrus,
Artaxerxes, Darius, &amp;c. for the wor&s;hip of God, &amp;c.</HI> We gave (I tru&s;t)
<HI>a good and whole&s;ome an&s;wer</HI> in the former part of this di&s;cour&s;e,
publi&s;hed &s;ome weeks &s;ince. Wee freely grant a power, yea, and
more then a power, a nece&s;&s;itie by way of dutie, in <HI>Kings, Magi|&s;trates,
to further the honour and &s;ervice of the true God, and his people in
the wor&s;hip of him.</HI> It is onely a power of di&s;couraging <HI>his people,</HI>
of interrupting and hindring their peace and comfort in the <HI>wor|&s;hip
and &s;ervice of the true God,</HI> which we conceive incompetible un|to
Magi&s;tracie, as any gift or donation &s;etled upon it by God.</P>
<P>His third Argument or ground of jealou&s;ie again&s;t the <HI>way</HI> of his
great Conte&s;tation,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 44.</NOTE> is, that <HI>it appears to be a way that will breed infi|nite
confu&s;ions, di&s;orders, by confounding the bounds of Pari&s;hes, &amp;c.</HI>
We an&s;wer</P>
<P>1. That Phy&s;icians &s;eldome complain of &s;ickly times; nor Mil|lars
of tho&s;e that bring grie&s;t to their mills. The old &s;aying was,
<HI>De morbo gaudet medicus.</HI> It is &s;trange to me that Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> &s;hould
thus prevaricate with his profe&s;&s;ion. But it may be this argument
is figurative, and cat-antiphra&s;ticall: And &s;o, by <HI>confu&s;ions, di&s;or|ders,
&amp;c.</HI> he means, peace, unitie and concord among&s;t men,
whereby <HI>confu&s;ions, di&s;orders,</HI> and con&s;equently &s;uits at Law, will be
prevented and cut off. And the truth is that &s;uch peace, unitie, and
concord among&s;t men, whereby &s;uch unchri&s;tian mi&s;chiefes and
mi&s;eries as the&s;e, may in ordinary way of providence be prevented,
is the genuine and naturall product of this <HI>way,</HI> and a fruit that is
daily gathered from it by many.</P>
<P>2. Whereas he chargeth this <HI>way,</HI> with <HI>confounding the bounds of
Pari&s;hes,</HI> and in his margent cites <HI>p.</HI> 38. to 40. of my two Sermons,
for the ju&s;tification of this charge; the truth is, that both charge
and ju&s;tification may go together, and &s;erve in the Forlorne hope,
having neither rea&s;on nor truth to &s;econd either. For 1. the <HI>way</HI>
<PB N="52" REF="31">
he &s;peaks of, intermeddles not with, offers no violence <HI>to the bounds
of Pari&s;hes</HI> onely it thinks it equall that <HI>the bounds of Pari&s;hes</HI> &s;hould
not offer violence, or be <HI>hou&s;es of bondage</HI>  unto the con&s;ciences of the
Saints, nor be as barres of iron again&s;t them in the way of their
comfort, and &s;pirituall edification. 2. Whereas I am &s;ub-pena'd
for a witne&s;&s;e again&s;t this <HI>way,</HI> touching the crime objected, I meane
of tre&s;pa&s;&s;ing upon the <HI>bounds of Pari&s;hes.</HI> May an&s;wer is, that the
printed copie of tho&s;e Sermons of mine, which I have, hath <HI>ne gry
quidem,</HI> either in <HI>pag.</HI> 38, 39, or 40. of any &s;uch matter: nor hath it
any where el&s;e, any page, pa&s;&s;age, &s;entence, line, word, &s;yllable, let|ter,
point, or tittle, amounting to the import of &s;uch a charge.</P>
<P>3. Whereas his pen &s;pits this black reproach in the face of <HI>Inde|pendencie,</HI>
that it is <HI>a Government incon&s;i&s;tent with Royaltie and the ci|vill
Government;</HI> My an&s;wer is, that look in what degree this accu|&s;ation
and charge would be weighty and &s;ore, in ca&s;e it could be
prov'd; in the &s;ame degree it is light and contemptible, through a
deficiencie of all, and all manner of proofe, or colour of proofe,
what&s;oever. The Roman Empire lo&s;t nothing of her beautie,
&s;trength, or intere&s;t, by the Churches of Chri&s;t practi&s;ing this Go|vernment
in &s;everall places within the bounds and territories of it.
If it &s;u&s;tained lo&s;&s;e in any of the&s;e, by occa&s;ion of this Government,
it was not becau&s;e of their toleration of, but their oppo&s;ition
to it.</P>
<P>4. Nor is this charge, that <HI>it giveth way to every &s;ect to choo&s;e Mi|ni&s;ters,
erect Churches of their owne without controule,</HI> of any better
commendation in point of truth, then the former. For it giveth
way to no <HI>&s;ect</HI> what&s;oever <HI>without controule;</HI> it reproves, oppugns,
cen&s;ures, and condemns &s;ects and &s;ectaries of all &s;orts; &s;o far is it
from granting allowance to them, to <HI>choo&s;e Mini&s;ters, and erect
Churches, without controule.</HI> Indeed it knows no authoritie or com|mi&s;&s;ion
which it hath from God, to countenance the <HI>controulement</HI>
of the civill &s;word again&s;t &s;uch per&s;ons, who in the &s;implicitie (not
convicted ob&s;tinacy) of their hearts, are mi&s;led in matters of Reli|gion:
it trembles to make mi&s;pri&s;ions in things of that difficult,
high, and rare attainment, as the acknowledgement of &s;upernatu|rall
truth is in matters of Religion, and the things of God, to be
matter either of confi&s;cation of goods, impri&s;onment, bani&s;hment,
death, unto men: though it denies not a power of re&s;traint from
<PB N="53" REF="31">
oppo&s;ing the received faith, with publick di&s;turbance and of|fence.</P>
<P>5. <HI>Whereas in An&s;wer to &s;omewhat argued by me to make the
innocency of</HI> Independencie <HI>touching matter of</HI> Divi&s;ions, as cleare as
the noone day, <HI>he repones thus; That</HI> tho&s;e who in point of con&s;cience
cannot communicate or agree together in one Church, will never que&s;tio|le&s;&s;e
accord well together in one familie, bed, Pari&s;h, Kingdome, as expe|rience
manife&s;ts; <HI>I an&s;wer,</HI></P>
<P>1. That <HI>experience manife&s;ts</HI> the quite contrary. How many
Mini&s;ters of the <HI>Presbyterian</HI> judgement are there in the Kingdome,
yea, in and about the Citie, that hold communion in all deare and
Chri&s;tian re&s;pects, and terms of love and friend&s;hip, with many
called <HI>Independent,</HI> and the&s;e againe with them? The difference in
judgement between them in point of Church-Government, in
&s;ome rather increa&s;ing, then dimini&s;hing or di&s;&s;olving their fami|liaritie
and acquaintance. How oft doth Mr. <HI>Edwards</HI> him&s;elf in
his <HI>Antapologie,</HI> acknowledge his Apologi&s;ts to be dearly and deep|ly
intere&s;&s;ed in the love and care of many of his judgement<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Many god|ly and learned Mini&s;ters&mdash;even &s;uch as are their good friends, &amp; te~|der enough of them, &amp;c <HI>p.</HI> 3. their friends &amp; familiars, <HI>p.</HI> 4. That all the godly Mini|&s;ters of Citie and Countrey &s;hould carrie them&s;elvs to|wards you w^t^h love, re&s;pect, fairne&s;s, bro|therly kindnes &amp;c. <HI>Et max:</HI> The Mini&s;ters courted them by all waies of re&s;pect &amp; oft high enter|tainment of them inloving &s;peech, friend|ly cou~tenance, familiar co~ver &s;ing, &amp;c. <HI>p.</HI> 226</NOTE>?
Yea, he commends his own love and affections towards them,
once and twice and the third time al&s;o<NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">I love their per&s;ons &amp; va|lue them as Brethren, yea, &s;ome of them above Bre|thren, and be|&s;ides that love I bear to them as Saints, I have a per&s;o|nall love, and a particular love of friend|&s;hip to &s;ome of them, &amp;c. <HI>Epi&s;t.</HI> p. 7.</NOTE>. How many families are
there in and about the Citie, wherein the re&s;pective members injoy
them&s;elves together with much Chri&s;tian &s;weetne&s;&s;e and peace,
notwith&s;tanding relations to &s;everall Pa&s;tors &amp; Churches among
them? I had it from a per&s;on worthy credit in a greater matter,
that a friend of his (a man al&s;o very well knowne to my &s;elf, and
knowne for a man both of hone&s;ty and under&s;tanding) related to
him; how that having but foure per&s;ons in his familie, (him&s;elf be|ing
one of the foure) and every of the&s;e con&s;tantly repairing to a
different Congregation and Mini&s;tery, yet liv'd very peaceably,
comfortably, and contentedly together in the &s;ame hou&s;e. Yea,
and that he moreover added; that except he &s;hould grant this li|bertie
to the re&s;t re&s;pectively, he could not expect that good accord
and agreement with them and between them in his family, which
now he found.</P>
<P>Yea, 2. <HI>Experience manife&s;ts</HI> yet more then this; <HI>viz.</HI> that not
onely per&s;ons di&s;&s;enting in point of Church-Government, being
otherwi&s;e united in the profe&s;&s;ion of the &s;ame pure, Orthodox and
undefiled Religion; but that per&s;ons di&s;&s;enting in the very &s;ub|&s;tantialls
<PB N="52" REF="32">
<GAP DESC="duplicate" EXTENT="1 page">
<PB N="53" REF="32">
<GAP DESC="duplicate" EXTENT="1 page">
<PB N="54" REF="33">
of their re&s;pective Religions, doe lovingly and peaceably
combine and live together, not onely in the &s;ame State or King|dome,
but even in the &s;ame Citie, yea, in the &s;ame &s;treet or neigh|bour-hood;
and are mutually helpfull and &s;erviceable one to ano|ther
in all matters of civill courte&s;ie, often meet, eat and drink to|gether;
yea, and are all of one heart and of one mind, in promo|ting
and maintaining the peace and &s;afety of the State where they
live. I have received every whit as much as this in report from
per&s;ons of good e&s;teem and worth, who have been ey-witne&s;&s;es
and diligent ob&s;ervers of &s;uch things, both in the <HI>Low-Countries</HI>
and in <HI>France.</HI></P>
<P>Yea, 3. (that which is yet more then all this) the Scripture it
&s;elf implies, that per&s;ons, not onely di&s;tanced in their judgements
about Church-Government, but about the God-head of Chri&s;t,
and truth of the true and Chri&s;tian Religion, may not onely ac|cord
and agree together in one and the &s;ame State, as <HI>Abraham</HI> and
his people did with the <HI>Amorites,</HI> Gen. 14. 13. with the <HI>Phili&s;tims</HI>
at <HI>Gerar,</HI> Gen. 20. 1. with the <HI>AEgyptians,</HI> Gen. 12. 10. &amp;c. Chri&s;ti|ans
with Pagan Idolaters, 1 <HI>Cor.</HI> 10. 27. but in the one and the
&s;ame <HI>familie,</HI> yea, and <HI>hed</HI> al&s;o, 1 <HI>Cor. 7. 12, 13. 1. Pet.</HI> 3. 1. &amp;c.</P>
<P>4. And la&s;tly, Not onely <HI>experience,</HI> but even Rea&s;on it &s;elf <HI>mani|fe&s;ts,</HI>
that <HI>tho&s;e who cannot in point of con&s;cience communicate and agree
together in one Church, may yet very well accord together, in one fami|lie,
bed, Pari&s;h, Kingdome:</HI> yea, evident it is, that they, <HI>who cannot in
point of con&s;cience agree together in one Church,</HI> cannot po&s;&s;ibly (or
lightly at lea&s;t) but <HI>agree together in familie, Pari&s;h, bed, Kingdome.</HI>
For if it be <HI>con&s;cience</HI> that &s;ets them at a di&s;tance in matter of
Church-government, it mu&s;t needs unite them in the performance
of all &s;uch duties, which are cleerly and manife&s;tly &s;uch. He that
out of <HI>con&s;cience</HI> ab&s;tains from any practi&s;e, as not being &s;atisfied in
his judgement touching the lawfulne&s;&s;e thereof; cannot but be
ready and willing to practi&s;e every &s;uch dutie, of the nece&s;&s;itie
where of he &s;tands convinced, either by the light of nature, or by
the Word of God; <HI>Con&s;cience</HI> being unpartiall between the negative
and the affirmative, and equally re&s;pecting its own comfort and
peace in both. Now it is no wayes probable, (if po&s;&s;ible) that &s;uch
as are truly <HI>con&s;cientious</HI> in point of Church-Government, &s;hould
be ignorant of &s;uch duties required of them by God in the foure
<PB N="55" REF="33">
mentioned relations, <HI>family, pari&s;h, bed, kingdome,</HI> the practi&s;e and
performance whereof will &s;trongly and &s;weetly unite and accord
them in the &s;aid Relations, re&s;pectively. All the&s;e things con&s;ider|ed,
I cannot wonder a little, that the Gentleman, who makes &s;o
many <HI>Que&s;tions,</HI> &s;hould make that <HI>Que&s;tionle&s;&s;e</HI> in the negative,
which is &s;o palpably plain and <HI>que&s;tionle&s;&s;e</HI> in the affirmative. But</P>
<P>6. Whereas I onely argue and demon&s;trate, that the repairing
of per&s;ons out of &s;everall Pari&s;hes to one and the &s;ame Mini&s;tery
or Pa&s;tor, needs be no more trouble or di&s;turbance, then the like
repair of per&s;ons of the re&s;pective Companies in London, to one
and the &s;ame Hall; he repre&s;ents this demon&s;tration of mine, as if
I thereby intended to prove or ju&s;tifie the Congregationall Go|vernment
&s;imply, and accordingly in&s;i&s;ts upon 3 differences be|tween
the one and the other. I know nothing but that he might
ea&s;ily have found out not onely 3, but 23 differences, and have ar|gued
them all with as much pertinencie to his purpo&s;e, as he hath
done the three. For we do not urge the analogie of the Govern|ment
of Companies of Corporations in all the relations or appur|tenances
belonging to it, as any ground or proof of the Congre|gationall
Government; we are better provided in this kind, then
&s;o: we onely urge the particular mentioned, to accommodate and
heal the pretended offen&s;ivene&s;&s;e in the like, in this Government.
Notwith&s;tanding let us briefly &s;ee what advantage he hath gotten
again&s;t the Independent <HI>way,</HI> by his 3 <HI>great differences</HI> found <HI>be|tween
&s;everall Trades and Hals</HI> in one <HI>Citie, Pari&s;h, Kingdom, and &s;e|verall
forms of Church-Government.</HI> As to the fir&s;t we an&s;wer.</P>
<P>1. That it is not &s;o <HI>without di&s;pute,</HI> as he makes it, whether <HI>all
Trades, Societies, bold one another lawfull, u&s;efull, nece&s;&s;arie, agreeable
to the Laws of God, and the Realme.</HI> I know both &s;ome <HI>Trades,</HI> yea
and &s;ome <HI>Societies</HI> too in London, much que&s;tioned upon all, or
mo&s;t of the&s;e particulars. But pa&s;&s;e we this. Whereas he infers up|on
it, that <HI>&s;o they breed no contrarietie of opinions or di&s;affections, &amp;c.</HI>
We an&s;wer.</P>
<P>2. That certainly <HI>experience</HI> doth not <HI>manife&s;t</HI> this Contentions,
differences, <HI>di&s;affections,</HI> yea and Law-&s;uits &s;ometimes betweene
Trades and Trades, Societies and Societies, are known occurren|ces
in and about the Citie. Whereas he addes: that <HI>each different
Church deems the other unlawfull, &s;o as they cannot with &s;afe con&s;cience
<PB N="56" REF="34">
joyn or communicate together, and thereupon &s;ever one from another;</HI> We
an&s;wer.</P>
<P>3. That according to Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> notion of Church-Govern|ment,
it is not nece&s;&s;arie that <HI>each different Church &s;hould judge the
other unlawfull, &amp;c.</HI> becau&s;e he &s;uppo&s;eth, that the Scripture is &s;o
indulgent in this behalf, as to leave roome enough for variety of
forms of this Government. So that if he will but give others leave
to be of his judgement, this rea&s;oning of his fals to the ground.
But</P>
<P>Fourthly (and la&s;tly) Though <HI>each different Church do deem the
other unlawfull, and &s;o cannot with &s;afe con&s;cience communicate toge|ther
in Church-&s;hip;</HI> yet this hinders not, but that they may judge
and think as well one of anothers per&s;ons (and con&s;equently love
and affect one another, and combine together as affectionately,)
as per&s;ons of <HI>&s;everall Trades and Societies</HI> do; who have no more
communion together in their re&s;pective <HI>Trades,</HI> then different
Churches have in their re&s;pective <HI>Churches;</HI> yea, there is far better
ground (as hath been partly touched already) why different
Churches, though <HI>they deemeach other unlawfull,</HI> &s;hould yet think
better of, yea and love the re&s;pective members each of other, then
there is, that per&s;ons of <HI>&s;everall Trades,</HI> or members of <HI>&s;everall</HI> civill
<HI>Societies,</HI> &s;hould do either the one or the other among them|&s;elves.</P>
<P>To his &s;econd difference,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 45.</NOTE> I an&s;wer,</P>
<P>1. That <HI>experience manife&s;ts</HI> the contrary to what he here af|firms,
<HI>viz.</HI> that the <HI>&s;ubordination or &s;ubjection of &s;everall Trades, So|cieties,
to the whole Corporation, Parliament, or &s;upreame Magi&s;trate,
doth</HI> not <HI>keep</HI> them <HI>all in peace and writie.</HI> What contentiones, quar|rels,
emulations, &s;uits among&s;t them from day to day, any &s;uch
&s;ubordination or &s;ubjection notwith&s;tanding?</P>
<P>2. <HI>Whereas by way of oppo&s;ition he addes, that</HI> Independent
Churches will be regulated, obliged onely by their own peculiar edicts,
which mu&s;t needs occa&s;ion infinite &s;chi&s;mes and di&s;orders; <HI>We an&s;wer.</HI></P>
<P>1. We wi&s;h that by way of commendation and prai&s;e in many
ca&s;es, to <HI>Parliaments, temporall Magi&s;trates, and Synods,</HI> which is
here ca&s;t upon Independent Churches by way of imputation and
charge, I mean <HI>regulation and obligement by their own peculiar edicts.</HI>
But</P>
<P><PB N="57" REF="34">
2. Whereas the charge is thus laid again&s;t the&s;e Churches, that
<HI>they will be regulated, obliged onely by their own peculiar Edicts;</HI> the
truth is, that they are every whit as willing to be <HI>regulated, obliged,
by the Edicts</HI> of any other, as by <HI>their own,</HI> alwayes provided that
they be conform to the Word, and this conformitie &s;ufficiently
proved and made known unto them. They put no difference at all
between the mind of Chri&s;t pre&s;ented unto them by others or di&s;|covered
and found out by them&s;elves. Yea and that <HI>&s;ubordination
and &s;ubjection</HI> which they all profe&s;&s;e and own to the written word
of God, is a farre more effectuall and hopefull means, to <HI>keep them
all in peace and unitie,</HI> then that <HI>&s;ubordination</HI> mentioned by Mr.
<HI>Prynne,</HI> is to keep all <HI>Trades</HI> and Societies in the &s;ame precious po|&s;ture.
Onely in this one thing the&s;e poore Independent Churches
de&s;ire <HI>Parliaments and Magi&s;trates and Synods</HI> to <HI>be mercifull unto
them,</HI> that they cannot <HI>write</HI> any of them, infallible, nor yet &s;ub|&s;cribe
unto any their injunctions or deci&s;ions in matters of Faith,
or which concern the wor&s;hip and &s;ervice of God, without retain|ing
the Scriptures for their Coun&s;ell, and advi&s;ing with them what
to do therein.</P>
<P>To his third and la&s;t difference al&s;o,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 46.</NOTE> we an&s;wer.</P>
<P>1. That he &s;aith very well, in point of truth, when he &s;aith,
that <HI>Chri&s;tians, as Chri&s;tians, are all of one and the &s;elf &s;ame &s;ociety and
profe&s;&s;ion, as tho&s;e of one trade and calling are.</HI> But this truth as yet,
is not at all con&s;cious to his intention or purpo&s;e. Therefore he
addes: <HI>therefore they &s;hould all have but one Church and Government,
as the&s;e trades have.</HI> Nor doth this, if granted, make any whit more
for the Presbyterian cau&s;e, then for the Independent: becau&s;e it
doth not follow; <HI>Chri&s;tians, as Chri&s;tians, ought all to have one and
the &s;ame Church and Government:</HI> therefore this Church and Go|vernment
ought to be Presbyterian. Take a parallel: <HI>Simeon</HI> and
<HI>Levi</HI> ought to have been Brethren: therefore they ought to have
been <HI>Brethren in iniquitie.</HI> Take another: <HI>A<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">ania<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter"></HI> and <HI>Sapphira,</HI>
being man and wife, ought to have agreed together: therefore they
ought to have agreed together <HI>to tempt the Spirit of the Lord.</HI> But</P>
<P>2. If by his <HI>one Church,</HI> he means, one and the &s;ame Catho|lique,
my&s;ticall, and invi&s;ible Church; We an&s;wer, that <HI>Chri&s;tians,
as Chri&s;tians,</HI> have all <HI>one</HI> and the &s;ame <HI>Church;</HI> in this &s;en&s;e, they
are all members of this <HI>one Church.</HI> But if he means, <HI>one and the &s;ame</HI>
<PB N="58" REF="35">
mini&s;teriall and vi&s;ible <HI>Church,</HI> we an&s;wer, by demanding, How
can this thing be? We have heard indeed of &s;ome Oecumenicall
Councels; but of Oecumenicall vi&s;ible Churches, wherein <HI>all Chri|&s;tians</HI>
&s;hould be comprehended as members, I beleeve there hath
been Oecumenicall &s;ilence unto this day.</P>
<P>3. <HI>Whereas he goeth about to</HI> &s;et the compari&s;on (<HI>of his own
making</HI>) upright, by &s;tating it thus: If &s;ome of one Fraternitie in Lon|don
(&s;uppo&s;e Merchant-t tylors, Sadlers, &amp;c.) &s;hould fall out among
them&s;elves, and one would have one form of Government, another ano|ther,
and thereupon divide them&s;elves into &s;everall conventicles and pety
meetings in corners, not at their common Hall, and one chu&s;e one Govern|ment
or Ma&s;ter, another another, and &s;o &s;ever the Company, and continue
Independent, this (no doubt) would prove an apparent &s;chi&s;me and &s;emi|nary
of infinite divi&s;ions, to the di&s;traction, de&s;truction of the whole
Company and Fraternitie; <HI>and then addes,</HI> This is the true State of
your Independencie: <HI>We an&s;wer, that</HI> the compari&s;on thus &s;tated <HI>holds
no proportion or corre&s;pondence with the</HI> State of Independencie.
<HI>For,</HI></P>
<P>1. That number of Chri&s;tians which pleads for <HI>Independencie</HI>
(&s;o called) is not the whole Socieitie of Chri&s;tians (nor indeed any
confiderable part thereof, in re&s;pect of number) as that <HI>Fraternitie
of Merchant-tayloes or Sadlers</HI> the compari&s;on &s;peaks of, is therein
&s;uppo&s;ed to be the whole Societie of &s;uch a Company. Therefore
to &s;et Mr. <HI>Prynnes compari&s;on upright,</HI> and make it agree with <HI>the
State of Independencie,</HI> in this particular, <HI>it mu&s;t be &s;tated thus;</HI> Sup|po&s;e
two or three members of a numerous and va&s;t companie, con|&s;i&s;ting
(it may be) of ten or twenty thou&s;and per&s;ons, &s;hould differ
from the re&s;t of the Societie in &s;ome things about their Govern|ment,
and hereupon &s;hould withdraw them&s;elvs from that Society,
and &s;eek incorporation el&s;ewhere; would &s;uch a di&s;&s;ent or with|drawing
of &s;o few from among&s;t &s;o many, any waies threaten the
<HI>di&s;traction,</HI> much le&s;&s;e the <HI>de&s;truction of the whole Company?</HI></P>
<P>2. Suppo&s;e a con&s;iderable part of a Company, &s;hould out of a
con&s;cientious di&s;like of the carriage of things in the Government
of the body withdraw them&s;elves, and refu&s;e &s;ubjection to this Go|vernment
&s;o ordered and admini&s;tred; though in probabilitie this
act of theirs may occa&s;ion &s;ome <HI>di&s;traction</HI> or di&s;turbance in the
re&s;t of the body for a &s;ea&s;on; yet &s;uppo&s;ing it done upon &s;ub&s;tan|tiall
<PB N="59" REF="35">
and due grounds, it may be &s;o farre bringing <HI>de&s;truction</HI>
to this body, that very po&s;&s;ibly it may occa&s;ion the Reformation
and amendment of tho&s;e things that were unju&s;t in this Govern|ment,
(and con&s;equently de&s;tructive to the bodie) and &s;o become
a means of the pre&s;ervation of it from <HI>de&s;truction. And this is the true
&s;tate of our Independencie.</HI></P>
<P>3. In ca&s;e the <HI>Fraternity of Merchant-taylors in London &s;hould fall
out among&s;t them&s;elves, and one would have one form of Government,
and another another, and thereupon divide them&s;elves, &amp;c.</HI> What ever
inconvenience &s;hould, or might hereupon en&s;ue to the <HI>Company,</HI>
yet &s;till it was determined by equall and prudent Judges, who, or
which partie gave the chief occa&s;ion of the&s;e di&s;tractions and
rents; there is no rea&s;on why any one partie &s;hould fall foule upon
all the re&s;t, and give an extrajudiciall &s;entence for them&s;elves. For
any thing that God hath yet determined to the contrary, the In|dependent
partie of Chri&s;tians in the Kingdom, may be as inno|cent
(yea more innocent) of the breaches and di&s;tractions among&s;t
us in point of Church Government, them the Presbyterian. They
that call and plead for that Government which is held forth in
the Scriptures, calling and pleading for it in a regular, meek and
Chri&s;tian manner, are tho&s;e that are innocent; and tho&s;e that call
and plead for any other, or indeed for any in a violent, prepo&s;te|rous,
and unchri&s;tian manner, (light the &s;troke where it will) are
tho&s;e that are guiltie. I confe&s;&s;e that in one re&s;pect, and that of
very great con&s;equence, I could really wi&s;h that the beam were
in the eye of Independencie, and the moat in the eye of Presbyte|rie;
becau&s;e in this ca&s;e it would (I conceive) be the &s;ooner and the
more ea&s;ily plucked out. For as <HI>Au&s;tin</HI> &s;aid long &s;ince: <HI>Vitiun quod
inebriat multitudinem, examinis amittit veritatem.</HI> A &s;in or error
that hath taken the heads and hearts of a multitude, is hardly
curable<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Gravis enim e&s;t, &amp; pe|riculo&s;us error in plurimis: &amp; multorum lap|&s;us, etiam&s;i &s;e intelligat, ex|urgend pudo|re, authorita|tem &s;ibi prae&s;u|mit, ex numero habens hoc im|pudentiae, ut quod errat, in|telligentia~ e&s;&s;e veritatis a&s;&s;e|rat, d&ugrave;m minus error is e&s;&s;e ex|i&s;timatur in multu. Hil. l. 6.</NOTE> An error in a few, is but as &s;moke, it may be ap|proach'd
unto, handled, and dealt with, without danger: but in
many it becomes a flame of fire; and he that attempts the quench|ing
of it, had need <HI>purifie</HI> him&s;elf, as men at Sea do, when they &s;ee
<HI>the breakings of Leviathan,</HI> and look for nothing but pre&s;ent
death. <HI>Job.</HI> 41. 25.</P>
<P>4. In ca&s;e any parcell or le&s;&s;e number of the <HI>Company of Mer|chant-taylors
in London,</HI> could not with a good con&s;cience continue
<PB N="60" REF="36">
their union and incorporation with the Societie, apprehending
&s;ome things &s;infull among&s;t them, of the &s;infulne&s;&s;e whereof they
conceive an unavoidable nece&s;&s;itie that them&s;elves mu&s;t be parta|kers,
while&s;t they continue their relation to the Company, the
re&s;t of the Company all this while re&s;enting no evill in the things
&s;tumbled at by tho&s;e other, and &s;o are able to keep on their way
without &s;cruple; in this ca&s;e it is &s;o farre from being a thing de|&s;tructive
to this <HI>Company,</HI> that the partie &s;o &s;crupul'd, &s;hould with|draw,
that it is the be&s;t accommodation, thing &s;tanding as they
do, whereof they are capable; it being certain that no Company
or Societie what&s;oever but &s;uffers lo&s;&s;e and di&s;advantage by union
and communion with &s;uch members, who walk with gain&s;aying
judgements, and polluted con&s;ciences with them. And this al&s;o
<HI>is the true State of Independencie.</HI> The Great Communitie and So|cietie
of Chri&s;tians in the Kingdom, &s;uffer farre le&s;&s;e by the Inde|pendents
withdrawing of them&s;elves from the Presbyterian Go|vernment,
their judgements in this point &s;tanding as they do, then
they would by their joyning with them therein. Their joyning
with them under the reclamation of their judgements and con&s;ci|eaces,
would but di&s;accommodate both parties; whereas their
refu&s;all in this kind, convenienceth both; and &s;o hath the true
character of a legitimate contract or bargain between man and
man, which &s;till ought to be &s;o conditioned, that both parties
may be bettered in their conditions by it. Therefore Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> hath
not <HI>&s;et the compari&s;on upright</HI> to the point in hand.</P>
<P>5. And la&s;tly, There is no arguing in Divinitie, either from
conveniences or inconveniences, from di&s;turbances or from peace,
from life or from death, again&s;t the nece&s;&s;itie of avoiding &s;in, and
keeping a good and a cleere con&s;cience towards God. Therefore
&s;uppo&s;ing <HI>that the Company of Merchant-taylors in London,</HI> would by
&s;uch fractions and divi&s;ions among&s;t the members thereof, as are
pre&s;ented in Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> compari&s;on, be in danger of ruine and
di&s;&s;olution; yet better were it that this ruine &amp; di&s;&s;olution &s;hould
come upon it, then that God &s;hould be di&s;honoured by the lea&s;t
&s;in, or the meane&s;t &s;oule indangered, for the pre&s;evation of it<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Cum tur|pis e&s;t medici|na, &s;anari pu|deat.</NOTE>.
In like manner, it is more agreeable to the mind of God, and to all
principles of Chri&s;tianitie, that even the greate&s;t numbers and
multitudes of Chri&s;tians &s;hould rather &s;uffer, though very deep,
<PB N="61" REF="36">
in their externall conveniences, then that the lea&s;t &s;in &s;hould be
committed by the meane&s;t of them, for their accommodation.
And this likewi&s;e is <HI>the true &s;tate</HI> of things between <HI>our Independency,</HI>
and M^r. <HI>Prynnes Presbyterie.</HI> Many other particulars there are,
wherein it might be made further to appeare, how ill his <HI>compari|&s;on</HI>
comports with the ca&s;e and <HI>&s;tate of Independencie:</HI> but <HI>enough</HI>
(as the Proverb &s;aith) <HI>is as good as a fea&s;t.</HI></P>
<P>To what he &s;ubjoyns concerning <HI>my pre&s;ent ca&s;e in my own Pari&s;h,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 47.</NOTE>
<HI>mi&s;erably divided, di&s;ordered by my Independent way, &amp;c.</HI> I have an|&s;wered
in part in my <HI>Innocencies Triumph.</HI> I here adde</P>
<P>1. <HI>That</HI> my Pari&s;h <HI>is no otherwi&s;e</HI> divided, di&s;ordered, by my In|dependent
way, <HI>then the world commonly is by the Go&s;pel, when
it cometh in power among&s;t the inhabitants thereof.</HI> Think not
(<HI>&s;aith our Saviour</HI>) that I am come to &s;end peace on Earth: I came not
to &s;end peace, but a &s;word. For I am come to &s;et a man at variance again&s;t
his Father, and the daughter again&s;t the another, and the daughter-in-law
again&s;t her mother-in-low: And a mans foes &s;hall be they of his owne
hou&s;hold, <HI>Mat.</HI> 10. 34, 35, 36.</P>
<P>2. It was not <HI>my Independent way,</HI> (as Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> affirmeth) but
the oppo&s;ition to it, that cau&s;ed tho&s;e <HI>divi&s;ions, di&s;orders,</HI> (if any
&s;uch be) <HI>in my Pari&s;h:</HI> If the partie which now oppo&s;eth, had been
willing, either to have complied with him whom they acknowled|ged
for their Pa&s;tor, and the re&s;t of their Brethren, who &s;ubmit|ted
them&s;elves unto him in this <HI>way;</HI> or el&s;e patiently to have wai|ted
upon God, untill he &s;hould plea&s;e to reveale the goodne&s;&s;e of
the <HI>way</HI> unto them, in ca&s;e they &s;aw no &s;ufficient ground at the pre|&s;ent,
for their &s;ubmi&s;&s;ion in this kind (as many of the be&s;t of them
have done hitherto:) there had been no place for any <HI>divi&s;ion or
di&s;order</HI> among&s;t them. And whether it be not more fitting, for a
people to follow their Pa&s;tor, giving them &s;ub&s;tantiall grounds and
rea&s;ons for that way wherein he de&s;ires to lead them; then for a
Pa&s;tor to follow his people in &s;uch a way, whereof they neither
give, nor (I verily beleeve) can give, any account like men, I leave
to Mr. <HI>Prynne,</HI> and all unpartiall Judges, to determine.</P>
<P>3. (And la&s;tly) Nothing is more regular, or of more con&s;tant
ob&s;ervation in all ages, then for troubles, commotions, and di&s;tur|bances,
to attend for a while, any con&s;iderable mutation or change,
e&s;pecially, for the better, either made, or attempted to be made,
<PB N="62" REF="37">
in any State or Societie of men what&s;oever. <HI>Calvin</HI> in his Preface
before his <HI>In&s;titutions,</HI> dedicated to the King of <HI>France,</HI> complains
<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">po&s;tr<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">m&ograve; no~ &s;atis ca~ dide fa|c<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">u~t, <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">u~ invid. o&s;e co~memora~t, qua~tas turbas, tumultus, con|tentiones &s;ecu~ traxer<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">t no&s;trae Doctrinae prae|dicatio, et quos nunc in multis fruct&abus; crat. Na~ horu~ malorum culpa indign&egrave; in ip&s;a derivatur, quae in Satanae militia~ torque|r<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter"> debuerat.
Et mox: Haec certi&s;sima et in|prim<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="2 letters"> fidelis no tanqu&acirc; di&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="2 letters">nt tur&s;verbu~ &agrave; vi nu~) &agrave; medacib&abus; Dactrinis, quae &s;efacile produ~t dum aequis on<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">|niu~ aurib&abus; re|cipiuntur, &amp; &agrave; mu~do plaude~|te aud<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">untur.</NOTE> of the indirect and unworthy dealings of his adver&s;aries, who
charged the <HI>preaching of the Doctrine of the Go&s;pel,</HI> with being the
cau&s;e of I know not <HI>what troubles, tumults, and contentions; Where|as
&s;uch things as the&s;e, &s;hould have been charged upon the Militia or A|gents
of the Devill.</HI> And then addes this memorable &s;aying: <HI>E&s;t hic
divini verbi quidam qua&s;i genius, ut nunquam emergat, quieto ac dor|miente
Satana: It is (as it were) the lot and de&s;tinie of the word of
God, never to find Satan in a good mood, or a&s;leep, when it comes abroad
into the world:</HI> in the following words, making this <HI>a mo&s;t certaine
and faithfull mark or &s;igne, whereby it is di&s;cern'd from fal&s;e Doctrines,
which</HI> (&s;aith he) <HI>&s;oone bewray them&s;elves by this,</HI> that the <HI>world ap|plauds
them in the hearing, and gives them intertainment in a po&s;ture of
fairne&s;&s;e, favour, and peace.</HI> What &s;torms, tempe&s;ts, whirle-winds
of troubles, tumults, commotions, did Satan and his auxiliaries
rai&s;e in all places and parts in the world<NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">Lutherus velu<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="2 letters"> molum Eridis mi&s;it in mu~dum, cujus nuliam omnin&ograve; part&egrave; non tur|ba<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">a~ video. E|ra&s;m. l. 14. ep. 7.</NOTE>, where&s;oever <HI>Luthers</HI>
Doctrine and Reformation did but touch, to render them the ha|tred
and indignation of the world? Yea, and <HI>Luther</HI> him&s;elf doub|ted
not to rai&s;e it to a generall maxime or ob&s;ervation, that <HI>Godly
men mu&s;t beare the name &amp; title of men that are &s;editious, &s;chi&s;maticall,
and Authors of infinite evills and troubles in the world.</HI><NOTE N="c" PLACE="marg">Pios hoc no|men &amp; titulum in mundo opor|tet gerere, qu&ograve;d &s;editio&s;iac &s;chi&s;|matici ac infi|nitoru~ maloru~ authores &s;unt Luth. in Gal. 5.</NOTE> That great
and ble&s;&s;ed alteration and change that God made in the State of
Religion, and things of his wor&s;hip, by the &s;ending of Je&s;us Chri&s;t
into the world, and the preaching of the Go&s;pel, is called the
<HI>&s;haking of the Heavens and the Earth</HI><NOTE N="d" PLACE="marg">Hab. 2. 21. with Heb. 12. 26, 27.</NOTE>, becau&s;e of the great con|cu&s;&s;ions,
troubles, di&s;tractions, rents, and divi&s;ions, in the great con|cu&s;&s;ions,
troubles, di&s;tractions, rents, and divi&s;ions, in the world,
which did (and doe yet daily) accompany them, by rea&s;on of the
pride, ignorance, and unbeliefe of tho&s;e which oppo&s;e either the
one or the other. And as the Doctrine of the Go&s;pel in the gene|rall,
never comes among&s;t any people in excellencie and power,
but that it &s;mites the foundations of that unitie and peace wherein
it finds them, makes breaches upon them, renting one part of them
from another, upon which di&s;contents and <HI>di&s;orders</HI> follow like the
waves of the Sea; in like manner, every con&s;iderable piece or branch
of the Go&s;pel, in the fir&s;t di&s;covery and breaking out of it, even in
&s;uch places, and among &s;uch per&s;ons, where and among&s;t whom
the Doctrine of the Go&s;pel in the <HI>generall</HI> hath been of a long time
<PB N="63" REF="37">
profe&s;&s;ed, by rea&s;on of the &s;trangene&s;&s;e of it, and that contrarietie
and cro&s;&s;ene&s;&s;e which it beares to the judgements and wills of ma|ny,
mu&s;t needs be offen&s;ive and di&s;ta&s;tefull unto them, and &s;o occa|&s;ion
<HI>di&s;tractions, di&s;orders, di&s;contents.</HI> So that M^r. <HI>Prynne</HI> by repre|&s;enting
<HI>my Pari&s;h as divided, di&s;ordered by my Independent way,</HI> hath ra|ther
given te&s;timony to the truth and Evangelicalne&s;&s;e of it, then
brought any argument to di&s;prove either. And to &s;ay (as he doth
a few lines after) that <HI>he needs no other evidence to prove it a &s;chi&s;ma|ticall
by-path, and &s;o no way of Chri&s;t, then the &s;chi&s;mes and di&s;cords
which it hath rai&s;ed in other Pari&s;hes,</HI> is ju&s;t &s;uch a &s;aying and re&s;olu|tion,
as that of the High Prie&s;t again&s;t our Saviour, <HI>when he rent
his cloaths, and &s;aid, He hath &s;poken bla&s;phemie: What further need have
we of Witne&s;&s;es</HI><NOTE N="*" PLACE="marg">Mat. <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">6. 6, 5</NOTE>? The bla&s;phemie of Chri&s;t, and the guiltine&s;&s;e
of <HI>Independencie</HI> touching the matter of <HI>divi&s;ion and di&s;order,</HI> are
&s;ins much of the &s;ame order and calculation.</P>
<P>To his fourth and la&s;t rea&s;on,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 48.</NOTE> which renders him a man of jea|lou&s;ie
again&s;t the way of <HI>Independencie,</HI> and prevailes with him &s;o
farre, that he <HI>cannot</HI> (as he &s;aith) <HI>think it a Way of Chri&s;t;</HI> wee
An&s;wer.</P>
<P>1. That this way is no <HI>Pioner or underminer of Parliamentarie
Authoritie:</HI> nor hath Mr. <HI>Prynne found</HI> it, nor ever &s;hall <HI>find</HI> it &s;uch:
the principles of this <HI>way</HI> being none other then what are laid in
the Scriptures, unpo&s;&s;ible it is, that it &s;hould <HI>de&s;troy,</HI> or pull downe
any thing, which they <HI>build up.</HI> Therefore if Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> hath ought
in this kind again&s;t any of the &s;ons of this <HI>way,</HI> let him implead
the&s;e in a lawfull triall, and &s;pare not; but if for their &s;akes he will
needs bla&s;pheme the <HI>way,</HI> he will open a dore of example very ef|fectuall
for tho&s;e that are oppo&s;ite to his <HI>way</HI> of <HI>Presbyterie,</HI> to heap
&s;hame, infamie and reproach upon the head thereof without end;
(yea, and for tho&s;e al&s;o that are enemies to Chri&s;tian Religion,
to render that as hatefull, wicked, vile in the eyes of men, as them|&s;elves
can de&s;ire it &s;hould be e&s;teemed). If all the errors and mi&s;|pri&s;ions
found in the writings of <HI>Presbyteriall men,</HI> &s;hould be charg|ed
upon the <HI>way</HI> of <HI>Presbyterie,</HI> as the Authore&s;&s;e and Foundre&s;&s;e of
them, &s;he would appeare ten times more erroneous and deformed,
then her <HI>Independent</HI> adver&s;aries are yet willing to judge or con|ceive
her to be.</P>
<P>2. For the Sons or <HI>Patrons</HI> of <HI>this way</HI> (as Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> plea&s;eth to
<PB N="64" REF="38">
term them) I verily beleeve, that there is none of them all, but are
willing, ready and chearfull to inve&s;t <HI>Parliaments</HI> with as full, high,
and compleat a power and Authoritie, as are by any, by all the
rules and principles, either of rea&s;on, or Religion, competible un|to
men. If Mr. <HI>Prynne,</HI> or any other of the <HI>Presbyterian way,</HI> con|ceive
that in times of <HI>Parliaments,</HI> when they apprehend them like
to be for them, they may and ought to &s;ay, that <HI>Gods are come down
to us in the likene&s;&s;e of men</HI><NOTE N="*" PLACE="marg">Act. 14. 11.</NOTE>; we confe&s;&s;e, that we cannot (our
rea&s;on, our Religion will not beare it at our hands) &s;ub&s;cribe any
&s;uch <HI>Apotheo&s;ie.</HI> But let him and his, fir&s;t &s;urvey the territories, pa|trimonie,
and heritance of Heaven, the royalties and prerogative
of the mo&s;t high God, and of the Lord Je&s;us Chri&s;t, ble&s;&s;ed for e|ver,
and &s;et them out by the line and rule either of rea&s;on, or Reli|gion;
and look what <HI>power, Authoritie, Juri&s;diction</HI> &s;oever, &s;hall be
found &s;ituate, lying and being without the compa&s;&s;e of this <HI>line,</HI>
no waies enterfeering with tho&s;e that are within, wee all unani|mou&s;ly,
univer&s;ally profe&s;&s;e, that <HI>incunctanter,</HI> and with both our
hands we will ca&s;t and heap it upon the <HI>Parliament,</HI> asking no fur|ther
que&s;tion for con&s;cience &s;ake. Therefore whereas he challeng|eth
this <HI>way,</HI> for <HI>deve&s;ting Parliaments of all manner of Juri&s;diction in
matters of Religion and Church-Government;</HI> we an&s;wer,</P>
<P>3. That neither this <HI>way,</HI> nor the Patrons of it, <HI>deve&s;t</HI> them of
any, or any <HI>manner of Authoritie</HI> in what <HI>matters</HI> &s;oever, unto which
Mr. <HI>Prynne,</HI> or any other Ma&s;ter of the <HI>Presbyterian way,</HI> is able,
<HI>Salvo jure coeli,</HI> to entitle them. For <HI>juri&s;diction in matters of Reli|gion
and Church-Government,</HI> we willingly give unto them the &s;ame
line, mea&s;ure, and proportion herein to the full, which him&s;elf a&s;|&s;erteth
unto them from the examples of tho&s;e Kings and Princes,
<HI>Cyrus, Artaxerxes, Darius, &amp;c.</HI> (which he in&s;i&s;ts upon <HI>p.</HI> 20.) <HI>Who</HI>
(as he here &s;aid) <HI>enacted good and whol&s;ome Lawes, for the wor&s;hip,
honour and &s;ervice of the true God.</HI> Let him in&s;tance particularly in
any &s;uch <HI>Law,</HI> or <HI>Lawes, enacted</HI> by any of them: and (doubtle&s;&s;e)
none of us will denie the <HI>Parliament</HI> a power of <HI>enacting (exceptis
excipiendis</HI>) the like. But if Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> intent be to make Precedent
of what&s;oever was <HI>enacted</HI> or done by any, or all of the&s;e <HI>Heathen
Kings, Princes, and States,</HI> to warrant a lawfulne&s;&s;e of power in the
<HI>Parliament</HI> of <HI>enacting</HI> or <HI>doing</HI> the &s;ame, we conceive that he neither
hath, nor knows where to have any thing to ju&s;tifie &s;uch an intent.
<PB N="65" REF="38">
I tru&s;t that that <HI>Law enacted</HI> by <HI>Nebuchadnezzar</HI> and his Nobles,
<HI>Dan. 3. 6. That who&s;oever falleth not downe and wor&s;hippeth, &s;hall the
&s;ame houre be ca&s;t into the mid&s;t of a burning fiery furnace,</HI> &s;hall not
be drawne by him into precedent, for the vindication of a <HI>Par|liamentary
Juri&s;diction in matters of Religion and Church-Govern|ment.</HI></P>
<P>4. Whereas to make good his la&s;t charge again&s;t the <HI>way</HI> &s;o of|ten
&s;mitten by his pen, he referres to <HI>the pa&s;&s;age of the two Indepen|dent
Brethren recited p. 3. of his Independencie examined,</HI> adding (after
a parenthe&s;is of much untruth, there being many that have <HI>repre&s;en|ted
the way</HI> he &s;peaks of <HI>in her native colours and lineaments</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">The <HI>New England</HI> Cate|chi&s;me, called <HI>The Govern|ment of the Church,</HI> com|pos'd by Mr. <HI>Cotton,</HI> and thrice printed. <HI>A Guide unto Sion.</HI> Another &s;mall treati&s;e, butful of lear|ning, reading and &s;trength, called, <HI>Sions Prerogative Royall.</HI> The an|&s;wer of the El|ders of the &s;e|verall Chur|ches of <HI>New England</HI> to 32 que&s;tions, &s;ent &amp;c. Another An&s;wer of the &s;ame Elders to 9. other Que|&s;tions about Church Go|vernment. Mr. <HI>Thomp&s;on</HI> and Mr. <HI>Mathors</HI> an&s;wer to Mr. <HI>Charles Herles Independencie.</HI> Mr. <HI>Tho. Welds</HI> an&s;wer to Mr. <HI>W. Rathbone;</HI> be&s;ides many other Treati|&s;es publi&s;hed upon this &s;ub|ject.</NOTE>) that
<HI>I rather aggravate, then extenuate the guiltie of the &s;aid pa&s;&s;age, by my
explanation,</HI> which he there recites; I an&s;wer,</P>
<P>1. That for matter of <HI>guilt, the pa&s;&s;age referred</HI> unto, &s;tandeth as
yet, cleare, innocent, and untouch'd, as concerning any thing in
way of demerit, that hath been prov'd again&s;t it.</P>
<P>2. As concerning the <HI>explanation,</HI> that al&s;o keeps its &s;tanding,
and that upon <HI>holy ground,</HI> notwith&s;tanding all that Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI>
hath done, or attempted to doe, for the removall of it;
<Q>&mdash;manet illa, &s;u&oacute;&abque; e&s;t robore tuta.</Q>
Yea, the truth is, that in all his contra-remon&s;trance, he hath not
&s;o much as once touch'd or mentioned that which is the maine
ba&s;e or foundation of the principall conclu&s;ion managed in the
&s;aid <HI>explanation,</HI> and principally oppo&s;ed by him. The conclu&s;ion
is not that which Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> extracts from the pa&s;&s;age which he
cites, <HI>viz.</HI> that <HI>there is not onely an improbabilitie, but an ab&s;olute im|po&s;&s;ibilitie,
that the Parliament &s;hould have any power at all to enact
Lawes and Statutes in matters of Religion, Church-Government, &amp;c.</HI>
Here are words, which the <HI>explanation</HI> knows not, either in the
letter, or in the &s;pirit of them, as by name the&s;e, <HI>not onely an impro|babilitie,
an ab&s;olute impo&s;&s;ibilitie, no power at all, &amp;c.</HI> but the maine
<HI>conclu&s;ion</HI> driven at in the pa&s;&s;age, is this; <HI>That the generalitie or pro|mi&s;cuous
multitude of the Land, have no authoritie or power from Chri&s;t
to nominate or appoint, who &s;hall be the men that &s;hall order the affaires
of Chri&s;ts Kingdome, or in&s;titute the Government of his Churches.</HI> The
maine foundation or ba&s;e of rea&s;on, upon which this pillar of
Truth &s;tands in the &s;aid pa&s;&s;age, is this; Becau&s;e <HI>&s;uch an Authoritie
or power (viz.</HI> to <HI>nominate</HI> or appoint who &s;hall order the affaires
<PB N="66" REF="39">
of Chri&s;ts Kingdome, or in&s;titute the Government of his Chur|ches)
<HI>is greater then ever Chri&s;t him&s;elf had,</HI> (I meane as man, or Me|diator)
<HI>at lea&s;t then ever he exerci&s;ed,</HI> which in the &s;equell I explaine
and prove. Now then this is that which I &s;ay, that Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> in
all his long rea&s;oning again&s;t the <HI>Conclu&s;ion,</HI> doth not &s;o much as
with the lea&s;t of his fingers once touch this ground, or an&s;wer any
thing at all to it. So that he hath not as yet the lea&s;t colour or
pretence to blame me, if I be not pro&s;elyted to his opinion by
what he hath written here. And becau&s;e I de&s;ire faire and Chri|&s;tian
quarter with him for the future, I doe here promi&s;e and pro|te&s;t
in the &s;ight of God, Angels, and men, that if Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> &s;hall
at any time (God pre&s;erving my life and under&s;tanding) plainly
and &s;ub&s;tantially demon&s;trate and prove, either that <HI>the generalitie,
and promi&s;cuous multitude of the Land, have a power greater then ever
the Lord Chri&s;t him&s;elf had, or exerci&s;ed as man, or Mediator;</HI> or, <HI>that a
power to nominate and appoint whom they plea&s;e amongst men, to order
the affaires of Chri&s;ts Kingdome, and in&s;titute the Government of his
Churches, is not a power greater then ever Chri&s;t had, or at lea&s;t exerci|&s;ed,
as either man, or Mediator;</HI> I promi&s;e and prote&s;t againe, as be|fore,
that if M^r. <HI>Prynne,</HI> or any other, &s;hall at any time clearly and
fairly prove, either the one or the other of the&s;e propo&s;itions, I will
pull downe with both mine hands, what I have built up but with
one, and without any more adoe joyn judgement with Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI>
touching the power of the Civill Magi&s;trate <HI>in matters of Religion:</HI>
but till this be done, I neither &s;ee how Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> can with a good
con&s;cience per&s;i&s;t in his, nor require me to de&s;i&s;t from mine. It is
true, the Lord Chri&s;t as Mediator, had <HI>all power given him both in
Heaven and on Earth,</HI> Mat. 28. 18. That is, had the whole and in|tire
execution and tran&s;action of all his Fathers will, plea&s;ure, and
decrees, concerning all men, Angels &amp; creatures what&s;oever, put in|to
his hand &amp; power. <HI>And hath given him Authoritie TO EXECUTE
judgement al&s;o, becau&s;e he is the &s;on of man,</HI> Joh. 5. 27. But he had no
power or Authoritie given him, to carry any thing contrary to his
Fathers will or plea&s;ure. <HI>Verily, verily, I &s;ay unto you,</HI> (&s;aith he him|&s;elf,
<HI>Joh.</HI> 5. 19.) <HI>the Son can doe nothing of him&s;elf,</HI> but <HI>what he &s;eeth
the Father doe, &amp;c.</HI> So againe, <HI>ver. 30. I can doe nothing of my &s;elf&mdash;</HI>
Now then as Chri&s;t had no commi&s;&s;ion or power to give <HI>eternall
life,</HI> but onely to tho&s;e <HI>whom God</HI> the Father <HI>had given unto him,</HI>
<PB N="67" REF="39">
Joh. 17. 2. Joh. 6. 37. So neither had he any Authoritative power
to in&s;titute or appoint any other government for his Churches,
then that which he had <HI>&s;eene with,</HI> or received from <HI>his Father:</HI>
much le&s;&s;e had he any &s;uch power, to delegate unto men (lea&s;t of
all unto <HI>un&s;anctified per&s;ons and rude multitudes</HI>) a power of nomi|nating
whom they &s;hould plea&s;e, to appoint and &s;ettle what go|vernment
they pleas'd in the Churches of God. Certain I am, that
Chri&s;t never exerci&s;ed any &s;uch power as this: and therefore have
little hope of being convinc'd that he ever had it. How&s;oever, let us
give the Gentleman an unpartial hearing in what he pleads again&s;t
the afore&s;aid Conclu&s;ion.</P>
<P>1. To his former marginall Annotation (<HI>p.</HI> 22.) honoured with
a Preface made of this word,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 49.</NOTE> <HI>Note,</HI> wherein he tells me that <HI>Gama|liel
and my Text never taught me any &s;uch Anti-Parliamentary Doctrine.</HI>
I an&s;wer, that neither doth <HI>Gamaliel, nor my Text,</HI> nor any other
Text what&s;oever in Scripture, teach Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> to call the truth <HI>an
Anti-Parliament try Doctrine.</HI> But both <HI>Gamaliel and my Text teach
me</HI> to take heed of <HI>fighting again&s;t God;</HI> and I being taught &s;o high
and nece&s;&s;ary a point of wi&s;dome, conceiv'd it my dutie not to <HI>eat</HI>
&s;uch a <HI>mor&s;ell</HI> alone, but to &s;pread a Table for as many of my Bre|thren
as pleas'd to come, and &s;it downe and eat of the &s;ame with
me. I and my <HI>Doctrine</HI> are onely in &s;uch a &s;en&s;e <HI>Anti-Parliamenta|rian,</HI>
as Chri&s;t and his were <HI>Anti-Ce&s;arean.</HI></P>
<P>2. To a &s;econd Marginall note in the &s;ame page,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 50.</NOTE> ordered like|wi&s;e
to be <HI>noted</HI> (as the former) I an&s;wer likewi&s;e, that though
<HI>people have authoritie to nominate &s;uch who by the rule of Gods Word may
limit &s;ome particulars, though not by their own bare Authoritie, without,
or again&s;t the Word,</HI> yet it followeth not; either</P>
<P>1. That they <HI>have authoritie to nominate &s;uch,</HI> who &s;hall have au|thoritie
by vertue of &s;uch nomination to peremptorize by fire or
&s;word all their <HI>limitations</HI> what&s;oever, as agreeable <HI>to Gods Word.</HI>
Nor</P>
<P>2. Doth it follow, that, in ca&s;e their <HI>limitations</HI> &s;hould be <HI>agree|able
to the word</HI> of God, therefore they have power to compell any
man by externall violence, to &s;ubject either in their judgement or
practi&s;e unto them; e&s;pecially whil&s;t they are not able to convince
them of any &s;uch excellency in the&s;e <HI>limitations,</HI> as <HI>an agreeablene&s;&s;e
to the word of God?</HI> It is no waies <HI>agreeable to the word of God,</HI> that
<PB N="68" REF="40">
men &s;hould be puni&s;h'd either in their bodies or e&s;tates, for not
&s;iding with the truth <HI>in difficult and hard Que&s;tions;</HI> as all &s;uch may
well be pre&s;um'd to be, wherein <HI>&s;ober and con&s;cientious per&s;ons</HI> can|not
be &s;atisfied. The word of God doth not permit two per&s;ons
or parties of a di&s;&s;enting judgement about an hard ca&s;e or que&s;ti|on,
to judge or think hardly one of another<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Rom 14. 2, 3, 4.</NOTE>; much le&s;&s;e doth it
permit them to puni&s;h, or lay violent hands one upon another.
Nor</P>
<P>3. And la&s;tly, doth it follow, that, though <HI>Princes, Magi|&s;trates,
Mini&s;ters, Parliaments, Synods,</HI> &s;hould be nominated or <HI>e|lected
by the</HI> lawfull <HI>power of the people,</HI> and withall &s;hould <HI>have Au|thoritie
by the word of God</HI> to <HI>limit</HI> any <HI>particulars</HI> thereof; that
therefore this <HI>Authoritie</HI> &s;hould be deriv'd upon them by means of
&s;uch <HI>nomination.</HI> Every private man hath &s;ufficient <HI>Authoritie,</HI>
(though perhaps he may want abilitie of gifts) to <HI>limit any parti|cular
in the word of God according to the word of God;</HI> this being no|thing
el&s;e but a true and right apprehending or under&s;tanding of
this <HI>word.</HI> Which apprehen&s;ion or under&s;tanding of his, though
he hath no power by way of office to impart unto others, yet hath
he a right, yea, and an obligation upon him by way of dutie, &s;o to
impart it, when God affords &s;ea&s;on and opportunitie, time and
place for it. So that this marginall note is not acce&s;&s;ory to any
harme done to <HI>the &s;aid Conclu&s;ion.</HI></P>
<P>3.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 51.</NOTE> To a third marginall note &s;ub&s;ervient in the &s;ame page to
the two former, I an&s;wer,</P>
<P>1. That though it &s;hould be granted, that <HI>every Magi&s;trate, Par|liament
and Synod have power to declare and injoyn, what is nece&s;&s;arie
to be beleeved, practi&s;ed, by or according to Gods Word,</HI> yet this is no|thing
more then what every Pa&s;tor or Mini&s;ter over a congrega|tion,
hath power to do, yea and ought to do<NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">1 Tim 6. 13. 17, 18. 1 Tim. 4. 11. &amp;c.</NOTE> from day to day
in the cour&s;e of his mini&s;tery. But</P>
<P>2. If by <HI>declaring and enjoyning,</HI> he means any &s;uch <HI>declaring and
enjoyning,</HI> whereby <HI>Magi&s;trate, Parliament, or Synod,</HI> &s;hall be enabled
temporally to puni&s;h tho&s;e who &s;hall either not <HI>beleeve,</HI> or not <HI>pra|cti&s;e;</HI>
I an&s;wer, that this is but <HI>petitio Principii,</HI> a &s;uppo&s;all of that
which is the main Que&s;tion; and therefore waits &s;till upon M^r.
<HI>Prynne's</HI> pen for a more &s;ufficient proof, the old writ of <HI>Ip&s;e dixit,</HI>
being out of date long &s;ince. We have reconciled the margent; and
<PB N="69" REF="40">
nothing doubt but that the page will be of as ea&s;ie accommoda|tion.
Therefore</P>
<P>4. Whereas he puts him&s;elf to the needle&s;&s;e labour of repeating
the charge formerly charged upon my Doctrine, a <HI>an underminer
of the Authority of Parliaments,</HI> &amp;c. I &s;hall take admonition by it,
and &s;ave a <HI>needle&s;&s;e labour</HI> of repeating what hath been already &s;aid
in way of an&s;wer to it. Onely I &s;hall adde, that this Repetition of
Mr. <HI>Prinnes</HI> judgement and charge of my fore-mentioned Doctrine,
compared with my own thoughts and apprehen&s;ions of it, puts me
in mind of a &s;aying of a great Ca&s;ui&s;t: <HI>Eadem po&s;&s;unt alicui videri
manife&s;t&egrave; vera, quae alteri videntur manife&s;t&egrave; fal&s;a.</HI> The &s;ame things
may &s;eem to one manife&s;tly true, which to another &s;eem as ma|nife&s;tly
fal&s;e. That Doctrine which Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> arraigns as an <HI>un|derminer
of Parliamentary Authority,</HI> I conceive to be a Doctrine of
the riche&s;t e&s;tabli&s;hment and confirmation to it: of which appre|hen&s;ion
of mine, I have given a &s;ufficient account el&s;ewhere.</P>
<P>5. Whereas he further chargeth the &s;aid Doctrine with <HI>contra|rietie
to my late Covenant and Prote&s;tation, and that in the mo&s;t tran|&s;cendent
manner that ever any have hitherto attempted in print; and re|fers
him&s;elf to all wi&s;e men to judge,</HI> whether this be not &s;o; I <HI>referre</HI>
both him&s;elf and <HI>all</HI> his <HI>wi&s;e men,</HI> to <HI>judge,</HI> whether I have not gi|ven
a &s;ufficient an&s;wer hereunto in my <HI>Innocencies Triumph. p.</HI> 4, 5,
6, &amp;c. yet le&s;t &s;entence &s;hould be given again&s;t me herein, I here
adde, that certainly no clau&s;e in that <HI>Covenant and Prote&s;tation</HI> in|tended,
that the Sub&s;cribers unto it &s;hould be bound in con&s;cience
by vertue of &s;uch &s;ub&s;cription, to make Gods of men, or (which
interpreted, amounts to as much) to give any man <HI>Dominion over
his Faith</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">It is not &s;afe for any to receive mat|ters of Reli|gion without terious exa|mination. &mdash;Who ever be the Church, the Authoritie of it, is not &s;ufficient; po&s;&s;ibly the Church may one and there|fore we mu&s;t flee to the Throne of Je&s;us Chri&s;t the Head of the Church for &s;atisfaction. Whom &s;hall we rather beleeve concerning God, then God him&s;elf? if there were a Coun|cell of the mo&s;t learned Doctors that ever the world had, yea, if an A&s;&s;embly of Angels yet in matters of Religion, concerning the good way, the la&s;t Re&s;olution mu&s;t be into Thus &s;aith the Lord. Mr. <HI>Th. H<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">ll</HI> (an High-re&s;olved Presbyterian) in a Sermon, &s;taled the Good old way, Gods way, &amp;c.) preached before the L. Maior, &amp;c. <HI>Apr.</HI> 24. 1<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">44. <HI>pa.</HI> 16, 17.</NOTE>. If this be but granted, my Doctrine is no Delinquent
at all again&s;t <HI>the Covenant and Prote&s;tation.</HI></P>
<P>6. <HI>Whereas he promi&s;es, or threatens (which he plea&s;eth</HI>)
&s;hort an&s;wer to my extravagant di&s;cour&s;e; <HI>and fir&s;t alledgeth that</HI> the
objection might be made again&s;t the generall A&s;&s;emblies, Parliaments,
<PB N="70" REF="41">
Kings of the I&s;raelites, who were cho&s;en by the people, yet they made Laws
and Statutes concerning Religion, and Gods wor&s;hip, with his approba|tion:
<HI>I an&s;wer.</HI></P>
<P>1. That the,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 52.</NOTE> <HI>Generall A&s;&s;emblies, and Kings of I&s;rael, were</HI> not
<HI>cho&s;en by the people,</HI> at lea&s;t by any formall free choice of one out
of many, as our Parliaments and A&s;&s;emblies are. For fir&s;t the Ge|nerall
A&s;&s;emblies con&s;i&s;ted of the generalitie of the people, and &s;o
were not cho&s;en at all; for where <HI>all</HI> are admitted, there is no
choice. Or &s;econdly, if by the <HI>Generall A&s;&s;emblies of I&s;rael,</HI> he means
the &s;eventy per&s;ons &s;poken of, <HI>Numb.</HI> 11. 16. 24. &amp;c. it is evident
from the context, fir&s;t, that they were not cho&s;en by the people in|to
that A&s;&s;embly, but by <HI>Mo&s;es,</HI> and that by expre&s;&s;e order and
command from God. They might po&s;&s;ibly be cho&s;en by the peo|ple
into the places of <HI>Elders</HI> and <HI>Governours</HI> over their re&s;pective
Families and Tribes; but they had no right or calling by vertue of
&s;uch elder&s;hip, to gather them&s;elves into an A&s;&s;embly of &s;eventy,
upon any &s;uch terms, or for any &s;uch ends, as the fore-mentioned
A&s;&s;embly were drawn together by God. Secondly, evident like-wi&s;e
it is, from ver. 25. that the&s;e &s;eventy had a &s;peciall anointing
of the Holy Gho&s;t from God, and prophecied. Therefore there
is a great difference between this A&s;&s;embly, and generall A&s;&s;em|blies
now.</P>
<P>2. Neither were the <HI>Kings of I&s;rael cho&s;en by the people,</HI> but by
God; except we will call a &s;ub&s;equent con&s;ent and that by way
of duty and homage to the choice made by God, a <HI>choice. When
thou &s;halt come unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, and
&s;halt po&s;&s;e&s;&s;e it and dwell therein, if thou &s;ay, I will &s;et a King over me,
like as all the Nations that are about me, Then &s;halt thou make him King
over thee, whom the LORD THY GOD SHALL CHVSE, &amp;c.</HI>
Deut. 17. 14, 15. <HI>Saul</HI> their fir&s;t King, was <HI>cho&s;en</HI> and appointed
by God, 1 <HI>Sam.</HI> 9. 15, 16. So <HI>David</HI> their &s;econd King, 1 <HI>Sam.</HI> 16.
1. yea his &s;eed likewi&s;e was cho&s;en and appointed by God to &s;uc|ceed
in this Kingdom, and to reign after him for ever, 2 <HI>Sam.</HI> 7.
12. 16. yea and notwith&s;tanding this generall choice and de&s;ig|nation,
<HI>Solomon</HI> their King, is particularly &s;aid to have been <HI>cho&s;en</HI>
by God, 1 <HI>Chron.</HI> 29. 1. So for the Kings that reigned over the ten
Tribes, after the rent of the ten Tribes from the other two; <HI>Jero|boam,</HI>
the fir&s;t King, was cho&s;en by God, 1 <HI>King.</HI> 11. 31. yea and
<PB N="71" REF="41">
his &s;eed al&s;o, conditionally, ver. 38. But <HI>Nadah</HI> his &s;on, proving
wicked, brake the condition, and cut off the intailment. Their third
King, <HI>Baa&s;ha,</HI> was not <HI>cho&s;en by the people</HI> neither, but was fore-cho|&s;ent
by God, 1 <HI>King.</HI> 14. 14. to do that execution upon the hou&s;e
of <HI>Ieroboam,</HI> which is recorded, 1 <HI>King. 15. 27, 28, 29. Elab</HI> their
next King &s;ucceeded his Father, by right of inheritance, and is no
where &s;aid to have been <HI>cho&s;en by the people</HI> into the throne. <HI>Zimri</HI>
the next, was a bloody Traytor and u&s;urper. The two next follow|ing
him, <HI>Omri and Tibni,</HI> were &s;et up indeed by the people, but not
in any way of a lawfull and regular election, but by way of tumult
and faction: and the one partie prevailing, the King followed by
the other, was &s;oon &s;uppre&s;&s;ed. <HI>Ahab</HI> the &s;on of the prevailing
<HI>King,</HI> without any <HI>election by the people</HI> (except a connivence or
permi&s;&s;ion, be called an <HI>election</HI>) by the a&s;cent of de&s;cent or &s;ucce&s;|&s;ion
got up into the throne. After the &s;ame manner al&s;o <HI>Ahaziah</HI>
his &s;on came to be King. This <HI>Ahaziath</HI> dying without children,
his Brother <HI>Jeboram</HI> (another &s;on of <HI>Ahath,</HI> and next to him by
birth, as it &s;eems) by the priviledge of his birth came peaceably
to the Kingdom, without any <HI>election by the people</HI> any where heard
of. 2 <HI>King.</HI> 1. 17. The next King, <HI>Jehu</HI> by name, was <HI>cho&s;en by God</HI>
him&s;elf after a &s;peciall manner, 2 <HI>King.</HI> 9. 1, 2. and his children
after him <HI>to the fourth generation</HI> (2 King. 10. 30.) <HI>to &s;it upon the
throne of I&s;rael, Shallum,</HI> who &s;ucceeded <HI>Ahab</HI> and his race, (their
date of Reiglement being expired) came to the Kingdome by
blood; and is indeed &s;aid to have <HI>&s;mote Zachariah</HI> (the la&s;t of <HI>A|habs</HI>
race) <HI>before the people,</HI> and &s;o to have <HI>reigned in his &s;tead:</HI> (2
King. 15. 10.) but by what <HI>maxime enle ley,</HI> the murthering of
a King <HI>before the people,</HI> will be interpreted, a being <HI>cho&s;en</HI> King <HI>by
the people,</HI> I under&s;tand not. <HI>Menahem</HI> his &s;ucce&s;&s;or after a moneths
reigne, found the &s;ame way to the Kingdome (I mean, by blood)
which his Predece&s;&s;our had chalked out. <HI>Pekahiah</HI> his &s;on and &s;uc|ce&s;&s;our,
had no other choice we read of, but onely by that his re|lation.
Nor had <HI>Pekah</HI> who &s;ucceeded him in the throne, any
other <HI>choice</HI> into this dignitie, but onely by the murther he com|mitted
upon his Ma&s;ter; except it be &s;aid, that he was cho&s;en by
tho&s;e 52. men who a&s;&s;i&s;ted him in that bloody execution. 2. <HI>King.</HI>
15. 25. Nor had <HI>Ho&s;hea</HI> (the la&s;t of the&s;e Kings) any other <HI>choice,</HI>
entrance, or acce&s;&s;e we read of unto the Throne, but the &s;ame with
<PB N="72" REF="42">
his Predece&s;&s;or, a bloodie con&s;piracie again&s;t his Lord and Ma|&s;ter.
So that Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> is ab&s;olutely mi&s;taken in the very bottome
and groundwork of his fir&s;t allegation, affirming the <HI>Generall A&s;|&s;emblies,
Parliament, Kings of the I&s;raelites, to have been cho&s;en by the
people.</HI></P>
<P>3. (And la&s;tly) neither did they <HI>make Laws and Statutes concern|ing
Religion and Gods wor&s;hip, with his approbation,</HI> except his <HI>appro|bation</HI>
went along with the tran&s;gre&s;&s;ion of his <HI>Law.</HI> For by this
they &s;tood expre&s;ly charg'd, not to <HI>adde unto the word which he
commanded them, nor</HI> yet <HI>to dimini&s;h ought from it.</HI> Deut. 4. 2. And
againe, <HI>Deut.</HI> 12. 32. And what <HI>addition</HI> could be made with an
higher hand, or with more provocation in the &s;ight of God, unto
<HI>this word</HI> of his, then an <HI>enacting Laws and Statutes concerning Reli|gion,
and his wor&s;hip,</HI> whereunto men &s;hould &s;tand bound in con|&s;cience
to &s;ubmit, as well as unto the <HI>Lawes</HI> of God them&s;elves de|clared
in this word? Or if it be &s;aid, that men were not bound in
con&s;cience to &s;ubmit to &s;uch <HI>Laws and Statutes,</HI> as well as unto <HI>the
Laws</HI> of God; then were they not to be puni&s;hed for non-&s;ubmi&s;|&s;ion
to them, unle&s;&s;e we will &s;ay, that men ought to be puni&s;hed for
&s;omewhat el&s;e, be&s;ides &s;in.</P>
<P>To his &s;econd rea&s;on again&s;t the Doctrine and Conclu&s;ion a|fore&s;aid,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 53.</NOTE>
I an&s;wer, that as <HI>God him&s;elf u&s;ed the mini&s;tery, a&s;&s;i&s;tance of
Cyrus, Artaxerxes, Darius, for the building of his Temple, and advance|ment
of his wor&s;hip, for which they made Decrees, Statutes;</HI> &s;o I con|ceive
he doth expect and require the <HI>mini&s;tery, a&s;&s;i&s;tance</HI> of Chri&s;ti|an
Magi&s;trates, Parliaments, and <HI>Laws and Statutes</HI> to be made by
them, for the promotion of his wor&s;hip, But as <HI>Cyrus, Artaxerxes,
Darius, made</HI> no <HI>Decree, Statute,</HI> to di&s;courage any of the true <HI>wor|&s;hipers
of God,</HI> nor yet to compell them to any kinde of wor&s;hip,
contrary (in their judgements) to the word of God; or in ca&s;e
they did make, or &s;hould have made, any &s;uch <HI>Decree, Statute,</HI>
they &s;hould have exceeded the limits of their ju&s;t power, and not
have done ju&s;tifiably in the &s;ight of God; So neither can Chri&s;tian
Princes, Magi&s;trates, commend them&s;elves unto God in any &s;uch
exerci&s;e of their power, whereby they &s;hall con&s;traine or enforce
the con&s;cientious &amp; faithfull &s;ervants of God to any kind of wor|&s;hip,
contrary to their con&s;cience, or by the performance whereof,
condemning it in their judgements for unlawfull, they &s;hould pol|lute
and condemne them&s;elves in the &s;ight of God.</P>
<P><PB N="73" REF="42">
To his third Rea&s;on we an&s;wer likewi&s;e;<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 54.</NOTE> that for <HI>mo&s;t Chri&s;tian
Kings and Magi&s;trates in the world,</HI> whether <HI>claiming to be heredita|rie,</HI>
or whether <HI>eligible by the people,</HI> as <HI>the Members of Parliament are,
we CAN without either di&s;loyaltie or ab&s;urdity, deny them</HI> any &s;uch
<HI>Authority in matters of Religion and Church-Government,</HI> whereby
they &s;hould be enabled to de&s;troy, cru&s;h, or undo &s;uch per&s;ons as
live godlily and peaceably under their juri&s;diction, and that for
none other rea&s;on or offence on their parts, but either for weak|ne&s;&s;e
in judgement and under&s;tanding, by rea&s;on whereof they
cannot &s;ee the agreeablene&s;&s;e of tho&s;e things that are impo&s;ed on
them, to the Word of God, (in ca&s;e they be indeed &s;o qualified) or
el&s;e for the goodne&s;&s;e of their con&s;cience, which is unwilling to
&s;hip-wrack its own peace, by going contrarie to its own light and
dictate. We freely allow to all <HI>Chri&s;tian Kings and Magi&s;trates in
the world,</HI> any <HI>Authoritie</HI> what&s;oever <HI>in matters of Religion, Church-Government,</HI>
or in what other cau&s;es or ca&s;es &s;oever it can be de&s;i|red
either by them, or for them, which will not claim or chal|lenge
a right of power to puni&s;hmen for not being as wi&s;e, as lear|ned,
as farre in&s;ighted into <HI>matters of Religion</HI> as them&s;elves, or for
&s;uch matters of fact which are occa&s;ioned directly and meerly by
&s;uch defects as the&s;e. We allow a power to all Magi&s;trates to pu|ni&s;h
the wickedne&s;&s;e of mens wils; when this di&s;covers it &s;elf by
any &s;utable action in what matters or ca&s;es &s;oever: but the weak|ne&s;&s;e
of mens judgements, we conceive cals rather for means of in|&s;truction,
then matter of puni&s;hment, from the Magi&s;trates hand.
We cannot judge, that the mi&s;taking of a mans way in a dark con|trover&s;ie,
de&s;erves a pri&s;on, or any other &s;troke with the civill
&s;word.</P>
<P>To his fourth we an&s;wer;<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 55.</NOTE></P>
<P>1. That whereas he affirms, that I <HI>do not onely grant, but argue,
that every private man hath, yea ought to have, power to elect and con|&s;titute
his own Mini&s;ter,</HI> cau&s;ing the&s;e words to be printed in a differ|ing
character, as if they were mine, and onely tran&s;cribed by him,
citing (in his margin) <HI>pag.</HI> 25. 26. as their quarter in my di&s;cour&s;e;
the truth is, that this is no fair play; for there is no &s;uch line or
juncto of wordseither in either of tho&s;e pages, or el&s;ewhere in tho&s;e
Sermons. It never came into my thoughts to think, (nor &s;urely
ever i&s;&s;ued out of my pen) that <HI>every private man hath, or ought to
<PB N="74" REF="43">
have a power to con&s;titute his own Mini&s;ter.</HI> And be&s;ides he puts a
more quaint and &s;ubtlle di&s;tinction upon me, then I am capable of.
I cannot conceive that any <HI>private man hath a power to elect or con|&s;titute
his Mini&s;ter, except he ought to have it.</HI> That <HI>power</HI> which God
hath been plea&s;ed to conferre upon any man, he both <HI>ought to have,</HI>
and <HI>hath;</HI> though the exerci&s;e and benefit of that power may be
injuriou&s;ly denied unto him, or withheld from him.</P>
<P>2. <HI>Whereas he further pre&s;umes, that</HI> I will grant, that private
men have power likewi&s;e to &s;et up Independent Congregations, which have
Authoritie to pre&s;cribe &s;uch Covenants, Laws and rules of Government,
Di&s;cipline, wor&s;hip, as them&s;elves think mo&s;t agreeable to the Word; <HI>and
hereupon demands;</HI> if then they may derive &s;uch an Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Au|thority
to Independent Mini&s;ters and Churches, why not as well to Par|liaments,
and Synods likewi&s;e by the &s;elf-&s;ame rea&s;on? <HI>I an&s;wer,</HI></P>
<P>1. That he is mi&s;taken in his good opinion of my bountie. For
I do not <HI>grant,</HI> either fir&s;t, that all, or every &s;ort of, <HI>private men
have power to &s;et up</HI> any <HI>Independent Congregation.</HI> Or 2. That any
<HI>private</HI> men <HI>have power to &s;et up</HI> any &s;uch <HI>congregation</HI> con&s;i&s;ting of
other men then them&s;elves: but onely to agree together among&s;t
them&s;elves to become &s;uch a <HI>congregation.</HI> Or 3. That any <HI>Congre|gation</HI>
what&s;oever hath any <HI>Authoritie</HI> to practi&s;e, much le&s;&s;e <HI>to pre|&s;cribe</HI>
either <HI>&s;uch Covenants, Laws, Rules of Government, or wor&s;hip,
as them&s;elves</HI> onely <HI>think mo&s;t agreeable to the Word of God;</HI> but one|ly
to <HI>practi&s;e</HI> tho&s;e among&s;t them&s;elves which they <HI>know</HI> to be <HI>agree|able
to the Word of God;</HI> without <HI>pre&s;cribing</HI> either the&s;e or any other,
unto others. God <HI>gives</HI> no per&s;on or <HI>Congregation</HI> any <HI>Authoritie</HI>
or power &s;o much as to practi&s;e them&s;elves what <HI>they</HI> &s;imple <HI>think
mo&s;t agreeable to his Word,</HI> but onely that which <HI>REALLY IS agree|able
unto his Word;</HI> much le&s;&s;e doth he give either the one or the
other any <HI>Authority to pre&s;cribe</HI> their <HI>thinkings</HI> in this kind unto
others. But</P>
<P>2. <HI>Whereas he demands,</HI> Why private men may not derive an Ec|cle&s;ia&s;ticall
Authority unto Parliaments and Synods, as well as unto
Independent Mini&s;ters and Churches; <HI>the account is readie:</HI></P>
<P>1. No <HI>private men</HI> what&s;oever, can in any &s;en&s;e, neither in
whole, nor in part, <HI>derive any Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Authority,</HI> either unto
any <HI>Mini&s;ter,</HI> but onely him, unto whom they commit the charge
of their <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">ouls; nor unto any <HI>Congregation,</HI> but onely that whereof
<PB N="75" REF="43">
they are members them&s;elves. Therefore it no wayes follows; <HI>Pri|vate
men have power to derive Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Authoritie</HI> to tho&s;e <HI>Con|gregations</HI>
whereof they are the re&s;pective members them&s;elves:
therefore they have the like <HI>power to derive the &s;ame Authority to
Parliaments, and Synods,</HI> whereof they are no members: Take a pa|rallel:
The A&s;&s;i&s;tants in the Company of Chirurgians, have an in|tere&s;t
in the Government and carriage of the affairs of their own
Companie; therefore they have the &s;ame intere&s;t in the Govern|ment
of the affairs of the Company, of Merchant-taylors.</P>
<P>2. A per&s;on qualified for the office and work of the Mini&s;tery
according to the word of God, is a &s;ubject capable of <HI>Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall
Authority;</HI> and may accordingly by per&s;ons Authorized by the
word of God thereunto, be lawfully inve&s;ted with that <HI>power:</HI> But
we have no rule or direction from the word of God either 1. to
judge whether, or when, either Parliaments or Synods are &s;ub|jects
capable of Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Authoritie: nor 2. is there any rule
or warrant to be found there for the Authorizing of any &s;ort, or
rank of men, actually to conferre &s;uch an <HI>Authority or power,</HI> in ca&s;e
they &s;hould be found &s;ubjects capable of it. Therefore Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI>
arguing in this place, is of no better form, or &s;trength, then this:
<HI>Private men</HI> may do that which Gods Word authorizeth them to
do: therefore they may do that al&s;o, which Gods Word doth not
authorize them unto. But</P>
<P>3. (And la&s;tly) The main foundation and ground-work upon
which he builds the fabrique of his rea&s;oning here, is an utter
mi&s;take. For I <HI>neither</HI> grant nor think, that private men, either
when by con&s;ent they fir&s;t congregate them&s;elves and chu&s;e a Mi|ni&s;ter
or Pa&s;tor over them, much le&s;&s;e when they joyn them&s;elves
to a Congregation already gathered and form'd, do <HI>derive any Ec|cle&s;ia&s;ticall
Authority</HI> unto it: but that a company of per&s;ons fear|ing
God, and con&s;enting together to become a Church-body or
holy Congregation, have an <HI>Authoritie</HI> (which you may call Ec|cle&s;ia&s;tique,
if you plea&s;e; but I &s;hall not commend the terme unto
you in this ca&s;e, nor would I willingly call it an <HI>authoritie,</HI> but ra|ther
a right or priviledge) derived unto them, not by them&s;elves,
but from God. Fir&s;t to chu&s;e unto them&s;elves a Pa&s;tor, and other
officers, as opportunity &s;hall be, &s;uch as are recommended in the
Scriptures as meet for &s;uch places, and then by, and together, with
<PB N="76" REF="44">
the&s;e to admini&s;ter and order their Church-affaires, in all the con|cernments
thereof, according to the word of God, in the name and
authoritie of our Lord Je&s;us Chri&s;t, who&s;e properly, all Eccle&s;ia|&s;ticall
authoritie is.</P>
<P>To his fift argument, we an&s;wer,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 56.</NOTE></P>
<P>1. By a demurre, whether <HI>God doth oft-times makes u&s;e of un&s;ancti|fied
per&s;ons, and the rude multitude</HI> (which I doe not under-value,
becau&s;e I refu&s;e to entitle them to a power in Church-matters
greater then ever the <HI>Apo&s;tles</HI> had) <HI>to advance his glory, propagate his
Go&s;pel, promote his wor&s;hip, vindicate his truth, edifie his Church.</HI> A <HI>Ju|das,</HI>
a <HI>Balaam,</HI> a <HI>Saul,</HI> a <HI>Gamaliel,</HI> a <HI>per&s;ecuting High Prie&s;t,</HI> were not
<HI>the rude multitude: un&s;anctified per&s;ons</HI> it is like they were, at lea&s;t
mo&s;t of them: But God did not <HI>oft-times make u&s;e either of Balam,
or Saul, or Gamaliel,</HI> or <HI>the per&s;ecuting High Prie&s;t,</HI> either <HI>to propagate
his Go&s;pel, promote his wor&s;hip, edifie his Church, &amp;c.</HI> but the Devill
<HI>oft-times made u&s;e of them</HI> to the contrary, <HI>viz.</HI> to hinder <HI>his Go&s;pel,</HI>
to pollute <HI>his wor&s;hip,</HI> to per&s;ecute <HI>his Church, &amp;c.</HI> And for the
<HI>vulgar multitude,</HI> which he commends as none-&s;uch, <HI>for forward|ne&s;&s;e
to beleeve, follow, profe&s;&s;e Chri&s;t, embrace the Go&s;pel,</HI> though he
confe&s;&s;eth, that <HI>many of them did it for &s;ini&s;ter ends;</HI> I an&s;wer, 1. That
<HI>this multitude</HI> was but one &s;wallow, (not a <HI>multitude</HI> of &s;wallows)
and therefore not &s;ufficient to make his &s;pring, of <HI>Gods oft-times
u&s;ing the rude multitude</HI> to doe &s;uch and &s;uch things. 2. They <HI>that
beleeve, follow, profe&s;&s;e Chri&s;t, embrace the Go&s;pel out of &s;ini&s;ter ends,</HI>
when they decline and fall back (as all &s;ini&s;ter-ended Profe&s;&s;ors are
like to doe fir&s;t, or la&s;t, and as this <HI>vulgar multitude</HI> generally did)
are like more to hinder and &s;et back the Go&s;pel by their declining,
then ever they <HI>propagated</HI> or <HI>promoted</HI> it by their profe&s;ion. But</P>
<P>2. <HI>Whereas he inferres, that</HI> therefore they may well have power to
chu&s;e &s;uch per&s;ons, who &s;hall and may make Lawes, to promote the Go&s;pel
and Government of the Church of Chri&s;t; <HI>I an&s;wer.</HI></P>
<P>1. That Gods power to <HI>make u&s;e</HI> of <HI>un&s;anctified per&s;ons, or a rude
multitude</HI> to <HI>promote</HI> the affaires of his <HI>Go&s;pel, Wor&s;hip, Churches, &amp;c.</HI>
is no argument to prove, that therefore men may commit the care
and tru&s;t of the&s;e affaires to &s;uch <HI>per&s;ons</HI> or <HI>multitudes,</HI> or intere&s;&s;e
them in any &s;uch power, which it is ten to one but they will u&s;e
rather in a <HI>de&s;tructive,</HI> then <HI>promotive</HI> way thereunto. Gods <HI>power</HI>
to <HI>powre out a Spirit of prophecie</HI> upon a per&s;on altogether ignorant
<PB N="77" REF="44">
of the Scriptures; and &s;o <HI>to powre out a Spirit</HI> of grace and holine&s;&s;e
upon a gracele&s;&s;e and prophane per&s;on, is no ground or warrant
for a Chri&s;tian Congregation to chu&s;e either &s;uch an ignorant or
prophane per&s;on for their Mini&s;ter or Pa&s;tor.</P>
<P>2. Neither is Gods will, act, or example in this kind, as <HI>viz.</HI>
when to &s;hew the &s;overaigntie of his power over and above the
powers of darkne&s;&s;e, and the <HI>God of this world;</HI> he makes u&s;e of Sa|tan
to give te&s;timony unto his Son Je&s;us Chri&s;t, as he did, <HI>Mar.</HI> 1.
24. <HI>Luk.</HI> 4. 34. and &s;o to exerci&s;e the patience of <HI>Job</HI> by afflicting
him, as he did, <HI>Job</HI> 1. Such acts (I &s;ay) or di&s;pen&s;ations of God
as the&s;e, are no grounds for the ju&s;tification of &s;uch men, who &s;hall
make u&s;e of the Devill to preach the Go&s;pel, or to afflict the Saints,
for the exerci&s;e or improvement of their patience. Therefore no|thing
that ever God hath done (how <HI>oft</HI> &s;oever he hath done it)
either <HI>by un&s;anctified per&s;ons, or by rude multitudes,</HI> for <HI>the propagation
of his Go&s;pel, the edification of his Church, &amp;c.</HI> doth any waies counte|nance
or warrant men, to inve&s;t either the one or the other with
&s;uch a power, whereby they may endamage and make havock and
&s;poyle both of the one and the other. The rea&s;on is plaine: becau&s;e
the evill Spirit that &s;aid<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Act. 19. 11.</NOTE>, <HI>Je&s;us I know, and Paul I know;</HI> yet &s;aid
to the Exorci&s;ts, <HI>but who are yee?</HI> So the powers of &s;in and wicked|ne&s;&s;e
in men, which will tremble at the voyce of God, and forget
their natures and motions at his command, will laugh all the con|jurements
and charmings of men in the face to &s;corne; and will act
their own parts, and drive on their own way with what fury and
violence they plea&s;e, notwith&s;tanding all charges, interce&s;&s;ions, and
obte&s;tations of men to the contrary. Therefore no power can with
rea&s;on, equitie, or con&s;cience, be put into the hand of &s;uch per&s;ons,
(I meane <HI>per&s;ons un&s;anctified and rude multitudes</HI>) or nominating
whom they plea&s;e (I meane from among&s;t per&s;ons eligible enough
by the Lawes of the Land either for Parliamentary or Synodicall
intere&s;t) to umpire in the affaires of the Go&s;pel, and to make what
<HI>Lawes</HI> they plea&s;e for <HI>the government of the Church of Chri&s;t.</HI></P>
<P>If it be yet objected and &s;aid; But why may not <HI>un&s;anctified per|&s;ons
and rude multitudes</HI> nominate and chu&s;e &s;uch, who by vertue
of &s;uch nomination may have power to make <HI>Lawes in matters of
Religion, Wor&s;hip, Government of the Church, &amp;c.</HI> though not accord|ing
as they plea&s;e, yet according to the word of God, and &s;uch <HI>as
<PB N="78" REF="45">
are agreeable thereunto?</HI> What inconvenience is there in this? I
an&s;wer,</P>
<P>1. By way of conce&s;&s;ion; that the grant of a power in per&s;ons
&s;o nominated and cho&s;en to make Lawes onely of incouragement
and protection to the &s;ervants of God, in <HI>matters of Religion</HI> and
<HI>Church-Government,</HI> or to order &s;ome particularities in either, one|ly
upon incouragements to tho&s;e that &s;hall obey without penall
enactions again&s;t tho&s;e that cannot obey, may po&s;&s;ibly not tend
or &s;ort to much inconvenience. Nor let any man think, that out|ward
mulcts and penalties are e&s;&s;entiall unto Laws, whether <HI>in
matters of Religion, wor&s;hip,</HI> or in any other ca&s;es. <HI>Threatning of bo|dily
puni&s;hment</HI> (&s;aith learned M^r. <HI>Rutherford,</HI> one of the Commi&s;|&s;ioners
for the Kingdome of <HI>Scotland</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Due right of Presbyte|ries <HI>part. 2. pag.</HI> 404.</NOTE> <HI>is not e&s;&s;entiall to Lawes
in the generall, becau&s;e &s;ome Lawes are &s;econded onely with rewards.</HI>
Yet this inconvenience (it's like) would attend even &s;uch a power,
were it granted; Tho&s;e Lawes which &s;hould be made <HI>in matters of
Religion, wor&s;hip, &amp;c.</HI> by men in authoritie, would be of like con&s;e|quence
among&s;t the generalitie of men, with the traditions of the
<HI>Scribes</HI> and <HI>Phari&s;ees,</HI> by which <HI>they made the Commandements of God
of none effect</HI><NOTE N="b" PLACE="marg">Mat. 15. 5.</NOTE>; I meane they would &s;o intere&s;&s;e them&s;elves in the
hearts and affections of the common &s;ort of men, that they would
&s;oone place more in the ob&s;ervation of them, then in keeping the
Commandements of God. An experiment of which inconvenience
we had <HI>in folio,</HI> in the Ceremoniall and &s;uper&s;titious injunctions of
the late Prelaticall power, when men thought better of them&s;elves
for &s;tanding up at the Creed, joyning in <HI>Gloria Patri, &s;ecundum u&s;um
Sarum,</HI> bowing at the Name <HI>Je&s;us,</HI> cringing before an Altar, &amp;c.
then they did of others for hearing the Word of God preached,
with reverence and attention, or for walking in a con&s;cientious
conformitie unto it. But</P>
<P>2. If a further power &s;hall be granted unto men &s;o cho&s;en (I
meane <HI>by un&s;anctified per&s;ons and rude multitudes,</HI> as Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> cal|leth
them) as <HI>viz. a power of enacting Lawes and Statutes in matters
of Religion, wor&s;hip, &amp;c.</HI> under what mulcts and penalties they plea&s;e,
who &s;hall judge whether the&s;e Lawes and Statutes <HI>be agreeable to
the word of God,</HI> or no? If they them&s;elves, the Law-makers, &s;hall be
Judges, mi&s;erable is the condition of the &s;ervants of God under
them like to be: becau&s;e it is not to be expected, but that they will
<PB N="79" REF="45">
avouch whatever <HI>Lawes or Statutes</HI> they &s;hall make in this kind,
to <HI>be agreeable to the word of God.</HI> The Popi&s;h Parliaments, during
the reigne of Antichri&s;tiani&s;me in the Land, did no le&s;&s;e. If the
people, from whom obedience and &s;ubjection to &s;uch <HI>Lawes</HI> is ex|pected,
&s;hall be authorized to judge, whether the&s;e <HI>Lawes be agreea|ble
to the word of God,</HI> or no; (which of nece&s;&s;itie mu&s;t be granted,
otherwi&s;e obedience unto them can never be yeelded with a good
con&s;cience) this will reflect prejudice and di&s;paragement upon the
wi&s;dome and prudence of the Law-givers, (and con&s;equently ener|vate
their Authoritie) e&s;pecially when any of the&s;e Judges &s;hall
give &s;entence <HI>in oppo&s;itum,</HI> and determine a nullitie in &s;uch <HI>Lawes,</HI>
for want of due corre&s;pondence with the word of God. The nomo|thetique
power or Authoritie, wherever it re&s;ides, will never con|&s;ult
honour, intere&s;t, confirmation or &s;trength to it &s;elf, by making
&s;uch Lawes, which in their very nature, frame, and con&s;titution are
matters of di&s;pute, and which mu&s;t pa&s;&s;e and abide the te&s;ts of the
judgements and con&s;ciences of the be&s;t and wi&s;e&s;t of tho&s;e that are
to yeeld &s;ubjection unto them, and that with &s;o much hazard of
cen&s;ure and contradiction, as Lawes made in matters of <HI>Religion,
wor&s;hip,</HI> and <HI>Church-Government,</HI> alwayes have been and ever will be
<HI>expo&s;ed unto.</HI> The point of <HI>agreeablene&s;&s;e to the word of God,</HI> in <HI>Lawes
and Statutes</HI> about matters of Religion, will be a farre longer &s;uite
and Que&s;tion between Legi&s;lators in that kind, and con&s;cienti|ous
&s;ubjects, then ever any Chancerie &s;uite was, or is like to be</P>
<P>3. To me it is a que&s;tion, whether in this a&s;&s;ertion (at lea&s;t un|der&s;tood
according to the proper importance of the words) <HI>Men
have power to make Laws and Statutes in matters of Religion, wor&s;hip,
&amp;c. agreeable to the word of God;</HI> there be not <HI>contradictio in adjuncto</HI>
(as Logicians &s;peak). It is a very hard matter for me to conceive
how any thing &s;hould be <HI>agreeable to the Word of God,</HI> at lea&s;t <HI>in mat|ters
of Religion, wor&s;hip, &amp;c.</HI> but onely that, which for the &s;pirit,
matter and &s;ub&s;tance of it, is <HI>the word of God</HI> it &s;elf. There is no
great <HI>agreeablene&s;&s;e</HI> between that which is nece&s;&s;arie, and that which
is unnece&s;&s;arie; between that which is indulgent and favourable to
the Saints and others in point of libertie, and that which inthrals
and brings them into bondage; between that which is of <HI>divine
in&s;piration,</HI> and that which is of humane. Now certain it is, that
what&s;oever is impo&s;ed upon men by the <HI>word of God,</HI> is nece&s;&s;arie,
<PB N="80" REF="46">
and of <HI>divine in&s;piration;</HI> and what&s;oever <HI>the word of God</HI> doth not
impo&s;e upon men, it doth it in a way of a gracious libertie and in|dulgence
unto men. And as certain it is, that what&s;oever &s;hall be
impo&s;ed upon the Saints or others by men, e&s;pecially <HI>in matters of
Religion, wor&s;hip, &amp;c.</HI> which for the matter and &s;ub&s;tance of it is
not the very <HI>word of God</HI> it &s;elf, is fir&s;t unnece&s;&s;arie, (for otherwi&s;e
we mu&s;t make the Word of God imperfect, and defective even in
matters of nece&s;&s;itie, which is Popery in the highe&s;t) and &s;econd|ly,
it is but of humane <HI>in&s;piration,</HI> except we hold Enthu&s;ia&s;me,
and the revelations eccentrick to the Scriptures are yet authentique
and of propheticall authority: thirdly (and la&s;tly) it is an abridge|ment
of the libertie, a cancelling of that indulgence, wherewith
God in his Word hath gratified the world. Therefore what&s;oever
&s;hall be impo&s;ed by men upon men in <HI>matter of Religion, wor&s;hip,
&amp;c.</HI> under a pretence of an <HI>agreeablene&s;&s;e to the word of God,</HI> in ca&s;e
it be not (in the &s;en&s;e declared) the very <HI>word of God</HI> it &s;elf, it can
have no other <HI>agree thlene&s;&s;e with this word,</HI> then <HI>Pelop's</HI> &s;houlder,
which (if Poets feign not) was made of yvorie, had with the other
limbs and members of his body which were all living and &s;ound
fle&s;h. Yea and whether any <HI>Law</HI> or <HI>Statute,</HI> can in any &s;en&s;e be
&s;aid to be <HI>agreeable to the word of God,</HI> which &s;hall make the Saints
&s;ervants and bondmen, where <HI>God in his Word</HI> hath either made
them, or left them free, I refer to further and more mature con&s;i|deration.
But</P>
<P>4. And la&s;tly, Suppo&s;e it were granted, as a thing convenient,
that &s;ome &s;hould be intru&s;ted or inve&s;ted with a power of making
Laws and Statutes <HI>in matters of Religion, wor&s;hip, &amp;c.</HI> provided they
be <HI>agreeable to the Word of God;</HI> yet in a&s;much as the making of &s;uch
Laws and Statutes upon &s;uch terms, nece&s;&s;arily requireth the mo&s;t
exact and profound knowledge and under&s;tanding of the Scrip|tures;
I cannot conceive that <HI>un&s;anctified per&s;ons,</HI> or <HI>rude multitudes,</HI>
&s;hould be Authorized by God, or by any principle of &s;ound rea|&s;on,
to have the <HI>nomination</HI> or <HI>election</HI> of tho&s;e men; but rather
another Generation, who may in rea&s;on be conceived to have a
more excellent &s;pirit of di&s;cerning of &s;uch abilities in men, then
they. When men &s;tand in need of the help and advi&s;e of a Phy&s;i|cian,
Lawyer, or Divine, they do not addre&s;&s;e them&s;elves to a
company of <HI>children playing</HI> together <HI>in the market place,</HI> (as our
<PB N="81" REF="46">
Saviour &s;peaks<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Luk. 7. 32.</NOTE>) to nominate or vote among&s;t them, what per|&s;on
in any of the&s;e profe&s;&s;ions they &s;hould imploy &amp; commit their
concernments unto. No more did God ever i&s;&s;ue any commi&s;&s;ion
out of Heaven to <HI>un&s;anctified per&s;ons, rude multitudes,</HI> men ignorant
of God and of the Scriptures, to nominate or chu&s;e for him, who,
or what men he &s;hould imploy to make <HI>Lawes and Statutes</HI> for his
Saints and Churches, <HI>in matters of Religion,</HI> and which concerne
his <HI>wor&s;hip.</HI> A man of ordinary di&s;cretion, and that knows any
thing of the nature or di&s;po&s;ition of the Fox, will never chu&s;e a
Fox to be his Caterer (as our Engli&s;h Proverb hath it).</P>
<P>To his &s;ixt and la&s;t Argument, I an&s;wer, and end.</P>
<P>1. That it is not alwayes found, that <HI>tho&s;e who have no skill at all
in Law,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 57.</NOTE> <HI>Phy&s;icke, or Architecture, have yet judgement and rea&s;on enough
to make choyce of the be&s;t Lawyers, Phy&s;icians, Architects, when they need
their help.</HI> If this were true, the&s;e profe&s;&s;ions would prove malig|nant
unto, and eat up the far greate&s;t part of their own children
and profe&s;&s;ors: there would be very few in any of them, that ever
&s;hould have imployments. For who is there that would &s;et a bung|ler
on work, that <HI>hath judgement and rea&s;on enough</HI> to chu&s;e a Ma|&s;ter-workman?
E&s;pecially con&s;idering what our Engi&s;h Proverb
&s;aith; <HI>The be&s;t, is be&s;t cheape.</HI> There is no man will ride upon an ox,
that may have a well-manag'd and mettal'd gelding to carrie him.
But</P>
<P>2. Suppo&s;e it &s;hould be granted, as univer&s;ally true, that <HI>men
who have no skill at all in the</HI> &s;aid profe&s;&s;ions, <HI>yet had judgement and
rea&s;on enough to make choyce of the be&s;t</HI> in every of them re&s;pectively,
<HI>when they &s;tood in need of their help;</HI> yet this &s;uppo&s;ition mu&s;t be made
withall, that the&s;e <HI>be&s;t</HI> Practitioners, which according to the other
&s;uppo&s;ition will <HI>be cho&s;en,</HI> have given a &s;ufficient account &amp; proofe,
and that to publick &s;atisfaction of their re&s;pective abilities in their
&s;everall profe&s;&s;ions. Otherwi&s;e how &s;hall they who have no skill
in their profe&s;&s;ions, come to know or under&s;tand, &s;o much as by
conjecture, who are the be&s;t in them? This being &s;o, Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI>
compari&s;on or parallel, halts right-downe. Becau&s;e many of tho&s;e,
who are by the Laws of the Land eligible into places of Parliamen|tarie
tru&s;t and power, yea, haply many of tho&s;e who are of the be&s;t
and riche&s;t accompli&s;hment for the di&s;charge of that part of this
tru&s;t, which Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> will needs &s;uppo&s;e belongeth to them, (I
<PB N="82" REF="47">
meane in making Lawes <HI>in matters of Religion, wor&s;hip, Church-Go|vernment,
&amp;c. agreeable to the word of God</HI>) never have given any pub|lick
account or proofe (nor perhaps ever had opportunitie to doe
it) of tho&s;e abilities which God hath given them in that kinde.
And if &s;o, how &s;hould the <HI>rude multitudes,</HI> or the generalitie of the
people ever come to know or under&s;tand who are the be&s;t or fitte&s;t
men to be cho&s;en into tho&s;e great places of tru&s;t and power?</P>
<P>3. When men <HI>&s;tand in need of the help either of a Lawyer, Phy&s;ician,
or Architect,</HI> it is a far ea&s;ier matter to know how to chu&s;e a man
in any of the&s;e profe&s;&s;ions, without running the hazard of much
detriment in his occa&s;ions, then it is for men to know how to chu&s;e
men tolerably qualified for Parliamentary imployment; e&s;pecially,
if one part of this imployment con&s;i&s;ts <HI>in making Lawes &amp; Statutes
in matters of Religion, wor&s;hip, &amp;c. agreeable to the word of God.</HI> The
rea&s;on of the difference is plaine: Recour&s;e is made to <HI>Lawyers</HI> (and
&s;o to <HI>Phy&s;icians, Architects</HI> re&s;pectively) onely for one kind of help
or <HI>imployment,</HI> and that &s;uch which is proper to their profe&s;&s;ion,
and wherein their abilitie and &s;ufficiencie, is or very po&s;&s;ibly may
be &s;ufficiently knowne; But Parliamentarie &s;ervice or imployment
con&s;i&s;ting (according to Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> notion) as well in making
<HI>Church-lawes, in matters of Religion, wor&s;hip, &amp; agreeable to the word
of God,</HI> as in framing Laws politique, to accommodate the civill af|faires
of the Common-wealth (which are imployments of a very
differing nature, hardly incident unto, and very rarely found in
one and the &s;ame per&s;on) it mu&s;t needs be conceived to be a mat|ter
of very great difficultie, and requiring a very choyce and excel|lent
&s;pirit of di&s;cerning, to make a commendable, yea, or a com|petent
choice of men for that inve&s;titure and tru&s;t. Yea, him&s;elf
<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 word"> acknowledgeth little le&s;&s;e then an utter incon&s;i&s;tencie of re|&s;pective
abilities in one and the &s;ame per&s;on, for the&s;e &s;o different
imployments; For here he requires, both <HI>Politicians and States|men
os fit to be con&s;ulted with a &s;uit a Church-Government to the Ci|vill
State, and likewi&s;e an A&s;&s;embly of Divines, to &s;quare it by, and to
the word.</HI> But in as much as what&s;oever <HI>an A&s;&s;embly of Divines</HI> &s;hall
determine in or about <HI>Churh-Government,</HI> or other <HI>matters of Reli|gion,</HI>
cannot pa&s;&s;e into an Act, Law, or Statute, but by the &s;uper|veening
of Parliamentarie intere&s;t upon their determinations and
there beeing every whit as great (if not farre greater) abilities in
<PB N="83" REF="47">
Divinitie and knowledge of the Scriptures, requi&s;ite to enable men
rightly to di&s;cerne and judge, whether a <HI>Church-Government,</HI> or o|ther
Deci&s;ion in matter of Religion, be agreeable to the word of
God, as there are to di&s;cour&s;e and make out that in either kind
which is agreeable thereunto; yea and further, it being no waies
either Chri&s;tian or rea&s;onable, that a Parliament &s;hould pa&s;&s;e
that into an Act, Law, or Statute, as <HI>agreeable to the word of God,</HI>
and obliege an whole Kingdome under mulcts and penalties to
&s;ubmit unto it accordingly, which them&s;elves are not able to di&s;|cerne
whether it be indeed agreeable unto the word of God, or no;
the&s;e three things (I &s;ay) duly con&s;idered, evident it is, that it is
a matter almo&s;t of infinite difficultie, (and therefore not &s;o obvi|ous
to <HI>un&s;anctified per&s;ons, and rude multitudes,</HI> as Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> would
carrie it) to di&s;cerne or make choice of per&s;ons of a due temper
and compo&s;ition for Parliamentarie operations, Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> &s;up|po&s;ition
being admitted, <HI>viz.</HI> that <HI>making Lawes in matters of Reli|gion,</HI>
as well as in civill affaires, is a part of the&s;e operations. <HI>To
&s;et then his compari&s;on upright, wee mu&s;t &s;tate it thus:</HI> Suppo&s;e Mr.
<HI>Prynne</HI> were of none of the three Profe&s;&s;ions he &s;peaks of, neither
Lawyer, nor Phy&s;ician, nor Architect, but &s;tood in need of the
help of them all, having 1. a &s;uite at Law of very great concern|ment
to him; 2. a dangerous di&s;temper or di&s;ea&s;e upon his body;
3. an hou&s;e to build for his nece&s;&s;ary accommodation; and in this
po&s;ture of nece&s;&s;ities, were nece&s;&s;itated or limited to make choyce
of three men, but all of one and the &s;ame profe&s;&s;ion, either all
Lawyers, or all Phy&s;icians, or all Architects, to mini&s;ter unto him
in all his re&s;pective concernments and nece&s;&s;ities; I beleeve that
under &s;uch a con&s;tellation of circum&s;tances and occa&s;ions as the&s;e,
though he be a man of farre greater <HI>judgement and rea&s;on,</HI> then the
generalitie of men are, yet he would not find it &s;o ea&s;ie a matter
to &s;atisfie him&s;elf in the choyce of his men within the compa&s;&s;e of
any one of the three profe&s;&s;ions. <HI>This is the true &s;tate</HI> and ca&s;e of the
difficultie of Parliamentarie Elections, upon Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> &s;uppo&s;iti|on
of Parliamentarie intere&s;t and power.</P>
<P>4. Suppo&s;e yet further,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 58.</NOTE> that <HI>un&s;anctified per&s;ons and rude multi|tudes
had skill enough to elect the mo&s;t eminent and able&s;t men for</HI> Par|liamentary
<HI>&s;ervice;</HI> yet who knoweth not but that there is &s;ome|what
(yea, much) more then knowledge of what is a mans du|tie,
<PB N="84" REF="48">
required to make him willing to doe it. <HI>To him that knoweth
to doe good, and doth it not, to him it is &s;in</HI> (&s;aith <HI>James) Jam.</HI> 4. 17.
It is no wayes rea&s;onable to think, that <HI>un&s;anctified per&s;ons,</HI> and
men addicted to &s;infull lu&s;ts and plea&s;ures, &s;hould willingly and
by the ducture of their own inclinations, put a power of making
Lawes into the hands of &s;uch men, who they know are profe&s;&s;ed
enemies to tho&s;e lawle&s;&s;e waies of theirs, and therefore are like,
being intere&s;&s;ed in &s;uch a power, to make Lawes for the re&s;traint
and puni&s;hment of them. That God, when he plea&s;eth, may by an
extraordinarie hand of Providence, over-rule the natures and di&s;|po&s;itions
of men in this kind, and &s;erve <HI>unfanctified per&s;ons</HI> in their
Parliamentary Elections, as he did the <HI>Syrian</HI> ho&s;t of old, which he
led blindfold into <HI>the midst of Samaria,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">2 King. 6. 20.</NOTE> when they thought they
had been going to <HI>Dothan,</HI> is not denied; yea, it is acknowledged,
that in grace and mercy to this Nation, he hath &s;tretched out that
very hand of Providence we &s;peake of in the choyce of many mem|bers
of the Honourable A&s;&s;embly of Parliament; who&s;e per&s;eve|rance
in a faithfull di&s;charge of their imployment, declares, that
their Election was more from God, then from men. Therefore
that <HI>one word</HI> of Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> which follows <HI>p. 24. viz.</HI> That <HI>the
choyce which your vile&s;t and mo&s;t unworthy of men have made this Par|liament,
may for ever refute this childi&s;h rea&s;on, the corner &s;tone of your
Independent fabrique fa&s;tened together with Independent crotchets, un|able
to abide the Te&s;t;</HI> this <HI>one word</HI> (I &s;ay) is no <HI>word</HI> either of rea|&s;on
or of truth. An happy election made by men over-acted by
God in the action, doth no more prove either a proportionable|ne&s;&s;e
of wi&s;dome, or a &s;utablene&s;&s;e of affection in &s;uch per&s;ons to
make &s;uch a choyce, then that prai&s;e which God <HI>hath ordained,</HI>
and which he accordingly draws <HI>out of the mouths of babes and &s;uck|lings,</HI>
proves the&s;e <HI>babes and &s;ucklings</HI> to be indued with a naturall
&s;trength and abilitie of yeelding &s;uch <HI>prai&s;e</HI> unto God: or then
the &s;ervice which the Ravens did the Prophet in bringing unto
him bread and fle&s;h duly morning and evening<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">1 King. 17. 6.</NOTE>, proves that
they had a principle of rea&s;on and under&s;tanding, to know and to
con&s;ider the nece&s;&s;ities of godly and faithfull men; or that &s;uch
men ought to renounce their e&s;tates and callings, and to depend
upon Ravens for their &s;u&s;tenance. And be&s;ides, how doth the <HI>e|lection</HI>
of &s;o many members of this Parliament, who &s;tand by
<PB N="85" REF="48">
their tru&s;t with faithfulne&s;&s;e and honour, more <HI>refute;</HI> then the
<HI>election</HI> of &s;o many unworthy ones, who have not onely turned
their back, but head al&s;o upon both, confirm <HI>my rea&s;on?</HI> not to
mention &s;o many <HI>elections</HI> as have been made both in Queen <HI>Ma|ries</HI>
dayes, and many a time before the&s;e, of &s;uch members, who
made many a <HI>Law as agreeable to the Word of God,</HI> as harp is to har|row.
Which further &s;hews, of how &s;lender e&s;teeme in point of
truth, that a&s;&s;ertion of his <HI>pa.</HI> 23. is: where he &s;aith, <HI>that tho&s;e that
are unjit or unable to be Members of Parliament them&s;elves, yet have
had wi&s;dom enough in all ages, and e&s;pecially at this pre&s;ent, to elect the
mu&s;t eminent and able&s;t men for &s;uch a &s;ervice.</HI> So that if my pen were
not more ba&s;hfull then Mr. <HI>Prynnes,</HI> it would &s;ay, that the Rea&s;on
Defendant is by many degrees more <HI>childi&s;h</HI> then the Rea&s;on Plain|tiffe:
and that this <HI>Presbyterian</HI> engins wherewith he makes account
to batter my <HI>Independent Fabrick,</HI> are made of <HI>Independent</HI> metall,
able to do no execution at all. There is not one brick or tyle in all
my <HI>Independent Fabrick,</HI> as yet brui&s;ed, crack'd or &s;haken, by all the
hot and loud play of Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> artillery again&s;t it. But</P>
<P>5.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 59.</NOTE> <HI>Whereas in further pro&s;ecution of this la&s;t rea&s;on, he argues
thus:</HI> If the common people, which neither are, nor can be Parliaments,
Emperours, Kings, Judges, Magi&s;trates, Mini&s;ters, have yet a lawfull
power to make others &s;uch, by their bare election, &amp; to give them &s;uch Au|thority
and power as them&s;elves never actually were, nor can be po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ors
of; then why by the &s;elf &s;ame rea&s;on may they not likewi&s;e delegate a law|ful
Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Legi&s;lative Authoritie in Church affairs to their elected
Parliamentary and Synodicall members, which was never actually in
them&s;elves, as well as Mr. Goodwin delegate the power of determining who
&s;hould be fit per&s;ons to receive the Sacrament, and to become members of
his Independent Congregation, to eight &s;elect Sub&s;titutes, which was ne|ver
actually ve&s;ted in him&s;elf, nor transferible thus to others by any Law
of God, or man? <HI>In an&s;wer (pa&s;&s;ing by the Grammatical illegality
of the period</HI>)</P>
<P>1. That Mr. <HI>Goodwin</HI> never <HI>delegated the power he</HI> &s;peaks of, <HI>of
determining who,</HI> &amp;c. to any Sub&s;titutes; but this <HI>delegation</HI> was
made re&s;pectively by tho&s;e, who had <HI>power,</HI> (yea haply and dutie
too) <HI>by the Law</HI> of God, and <HI>power</HI> &s;ufficient <HI>by the Law of man,</HI> to
referre them&s;elves for matter of examination and triall touching
their <HI>fitne&s;&s;e for the Sacrament,</HI> unto per&s;ons of competent abilities
<PB N="86" REF="49">
for &s;uch a Chri&s;tian &s;ervice. Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> pen is (I think) the mo&s;t
unhappie and un-&s;ucce&s;&s;efull in matters of impeachment and
charge, that ever conte&s;ted again&s;t the mi&s;demeanors of men; it
&s;eldome or never lays the indictment right. Here he chargeth me
with <HI>delegating</HI> &s;uch and &s;uch a <HI>power to eight Substitutes;</HI> a little
after, that <HI>I have wilfully, yea and pre&s;umptuou&s;ly undermined the un|doubted
priviledges of Parliament by the very roots:</HI> a little before, that
I <HI>&s;candalou&s;ly terme the Commonaltie of the Land, the vile&s;t and mo&s;t
unworthy of men:</HI> not long before this (<HI>viz.</HI> pa. 21.) that I <HI>preach but
&s;eldome to my Pari&s;hioners: that I receive their tithes: that I gather an
Independent Congregation to my &s;elf:</HI> that <HI>I pre&s;cribe a Covenant unto
them before they be admitted members of it:</HI> that <HI>I preach to the&s;e alone,
neglecting my Pari&s;hioners,</HI> &amp;c. in all which &s;ugge&s;tions and charges
there is but one and the &s;ame proportion of love and truth.</P>
<P>2. Whereas he &s;uppo&s;eth that <HI>the common people, by their bare ele|ction,
give &s;uch an Authority and power, to Parliaments, Emperours,
Kings, &amp;c. as them&s;elves never actually were, nor can be po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ours of;</HI>
he doth not (I conceive) &s;peak like a man of his profe&s;&s;ion; cer|tain
I am, that he doth not &s;peak the truth; no, nor yet the
thoughts of men of learning and judgement in the point. For 1.
(to rea&s;on the ca&s;e a little in point of truth) if the common peo|ple
were not <HI>actually po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ed of that Authority and power, which by
their election they give to Parliaments, Emperours, Kings, &amp;c.</HI> I de|mand,
how, or after what manner they were <HI>po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ed of it?</HI> For in
&s;aying, <HI>they were not ACTVALLY po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ed of it,</HI> he &s;uppo&s;es and
grants, that they were &s;ome wayes or other po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ed of it. No
man excludes one &s;peciall modification from a thing, but for the
gratification of another. Now then if <HI>the common people were not
ACTVALLY po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ed</HI> of that Authority and power which by their
election they give unto Parliaments, Emperours, <HI>&amp;c.</HI> they were onely
<HI>potentially po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ed</HI> of it. For <HI>actually and potentially,</HI> are <HI>oppo&s;ita;</HI>
yea and of that kind which they call <HI>oppo&s;ita immediata.</HI> So that
what&s;oever is had or po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ed by any, and not <HI>actually,</HI> mu&s;t of ne|ce&s;&s;iue
be had or po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ed <HI>potentially,</HI> and <HI>potentially</HI> onely (at lea&s;t
in re&s;pect of an <HI>actuall</HI> po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ion.) Now then I rea&s;on fir&s;t thus: If
the <HI>people</HI> have <HI>that power</HI> though not <HI>actually,</HI> yet potentially,
which <HI>by their election they give to Parliaments, Emperours, Kings, &amp;c.</HI>
then are they capable of it even <HI>actually</HI> al&s;o; which yet Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI>
<PB N="87" REF="49">
here plainly denies, in the&s;e words, <HI>Nor can be po&s;&s;e&s;&s;ours of.</HI> The
con&s;equence is undeniable: For what&s;oever any entire &s;ubject
hath, or is, <HI>potenti&acirc;;</HI> there is no impo&s;&s;ibilitie but that it may have,
or be, <HI>actu,</HI> or actually. So that Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> is here upon the matter
in an ab&s;olute contradiction. For he &s;uppo&s;eth that the people
may have that Authoritie or power <HI>potentially,</HI> which yet he &s;aith
is unpo&s;&s;ible they &s;hould ever have actually. Again, I would wil|lingly
for the bettering of mine under&s;tanding, know and learn,
how any per&s;on, or other Agent what&s;oever, can <HI>actually</HI> conferre
that upon, or communicate that unto another, which it hath one|ly
<HI>potentially</HI> it &s;elf. Water, while&s;t it is <HI>actually</HI> cold, and onely
<HI>potentially</HI> hot, cannot heat that which is put into it. Nor can a
man that is <HI>actually</HI> ignorant of &s;uch or &s;uch a truth, and <HI>potenti|ally</HI>
onely knowing it, <HI>actually</HI> communicate or impart the know|ledge
thereof unto another, by vertue of that <HI>potentiall</HI> knowledge
which he hath. No more can a <HI>people</HI> that is onely <HI>potentially po&s;|&s;e&s;&s;ed
of any Authority or power, actually give</HI> or conferre it upon any,
whether <HI>Parliaments, Emperours, Kings, &amp;c.</HI> The ground of all
&s;uch con&s;equences as the&s;e, is that common principle or maxime in
rea&s;on: <HI>Modus operandi &s;equitur modum e&s;&s;endi.</HI> Things that have
but a weak or imperfect being them&s;elves, cannot give &s;trength or
perfection of being unto others. But had Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> &s;aid the body
of a Nation have that authority really, vertually, eminently, and
collectively, which they cannot have formally, di&s;tributively, and
exemptively; I &s;hould have had the le&s;&s;e to &s;ay unto him.</P>
<P>For the judgement of men learned in matters of this concern|ment;
he that &s;hall plea&s;e to read the Di&s;cour&s;e of <HI>Chri&s;tophorus
Be&s;oldus,</HI> intituled, <HI>Di&s;&s;ertatio Politico-Juridica de Maje&s;tate in ge|nere,
&amp;c.</HI> &s;hall find a little Jurie of Lawyers joyning with him in
the verdict of his judgement upon the ca&s;e; the tenor whereof is,
that there is not onely an Authoritie or power, but (that which is
&s;omewhat more) a <HI>maje&s;tie</HI> al&s;o <HI>in the people, which is coevall with
the Republique or common-wealth it &s;elf; and which continues as long
as the body thereof remains, yea and &s;tands firm under all vacancies of
Per&s;onall Empire, and all alterations and changes of Government: in
which re&s;pect he &s;aith it may be called the foundation or ground-work of
the Common-wealth.</HI> This maje&s;tie in the people he cals, <HI>Reall;</HI> that
<HI>in the King</HI> or chief Ruler, <HI>Per&s;onall:</HI> this he &s;aith, <HI>&s;till fals and ex|pires
<PB N="88" REF="50">
with the death of the per&s;on inve&s;red with it; and returns</HI> to the
people, or <HI>commonwealth.</HI> Yea and adds, that <HI>the people in</HI> making
or &s;etting up a King over them, <HI>transferre onely a power of admini|&s;tring,
not of con&s;tituting the common-wealth.</HI> With more to like ef|fect
<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Ea&abque; (ma|je&s;tas) <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 span"> quae in con&s;tanend&acirc;) &amp; per&s;onalem, (quae in administrand&acirc; &s;eu gubernand&acirc; Republic&acirc; con&s;i&s;tit) dividi videtur. Et meat Maje&s;tas Realis &s;eu Imper<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">, Republicae e&s;t coaeva; quamdiu corpus ejus durat, per manet: &amp; etiam &s;ub inter regnis &amp; alterationibus per&s;i&s;tit: quam ide&ograve; fundamentum Republicae po&s;&s;u|<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="2 letters"> are. Per&s;onalis conci<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="2 letters"> cum per&s;on&acirc;, &amp; ad Rempublicam redit. Hujus maje&s;tatis <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 span"> etiam po&s;t <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 word"> Legem, populum Romanum aliquam retinue&s;&s;e dicitur maje&s;tatem. &sect; 4. <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 span"> c. l. 7. &sect; <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 span"> maj &s;tatem no&s;tram. F. de captiv. &amp; po&s;tium. l. 1. <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 span"> Maje&s;tatem publica ad L. Iulia~ maje&s;t. Lex nam&abque; Regia de per&s;onalis <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 span"> is tran&s;latione intell g<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">debet: ego in tract. de monarchia cap. 4. num 4. ac <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 span"> per eam populus pote&s;tatem admini&s;trationis, non con&s;titutionis. Et con&s;tat ex l. 2 &sect; 1. <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 span"> administrationem Re publicae, non aliqu<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">d ultr&agrave;, Imperatori datum e&s;&s;e. Chri&s;toph. <GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 span"> De&s;&s;<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="2 letters"> Politico-<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 word"> de Maje&s;tate, &amp;c. Sect. 1. p. 5.</NOTE> Therefore the opinion of this man with his A&s;&s;ociates
clearly is, that the people have <HI>Really or actually,</HI> that Authority or
power which <HI>by their election they</HI> transfer upon, <HI>or derive unto</HI> their
Rulers and Governours.</P>
<P>3. (<HI>And la&s;tly, for this) whereas he affirmeth, that &s;uch a power,
as he &s;uppo&s;eth to have been delegated by me</HI> to eight Sub&s;titutes, is
not tran&s;crible to others by any Law of God or man; <HI>and yet demands,</HI>
Why the common people may not as well delegate a Lawfull Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall
legi&s;lative Authoritie in Church-affaires unto their elected Parliamen|tarie
and Synodall members, as I delegate &s;uch a power; <HI>I an&s;wer and
confe&s;&s;e, that they may every whit as well (and no whit better</HI>)
delegate &s;uch an Authoritie to &s;uch their members, <HI>as I</HI> delegate <HI>&s;uch a
power to my Sub&s;titutes.</HI></P>
<P>6. <HI>Whereas in pro&s;ecution of his la&s;t argument,</HI><NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 60.</NOTE> <HI>he further ar|gues
and interrogates thus;</HI> Why may not a man bring an Eccle&s;ia&s;ti|call
or &s;pirituall extraction out of a &s;ecular roote, as well as a Regall,
Magi&s;teriall, Parliamentall, Mini&s;teriall extraction out of a meere po|pular
or &s;ervile roote? or the be&s;t &s;trong waters out of the vile&s;t lees?
the riche&s;t mineralls out of the cour&s;e&s;t earth? the mo&s;t Orient pearles, out
of the ba&s;e&s;t Oy&s;ters? <HI>I an&s;wer,</HI></P>
<P>1. That no <HI>Regall, Magi&s;teriall, Parliamentall, Mini&s;teriall ex|traction
can be made out of a meere &s;ervile roote.</HI> A people <HI>meerely &s;ervile,</HI>
can have no libertie or power to appoint or chu&s;e unto them&s;elves
either Kings, Ma&s;ters, Parliaments, or Mini&s;ters. Therefore Mr.
<PB N="89" REF="50">
<HI>Prynnes</HI> Que&s;tion very truly imports, that the one <HI>extraction</HI> may
<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 letter">s well be made, as the other; but it no waies proves a po&s;&s;ibilitie
of either.</P>
<P>2. There is a plain rea&s;on, why and how a <HI>Regall, Magi&s;teriall,
Parliamentall extraction may be made out of a popular roote:</HI> but there
is a loud reclamation in rea&s;on and Religion both, again&s;t a po&s;|&s;ibilitie
of making a <HI>&s;pirituall extraction out of a &s;ecular roote. Regall,
Magi&s;teriall, Parliamentall extractions,</HI> are in their re&s;pective natures
and tendencies, means proportioned to the civill and temporall
ends, or good of the people; and God having endued men, (I
meane the common &s;ort or generalitie of men, <HI>the people</HI>) with wi&s;|dome
and under&s;tanding to accommodate and provide for them|&s;elves
in &s;uch things as the&s;e, hath given them power accordingly
to make u&s;e of &s;uch principles and endowments in a regular way,
for the accompli&s;hment and obtaining of &s;uch ends. Now civill
Rule and Government being a naturall, proper, and direct means,
whereby a good &s;ocietie or communitie of men may be&s;t obtaine a
civill or politique good, <HI>viz.</HI> a &s;afe, ju&s;t, and peaceable living and
conver&s;ing together in the world; God therefore hath given them
a libertie and power to contrive and ca&s;t them&s;elves into what
forme of Government they &s;hould judge mo&s;t conducible to &s;uch
ends. Upon which indulgence or grant from Heaven, they have a
lawfull power by con&s;ent among them&s;elves to elect and chu&s;e
whom they plea&s;e to governe them, and that upon &s;uch terms, as
they conceive mo&s;t agreeable to tho&s;e ends. And yet even in this
Government it &s;elf, one communitie or corporation of men have
no right or lawfulne&s;&s;e of power, to chu&s;e or appoint either Go|vernment,
or Governors over another: lea&s;t of all hath any com|munitie,
con&s;i&s;ting of men altogether uncivill, ignorant, and un|experienced
in matters of Government, any lawfulne&s;&s;e of power
to appoint either Rule or Rulers over other Societies, who&s;e mem|bers
generally are of a better accompli&s;hment, for civilitie, &amp; parts
of wi&s;dome, learning, and under&s;tanding; But all &s;ocieties of men
&s;ince the di&s;&s;olution of the Judaicall politie, are left free by God
and nature, to &s;et over them&s;elves what Government and Gover|nors
they &s;hall judge of be&s;t accommodation, for their temporall
&s;afety and peace. But now in &s;pirituall things, and matters of Re|ligion,
the ca&s;e is farre otherwi&s;e; differing as much from the for|mer,
<PB N="90" REF="51">
as the Heavens from the Earth. God hath not endued the ge|neralitie
of men with &s;pirituall wi&s;dome and under&s;tanding, nor
with the knowledge of tho&s;e things which are of a &s;upernaturall
concernment unto them; and con&s;equently hath not inve&s;ted them
with any power of ca&s;ting them&s;elves into what forme of Govern|ment
they plea&s;e in re&s;pect of the&s;e, nor of chu&s;ing whom they
plea&s;e to rule over them, no nor yet of appointing upon what
terms they will be governed in the&s;e. <HI>The naturall man</HI> (&s;aith the
Scripture) <HI>perceiveth not</HI> (or, receiveth not) <HI>the things of the Spi|rit
of God; for they are fooli&s;hne&s;&s;e unto him: neither can he know them,
becau&s;e they are &s;piritually di&s;cerned,</HI> 1 Cor. 2. 14. Now certaine it is,
that the farre greater part of men in every State Politique or King|dome,
are <HI>naturall</HI> men, and con&s;equently <HI>perceive not the things of
the Spirit of God. Many are called,</HI> (&s;aith our Saviour) <HI>but few cho&s;en.</HI>
And 2. as certaine it is, that God doth not intere&s;&s;e or inve&s;t any
man or men, with a power of interpo&s;ing in &s;uch things, which are
not of their cognizance, and whereof they have no knowledge or
perceivance. Much le&s;&s;e 3. hath he given a power to <HI>naturall men
who perceive not the things of the Spirit of God,</HI> to appoint Rulers and
Governors in the&s;e, over men that are <HI>&s;pirituall,</HI> and which doe
<HI>perceive</HI> them. This were to give a power unto <HI>the blind, to lead</HI> not
the <HI>blind</HI> onely, but even <HI>the &s;eeing</HI> al&s;o. Nay, 4. and la&s;tly, God
hath not given unto <HI>&s;pirituall men</HI> them&s;elves any power to nomi|nate
or chu&s;e men, to make any new Lawes or Articles in matters
of <HI>Religion, Wor&s;hip, Church-Government, &amp;c.</HI> but onely to admini|&s;ter,
execute and teach tho&s;e, which are already ordained and e&s;ta|bli&s;hed
by God him&s;elf, as hath been prov'd already. Thus then
we &s;ee there is rea&s;on enough and to &s;pare, why &s;uch <HI>a &s;pirituall ex|traction</HI>
as the two Brethren &s;peak of, cannot be made <HI>out of a &s;ecu|lar
roote;</HI> though <HI>a Regall, Magi&s;teriall, Parliamentall extraction,</HI>
may well be <HI>made out of a popular roote.</HI> But</P>
<P>3. Whereas Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> &s;uppo&s;eth that a <HI>Mini&s;teriall Extraction</HI>
(as he calleth it) is, or may be <HI>made out of a meere popular or &s;ervile
roote,</HI> this &s;uppo&s;ition is not made without oppo&s;ition to the truth.
For no <HI>people</HI> or men, <HI>meerly</HI> &s;uch, that is, as they are &s;imply <HI>people</HI>
or men, have any power delegated unto them by God or by Chri&s;t,
to &s;et a Mini&s;ter or Pa&s;tor over them; neither can they as meerly
&s;uch, by any call, election, or ordination what&s;oever, conferre a
<PB N="91" REF="51">
Pa&s;torall office or dignitie upon any man. The rea&s;on is, becau&s;e
it is an e&s;&s;entiall propertie or part of the Pa&s;torall office, to feed,
rule, and governe a flock of Chri&s;ts &s;heep<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 2.</NOTE>, (I meane a Societie,
or company of &s;uch per&s;ons, who in the judgement of charitie are
to be reputed &s;uch) and to admini&s;ter the &s;eales of the Covenant
ordinarily unto them, &amp;c. Now no company of men, meerly and
&s;imply as men, have any power to inve&s;t any man, with any autho|ritative
power to performe either of tho&s;e admini&s;trations. One
company or &s;ocietie of men however qualified, cannot derive any
Authoritative power upon any man, to performe the office of a
Pa&s;tor to another &s;ocietie of men. Therefore except that company
of men, which calls and chu&s;eth a per&s;on into the place or office
of a Pa&s;tor (as it &s;uppo&s;eth) be &s;uch a flock of Chri&s;t as was ex|pre&s;&s;ed,
their act in &s;o calling and chu&s;ing, is but a nullitie; the per|&s;on
called hath indeed and in truth no Pa&s;torall inve&s;titure upon
him by vertue of &s;uch a call. As for example; Suppo&s;e a company
of ignorantly prophane, and de&s;perately debauch'd men, &s;hould
make choyce of a man of worth, to be a Pa&s;tor unto them; the man
thus called and cho&s;en, hath no authoritie or power hereby, either
to feed or govern any flock of Chri&s;t, (no, not &s;o much as any flock
of Chri&s;t in appearance) or to admini&s;ter the &s;eales of the Cove|nant
unto any; and con&s;equently is made no Pa&s;tor thereby.</P>
<P>Or if Mr. <HI>Prynnes</HI> meaning be, that <HI>a root meerly popular,</HI> that is,
any company of people what&s;oever, may lawfully call or chu&s;e a
man to preach the Go&s;pel unto them, and in this &s;en&s;e be &s;aid to
make a Mini&s;ter; I an&s;wer; that the man thus called, is no more
a Mini&s;ter then he was before; nor hath he any more <HI>Authorita|tive
power</HI> to preach the Go&s;pel unto them, by vertue of &s;uch a call,
then he had without it; onely he hath thereby a greater opportu|nitie,
and a more &s;peciall invitation from the providence of God
to preach the Go&s;pel unto tho&s;e who &s;o call him, then unto others.
Therefore in this ca&s;e there is <HI>no mini&s;teriall extraction</HI> made out of
a <HI>meere popular roote.</HI></P>
<P>4. <HI>Whereas</HI> he &s;peaks parables,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 61.</NOTE> <HI>and further demands,</HI> Why not a
&s;pirituall extraction out of a &s;ecular roote, as well as the be&s;t &s;trong waters
out of the vile&s;t lees? the riche&s;t mineralls out of the cour&s;e&s;t earth? the
mo&s;t Orient pearles out of the ba&s;e&s;t Oy&s;ters? <HI>I an&s;wer,</HI></P>
<P>1. That I know not by what rule of true &s;peaking, Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI>
<PB N="92" REF="52">
either calls tho&s;e the <HI>ba&s;e&s;t oy&s;ters,</HI> out of which the <HI>mo&s;t orient pearls,</HI>
or that the <HI>cour&s;e&s;t earth,</HI> out of which <HI>the riche&s;t mineralls,</HI> or tho&s;e
the <HI>vile&s;t lees,</HI> out of which <HI>the be&s;t &s;trong waters</HI> are extracted. That
expre&s;&s;ion of the Poet,&mdash;<HI>Veios habitante Camillo, &mdash;<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="1 word"> Ro|ma
fuit,</HI> I never yet heard cen&s;ured by any. Noble births and inha|bitants,
ennoble Cities and Countries.<NOTE PLACE="marg">Mat. 2. 6.</NOTE> <HI>And thou Bethlehem in the
land of Juda, art not the lea&s;t among the Princes of Juda: for out of thee
&s;hall come a Governor that &s;hall rule my people I&s;rael.</HI> By the con&s;ent of
this principle, which hath te&s;timony both from God and men,
tho&s;e are not the <HI>ba&s;e&s;t,</HI> but the noble&s;t <HI>oy&s;ters,</HI> which give birth and
breeding to the <HI>mo&s;t ortent pearles;</HI> nor that the <HI>cour&s;e&s;t,</HI> but the fine&s;t
and be&s;t <HI>earth,</HI> that yeelds <HI>the riche&s;t mineralls;</HI> nor tho&s;e the <HI>vile&s;t,</HI>
but the mo&s;t generous and be&s;t de&s;erving <HI>lees,</HI> which gratifie their
Di&s;tillator with the <HI>be&s;t &s;trong waters.</HI> But</P>
<P>2. (Not to impo&s;e any tax upon an acyrologie) there is this
plain rea&s;on, why <HI>no &s;pirituall extraction out of a &s;ecular roote,</HI> though
all tho&s;e other <HI>extractions</HI> may be made out of tho&s;e re&s;pective <HI>roots</HI>
appropriated unto them: becau&s;e a man may very po&s;&s;ibly find a
thing where it is; but it is unpo&s;&s;ible for him to find it where it is
not. A man may very ea&s;ily and very lawfully <HI>extract</HI> five &s;hillings
out of his pur&s;e that hath five &s;hillings, or more, in it: but he that
&s;hall undertake to make an <HI>extraction</HI> of five &s;hillings, out of a pur&s;e
that is emptie, mu&s;t <HI>Acheronta movere,</HI> make him&s;elf a debtor to the
black art. The <HI>pearle</HI> is in the <HI>oy&s;ter,</HI> and the <HI>minerall in the Earth,</HI>
and the <HI>&s;trong water</HI> in the <HI>lee:</HI> and therefore it is no great matter
for art and nature joyning together, partly by allurement and in|vitation,
partly by a &s;tronger and more forcible hand, to &s;eque|&s;ter
all the&s;e from their native and proper elements, and to draw
them out of their dark and &s;ecret habitations. Nor is it any waies
unlawfull thus to practi&s;e upon them, becau&s;e God hath not &s;erv'd
any prohibition upon men, to inhibite any &s;uch extractions or
&s;eparations, either in a naturall or artificiall way. But there
is no &s;uch <HI>&s;pirituall extraction</HI> as the two Brethren &s;peak of, in
their <HI>&s;ecular roote:</HI> there is no <HI>Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall Legi&s;lative power in
matters of Religion, wor&s;hip, and Church-Government,</HI> neither for|mally,
nor eminently, in <HI>un&s;anctified per&s;ons, rude multitudes,</HI> men
ignorant of God, &amp;c. therefore no &s;uch power can by any <HI>ex|traction</HI>
what&s;oever, proceed or be drawne out of the&s;e. There
<PB N="93" REF="52">
is indeed a lawfulne&s;&s;e of power in them (if they had a princi|ple
to incline them to the due exerci&s;e of it) to a&s;&s;i&s;t the &s;ervants
of God again&s;t violence and wrong, to incourage and counte|nance
them in well-doing, to admoni&s;h and reprove them for do|ing
any &s;uch evill which falls within the compa&s;&s;e of their cogni|ance;
yea, there is a lawfulne&s;&s;e of power in them, if they have
not given it out of their hands already, and inve&s;ted others with
it, to make Lawes for the regulation of the Saints them&s;elves, in all
their civill affaires, and to re&s;traine them by mulcts and penalties
from all &s;uch cour&s;es, actions, and practices, which are properly
and in their natures di&s;&s;erviceable unto the common peace,
and weal-publick: And all &s;uch power as this, they may lawfully
devi&s;e, and demi&s;e unto per&s;ons meet for the manage and exerci&s;e
of it; becau&s;e in this ca&s;e they doe but give of their own; yea, they
give it in a regular and rationall way; upon which termes
God hath given unto every man a liberty or power <HI>to doe with his
owne what he plea&s;eth</HI><NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Mat. 20. 15.</NOTE>. But the per&s;ons we now &s;peak of, never had
a power of regulating the Saints in their Religious or Spirituall af|fairs;
or of compelling them under temporal mulcts and penalties,
to order them&s;elves in the wor&s;hip and &s;ervice of God, as they
plea&s;ed, or to preach and teach onely &s;uch points and doctrines a|mong&s;t
them, as they &s;hould think well of. Therefore how they
&s;hould convey or make over any &s;uch power as this unto others,
by a Title or Conveyance good in Law, I de&s;ire Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> to con|&s;ider.
If his de&s;ire had been to have paralleld the Brethrens <HI>&s;piri|tuall
extraction out of a Secular root,</HI> with naturall compari&s;ons or
&s;imilitudes, he &s;hould have done it not with tho&s;e which hee hath
made u&s;e of in this kind, or the like; for we have &s;hewed a manife&s;t
and main di&s;proportion in them; but with the&s;e, and &s;uch as the&s;e
which follow: <HI>Why not a &s;pirituall extraction out of a Secular root,</HI>
as well as a man out of a mou&s;e, or of water out of a flint, or of
the element of fire out of the mid&s;t of the Sea? He might rational|ly
enough have argued and concluded here; <HI>Why not the one as well
as the other?</HI> But</P>
<P>5. Whereas his Margine demandeth, <HI>Why not a &s;pirituall extra|ction
out of a &s;ecular root, as well as him&s;elfe extracts many &s;piritual do|ctrines
out of Gamaliels Secular &s;peech?</HI> My an&s;wer is, that hee hath
made this demand at the perill of his owne reputation in what he
<PB N="94" REF="53">
had &s;aid but in the former page, where he &s;uppo&s;eth, that <HI>God powred
out a &s;pirit of prophe&s;ie upon Gamaliel,</HI> as hee had formerly done <HI>upon
Balaam</HI> and <HI>Saul,</HI> If <HI>Gamaliel</HI> &s;pake as <HI>the &s;pirit of prophe&s;ie</HI> which
<HI>was poured out upon him, gave him utterance,</HI> his &s;peech was not <HI>&s;ecu|lar,</HI>
but <HI>&s;pirituall</HI> and divine. And</P>
<P>2. Suppo&s;e there was no <HI>&s;pirit of prophe&s;ie</HI> upon <HI>Gamaliel,</HI> when
he &s;pake that <HI>&s;peech,</HI> from which <HI>I extract</HI> my <HI>Doctrines;</HI> yet the <HI>&s;peech</HI>
it &s;elfe, being for the matter, tenor, and &s;ub&s;tance of it, nothing
but what is fully agreeable to the undoubted word of God el&s;e|where,
(which I clearly demon&s;trate in the particular doctrine
handled in tho&s;e Sermons) it is not to be reputed <HI>Secular,</HI> though
the per&s;on &s;peaking it had been <HI>Secular;</HI> but <HI>Divine,</HI> becau&s;e the
matter of it being a truth of <HI>Divine</HI> revelation el&s;where, is <HI>Divine.</HI>
This &s;aying, Je&s;us Chri&s;t is <HI>the Sanne of God,</HI> or <HI>the holy One of God,</HI>
is not, therefore a Devili&s;h &s;aying, becau&s;e the Devill &s;pake it<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Mark. 1. 24. Luke 4. 34.</NOTE>, but
an holy or divine &s;aying or &s;entence, becau&s;e the truth contained
in it, which is the matter of it, is from God.</P>
<P>But 3. the per&s;on &s;peaking it was Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall, a Doctor of the
Law, Acts 5. 34.</P>
<P>4. And la&s;tly, it was about matters of the Church, and &s;o Ec|cle&s;ia&s;ticall
al&s;o.</P>
<P>6. <HI>Whereas in the context of the &s;ame margine, hee calls</HI> my
principall Argument (<HI>as he calls it) drawn from the</HI> non-juri&s;diction
of the &s;even Churches of A&s;ia one over another, a meer Independencie, <HI>gi|ving
this for the ground or rea&s;on of this &s;o &s;evere an award, that
the&s;e Churches</HI> were under different civill Dominions, and not members
of the &s;elfe-&s;ame Chri&s;tian Republicke; <HI>I an&s;wer,</HI></P>
<P>1. That why he &s;hould call this my <HI>principall Argument,</HI> which
I doe not &s;o much as mention, nor make any argument at all (as
lea&s;t in tho&s;e Sermons again&s;t which his pen ri&s;eth up in this di&s;|cour&s;e
with &s;o much indignation) I am behind hand in my under|&s;tanding.
I &s;uppo&s;e he would willingly make that my <HI>principall
Argument,</HI> from the dint whereof he knowes how to contrive &s;ome
plau&s;ible eva&s;ion and e&s;cape. It was an whol&s;ome admonition of
<HI>Au&s;tin</HI> long &s;ince,<NOTE N="a" PLACE="marg">Procliviores &s;umus quaere|re poti&ugrave;s, quid contra ea re|&s;pondeamus, &mdash;quae no&s;tro ob|jiciuntur erro|ri, qu&agrave;m in|tendere ea quae &s;unt &s;alubria, ut careamus errore.</NOTE> <HI>That we are very inclinable and prone, rather to
&s;eeke out how to an&s;wer or evade tho&s;e things which are brought to re|fute
our error, then to minde that which is whol&s;ome, that &s;o wee may bee
free from error.</HI> But</P>
<P><PB N="95" REF="53">
2. If that be a rea&s;on, why <HI>the Churches in A&s;ia had no juri&s;dicti|on
one over another,</HI> becau&s;e <HI>they were not members of the &s;elfe-&s;ame
Chri&s;tian Republicke;</HI> then neither had the Church of <HI>Jeru&s;alem</HI> ei|ther
<HI>divi&s;im,</HI> and by it &s;elfe, nor yet <HI>conjuncti<GAP DESC="illegible" EXTENT="2 letters"></HI> with others, any
power of <HI>juri&s;diction</HI> over the Church of <HI>Antioch.</HI> For neither
were their Churches <HI>members of the &s;elfe-&s;ame Chri&s;tian Republicke,</HI>
no nor yet any other Churches in the Apo&s;tles dayes, there being
then no <HI>Chri&s;tian Republick</HI> in the world.</P>
<P>3. Neither can I well under&s;tand how the &s;even Churches of
<HI>A&s;ia</HI> &s;hould be <HI>under different civill dominions,</HI> when as one and the
&s;ame man had power to command that <HI>all the world &s;hould be taxed,
Luke</HI> 2. 1. Certain I am, that Mr. <HI>Pryn</HI> doth not befriend either his
owne exception, or my under&s;tanding &s;o farre, as to inform what
the&s;e <HI>different civill dominions were;</HI> or under what or who&s;e domi|nion
every or any of the&s;e Churches did re&s;pectively con&s;i&s;t. The
con&s;ideration whereof moderately inclines me to conceive, that he
put this peece of his an&s;wer to the making, and affirmed it onely
<HI>de bene e&s;&s;e,</HI> that <HI>the &s;even Churches of A&s;ia were under different civill
dominions.</HI> Is it not much more probable, that the Churches of
<HI>Jeru&s;alem</HI> and <HI>Antioch,</HI> which yet by the A&s;&s;ertors of Presbytery,
are generally and with importune confidence made confederate in
Cla&s;&s;ique a&s;&s;ociation, were <HI>under different civill dominions?</HI> Con&s;i|dering,
1. that their Cities were two hundred miles di&s;tant one
from the other (a di&s;tance greater almo&s;t by an hundred miles,
then any two of the &s;even Churches of <HI>A&s;ia</HI> &s;tood one from the o|ther,
as will appear pre&s;ently.) And 2. that <HI>Judea</HI> was an intire
Province by it &s;elf, &amp; Luke 3. 1. is &s;aid to have been under the go|vernment
of <HI>Pontias Pilate.</HI> So that <HI>&s;ubjection under different civill
dominions,</HI> is not like to have been any ob&s;truction in the way of
tho&s;e <HI>A&s;ian</HI> Churches, to impede their Presbyteriall conjunction,
had they felt the weight either of divine in&s;titution, or of any
Chri&s;tian accommodation of their re&s;pective affaires, lying upon
them for the ingaging them&s;elves in it.</P>
<P>4. And la&s;tly, &s;ome that &s;eeme to have perfect knowledge of
tho&s;e parts where the&s;e <HI>&s;even Churches</HI> with their re&s;pective Cities
&s;tood, affirme that &s;ome of them were not &s;ituate above twelve
miles di&s;tance from &s;ome others of them; and that the greate&s;t di|&s;tance
between any two of them, was not above an hundred and
<PB N="96" REF="54">
twenty miles, which is not the one half of the di&s;tance between ma|ny
Churches in this Kingdom. So that had the Presbyteriall com|bination
or &s;ubordination of Churches been an ordinance of
God, there is little que&s;tion to be made, but that the&s;e Churches
with their re&s;pective Angels, e&s;pecially under &s;uch an opportunity,
would have &s;ubjected them&s;elves unto the will of God in this be|halfe,
and not have remained &s;ingle and uncombined in their go|vernment,
as they did.</P>
<P>If it be objected, they were times of per&s;ecution; wee an&s;wer,
So were they afterward, when (as men of the Presbyterian way
&s;uppo&s;e) they had Presbyteries; and after that when they had E|pi&s;copall
government. This hath been the ca&s;e of the Prote&s;tants
in <HI>France,</HI> where they now have, &amp; con&s;tantly have had, a Presbyte|rial
government. So it is of the Papi&s;ts in <HI>England,</HI> where they have
had ever &s;ince the Reformation, a Papall juri&s;diction. And to
&s;peak to the particular, &s;o was it a time of per&s;ecution again&s;t the
Presbyteriall government in Queen <HI>Elizabeths</HI> time, and yet it
was then exerci&s;ed in &s;everall places of this Kingdome. See <HI>Rogers</HI>
Preface to his Analy&s;is of the Articles of Religion.</P>
<P>6. <HI>Whereas he &s;eemes to require a reprievement for his opinion,
onely</HI> till Independents can &s;hew him better grounds again&s;t it,<NOTE PLACE="marg">Sect. 64.</NOTE> then any
yet produced; and informe him why our repre&s;entative Church and State
&s;hould not of right enjoy and exerci&s;e as great or Eccle&s;ia&s;ticall ju|ri&s;diction
over all particular per&s;ons and Churches, who are members of
our Church and Realm, as any Independent Mini&s;ter or Congregation
challenge or u&s;urp unto them&s;elves over their own members, &amp;c. <HI>My an|&s;wer
is,</HI></P>
<P>1. That now I tru&s;t he will willingly &s;urrender his opinion in|to
the hand of Ju&s;tice, and plead no further for it. Fir&s;t, becau&s;e
though haply there have been <HI>no better grounds produced</HI> in this di&s;|cour&s;e
<HI>again&s;t it,</HI> then have been formerly in others; yet I cannot
but conceive and judge, that <HI>better</HI> arguments and <HI>grounds again&s;t
it,</HI> have been here <HI>produced,</HI> then Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> hath had either the
happine&s;&s;e or opportunity to meet with el&s;ewhere; e&s;pecially con|&s;idering
partly the frequencie of his complaint, that <HI>Independents
have given little or no account of their way</HI> in writing; partly that it
is a thing hardly con&s;i&s;tent with Mr. <HI>Pryns</HI> abilities, being &s;weetned
with &s;o much ingenuity, not to &s;ee and acknowledge the delin|quencie
<PB N="97" REF="54">
of &s;uch an <HI>opinion,</HI> in who&s;e condemnation &s;o full a Jury
of the fir&s;t borne principles as well of Rea&s;on as Religion, as hath
been here impannelled, doe con&s;pire. And &s;econdly, becau&s;e <HI>In|formation
hath been given</HI> him again and again (and more particu|larly
in the eighth Section, page 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. of this di&s;cour&s;e) <HI>why
our whole repre&s;entative Church and State;</HI> (though I doe not clearly
under&s;tand what he meanes by <HI>our Repre&s;entative Church</HI> in this
place) but why the Parliament and Synod <HI>&s;hould not exerci&s;e as
great or greater Eccle&s;ia&s;tical juri&s;diction over particular per&s;ons &amp; Chur|ches
within the Realme, &amp;c. as an Independent Mini&s;ter</HI> AND <HI>Con|gregation</HI>
(for his disjunctive particle, <HI>Or,</HI> turnes him quite
out of the way of his que&s;tion) <HI>may exerci&s;e over their owne mem|bers.</HI>
But</P>
<P>2. Whereas he &s;tates the que&s;tion thus: Whether <HI>our Repre&s;en|tative
Church and State, may not exerci&s;e as great or greater Eccle&s;ia&s;ti|call
juri&s;diction over, &amp;c. as an Independent Mini&s;ter or Congregation
challenge or</HI> USURP <HI>unto them&s;elves over their own members;</HI> My
an&s;wer is, that doubtle&s;&s;e they may; one unrighteous or unju&s;t
thing, may be as lawfully done as another every whit as unrigh|teous
and unju&s;t as it. For Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> may plea&s;e to take know|ledge,
that <HI>Independent Mini&s;ters and Congregations</HI> doe not <HI>u&s;urp</HI>
any <HI>power</HI> at all <HI>unto them&s;elves over their own members,</HI> that is, over
them&s;elves; but onely admini&s;ter that regular and lawfull power
over and among&s;t them&s;elves, which every of their re&s;pective
members have mutually and freely given one to another, and every
particular member unto the whole body, over it &s;elfe, and that as
well for its own benefit and behoofe, as for the benefit and good of
the whole body. And lawfull (que&s;tionle&s;&s;e) it is (yea matter of
duty) for every man to give &s;uch a power of, or over him&s;elf, un|to
others, which he hath &s;ufficient ground either from the Scrip|tures,
or rea&s;on otherwi&s;e, to conceive and expect that it will bee
admini&s;tred for his good; e&s;pecially having ground to conceive
yet further, that this act of his, in thus &s;ubmitting him&s;elfe unto
others, will according to the ordinary cour&s;e of Providence and
experience, be of Chri&s;tian accommodation unto others al&s;o for
their good. <HI>Submitting your &s;elves one to another in the feare of God,
Eph.</HI> 5. 21. which &s;ubmi&s;&s;ion doubtle&s;&s;e ought &s;o farre to extend, as
in rea&s;on it may accommodate, or promote the edification and
<PB N="98" REF="55">
&s;pirituall good, both of the per&s;ons by whom, and to whom it is
made. And by the &s;ame rea&s;on it is no <HI>u&s;urpation</HI> in tho&s;e, to whom
the &s;ubmi&s;&s;ion is made, to admini&s;ter or exerci&s;e that power which
is committed unto them, according to the regular intentions of
tho&s;e who have given it: yea, &s;uch an admini&s;tration of it as this,
is &s;o farre from being an <HI>u&s;urpation,</HI> that a non-admini&s;tration of it
upon &s;uch terms, would be a very unchri&s;tian prevarication both
with God and men. Therefore</P>
<P>7. (And la&s;tly, to conclude) Whereas Mr. <HI>Prynne referres me to
the High Court of Parliament, either to crave their pardon, or to under|goe
their ju&s;tice, for my Anti-parliamentarie pa&s;&s;ages, &amp;c.</HI> I &s;hall reque&s;t
no other favour of this mo&s;t honourable Court, then that I may
&s;tand right and &s;treight in their opinions, and be re&s;pited from
cen&s;ure onely &s;o long, till my Accu&s;er &s;hall make good his charge
again&s;t me by &s;ufficient evidence and proofe; and &s;ub&s;tantially an|&s;wer
and refute this my Apologeticall plea. When the light of this
day of darkne&s;&s;e &s;hall dawne upon me, I &s;hall willingly &s;ubmit un|to
his demand, and either <HI>crave the Pardon of that Honourable and
High Court</HI> he &s;peaks of, or otherwi&s;e <HI>undergoe their ju&s;tice:</HI> in the
meane &s;ea&s;on I pre&s;ume he will &s;ub&s;cribe my Petition for a re|prieve,
as ju&s;t and equall. And if the re&s;ult of his more &s;erious
thoughts &s;hall be, to re&s;ume and pro&s;ecute the bill of endictment
which he hath preferr'd again&s;t me; my earne&s;t reque&s;t unto him
is, as well for his own ea&s;e and conveniencie, as mine, 1. That he
will not argue from pluralities, but pertinences of Scriptures; and
&s;hew how, and wherein every Text alledged, according to the ge|nuine
&s;en&s;e and rationall dependance of the words, &s;tands by him
in what he intends to prove from it. And 2. that he will not place
the &s;trength and confidence of his cau&s;e, either in humane Autho|rities,
humane practi&s;es, &s;tatutes or ordinances of men, excepting
onely &s;uch, who&s;e truth, ju&s;tice and equitie he &s;hall fir&s;t demon&s;trate
either from the word of God; and that not by Texts barely cited,
chapter and ver&s;e, though in never &s;uch abundance; but through|ly
argued, and examined upon the matter in que&s;tion; or els from
&s;ound principles of rea&s;on and equitie, managed in a cleare and ra|tionall
way, and &s;o drawne up to a faire compliance with the con|clu&s;ion,
&s;eeking te&s;timony and proofe from them. For otherwi&s;e,
what &s;ayings, doings, Lawes or Ordinances of men &s;oever &s;hall be
<PB N="99" REF="55">
produc'd or in&s;i&s;ted upon, for confirmation or proofe of any thing;
it will be &s;ufficient to An&s;wer, that men as wi&s;e, as ju&s;t, as vertuous
as they, have both &s;aid and done, things neither true nor meet to
be done; and have made Lawes and Statutes of no better con&s;titu|tion;
yea, and have been of a contrary opinion to Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> in
the particular que&s;tioned: which made <HI>Augu&s;tine</HI> often decline that
way of rea&s;oning, as we reade in his 48. Epi&s;tle, and el&s;ewhere.
Thirdly and la&s;tly, that he would put le&s;&s;e vinegar and gall into
his inke, and more wooll or cotton: or (in the Apo&s;tles words,
<HI>Eph.</HI> 4. 31.) that <HI>all bitterne&s;&s;e and evill &s;peaking be put away, and that
we follow the truth in love,</HI> and language that becometh Brethren.</P>
<P>This treble reque&s;t I make unto him with much earne&s;tne&s;&s;e and
importunitie upon the &s;uppo&s;ition afore&s;aid, becau&s;e I had much
rather yeeld, might I do it upon honourable and Chri&s;tian terms,
then to be put to take the field yet againe. As for any opinion held
by me, when once I perceive that it will not make knowledge, I am
ready to give the right hand of fellow&s;hip unto any man in ca&s;ting
it out as un&s;avoury &s;alt upon the dunghill. I never yet thought my
&s;elf (nor I hope ever &s;hall) &s;uch a debtor unto error, as to &s;acri|fice
my time, paines, occa&s;ions, credit, con&s;cience, upon the &s;ervice
of it. But unto Mr. <HI>Prynne</HI> I &s;hall willingly acknowledge my &s;elf a
debtor, if he will either acquit me of my crime by &s;ilence, or deli|ver
me from my error by his pen.</P>
<TRAILER>FINIS.</TRAILER>
</DIV1>
</BODY>
</TEXT>
</EEBO>
</ETS>
